PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: witchking on January 12, 2007, 12:12:18 am
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This could be the beginning of an anecdote, depending on how my question is answered.
Here are some quotes from the official PS history:
Talad and Laanx prayed to Vodùl to lure some races from the other gods and to bring them to Yliakum.
In the City of the Azure Sun, the people increased their population and their knowledge under Talad's silent guidance. Many of them - except the Diaboli - slowly gave up the faith in their previous gods to worship the god of the glyphs.
If the races were lured from the other gods and Diaboli did not give up the faith in their previous god, who is the god of Diaboli? What is his/her name? Surely, Diaboli themselves would know, would they not? Especially if you are a Diaboli, who grew up in a Diaboli village. Do they build temples to that god? Why aren't they getting special protection, favors, benefits, unique spells etc from that god? Or is "Black Flame" possibly a god that Diaboli brought with them into Yliakum? Or perhaps their god is everywhere anyway, regardless of where they go? Perhaps it's a Death God in Death Realm? Seems like quite a bit of a stretch though.
Another quote from PS history:
All the Talad's efforts to make the Diaboli his followers failed. The Diaboli were inclined to disappear whenever someone began to discuss about religion.
Is this specifically in reference to Talad's religion or is this in reference to any religion? For example, would Diaboli avoid Laanx temple as well? How about Black Flame's temple (if there is one)? Or even a talk about Black Flame religion. And if Diaboli did not give up the faith in their previous god, would it not be reasonable to conclude that they already have a religion of their own in some form?
Diaboli description talks about a penalty to holy and blessed items. Again, is this strictly in reference to Talad or does it include any god's blessings? Would Laanx or Black Flame blessings count? Basing this on many successful and popular fantasy settings, the evil/dark gods can give blessings of their own just as well. And I'm purposely not putting blessings in quotes here. What about the blessings of their own god? Should it not give them some kind of counter to such a penalty?
During the character creation process, even if you are a Diaboli, who grew up in Diaboli village, you can still pick Talad as your religion or religion of your parents. Once Talad's temple is implemented, with its own clergy and such, what would happen if a Diaboli walked into such a temple and talked to an NPC to join their clergy or become a Talad follower? Would an NPC not even offer such a quest or have some kind of a shocked response that a Diaboli would even ask to join? This is just hypothetically speaking, of course. I wouldn't want to join Talad's clergy as a Diaboli in the first place. But I am curious to know how this will be handled.
Thanks. :devil:
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I don't know why you assume Diaboli has any god.
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No assumption at all, just facts, which I already quoted. Scroll up and read them again. ;)
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I think that the Black Flame religion is confined to Kadiakos.
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I think that the Black Flame religion is confined to Kadiakos.
Perhaps, although the Dark Wanderer Lemur you meet practically oozes "Black Flame". Maybe he wandered too far from home. :D
Anyway, just to elaborate a bit further. There are only four ways that races exist in Yliakum, according to PS history:
1) Created by Laanx and Talad
2) Lured from other gods through portals
3) Mixing of some races (Ynnwn)
4) Existing wild races before the arrival of Laanx and Talad.
Now, Diaboli clearly weren't created by Laanx or Talad, they're not a product of two different races (not the same way as Ynnwn anyway), and they didn't exist in Yliakum before. It also clearly states that they arrived through a portal. Now, remember, it didn't say "lure some races from other places", it said "lure some races from other gods". And that Diaboli never gave up the faith in their previous god. Whatever the real case is, that's how the story sounds.
I think I found an answer to the Diaboli god's identity... Ready for this? :D This one may be an assumption and a coincidence, and may forever remain an unofficial answer but it sure is a fun one. Go to the Diaboli page on the main site and look at their art. The images that pop up in a new window appear to be normal, right? But look at the little thumbnails before you click the images - it says in tiny red letters "Vulcan style". Now, why would they choose such a word? Something purely random? Vulcan is a Roman god of fire (esp. destructive fire) and craftsmanship (esp. blacksmithing), also known as Hephaestus in Greece.
So, there you have it, mystery solved. :devil:
Would be nice to hear an official answer to my original question though.
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I don't know why you assume Diaboli has any god.
He's right, it's pretty clear, they, as a majority anyways, do believe in another god and another religeon.
I can't wait to find out more info about this, thanks for the info witchking :thumbup:
~~Datruth
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:o
/me listens to the religios chatter
Well, what about atheist, atheist is a religion as well, since diabilo wernt lured from another god, this would also give some credit to not having a said god ;D.
OR.. maybe another god made them as a project he he.. and just hasnt gotten around to finding is way werd children :P
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The history says those methods of arriving, meaning they are the only known ways of getting there according to that history. It doesn't say that no races arrived of their own will (space-ship, meteor, home-brew portal, through the death-realm (only if there is a single death-realm that all beings go to)). It also doesn't say that other races couldn't create their own races.
