PlaneShift
Gameplay => Guilds Forum => Topic started by: Durwyn on December 28, 2006, 10:25:31 pm
-
hello everyone. i need to know what you think about the word "Hell". i ask you this because Some GMs are thinking that hell has something to do with religion. Nevertheless i think this point of view is finished nowadays. We think that Hell = Violence or so. Dont you?
PLz answer to this. Amicaly Durwyn
-
Hey Durwyn,
I never connected the word "hell" with religion in PS. And I think in a role playing environment it's downright absurd to do so - if you want to connect it to something, it's death realm (at least that's my association). And no, "Death Realms Dwarves" just wouldn't sound right :devil:.
Please, dear GMs, don't be more Catholic than the Pope! (When has this expression ever fitted better, huh? ;))
Cheers,
- Finira -
-
To call the Death Realm "hell" is wrong. The word still has religious connotations, even if you personally do not see them. Hell has always meant a place of anguish and punishment, and the Death Realm, although dark, is not all about torment. It shouldn't be a big deal to avoid using this word, and I think many people would appreciate you separating these two concepts when you are roleplaying.
-
the Death Realm, although dark, is not all about torment.
lol, you try telling that to some of the new players who spend hours down there ;)
-
iagree with karyuu in that the word "hell" does have feelings of religion and torment.
i dont think its a strong connection, but in regards calling the death realm "hell" i dont think works at all. the death realm is the death realm.
-
If I'm reading things right here, then the following is my viewpoint.
All jokes aside, there is nothing in game that can be related to Hell, as it is thought of in real life. Therefore, a guild by the name Hells Dwarves is not within the setting of the game, therefore ooc, therefore not appropriate for use in game, therefore should be immediately changed.
With what has been made and revealed of the game's settings, there is no concept of hell. Therefore using that word as it is being used is completely OOC, and since the game is trying to limit the ooc stuff in game, it should not be used in game.
And not to bring up that topic again, but if people made a fuss over the word bugger, then I will imagine that they will be voicing quite a conern over the allowing of the word hell in game.
-
*rolls her eyes* I guess I'm just too old for this ... therefore, I'm going back to playing and having fun. Some people could do with taking some things a little less seriously, too, in my opinion. Narf.
-
You could always refer to heck, Hell's Dwarves could become Heck's Gecks. Kind of has a nice ring to it. Hell's Dwarves is just silly. Traditional Dwarves (if there are such things) do not go to hell when they die, if they have an afterlife it certainly isn't a Christian one. I suppose in fantasy all is fair if the context allows. It doesn't seem to apply here.
-
if they actually must change the name we could atleast help 'em find a sutable one, something similair
i may not be good with names but here's one atleast "dark dwarfs" simple but similair ;) aaand should be in the settings if i'm right... hopefully ;)
-
You could always use the words relegious meaning (tormenting fire) and get something with that. Though I must say that you can't force those guys to change the name when your own npc's use it.
-
You could always use the words relegious meaning (tormenting fire) and get something with that. Though I must say that you can't force those guys to change the name when your own npc's use it.
uhm what npc's use the name hell?
-
You could always use the words relegious meaning (tormenting fire) and get something with that. Though I must say that you can't force those guys to change the name when your own npc's use it.
uhm what npc's use the name hell?
If I remember right soemone in the bronze doors, one of polyuntris quests. I'll check my logs and edit my post
-
Hell does remind me of the religious "heaven & hell" but what I thought of before that when I saw the name "Hell's Dwarves" was the motorcycle band "Hell's Angels". I'm assuming that is the image you're going for with your guild but I do have to say that both of those are not so good for immersion into PS since they're both concepts that don't exist there.
To suggest a good name chance I'd have to know a whole lot more about your guild and it's background than I do .. so I won't try here.
-
You could always use the words relegious meaning (tormenting fire) and get something with that. Though I must say that you can't force those guys to change the name when your own npc's use it.
uhm what npc's use the name hell?
If I remember right soemone in the bronze doors, one of polyuntris quests. I'll check my logs and edit my post
grok: ah trasok made some good deals with......... HEY! What the hell!
from the trasok identification quest :)
-
Durwyn, once i tried to explain you whats wrong with your guild name, but after 3 attempts you was still taking about something else, and then you started dying XD. Anyway good you have broght this topic, so that you realised your guild name is wrong, as ooc ;)
-
A few guilds that , as Nikodemus put it, have 'Wrong' guild names:
- The Dragon Council
- Guardians of the Phoenix
- Plakkem Hverrjanor
- Nightshade Mercenaries
-
Is there a guild called Guardians of the Phoenix? Rings a vauge bell I think.
All jokes aside, there is nothing in game that can be related to Hell, as it is thought of in real life. Therefore, a guild by the name Hells Dwarves is not within the setting of the game, therefore ooc, therefore not appropriate for use in game, therefore should be immediately changed.
This applies to all the aforementioned guilds.
-
- Plakkem Hverrjanor
- Nightshade Mercenaries
Whats wrong with these? honetly.
As about dragon council, I wish them good luck in promoting their idea and redifining their story so that people won't be bugging them about dragons anymore. Like a simple name change or whatever, but this maybe isn't exactly a good idea to them. Anyway, i know they are tryng.
-
Hell's Dwarves...
Create a char called Hellios (or whatever you want!) as a character in Hell's Dwarves... and make out that Hell is an abbreviation of that... at least then you'll have new justification for the name. ;)
-
I may be mistaken but I dont recall seeing any mention of Nightshades in the settings:
Nightshade \Night"shade`\, n. [AS. nichtscadu.] (Bot.)
A common name of many species of the genus Solanum, given
esp. to the Solanum nigrum, or black nightshade, a low,
branching weed with small white flowers and black berries
reputed to be poisonous.
[1913 Webster]
Again please correct me if I am wrong, but is that not a foreign language?
[Edit]
Hell's Dwarves...
Create a char called Hellios (or whatever you want!) as a character in Hell's Dwarves... and make out that Hell is an abbreviation of that... at least then you'll have new justification for the name.
Sorry, thats not possible either:
Helios
n : (Greek mythology) ancient god of the sun; drove his chariot
across the sky each day; identified with Roman Sol
-
I don't think anyone will object if we move this to the guilds section, since it seems to be looking like thats what the topic is about. (and for those that do, well :P )
-
And does that now mean you cant moderate in Neko :P
[I believe this answers your question. --Neko]
[Edit]
Then the Moderators names at the top of the forum should be changed. Unless of course you are expected to show restraint and not moderate this forum.
