PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: rtrentc on January 09, 2007, 12:19:56 am
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Just the other day I was in Trasoks when the conversation went something like this.
Player 1 - I have some iron ore to sell how about 50 trias an ore. Player 2 -- I am willing to pay 20 trias an ore. Player 3 -- I will pay your 200 trias an ore. Why should you have to take a measly 20 trias and ore when you can make 240 trias an ore mining gold. So I will pay you 200 trias an ore.
Now player 2 was in my opinion offering a very high amount per ore when you consider that the npc's will buy iron ore @ 2 trias an ore. And what Player 3 stated is quite true about trias gained for effort expended. Cause you have gold just as plentiful as Iron. So you have completely disregared the laws of supply and demand. And the only reason that you don't see people running around with a ton of gold all over them is that a) except to sell to an NPC its useless. And b) there are no jewelers.
So the only and I mean the only reason that people mine iron is to make weapons. They don't mine it to sell it to the npc's Its just not worth the effort for that.
So here is my wish. Its a simple wish.
1) figure out what each item in the game can be used for.
2) decide how plentiful it should be.
3) set npc prices to reflect this.
Cause based on its use and its availability, gold should sell for 1 tria or less. Even with mining 0 to 1, you can easily collect 10 gold ores. 2400 tria when sold to an npc. Way out of line with the true demand for it.
And yes I know that there are other threads in here that have covered this topic in one fashion or another, but if you want a good economy, you really need to look at usefullness of items and how plentiful you want it to be so that the price can reflect this.
So you can remove this topic if you want. I am just reminding you that all is not well and I this is one area you need to look at.
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only PS is hardly finished, and what you tell would be right if there was any use of gold ore by the players. (except selling it to NPC) when there will be use, the prices at NPCs can be set that low, that it will be hardly profitable, as pick gets used up too and need to be repaired.
But the anscient thing which is mesing up everything in almost any game is the NPCs killing and bringing their loot on the market. If this won't be restricted, we will never have good economy too.
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Well, gold in the RW is pretty useless, its a given that the electronics industry uses it, but other than that I can only think of plating things to stop corrosion (and zinc is cheaper and does an adequate job) and using it to show off wealth (jewellry etc).
Maybe in Yliakum there is some underground trade for some reason that is not known to any of us lowly super-heroes.
Maybe Harnquist and Trasok just really love the stuff.
In addition, where would your income come from if you couldnt mine? Mobs would be awfully over used IMO.
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On additional note, I suggest that you do a little research online and find as much as you can that is written by Ludwig Von Mises. And check out www.mises.org. A excellent resource on austrian economics. Oh and look up Hayek as well. Those two were probably two of the best economists with a very practical viewpoint that you will come across.
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Just make gold harder to mine, or require a higher level to do so, problem solved. 200 an iron ore isn't bad, and considering a crafted short sword can sell for around 20k (and considering what it hits should sell for more like 50k), the smith can make some good money as well.
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well, perhapes the limiting on gold would be best, inflation of the makets is seen already...
dont reduce the cost of gold, but rather the amount open to finding. make it more limited, raise the price giving to refiened ores (will promote crafting levels ). also..
make it easyer and quicker to get coal and iron, coal should be real easy to get.. 2 ores per dig ;D and iron should be an ore ever other dig. gold on the other hand should be
an ore ever 5-8 digs.
thats the best i got..
umm.. sounds intresting..
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On additional note, I suggest that you do a little research online and find as much as you can that is written by Ludwig Von Mises. And check out www.mises.org. A excellent resource on austrian economics. Oh and look up Hayek as well. Those two were probably two of the best economists with a very practical viewpoint that you will come across.
Economic theories are often highly controversial and not well agreed upon. For instance, I believe Hayek wrote that socialism ultimately leads to tyrany. Other authors write that socialism ultimately leads to democracy and freedom. Both camps have many supporters.
So it is not wise to label one set of economics as "Good" and another as "Bad" without noting that not everyone agrees with you.
As far as gold goes: Gold needs to be easy to get right now so that it's easy enough to get money that people can try all the different features of the game.
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Iron ore has more value than gold for players. Gold has no value except for what the NPC give for it. You'll only be able to sell gold if you go under NPC prices (not including it's very limited use in quest needed items) so the buyer can make a profit. Iron you'll be able to sell for quite a bit since it has a use in crafting. This is basic economy at work ... sure it is not what we are used to, gold being worth a whole lot more than iron but it is PS economy nonetheless.
Expect prices to change every time new content is added but a balance always comes in.
I do agree that NPCs should adapt to the economic balances that appear among players though. That NPC prices can't control player based economy is quite clear, I think .. so they should at least follow it in order to keep the appearance up that our world only has one economy. Not one for NPCs and one for Players.
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Okay i have been giving this a bit of thought. And i believe that I have thougth up a system that would actually create just one economy and not two. one for NPC's and one for Players.
Okay here are the basics.
1) Everything that an one NPC sells that NPC and/or another will buy.