Just food for thought.
As for their religion, a religion can lack a god, or have many gods. Take the Force, for example. Another possibility is that they see themselves as minor-gods. Maybe they just don't like the idea of "big brother". Or they could have displeased some god/priest once and he put a curse on them, making them allergic to the power of other gods.
I think the Black Flame is a whole 'nother ball of twine, but it could be related. It seems more like a minor-god trying to gain power to me, possibly a "native" of the planet.
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Maybe it says Vulcan style because the Diaboli home islands air is full of black smoke and has rivers of blood(magma?). I dont think the devs will ever use any existing gods, so its coincidence. I think Diaboli are atheists, because there are but two gods in Yliakum and this Black Flame thing. There cant be much more, because then it would have been mentioned somewhere on the setting pages. Vodul and other gods dont count, because they dont reside in Yliakum or near it anyway, so they have no connections to Yliakum inhabitants. EDIT: The setiing pages are about 10 years old, and contain some mistakes(like Yliakum is a city) and some things might have changed, so its not a compleaty reliable source of information, but the best we have. :)
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Well, Vodul would be the obvious answer for the Diaboli God. \\o// If the Diaboli were lured to Yliakum by Vodul, I assume that it is from one of Voduls worlds.
Just because most of Diaboli do not believe in Talad, doesn't mean you cannot choose to worship Talad. It depends on what you plan to RP.
Also, arn't you being a bit picky?
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Also, arn't you being a bit picky?
Seems to be the soup of the month around here.
Still, I am interested...
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Aren't Diaboli allergic to all holyness? Wouldn't that mean that they can't take any god? I'm guessing they can't survive a god's presence because they're naturally allergic to gods and therefore they wouldn't survive a belief.
The span and effect, and where a god's presence lies in the PS world is left to be discussed. All I can say is if the Diaboli had a religion they'd have holy items, and that would be a rather unpleasant experience.
Also, aren't holy items emanating a special presence of a god, a piece of his/her power, a piece of themselves and would that not mean that Diaboli can't stand the Godly power. Gods are empowered by their believers and wouldn't that mean that the power of belief is in fact the power of the god which hurts the Diaboli. That would mean that the Diaboli are allergic to the power believing and therefore can't have a religion, believe.
Hope you understood my analogy.
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No assumption at all, just facts, which I already quoted. Scroll up and read them again. ;)
Don't you think that if someone write something, it would be good to consider it?
So, a fact is you have problems with understanding the english language and meaning of its words.
Many of them - except the Diaboli - slowly gave up the faith in their previous gods to worship the god of the glyphs.
So, explaining like to a child: The diaboli did not necessarly gave up on their faith, because they could as well have no faith at all and so no god.
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Well, what about atheist, atheist is a religion as well
A primary definition of religion in majority of dictionaries is similar to:
"Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe"
Anything else is listed under that definition and is not primary. And atheism as a religion is usually listed under jargon. So, obviously it depends on a context, and I think that the context of religion is clear in this particular case.
...since diabilo wernt lured from another god, this would also give some credit to not having a said god
PlaneShift history states otherwise - "Talad and Laanx prayed to Vodùl to lure some races from the other gods and to bring them to Yliakum. Vodùl agreed their requests...". :)
OR.. maybe another god made them as a project he he.. and just hasnt gotten around to finding is way werd children :P
I don't know, that sounds like a huge stretch to me.
The history says those methods of arriving, meaning they are the only known ways of getting there according to that history. It doesn't say that no races arrived of their own will (space-ship, meteor, home-brew portal, through the death-realm (only if there is a single death-realm that all beings go to)). It also doesn't say that other races couldn't create their own races.
Is this in reference to the four ways I mentioned? If so, I'm not sure how it changes anything in regards to Diaboli's arrival. PS history clearly states that Diaboli arrived through the second portal, created by Vodul in the stone labyrinths (Ylians and Enkidukai arrived through the first portal, which was not inside the stone labyrinths), and their arrival was observed by both, Laanx and Talad. And since Lemur, Kran, Ylians and Enkidukai have settled on the first level of Yliakum, it's very likely that Diaboli have settled somewhere on the second level, if there was no more room left on the first. So, basically, even if there are other speculative ways to arrive in Yliakum, Diaboli did not arrive by those methods.
As for their religion, a religion can lack a god, or have many gods. Take the Force, for example.
But whatever the case is, the primary definition of religion always includes some kind of a supernatural power (like "the Force"), which isn't always seen as a "god" but is supernatural nonetheless. And yes, a religion can have many gods too. However, not a single one is named for Diaboli, even though PS history states that they have at least one, which they did not give up their faith in.