In addition please dont Edit my posts when a PM would suffice.
-
Renaming a guild because it's name has "Hell" in it, is wrong.
That's too strict, and will lead to the destruction of this game.
People can ignore the hell, and automatically assume it's the DR.
We arn't stupid, and we shouldn't be treated like robots.....
/me sees the word hell, "OHHH DARN!!! I can't RP now... SHOOT, My roleplaying is all messed up"
If you don't like the name, don't join the guild, it doesn't hurt you.
Anyone who feels the name of the guild should change becaues it's a bit ooc, is being too extreme.
And we all know, we don't need extremeists populating yliakum, which will, as i said, lead to it's downfall.
~~Datruth
-
So if I made a guild that totally went against the settings... meh, Doesn't matter. Just don't join it? Why don't we let everyone interpret the settings in their own way. Good idea? No.
-
Renaming a guild because it's name has "Hell" in it, is wrong.
That's too strict, and will lead to the destruction of this game.
People can ignore the hell, and automatically assume it's the DR.
We arn't stupid, and we shouldn't be treated like robots.....
/me sees the word hell, "OHHH DARN!!! I can't RP now... SHOOT, My roleplaying is all messed up"
If you don't like the name, don't join the guild, it doesn't hurt you.
Anyone who feels the name of the guild should change becaues it's a bit ooc, is being too extreme.
And we all know, we don't need extremeists populating yliakum, which will, as i said, lead to it's downfall.
~~Datruth
I agree. For all those RP purists who dont like it: I suppose you never see it anyway because you presumably have labels turned off.
So if I made a guild that totally went against the settings... meh, Doesn't matter. Just don't join it? Why don't we let everyone interpret the settings in their own way. Good idea? No.
I dont think Datruth is saying anything goes is fine. I'm sure we would all be annoyed to see the '1337 Haxxors' guild running around. But some common sense should really be employed to see where something over steps the boundaries.
-
But what he is saying is that the lines should be redrawn to include things that are slightly OOC because people that have read the settings know they're wrong?
-
But what he is saying is that the lines should be redrawn to include things that are slightly OOC because people that have read the settings know they're wrong?
I dont think that the setting specifically preclude any form of a hell. They could just as easily say that the word 'Hell' in the dwarven native tounge means Death Realm.
To sum up. Hells Dwarves doesnt bother me although I would not have named my guild that way. I would also not join it. However '1337 Haxxors' would bother me. (Mainly because I cant stand leetspeak)
-
So if it was Knights of the Sun rather than Knights of the Crystal but sun was just another word for crystal that'd be fine? You really think so?
-
isnt it called 'Azure sun' by the races that remember the above ground anyway?
-
So if it was Knights of the Sun rather than Knights of the Crystal but sun was just another word for crystal that'd be fine? You really think so?
IMO it would be fine.
isnt it called 'Azure sun' by the races that remember the above ground anyway?
And yup, I believe so.
-
Renaming a guild because it's name has "Hell" in it, is wrong.
That's too strict, and will lead to the destruction of this game.
People can ignore the hell, and automatically assume it's the DR.
We arn't stupid, and we shouldn't be treated like robots.....
/me sees the word hell, "OHHH DARN!!! I can't RP now... SHOOT, My roleplaying is all messed up"
If you don't like the name, don't join the guild, it doesn't hurt you.
Anyone who feels the name of the guild should change becaues it's a bit ooc, is being too extreme.
And we all know, we don't need extremeists populating yliakum, which will, as i said, lead to it's downfall.
~~Datruth
Just because you name yourself Datruth doesn't mean that whatever babble comes out of your mouth is how it should be, my friend. If you want to state your opinion, fine but if you state it as the one and only option you're ruffling my feathers .. and I'm sure I'm not alone there. Opinions differ but they're all still opinions since we're all still players and none of us have the final word, with the exception of Karyuu and Neko.
*just had the urge to post that and won't go into the discussion any further since he already stated his opinion*
-
*just had the urge to post that and won't go into the discussion any further since he already stated his opinion*
Which is exactly what it was, his opinion. Just because he doesnt place 'IMO' or similar before every post doesnt mean he is saying that what he claims is 'Gospel'.
none of us have the final word, with the exception of Karyuu and Neko.
And even when they do say things they can be just as wrong as anyone else and it is still only an opinion.... IMO :P
-
An opinion of your superior is also called an order sometimes ;)
-
An opinion of your superior is also called an order sometimes ;)
Its getting a little off topic now but if someone tries to order me to do something I may take it on board as a suggestion.
And I personally dont like the word superior as it not only implies but implicitly says that someone is better than another.
-
I don't think anyone is going extreme about the hell word. its ooc and there is no doubt about it. The decision to change the name is up to GMs anyway, so going extreme for me wouldn't be healthy ;P
What i do instead is treat this guild members without respect in the best case. Since they don't want to RP, i don't know what they are looking in PS in-game.
-
I do believe this is leading to a double standard, as some OOC names are acceptable while others are not. It is difficult to say with certainty what really is in compliance of the settings do to the fact that the setting is not described in enough detailed to list everything. If there was a complete PS encyclopedia things would be much simpler.
Do we have a list and description for every life form in Yliakum?
Do we have a list of every raw material?
Do we have a list of all inventions?
These three questions alone create a great amount of uncertainty. Some might say ‘just use common sense’, common to what? I would ask. There are obvious items we know are impossible to exist like cars and computers (well at least as we know them), but there are many things we don’t know. Do we have giraffes or monkeys? Tadpoles? Snapping turtles? What about sharks or whales?
Yliakum Banking Network – do we know what banks are?
The Vespers of Laanx – do we know what Vespers are?
The Royal House of Purrty – do we know what royalty is? What is Purrty?
The Sheeple Foundation – What is a Sheeple?
The Imperial Scholars – Do we know what a scholar is?
Scholar word origin: Middle English scoler, from Old French escoler and from Old English scolere, both from Medieval Latin scholāris, from Late Latin, of a school, from Latin scola, schola, school.