Likewise everything that one NPC buys that NPC and/or another will Sell.
2) Every NPC that sells will have stock levels that it sells from.
2a) You can also have some of the pc's produce at a specific rate items for sale. Such as Harnquist making a specific weapon or weapons and selling them as well as the weapons he has purchased.
3) Dynamic Prices.
Simple set of equations that will based on the product bought or sold, raise or lower the price that the npc is willing to buy or sell at. For example merchant A is buying and selling iron. For each unit of time that He hasn't had someone sell him some iron (And you can apply this not just to each merchant at a time but to all merchants at once or all merchants in one city at once), He raises the price that he will buy the iron. When some one sells him iron he will lower his buying price once the transaction has been completed. Likewise when selling iron, (if he has stock to sell), he will keep raising his selling price until someone buys. Once a sale has been made the price will be lowered. This process can be used on all items in the economy, regardless of if they are dropped items or player crafted items.
This would create a real market based economy. And the prices that players would be able to receive for mined, picked up, and crafted items would depend on how much of said items are floating around in the hands of players, and merchants. After all the more say iron ore i sell to the merchants the less i will get for that ore because the market is being saturated with ore.
(the equations you set the actuall raising and lowering amounts can be linear or non linear depending on how quickly and by how much you want your market to react to changeing levels of product in circulation.)
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rtrentc, your comments belong in a new thread - not this one.
I do agree that NPCs should adapt to the economic balances that appear among players though. That NPC prices can't control player based economy is quite clear, I think .. so they should at least follow it in order to keep the appearance up that our world only has one economy. Not one for NPCs and one for Players.
Not true. Let's say you want to lower the price of iron. Have Harnquist sell iron for 500 trias each, and no one will buy iron from other players for more than that. Let's say you want to raise the price of fire, frosty, and dark weapons. Have Harnquist buy such weapons for 10,000 trias and no one will sell such weapons for less than that.
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Yes, Zanz. you're right NPC selling can have an influence, NPC buying hardly. Thing is there isn't much special that NPCs sell.
You did forget to add inconvenience and distance into the equation .. it is very possible that people will buy at a higher price or sell at a lower price than the NPC because they are not near to that NPC and rather save some time than tria.
If I read your comment, rtrentc. It reminds me of the game Guild Wars. There are certain rare items there like Dyes and Crafting Materials and they have merchants to buy and sell those dyes from players. You will see their prices are dynamic and vary with the supply. The more of one type of material that is sold to these merchants by players, the lower the price drops if you want to buy it from them. And the less they have the higher the prices raise.
If something like this could be implemented, NPCs having a stock that is mainly filled by players it would be very interesting I think.
I wouldn't go working with time units though, I think the system works nice enough if you just look at availability and demand.
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Price fluxuations reflect an instable economy. I don't think it's unreasonable for the Planeshift world to have a stable economy.
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Fluctations in price just reflect that suppy and demand are dynamic forces. The suppy of or the demand of a given item isn't static. Peoples needs, choices and desires are constantly in flux. Just take a look at the real world example of gasoline prices. These are constantly changing, not because the economy is unstable, but because the supply and the demand is in constant flux.
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Actually I think you both have points. Price fluctuations happen because supply and demand change .. but a changing supply and demand, especially the former points on an unstable economy. Gas prices are rising so high because of (economic) problems in the middle east and because the oil reserves are decreasing.
I do think that PS will eventually create a stable economy, even with malleable NPC prices, but in its current state every implemented change has a large impact on the economy.
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Fluctations in price just reflect that suppy and demand are dynamic forces. The suppy of or the demand of a given item isn't static. Peoples needs, choices and desires are constantly in flux. Just take a look at the real world example of gasoline prices. These are constantly changing, not because the economy is unstable, but because the supply and the demand is in constant flux.
We're talking about a medieval world.
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I know that this is a medival world. I chose gasoline as my example because it would be something everyone is familiar with. The economic rules that apply now would appy then as well. The only thing that would be different in the medival world case is the exact items that are being bought and sold. You would still have staple items, like wheat, barely, corn. You would still have manufactured items, like swords, shields, horseshoes, doors, tables, etc. Even though the method of production from modern to medival would be different the rules of supply and demand, of labor and capitol would still be the same.
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The same rules did apply, but my impression is that such changes in value would be more gradual and less severe. There is one event that comes to my mind though, but it's not medieval - it's in the 17th century.
In the beginning of the 17th century, the tulip was starting to be used as a garden decoration in addition to its medicinal use. It soon gained major popularity as a trading product, especially in Holland. The interest in the flower was huge and bulbs sold for unbelievably high prices. Botanists began to hybridize the flower. They soon found ways of making the tulip even more decorative and tempting. Hybrids and mutations of the flower were seen as rarities and a sign of high status. In the months of late 1636 to early 1637, there was a complete “Tulipmania” in the Netherlands. Some varieties could cost more than an Amsterdam house at that time. Even ordinary men took part in the business. They saw how much money the upper class made in the commodity and thought it was an easy way of getting lots of money with no risk. The bulbs were usually sold by weight while they were still in the ground. This trade in un-sprouted flowers came to be called “wind trade”.
