PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: John80sk on December 31, 2006, 02:06:18 am
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Just wondering where you guys pull your statistics from, because from what I understand, it should be about 3:1 weight wise. Yes, I searched, and yes I apologise if I've made an ass out of myself again :P
I just bring this up because, well, it's a massive pain to mine 10 ore to make one stock and to have to have 5 stock to make a simple dagger. 4 ore for 1 stock would be a lot more manageable on the other hand.
http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/875892-1LabVx/875892.PDF
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it would be nice if a simple dagger was made of half of a stock, but not 5. I don't know. Where does all the metal go?
If we need 5 stocks to make a dagger, only because of some kind of weird balance issues, then i don't knw how much would i need for a claymore. Along this balance, i wouldn't be suprised if we needed 3 stocks. Because everybody knows that in PS claymore is the worst weapon and dagger one of the best. So the price must reflect it and so idea about th needed stocks... Doesn't sound right.
I just ask for realism, so that while RPing i will be able to ask simple questions of logical nature.
I come to a conbclussion that PS need more setting devs in different areas, so that we will end with believable world.
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John80sk... always stirring up trouble... :D Not to mention the weight of gold vs. steel and iron. Heh. Pardon me, but could you indicate what is relevant from the PDF? I am assuming the weights. If you always had beer, like me, these things wouldn't bother you so much. :D
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John80sk... always stirring up trouble... Cheesy Not to mention the weight of gold vs. steel and iron. Heh. Pardon me, but could you indicate what is relevant from the PDF? I am assuming the weights. If you always had beer, like me, these things wouldn't bother you so much. Cheesy
I have beer, but I used to work in a steel mill, and I was pretty sure that the 9-1 ratio had to be screwy. I just found the link via google to support my claims, but yes, the weights are what are important in the study.
Ratio of Ore to Coal in Mix - 3:1
Mix Weight/Push - 3.5lbs
Coal in Core/Push - 1lbs
it would be nice if a simple dagger was made of half of a stock, but not 5. I don't know. Where does all the metal go?
If we need 5 stocks to make a dagger, only because of some kind of weird balance issues, then i don't knw how much would i need for a claymore. Along this balance, i wouldn't be suprised if we needed 3 stocks. Because everybody knows that in PS claymore is the worst weapon and dagger one of the best. So the price must reflect it and so idea about th needed stocks... Doesn't sound right.
I just ask for realism, so that while RPing i will be able to ask simple questions of logical nature.
I come to a conbclussion that PS need more setting devs in different areas, so that we will end with believable world.
Yeah, I've assumed the weights in PS are roughly equivelant to kg's, so 6x10x5=300kg to make a dagger... that's one heavy dagger :P
I'd also recommend reducing the weight of ore to compensate for this... make it about 1kg and that means 4kg per stock, and 20kg for a knife... still rediculous, but better than 300
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Even 20% coal sounds like not quite enough carbon to make a proper steel to me...considering that coal contains a lot of big, fat hydrocarbon molecules that would need to break down in the furnace too...also, decreasing the iron:coal ratio would make it easier to haul the raw materials around :)
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The really strange thing with weights, is the weight gain from out of nowhere that you get when you melt a stock or ingot back into moltens - even weeks after you cast the stock from moltens the first time round!
Melting ores in furnaces is about removing impurities, so there is no surprise that an ingot or a stock weighs less than the ores they came from. But, to reverse the process and gain the weight that was lost during the refining process beggars belief!
Such moltens produced from melting ingots and stocks should weigh the same as the ingots or stocks -or with a slight weight gain of 0.1% - 0.5% for ingots melted back into moltens and 1.0% - 2.5% for stocks melted back into moltens.
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John80sk... always stirring up trouble... Cheesy Not to mention the weight of gold vs. steel and iron. Heh. Pardon me, but could you indicate what is relevant from the PDF? I am assuming the weights. If you always had beer, like me, these things wouldn't bother you so much. Cheesy
Actually, that was all just tongue-in-cheek. I haven't seen you since that night on IRC long ago... :D
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Just wondering where you guys pull your statistics from, because from what I understand, it should be about 3:1 weight wise.
RP answer:
It would seem the PS forges are much more inefficient then their equivalents in your land, without forced air heat it surprising that any metal can be retrieved from the ore at all. Maybe a more efficient forge design will be discovered soon.
Non-RP answer:
We chose that high ratio to try to limit what could have been mass production of weapons and armor had the ratio been left less. We had hoped players would team up a little since gathering ore and doing smith stuff can be done at same time. The ratio may change in the future (see above) but right now the focus is a little more on new features then game balance.