The Exemplar Seneschal – Exemplar: The Exemplars is a fictional group appearing in the Marvel Comics universe. It was made up of eight humans -- Bedlam, Carnivore, Conquest, Decay, Inferno, Juggernaut, Stonecutter and Tempest -- who were empowered by the Octessence. Seneschal (http://www.answers.com/Seneschal)
Elemental Light - Elemental can refer to:
Elemental, a creature formed entirely of one of the classical elements in mysticism, alchemy, mythology and modern fantasy fiction; for the usage of elementals in fiction, see elementals in fiction
Elemental (BattleTech), a type of power armor used by the Clans (BattleTech)
Elementals (comics), a superhero comic book published by Comico Comics
Elemental (Tears for Fears album), a 1993 album by British pop band Tears for Fears
Elemental (music group), a Croatian hip-hop group
Elemental (Loreena McKennitt album), a 1985 album by Canadian singer and harpist Loreena McKennitt
Elemental, a species in the Mortal Kombat game universe
Elemental (The Chronicles of Riddick), a fictional race that evolved from humans in the film The Chronicles of Riddick
Elemental (Dungeons & Dragons), a type of creature from the role-playing game
Elementals (Crash Bandicoot), a group of renegade masks from the video game Crash Bandicoot: The Wrath of Cortex
As you can see we could pick apart almost every guild name and find a reason to exclude it. Is it the people behind the name that makes it acceptable or not, or is it the name itself?
In regards to ‘Hell’, I don’t think it belongs, but that is only my opinion. There are many others I don’t think belong either but others do. I guess it comes down to imagination, are we willing to look past the real world definitions and accept the words with new meanings as they are presented to us.
This post is not meant to offend anyone or single anyone guild out, I am only playing devils advocate.
Happy Holidays
-
Elemental (BattleTech), a type of power armor used by the Clans (BattleTech)
Thats the one we were aiming at in Elemental Light....
.... Just waiting until you are lulled into a false sense of security then we will Pwn you in our power armor lol :P
-
There is much in common with the real world and there are also many differencies. When taking a name or speaking about something, it is best to excuide all what is in RL but not in PS.
But this is causing many problems, because often we don't know what and how to say a thing. We don't have PS encyclopedia which would fill all the holes and the setting known to us is very lacking. But even if it was known, its like learning new language. It may be hard, is long and thus we can't except new people to know everyting at once. But also those people shouldn't create a guild or whole communities without knowing first the setting, because one day they may realise this doesn't fit the seting and then we have scream and pain...
But someone people just don't care, but even if, they are also needed in PS. I only don't like them being suprised about something nobody care about in other games except PS and few other games.
-
Maybe Knights of the Crystal was a bad example but I think you understand what I mean. I think though that it is safe to assume that we know the meaning of words regardless of their origins too because if they were excluded because they come from rl we'd not be able to speak. Banks and Scholars are, I'd say, acceptable. Granted the lore is a little bare at the minute but do we really need more for our guilds? There are plenty of guilds that do just fine within the settings.
Edit: What exactly does this guild have to do with "Hell" or the death Realm anyway?
-
Edit: What exactly does this guild have to do with "Hell" or the death Realm anyway?
That would be where my argument would fall apart. When I 1st saw them my initial thought was, 'There is a guild that thought 'Hell's Angels' sounded cool so they would alter it for their guild name'. And when I say initial thought, what I mean is the only one I had and the one that still is my current thought ::|
-
And while on the topic of guild names, and reasons for, do Elemental Light have an IC reason for the name yet?
-
Yup, we thought it sounded cool... By that I mean our characters thought it was cool :P
Seeing as you said that, does the Dark Empire have an IC reason for its name? who is your Emperor?
-
We had an Emperess but she left. Right now Chancellor Sangwa has taken over her duties till the time when a new Emperor is crowned.
-
And a reason for the name? :P
-
Because it is there for 4 years and there is no PS with no Dark Empire, like there is no PS without Kada-Els tavern ;P
Although i was always wondering why empire, since there was never loads of members i gues. But what can we except anyway, there are no ~10 000 members guilds.
-
I guess hell is ooc, but I'm seeing a slow progression in the community. Slowly going towards being rp nazis :innocent:
-
This thread shouldn't be here.
Anyway, why is France called France? I have no idea. The Dark Empire has been called Dark Empire because the first person of the first imperial line decreed its name would be so. Maybe she was fond of the Dark way. Maybe Dark stands for a non-english word that by coincidence is the same as the english one. Maybe its Dark because it came in a shady era. Or maybe as a symbol of what's there before the dawn. Who knows.
And where are the roleplay Nazis? These conflicting words are bound to appear, not because we have roleplay nazis, but because our roleplay setting is not complete.
I wouldn't consider hell just a religious thing. It might have begun as a relligious concept, but currently we attribute many meanings to it. Violence not accuretly being one of them. Rather a place/state of deep misery. I'd ban the usuage of the word Hell in its religious sense though. So no Giants of Hell, no Hell Spawns, no Hell Reapers, nothing coming from the religious, fictonal (as far as my own beliefs are concerned) plane of hell.
-
I only have one little thing to respond to:
Again please correct me if I am wrong, but is that not a foreign language?
Only if Stonebreaker (Pel Perrakithor) (http://pswiki.xordan.com/index.php/Stonebreaker_Language) is considered a foreign language.
As some are already aware, I have been an avid student of Arka's Stonebreaker language for about 11 months now and even chose a Pel Perrakithor name for the guild that was handed down to me.
'Plakkem' - A conceptual place or space (as opposed to a concrete physical place)
'Hverrjan' (everyone), +'or' (genitive case of a noun that means 'of' and implies 'ownership' or 'belonging to')
Pel Perrakithor nouns (http://pswiki.xordan.com/index.php/Stonebreaker_Language/Grammar/Nouns)
In my opinion, this name is more 'in settings' than the German language name that the guild had before it was given to me.
The difference with "made-up" languages is that they are specific to this game and to the setting, not influenced by OOC nationalities.
In developing Stonebreaker I have always made it clear that this is not a dialect of Dwarfish, but a wholly new language, devised many generations ago to enable the Stonebreakers to trade with other races without disclosing the Dwarfish language (which is secret anyway).
-
Well, I do realise that in the distant past the strictess of IC names wasnt as bad as it is currently, But I think the explanation 'because it always has been' is a bad one Nikodemus. I have no issues if no-one has any idea why it is named such, I presume that the original leader just liked the name. Same as Elemental Light.