The traders made huge amounts of money every month. People started selling their businesses, family homes, farm animals, furnishing and dowries to participate. The government could not do anything to stop “Tulipmania”; the trade was all about access and demand. Finally, the tulip did not appear to quite so rare as to justify such high prices. Over-supply led to lower prices and dealers went bankrupt while many people lost their savings because of the trade. This “Tulip Crash” made the government introduce special trading restrictions on the flower.
http://www.holland.nl/uk/holland/sights/tulips-history.html
I think the question is "How stable do we want the economy to be?" because this is a fantasy universe.
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I would like the economy to be as today. I think, we won't create economy as it was 600-500 years ago. Simply because people think differently. There is way too many people who wouldn't try to act like they would 5 senturies ago. I wound't because i don't even know how.
I can only suppose it was different once. The economy isn't only about supply and demand. There are exceptions and they are because of people. People have different needs and feelings, sometimes irrational. People was different once and thats why i except the principles of economy to be different once. Also today we have different potentiality, globalisation and so thigs are hoe they are, but not really exactly as they were once.
I believe we can have similiar economy in game and I want it because I don't like being enforced by the game mehanics. This always lead to ooc conclusions, you have to ignore if you want to keep RPing. Because this would lead to you not being able to RP any role you want. Coz the more restricted you are, the more ooc things must be enforced at you. Thats why we don't really call diablo a RPG. Because RP is about playing any role. If not, PS is same RPG as Diablo is. Only in Diablo you are restricted more to what you can RP.
So finnaly, for me the question is if you want realistic economy or not. If realistic economy is unstable, then it is the economy i want. I remind the famous crash on Wallstreet.
I always laught the the complaing common people i this situation: A group of rich players does something to the economy, by accumulating a lot of some product and then releasing it at once. The prices drop and other players massively start complaing at these few richplayers^^ This is called realism. And i like it. Sooner or later the balance must come back and while it isn't, people shoiuld complain ICly, not OCCly.
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It seems that one question that has arisen is:
"What is gold used for within Yliakum?"
Which means that because the game is incomplete, some resources are not resources but simply a means of taking money from NPCs. So, is there a use intended for gold? Obviously, as the currency in Yliakum is made out of crystals, its traditional use on Earth is already filled. So, what are the other areas in which Gold can be used? I'm a little unsure as to exactly what skills and professions are intended for the final game, but presumably there are the following among them:
Resource Gathering (Primary Industry):
Mining
Farming
Hunting
Player Item/Consumable Production (Secondary Industry):
Smithing
Cooking
Looking at the Fantasy genre, it would also be fairly normal for the following tertiary industries to exist:
Mercenaries
Enchantment
Guarding
Now, one solution that popped into my head as I was reading this thread was that perhaps:
Gold has a high natural affinity for magical energy. Therefore, it keeps magical charges for longer than just plain iron and steel. This means that an enchanter would prefer to bind a weapon's handle with a gold wire in order to make it deal fire damage than to just enchant the weapon normally, because it would be easier. This could be represented ingame by either the wire-bound weapon costing less mana to enchant, or better enchantments being available for it.
This problem probably doesn't solely apply to gold. With the resources available within the game, similar questions are likely to keep arising, and so they need answering. This post is sort of a translation of the way I would think about the problem. I by no means would presume to tell other people that they should think like me, but I think that the more ways people are exposed to looking at issues, the easier it is for them to form their own unique techniques and therefore solutions.
If I'm repeating an idea or thought process that's been explored in another thread I haven't read, then I apologise - I haven't looked at the forums in a long while.
Anyway, that's my 2 euro-cents. If anyone else has thoughts on the subject, I'd be glad to hear them - I find problems like this quite interesting.
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Being in the business of trading on this game I can't agree with you more. I have two thousand daggers comming my way and no one is buying them. I am happy to help out future blacksmiths but considering the return I have to buy at acheaper price. But no I can sell to Harliquest for more. NPCs are great but as for supply and demand it is useless!
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Yea try to sell to those people on this game. Harq gives 200 for a sword they want 2500 from you?????????
Make it stable set some prices and rely more on hand made stuff at lower than 50,000 Trais then economy will move in the right direction. Right now though it is just like the game make believe because nothing demands chance inside the game. If a player doesn't get the price they want they just use it up becuse resources are plentiful with no cap to ake it harder to obtain things. So Untill something is changed PS is only going to be something we claim is life like. Another thing to say on this topic is that nothing can be done because Everyday new people join and if it is too hard to get into the game due to restrictions on goods then only the oldest of players will be able to survive. Unless a faction picks you up but even then how would a new player play without getting a sword for say a month until one was handed down or they dug in the dirt for a year to get one of Harqs 50/50 merchandise. Don't get me wrong I love the game We just have to figure out what is important before true economy can be discovered!