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Fair enough, although I'd like it noted that the efficiency of the furnace would most likely mean it would require more coal to create steel, not iron. The amount of steel you get from the ore would have more to do with the purity of the ore itself. :P
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Just wondering where you guys pull your statistics from, because from what I understand, it should be about 3:1 weight wise.
RP answer:
It would seem the PS forges are much more inefficient then their equivalents in your land, without forced air heat it surprising that any metal can be retrieved from the ore at all. Maybe a more efficient forge design will be discovered soon.
Makes sense, since the fuels available to residents of Yliakum (wood, coal, charcoal?) are far less heat-efficient than what is used in RL steel furnaces (natural or synthetic fuel gas).
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Yeah, I've assumed the weights in PS are roughly equivelant to kg's, so 6x10x5=300kg to make a dagger... that's one heavy dagger :P
I'd also recommend reducing the weight of ore to compensate for this... make it about 1kg and that means 4kg per stock, and 20kg for a knife... still rediculous, but better than 300
Those are lbs, which is 0.45 Kg.
So it's about 0.45x10x5=22,5 kilos.
[Edit: Not that ridiculous having in mind TomT's answer, long live good roleplay turn-arounds.]
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22.5kg for a dagger? ;P
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No, no, 22,5kg for five stocks. It makes sense if one is quite shabby shaping the weapon and stuff, one would wish for better forges then.
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if the stock is shabby, you look for another and leave it alone, to someone else who likes doing crappy weapons. at least its what i would do and would be happy to have such an option.
Besides, how much can a dagger wear? 4kg ? Sounds like one stock. Also, the stock don't disapear magically in the process of shaping it into a dagger, You heat it and start smashing with a hammer till it has a right shape. In Japan, smiths also found out that the more layers the swords has, the better it is. So, they were smashing they reshaped stock, then compact like a piece of paper and reshaping it again. If there is metal loss in the process, someone would have to find reliable source to prove it was so huge, because logically thinking it can't be big.
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I filed a bug (http://www.hydlaa.com/bugtracker/bug.php?op=show&bugid=2266) in the tracker about this issue.
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I just got an idea that maybe you need 5 ingots only when you are highly unskilled. When you master the craft, you don't make silly mistakes anymore and don't waste ingots.
The thing is that while making a blade, you may break it in the process and so the ingot is wasted. Also, sorry if messed something up stock-ingot i don't know the crafting in PS well.
But if it is the case, i think it was made in a bit wrong way. It is player friendly that you know always how much ingots you will use with a given skill. But say that everytime you try to make a blade, you take one ingot for a dagger for example and try, you can be extremaly lucky and success at the first time, but you can as well break 10 ingots and nothing. That would be more realistic, as more direct touch with the rules of reality, but less player friendly, because less predictable. But I'm all for it.
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A couple of points, up until the point when the blade is quenched if you don't like the shape you can just reshape it. Now when you quench the blade your going to make some very radical changes in the structure of the metal, and at this point it would be possible for a blade to be ruined, but even if it is, you can heat the blade back up to just under the melting point and start hammering on it again or if worse comes to worse you can put the broken blades into the furnace and recycle them. To keep the carbon levels high enough, you may need to add some more coal, but that I am not sure about. I haven't researched that end of it enough. But I am sure that heating to just under the melting point is most likely sufficient to reuse the steel. So the stock weight issue still stands.
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Those are lbs, which is 0.45 Kg.
So it's about 0.45x10x5=22,5 kilos.
I can't even curl 240lbs... 15lbs on the other hand seems sensible, I figure a steel dagger would weigh a little under 5lbs... and in game it weight 1lbs... so for 240lbs of iron we've got 1lbs of dagger.
And I'm going to say again that a less efficient furnace means more coal, not more iron. ;)
Er, and I dunno, my stock is all at least 250/250, so why would I throw it away?
I did notice the devs reduced the weight of coal though... which kindof goes against what I've been saying here, but it does make it easier for crafting so I'll give it a temporary thumbs up with the condition that it will be fixed someday in the future :thumbup:
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Perhaps a mid ground could be reached where scrap is saved and can be remelted into molten steel (obviously less then you started with, say scrap from 5 stocks will make 3 new ones or something close to it), that'd make sense and be somewhat realistic: I doubt they'd throw away the 239 lb of leftover steel... but 240 daggers from 5 stocks seems unreasonable... so we can just say that it came from waste, and improve the scrap gathering at higher levels of blacksmithing (from say 5-1 orig. to scrap for new to 5-3 or 5-4 org. to scrap for new). This would be relatively player friendly while still requiring the person to get more steel to make more weapons.
Of course, I'm fine with it as it is... mass producing weapons could cause problems, as prices would drop lower then they already are, and it would mean more people using illegal 1000/1000 weapons or the like.