@Einnol ahhh, I had no idea thats where the name came from, but seeing as we are on the subject of OOC-ness: isnt it OOC to use runes as a character system? im no expert on runic lettering and would never claim to be but i certainly recognise a few of them.
(http://pswiki.xordan.com/images/9/9d/AAA.jpg)(http://pswiki.xordan.com/images/7/73/MMM.jpg)(http://pswiki.xordan.com/images/d/d9/TTT.jpg)
-
So if I made a guild that totally went against the settings... meh, Doesn't matter. Just don't join it? Why don't we let everyone interpret the settings in their own way. Good idea? No.
If it goes against the settings, and that is clearly defined, such as, "The Microsoft Group", Then i agree that guild should not exist.
But when things get more gray such as with the word, "Hell", there is no clear distinction that this breaks the Settings.
The first thing i think of, when i hear hell, in P.S, is the Death realm.
We are in the gray area
There is no definite answer currently,
THEREFORE, I feel it's o.k to allow that word, people will in general understand the name of the guild, no one's R.P will be compromised.
I hope that was all clear my friend Parallo :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But what he is saying is that the lines should be redrawn to include things that are slightly OOC because people that have read the settings know they're wrong?
I love how you think, that's what i'm saying, it's marvelous, let me clarify my point for you.
YOU feel, Hell is OOC, Out of Character.
Would you bet your life on it?
Probably not, because i'm betting there is a good chance, Talad might say that the word Hell exists in Ylaikum.
In that case, you would die, having bet your life.
Now, do the settings, EXPLICITLY say Hell is wrong? No
So do we know it's, OOC? NO, Apparantly you do though.
SO i feel, if situations like this occur, AND we are in gray area, AND it ruins no one's r.p, IT IS o.k.
In this case, i feel it's o.k, no ones r.p is ruined, and the word hell is in the Grey area, just as the word Empire might be in the gray area.
I never read the word empire in the settings? But i'm nearly 100% sure it's o.k, just as i am with the word Hell.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But what he is saying is that the lines should be redrawn to include things that are slightly OOC because people that have read the settings know they're wrong?
I dont think that the setting specifically preclude any form of a hell. They could just as easily say that the word 'Hell' in the dwarven native tounge means Death Realm.
To sum up. Hells Dwarves doesnt bother me although I would not have named my guild that way. I would also not join it. However '1337 Haxxors' would bother me. (Mainly because I cant stand leetspeak)
Exactly my friend Idoru, and thank you for all your remarks. :D
It is rationally possible to believe that the word HELL could be used in Ylaikum, and there is no definitive PROOF that it is forbidden.
It's grey area.
And it doesnt' bother anyone's R.P.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So if it was Knights of the Sun rather than Knights of the Crystal but sun was just another word for crystal that'd be fine? You really think so?
isnt it called 'Azure sun' by the races that remember the above ground anyway?
Someone needs to re read the settings, Thank you for pointing that out Narure.
I think then, that Parallo, would not be a good candidate, for deciding what is OOC or IC, when it comes to the word Hell.
So he should stop referring to the word, "hell" as being OOC because from where i stand, that hasn't been decided yet.
I'd gladly invite Talad to this conversation, his wisdom would clear all this up for us.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
An opinion of your superior is also called an order sometimes ;)
Were you implying that Neko and Karyuu, are our superiours because they are moderators?
A moderator helps keep a forum in good shape... not necessarily make orders.
If you were to ask them whether they were your superiors, they would surely say no.
If there are any superiors out there, it would be Talad and a good portion to Venge as well.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't think anyone is going extreme about the hell word. its ooc and there is no doubt about it. The decision to change the name is up to GMs anyway, so going extreme for me wouldn't be healthy ;P
What i do instead is treat this guild members without respect in the best case. Since they don't want to RP, i don't know what they are looking in PS in-game.
I wish there was no doubt about it, the thing is, there are doubts, clear ones.
And i enjoy your point Nikodemus, don't let a few names that are in the grey area bother you, just don't speak to them if you don't want to.
And if they bother you, tell a gm and they will help you right away.
All and all great post nikodemus.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
LARAGORN's Post
insert here
This is exactly the evidence i can show to everyone.
Laragorn once again has moved the thread by showing us that, THIS IS GREY.
We can't be sure it's ooc, anyone saying it is doesn't know 100%.
There is too much ambiguity and if we start dissecting names of guilds, we'll eventually dissect nearly all of them.
We cannot be extreme in our decisions, we do not need RP extremists, you've seen what they have done to this game and how they cause strife.
This name is put into question, and you can't say it's IC or OOC fully, with full conviction.
LARAGORN has CLEARLY proven this with his remarkable post, thank you for that my friend.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
With this i want to lay down some common ground.
We are in a grey area, those who hold to certainty, need to let go of some of it, and read Laragorn's post.
Do we really start dissecting names, even those that are in the grey?
Shouldn't we just stick with those that we know violate the settings?
DO WE KNOW all the settings? The answer atleast to that one, is no, we don't, Only Talad does truely.
What shouldn't we do? Let me put, that this is my opinion, so Zan doesn't attack me.
We shouldn't start changing guild names, when we are soo uncertain about soo many things.
What should we do? More research, allow a little more flexability, and make sure that no one's R.P is comprimised.
Allowing the Hell's Dwarvs to live, will not comprimise ANYone's R.P, and as Nikodemous pointed out, you could just as easily ignore them.
BUT re naming the guild, comprimises, ALL their members roleplaying, it will have a huge effect on them, and some of them will get angry.
If we are really that unsure....Should we be making these decisions?
So rashly?
Especially when Laragorn clearly showed, that with the loss of the word HELL would be a loss for alot of guilds?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I say, in this case, we need to learn not to be extreme.
As long as we can all HAVE FUN and Roleplay properly, WITHIN the Settings that are DEFINED, not grey, then we will live happy.
LEAVE the grey stuff to Talad, he'll guide the way, as our captain.
And don't start Picking apart guild's name, just think of how much time it took to name thier guild and the honor they get from it.
If the name violates the settings, KILL it, like, "The microsoft Group".
If it doesn't and it's grey, and we are uncertain, let it be, and let Talad decide.
My theme:
Learn to work together, not tear each other apart.
One is the result of Mercy, the other is the result of Hate.
~~Datruth
[Removal of nearly flamatory remarks that could possibly cause thread to degrade into childless name calling. --Neko]
-
Datruth, it is nice to see that your pride is rivaled only by your victim complex.
In other news.
A quick reply because 1, I'm lazy and 2, .... I'm sure there is a second reason somewhere.
Yes, the Moderators should be looked upon as our superiors, just like police men, they've got a job to do, let them do it.
Hell itself OOC, but if they are refering to the Death Realm when they say it and not actual hell. Then I see no problem with it.
and
I never read the word empire in the settings? But i'm nearly 100% sure it's o.k, just as i am with the word Hell.
That's the worst comparison I've read in a while.
I never saw the words "bright pink" in the setting either. Big whoop.
Hell is a proper noun, atleast, the Hell that is being argued is.
[Post edited to remove quoted text and comments to quoted text that was removed from a previous post as it doesn't apply to the thread any longer and to prevent the thread degrading into a mindless name calling state. --Neko]
-
Datruth, it is nice to see that your pride is rivaled only by your victim complex.
Hi there :), it appears i'm the only one allowed to be attacked.
I should rename myself, "The P.S Forums Punching back of truth" lol :thumbup:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's the worst comparison I've read in a while.
I never saw the words "bright pink" in the setting either. Big whoop.
I've never seen the color Pink in Ylaikum actually, so for all we know, Pink might not exist. This is yliakum, not earth.
Try a better analogy.
And just because i grouped together the words Hell and Empire,
You would feel that possibly the word Platoon might exist in ylaikum, or commander?
Weren't those words created way after our settings?
Can we be sure the word Empire existed, Before the word Hell?
It's grey area, go read laragorns post.
~~Datruth
[Post edited to remove remarks that could lead thread into a mindless name calling state. --Neko]
-
Datruth, it is nice to see that your pride is rivaled only by your victim complex.
Hi there :), it appears i'm the only one allowed to be attacked.
I should rename myself, "The P.S Forums Punching back of truth" lol :thumbup:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I've attacked many people, Datruth, don't flatter yourself.
Ask Zanzibar :P
That's the worst comparison I've read in a while.
I never saw the words "bright pink" in the setting either. Big whoop.
I've never seen the color Pink in Ylaikum actually, so for all we know, Pink might not exist. This is yliakum, not earth.
Try a better analogy.
And just because i grouped together the words Hell and Empire,
You would feel that possibly the word Platoon might exist in ylaikum, or commander?
Weren't those words created way after our settings?
Can we be sure the word Empire existed, Before the word Hell?
It's grey area, go read laragorns post.
~~Datruth
Alright, let's look at it this way.
A proper noun describes something definite.
Empire, platoon and commander, do not.
Platoon is commonly associated with modern day military and not so much with the warfare that went on during our equivalent to Planeshift's setting. So it may be disliked by many.
Commander and empire are both concepts when you get down to it.
Hmm, my english is taking a beating. I'm not used to explaining stuff to somebody too proud to understand.
[Post edited to remove quoted text and comments to quoted text that was removed from a previous post as it doesn't apply to the thread any longer and to prevent the thread degrading into a mindless name calling state. --Neko]
-
The word Hell could not possibly exist as the Death Realm as the Death Realm is where all dead people go (Duh) where as hell is, as Nurahk put it, a concept that we know doesn't exist in Yliakum. Hell is the opposite to heaven. A place appearenty filled with fire and brimstone and all that. Its the same as saying "I've traveled far over Earth." when you mean "I've traveled far over Yliakum and the stone labyrinths."
Datruth, I truely do wish we didn't have such different time zones so that I could see what warrented the change to your posts. I've said it before: PM me if you wish to disscuss our differences. The forums are not the place for that.
-
As for Hell and the DR, it's not that the DR is like hell.
No one is saying that.
But when you say hell in Yliakum, you think Dr.
It's just something that comes after hell, no one is saying, Hey, these dwarves go and torture and hold you for eternity.
More like these Dwarves come from the Death realm, or have an affiliation with the Death realm.
No one here is saying the DR is like Hell, it's that Hell can be easily replaced, by the word DR in yliakum.
And anyone who would like the full transcript of my post, may have it, all you need to do is ask, you can then judge for yourself if any flaming took place.
~~Datruth
[Post edited to remove remarks about Moderator actions. The open forum is not the appropriate place for that. If you have a problem with one of our moderator's actions, send a PM or email to a forum admin and they will review the issue and decide on an appropriate action. --Neko]
-
hells dwarves could easily change their history as elvi said make a dwarf named hellios, or just include a dwarf named hell in the guildhistory and say that he was a religious leader to some and all who wants to follow his principles could join the guild.
I see hell used awfully lot IC too, also by some who are against the name in here, I don't want to mention any name though.
As for RP extremists going against that guild name, I am one myself and I see no problem in it as I just think of a bunch of dwarves comming from some place with lot's of torment and such, yes it's ooc but there really isn't anything in the settings right now which could be used, and since people (and npc's) use hell why not use it in a guildname anyway? (Yes I know that my opinion comes from relegion blah blah blah, but these dwarves could believe that hell was a place of torment and pain ;), just like another guild who thought there was some god, only thought didn't claim it ooc'ly)
-
But when you say hell in Yliakum, you think Dr.
And when you say "Earth," you think of "Yliakum." That doesn't mean that it's the proper term, still. If you can easily replace it with "DR," why not do just that instead of having a gray issue at all?
[Post edited to remove quoted text and comments to quoted text that was removed from a previous post as it doesn't apply to the thread any longer. --Neko]
-
But when you say hell in Yliakum, you think Dr.
And when you say "Earth," you think of "Yliakum." That doesn't mean that it's the proper term, still. If you can easily replace it with "DR," why not do just that instead of having a gray issue at all?
A very easy statment to make and in a way right on the money, but.....
Will it be just as easy for all the other guilds with gray areas in regards to their names?
senario... A group of folks whom where once surface dwellers brought with them on their journey to Yliakum A belief almost lost. ...Insert amazing intro here......they believed that some folks would go to a place called hell if they were evil......... Inset explanation of story being all but lost............ Insert finding of lost scrolls describing this place called hell.............. new believers in this place called hell and believe it to be the Death Realm. yadda yadda yadda
-
That scenario doesn't sound so bad, but where would you personally draw the line? If that same group of surface dwellers brought with them a story about heaven and hell, would that be too much? What if they started a belief on a heaven, hell, and a born-of-god-and-mortal savior? If you let in one thing, what kind of slippery slope are you setting up, you know..? (http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/8841/hmmmqo2.gif) Then you get more people complaining "They didn't have to change, why do we?"
I'm not posting here to give you guys any rules, but just to share my opinion. I don't demand that people stop using "hell," but I don't like it either, and if I repeatedly see it used in place of "Death Realm," I'll throw in a small comment and move on - because I don't feel that it's one of the better ideas out there.
-
A quick response, as I have to go to work soon.....
My only beef with using hell is that I seem to remember a discussion that came up over the removal of another word from the game as someone, sometime, somewhere, but not yet, could take offense to it.
Guess what, someone, sometime, somewhere, but not yet, could take offense to seeing hell in a guild name. I'm just trying to suggest we follow precedent here, as that other word was changed for something nicer, so following that, this one should be changed as well.
Personally, it doesn't bother me one little bit, if there was an IC reason for it, which none has been given yet. In fact, I havent even seen a post from one of the members in the guild here yet, which makes me believe, that there is no real reason for the name other than "it sounded cool, like the biker gang hell's angels". Until I see a post from a member of that guild, that's what I'll have to believe.
-
Bugger and hell are not even in the same league IMO. (sorry if using either word caused any offence to those delicate members of this forum)
It ends up being a very slippery slope if we remove every thing that could possibly cause any kind of offense to anyone anywhere.
Do we end up changing the models of female characters so they cover their hair or wear hijabs or niqabs so we dont offend some muslims?
Stop male players from having short hair so we dont offend some Sikhs?
Let same sex characters marry (or have civil partnerships) so as not to offend homosexual people?
You cant possily avoid offending every one in the world.
As I said in the thread about the NPC who used the word bugger 'Just use common sense'.
I also dont recall whether I raised the terms 'Damn' and 'Dammit' in that thread or in a PM but that should be banned aswell if it is the case that we should neuter this game completely.
-
Well said, Idoru. Start doing this for one or two offended people and pretty soon you have to do it for everybody. And there is no way to prevent everybody from being offended at something.
-
I'm not sure I follow the reason for using the word "Hell" in a guild name being considered OOC. Its a word in the English language. Its not a proper noun. I can use a ton of other words in the English language as much as is deemed appropriate and is not a restricted curse word. In fact despite reading all the rules about guild and character names I"m not sure I even understand where the lines are drawn. A long while ago a person used the name Eifel as his character name. His name got renamed for being too similar to Eiffel which is the name of an architect who has a tower bearing his namesake. It wasn't even spelled the same, and the tower was just named after a person. If there were a famous tower called the John Tower would I be forbidden to use the name John in game? These things are not clearly defined. The grey areas persist in what valid English language words are IC and which are OOC. Hell as a word in the English language is NOT just a noun, and even as a noun its true meaning that is often conceived as a place of torture in religion is only a portion of the meaning. In fact I would assume the word hell is probably used more as an interjection - like "What the hell is that thing? A tefusang??" I don't think anyone would be slaughtered for OOC discourse with an exclamation like that. "Lets beat the hell out of this Ulbernaught!" Once again valid in PS terms as far as I'm concerned. Rules would get very icky if we started saying that it was ok to use the word hell in battle or to describe a situation but OOC to use in a guild name based on the part of speech in which it was used.
A better question is whether or not the general PS populous would find it offensive, and whether or not its a word that could be stated at any time. As far as I'm concerned if you're allowed to say it in game you're allowed to use it in your guild title.
/rant
-
Adding on to what Induane said(i read his post wrong the first time lol):
If you need convincing, and you're still on the fence, do this and see if it changes your opinion.
1) Read Laragorns post, "Hell is not OOC or IC, It's Grey area and it's still a toss up, up to Talad to decide"
"Should we put all guilds names into speculation, wouldn't most fail?"
2) Read my post "Do you really want to destroy a guild's name and Ruin their RP when their name isn't ruining your RP at all"
3) Read Idoru's Post, "Getting rid of offending things would mean to remove nearly everything"
4) Read Peacer's "Protending the Guild leader's name was Hell, allowing the Guild to remain IC"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here's what i do know:
1) Hell isn't definitevly OOC or IC, it's grey area.
2) Hell will not ruin most peoples Rpes.
3) Working together as a community is better than Ruining each other's RP trying to rip each other apart.
~~Datruth
[Final warning. The open forums are not the place for discussion of actions taken by the moderation staff. Again, if you disaggree with actions taken by the moderation staff, send a PM or email to an admin detailing your concerns, and they will take action they deem to be appropriate. Next violation I see from you, I will reconmend to our admins you be temporarily removed of your posting abilities. Again, this is your final warning. --Neko]
[Your name wasn't even mentioned in this post, i didn't even reference to anything you said.
What are you smoking neko?]
~~Datruth
-
Could I start a guild of cat people called the "Expectorating Enkidukai" who go around spitting on everyone and everything? Should I be allowed to? Guilds are in the game due to popular demand but there is no reason they have to be allowed at all. It would be hard to prevent people from forming loose associations but the system does not have to encourage them at all.
-
Hell?
1. Who the hell gets offended by the word 'hell'? You'd hafta be one hell of a prude...
2. Hell is a grey area. Most games have 'Hellfire' spells and 'Hellhounds' and 'Hellblades' without even thinking about it. It's just another word for 'chaos' or 'evil power'.
3. Like others have said, if your gripe is that Hell doesn't exist in Planeshift and thusly shouldn't be a word because nobody had to refer to it in Yliakum's history, then technically nobody should speak English, because the English never existed in Yliakum's history...
-
Most games have 'Hellfire' spells and 'Hellhounds' and 'Hellblades' and don't deserve to be called RP.
But reading Induane post, I came to a conclussion:
The hell is used in way too many various ways to be banned, although we need to realise what does it mean in PS. The best way is to treat it as synonym of deatch realm. But then we need to realize few things. No things hell fires, since DR is dark and cold place, rather than hot. No hellhounds in the form you imagine them (red skin, burning eyes and so on). Hellblade won't burn or be cold, but rather deadly cold.
And changing a meaning or banning the word hell is not the same as banning the whole languange. Language is a tool of communication and when needed different words are created. Example: Azure Sun. There is no such thing in RL, but it is english language.
-
If I called a guild "Heaven's Ylians" would you automaticly think of the Death Realm? Would it be acceptable to use the word heaven even though it definitevly doesn't exist in Yliakum?
-
We used to say it's a heaven in my mouth (or something like that) while eating something really good. In this context heaven means something really tasty. We should realise which meanings are possible i Yliakum and when it obviously doesn't fit and so we should not make for example guild names refering to the wrong meaning.
Of course the perfect situation would be if we had in Yliakum its own smiliarities, like using death realm words without meaning the death realm instead, like we do it with the word hell. I hope you see what i mean. But 99.9% of people aren't going to learn everything thiis. But nontheles we should remember about PS setting al the time.
Its like you would tell in RL to a thief w ho is pointing a gun towards you: Please don't kill me, i don't want end in the Death Realm.
Death Realm, wtf is that?
-
You could always use the words relegious meaning (tormenting fire) and get something with that. Though I must say that you can't force those guys to change the name when your own npc's use it.
uhm what npc's use the name hell?
Grok Idon tells you: Ah, *****, I made some good deals with ***. Ok, I will tr
y my best to understand the nature of this sword. [Grok rubs the top of a opale
ring wear in his left hand ... The sword starts to tremble and unexpectedly esca
pes his hands and attacks him! After the slash the sword drops to the ground, no
t moving anymore]. HEY! What the hell! The sword attacked me! It seems to have a
will on its own! Was some trick done by you?
Grok Idon uses the word "hell". I replaced a pronoun and a name with asterisks in an attempt to keep this quote from becoming a spoiler.
-
I think you missed the reason behind my 'Heaven's Ylians' example. Its obviously a dreadful guild name. Heaven and hell are part of the same idea. Saying Hell is okay but heaven is not is like saying that You can have Yin but not Yang. Identifing Hell as the Death Realm is awful reasoning. Its taking a part of PS and giving it a name from RL. It is very, very much along the same lines as calling a Tria a Dollar. Would a guild called 'Nirvana'a Dermorians' be okay? Hells dwarves is the same idea.
-
If I called a guild "Heaven's Ylians" would you automaticly think of the Death Realm? Would it be acceptable to use the word heaven even though it definitevly doesn't exist in Yliakum?
You don't know what does or does not exist definitevely in Ylaikum, we discussed this already, read laragorns post.
As for whether or not it exists in game, as mentioned above, it is used by an NPC, so i can say the phrase does exist.
I think you missed the reason behind my 'Heaven's Ylians' example. Its obviously a dreadful guild name. Heaven and hell are part of the same idea. Saying Hell is okay but heaven is not is like saying that You can have Yin but not Yang. Identifing Hell as the Death Realm is awful reasoning. Its taking a part of PS and giving it a name from RL. It is very, very much along the same lines as calling a Tria a Dollar. Would a guild called 'Nirvana'a Dermorians' be okay? Hells dwarves is the same idea.
Hells dwarves... is the same as nirvana's dermorians..... really? In what world?
Identifing Hell as the Death Realm is awful reasoning.
When a person uses that word, the DR automatically comes to mind.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Even if all these arguments are fruitless, and you still don't like them.
Even if you don't see that it's in the grey area.
Even if you feel it's o.k to Ruin that guilds RP because they arn't ruining yours.
The name still works, read Peacers post.
What peacer basically suggested was making the founding father of the guild a man named Hell, and that he lead a group that later became their guild.
No matter what, this guild name will be o.k.
Even if we scrap out all the grey.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So again, it's your choice, feel free to argue all you want about how this guild's name NEEDS to be scrapped.
But know, one day, your guild name will be scrapped as well, if we keep picking away at each other.
My solution: If it doesn't break people's Roleplaying and it isn't specifically vulgar, and the average person is fine with it, you let it remain.
It's either that, or define the settings perfectly, so we have no more grey area, or atleast not these huge gaps we have now.
~~Datruth
-
Its not gray. Hell does not exist in Yliakum. Neither does heaven. The Death Realm does and it has none of the charictaristics of either. Using your logic in the situation if we don't know that hell doesn't exist in Yliakum how do we know Microsoft doesn't exist in Yliakum?
Edit: Picking apart their RP? I invite the guild leader himself to give an RP reason for the name of his guild. I remember on one occasion said person wanted to form an alliance with the Dark Empire because the name sounded cool. That single instance should speak for itself.
-
/me sighs
Ok, say it with me people ...... deeeeeeeeath Reaaaaaaalm. Again D.E.A.T.H ... R.E.A.L.M. That is what it is called. This is a level in a game that is suppose to not relate to the real world. It is a place in which you are sent to the moment when you die or join the game for the first time. Though it is easy to compare RL hell to the DR, it wasn't made to be the same or even compared I am sure. It also wasn't created for you all to argue over because this is a place in which we are supposed to not live in the boundaries of RL but use our imaginations. Comparing the DR to Hell is not doing that. Think about it.
As for quibbles with in game guild names .... I mean seriously does seeing "hell or heaven" in a guild name really ruin role-play? I know it doesn't for me because I don't let it. If I don't like something in planeshift I have choices to make for my character.
(1) Either I don't interact with the guild and it's role-plays.
(2) I accept it and move on.
(3) Contact a GM or Dev and explain my issue and reasons why it bothers me.
If the Gm's haven't changed it then it is safe to assume that it isn't going to be changed (Or maybe no one petitioned it so it wasn't a huge concern). I do admit that someone using the word "hell or heaven" in their guild name is lacking originality and it also makes me wonder how much thought was put into this guild. Still the guild name doesn't really matter. It is the guild quality that we so despreatly needing in planeshift. If this guild proceeds to accomplish some sort of structure then really that is great. To restrict every name that maybe obvious in the RL will cripple the one thing we as players value and that is the freedom to create in planeshift.
-
They are ruining their own RP and noone elses. Naming it something that is in RL and not in PS is making any RP rhat that is involved in invalid.
-
Perhaps you all have been playing too long to remember or you haven't had the thought after all ... but when I landed in DR for the first time I didn't know it was called Death Realm, and my first thought (quite naturally I think) was: oh. I'm in hell. No characteristics of "real world hell" (not that there is such a thing)? Oh, please.
Oh, and I think lots of red and black indicate warm (if not hot), not cold.
Or maybe I'm just different. I can live with that.
*shrugs*
- Finira -
-
Well my first thought when I saw the Ylian was that he is a Homo Sapien. Does that mean its IC to call them that?
-
RPNRP for the win!!!!
-
They are ruining their own RP and noone elses. Naming it something that is in RL and not in PS is making any RP rhat that is involved in invalid.
Ah screw being 'valid'. If you're having the most fun you've ever had in an RP, and you find out a few months ago one of the characters who used to be involved in the RP accidentally used the world 'Hell' instead of 'Death Realm', would you really put everyone else involved in the RP on your ignore list and pretend it never happened?
Or worse yet, would you report an RP that other people were having a lot of fun in to a GM, for the same stupid reason?
If your answer is yes, then I'm afraid you're on the verge of being mentally unstable. Games are about having fun by temporarily forgetting reality. One trying hard to maintain and preserve their 'virtual reality' at the expense of their own enjoyment is a classic symptom of Dissociative Reality Syndrome (or something like that), and is usually caused by a patient being traumatised or disenchanted with his/her life to the point where he/she is trying to escape it via entertainment, either from an external or internal source. (Kinda like those cheesy episodes they always have where the main character wakes up to find that everything that happened in the series up to that point was in their head. Except realer, and sadder...)
(P.S. Sorry for the psychobabble. And that wasn't exclusively directed at Parallo. He seems pretty down-to-earth really ;) )
-
That could be true were it not for the fact that the only reason I speak of valid role plays is that I enjoy them. So I'm striving for my own enjoyment and not the expence of one. And I don't mean used the word instead of the death realm. There are numerous things that can make an rp invalid. Check out the post I made on Monism and Duelism. It has an example of a terribly invalid rp.
-
Hum, I'm sure Parallo wouldn't mind roleplaying with a person who once said Hell. Obviously, he'd stop doing so if that person said it came from Hell. Why can't they be the Death Realm's Dwarves? Or better: Death's Dwarves or Dwarves of Doom. Those names are as silly as Hells Dwarves. Maybe even a bit less.
Would diabolis perceive the Death Realm as a Hell? Their homeland is a real hell. I bet Death Realm is nothing to them... besides extremely boring and dark.
"Or worse yet, would you report an RP that other people were having a lot of fun in to a GM, for the same stupid reason?"
Reporting is no crime. I would do it if I really felt that way. And if the GM agreed, it was his fault the fun ended, not mine for being a conscious player and doing what is right.
Nothing to do with any mental disability, as you can see.
And you're right somewhere. It is a game. And games have rules, to ensure everyone makes the best of it. I have lots of fun playing games as they are. I don't make up rules when I'm playing cards, even if it would benefit me and probably make me laugh. Why? Because my partners would frown at me, since they wouldn't find it as funny.
Doesn't mean I don't do it occasionally, when I'm feeling goofy.
And a late thank you for Nikodemus, for the nice compliment. :P
-
Perhaps you all have been playing too long to remember or you haven't had the thought after all ... but when I landed in DR for the first time I didn't know it was called Death Realm, and my first thought (quite naturally I think) was: oh. I'm in hell.
First thing I remember is "Oh, I am on level one, underground."
I never thought of the DR as hell. I didn't know what to think of the DR. Newbies learn from the other players eventually. If we are referring to the DR as hell so will the newbies. So if we start referring to it correctly "The Death Realm" then we are repsecting the settings the Dev's made and teaching the newbies the correct language in the game.
-
We aren't talking about creating your own completely different rules and playing by them, we're just talking about using an ambigious word to describe something, which may be perceived by players to be OOC.
They are ruining their own RP and noone elses. Naming it something that is in RL and not in PS is making any RP rhat that is involved in invalid.
If that simple mistake 'invalidates' an RP, then it seems the rules are far too constrictive to foster an atmosphere of creative, dynamic and original RPers. Instead, you have a bunch of bland, cookie-cutter story-arcs and characters because people are too afraid to lose all their work by 'invalidating' it.
I'm guessing if we can't let slip a few 'Hell's instead of 'Death Realm', then maybe we can't call someone "Sadistic", seeing as how Marquis de Sade (the origininator of the word, who was a French psychopathic philosopher) never existed in Planeshift. That would constitute as 'invalidating' an RP, no? It's the same exact principal. So where does it end?
-
in previous post i wanted to make hell same as DR. I see it is also no way out.
Would it be ok if hell would be just synonyme of hot place (like inside a burning building ?) and Heaven as a place of infinitive pleasure, where we feel amaizing like nowehre else?
No religious meanings, no home of devil/god, only words which could have originaten the same way as word butter for example (noone knows why butter is called butter)
Since we can't avoid using these words, we need to put them somehow IClly. Agreed?
-
I don't think it is hard to avoid them, I can't remember ever using either of them ever in game.
-
I don't think it is hard to avoid them, I can't remember ever using either of them ever in game.
Ever call someone a sadist in-game? Maybe I should start a big thread about that too...
-
We can't just off everything but in my opinion using hell is the same as using Middle Earth. If we took the approach of cutting out words with origins we'll have none left. Its idiotic to even suggest that.
-
We can't just off everything but in my opinion using hell is the same as using Middle Earth. If we took the approach of cutting out words with origins we'll have none left. Its idiotic to even suggest that.
My point exactly. Except that Hell has as much or as little origins as any other word. Once upon a time there was a viking dude who invented 'Hel', the lower plane, then some Christian dude stole the word and made it the Devil's domain. Same as sadism - Marquis de Sade came along, wrote some incredibly sick and evil books, and from then on people would say "that's so horrible it's like Sade!" or simply "that's sadistic!"
Where's the difference? If we remove Hell, we should logically remove 90% of the English language.
-
No, because outside of the Bible and religion there is no hell. Outside of The Hobbit and Middle Earth there is no Hobbiton. Should we allow that too?
-
I still don't know why it is so hard to refer to the "death realm" as the death realm. Calling it hell shouldn't even be an issue. It is the death realm. To call it hell is incorrect no matter how much you argue it.
-
Once upon a time there was a viking dude who invented 'Hel', the lower plane, then some Christian dude stole the word and made it the Devil's domain.
Hey, thats an actual place ;P maybe it has even been named by the vikings
http://www.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&q=&z=13&ll=54.615822,18.800354&spn=0.055267,0.136127&om=1