If Diaboli never had a god to begin with, why does it make such a distinction with "except the Diaboli" quote? Wouldn't it be better to say "except the Diaboli, who did not believe in any god to begin with" then? Considering a reference to "previous gods" and an earlier one to "lure from other gods", it doesn't quite imply atheism.
In many stories and movies, for example, where there is a confrontation between a main hero and a demon, a demon or a devil would often joke "I'm an atheist" when it comes to religious talk. But it still clearly shows that they worship the devil, are the devil or that their master is the devil, who is a supernatural power and is essentially a god to them. However you define it, they usually have supernatural abilities way beyond an average human being. Humans usually have to rely on various trinkets, their faith, and basically do all the work themselves to battle with such demons. Those demons, on the other hand, get much more direct gifts and powers from their deities.
Another possibility is that they see themselves as minor-gods. Maybe they just don't like the idea of "big brother". Or they could have displeased some god/priest once and he put a curse on them, making them allergic to the power of other gods.
Sounds like a big stretch. The only other reference to "other gods" in PS history is this:
Other gods, older and more powerful than they, told them about great tasks they would have to perform when their worshipers became ready to follow their directions.
That certainly does not imply a "minor god".
As for a curse, that too sounds like a stretch. Laanx cursed the whole of Yliakum, for example, and no one became "allergic" to other gods. I'm sure you're going to say that it didn't affect anyone because "Talad protected them". It certainly says nothing about any curse on Diaboli. And I'm trying to rely on the information that is available to us, rather than speculating too much.
I think the Black Flame is a whole 'nother ball of twine, but it could be related. It seems more like a minor-god trying to gain power to me, possibly a "native" of the planet.
Yes, that is why I said it sounded like a huge stretch, if that was the case. Black Flame sounds more like a "local yocal" to me as well.
Maybe it says Vulcan style because the Diaboli home islands air is full of black smoke and has rivers of blood(magma?).
It does say in Diaboli description that their homeland suggests a presence of a volcano. However, Vulcan is also known as "god of volcanoes". Like I said though, it's probably just a coincidence anyway but still a fun one. :)
I think Diaboli are atheists, because there are but two gods in Yliakum and this Black Flame thing. There cant be much more, because then it would have been mentioned somewhere on the setting pages.
Sure but you can't expect the settings pages to be perfect and without mistakes, do you? It has already been mentioned by many that there seem to be quite a few plot holes and contradictions in PS history. Not to mention that we are not being told everything, possibly not to spoil the surprises. Besides, consider the possibility that the story is still in its infancy and has not been worked out and ironed out. I've seen stories where the writers made a big "OOPS!" before.
Vodul and other gods dont count, because they dont reside in Yliakum or near it anyway, so they have no connections to Yliakum inhabitants. EDIT: The setiing pages are about 10 years old, and contain some mistakes(like Yliakum is a city) and some things might have changed, so its not a compleaty reliable source of information, but the best we have.
As long as the gods are aware where their people are, and as long as they are still worshiped, there is always a connection. Vodul and other gods were aware of what Laanx and Talad were doing, they even tried to warn them, and it was Vodul who created the portals in the first place, so certainly they can have a connection to their people, if they choose to do so. Of course, most have given up the faith in their previous gods, except Diaboli. Hence, my question.
And there you go, you said it yourself that the history isn't a completely reliable source of information but the best we have, hence why I'm asking a question rather than privately making conclusions and being satisfied with them. :)
Well, Vodul would be the obvious answer for the Diaboli God. If the Diaboli were lured to Yliakum by Vodul, I assume that it is from one of Voduls worlds.
I'm not sure if Vodul would be the obvious choice. Vodul is the god of future events. Diaboli seem to be more fire and darkness oriented. Vodul created the portals, sure but the luring was supposed to happen from other gods.
The whole idea of luring other races is that they had to have been looking for something different in the first place OR that a god of some sort has made an appearance to them with a promise of something alluring. It doesn't describe what each race has been looking for and for what reasons but it does give some examples. For example, Dermorians were trying to escape from the Nomadic Knights, so new places of settlement sounded very appealing to them. It also says that when Diaboli have arrived through a portal, they thought to have reached a "promised land". The primary definition of the promised land without reference to real-life religion is something similar to:
"A longed-for place where complete satisfaction and happiness will be achieved."
"By extension, an idyllic place or state of being that a person hopes to reach, especially one that cannot be reached except by patience and determination, is called a “Promised Land.”
Also, without directly referring to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, "promised land" is also something that is promised by a god to his people. Hence, the word "promised". Otherwise, promised by whom?
Although it does put "promised land" in quotes, so who knows what it really means.
Diaboli description states that they are the only race that thinks of Yliakum as a real paradise. And one of the definitions of the "promised land" is also "Heaven". So, go figure.
Just because most of Diaboli do not believe in Talad, doesn't mean you cannot choose to worship Talad. It depends on what you plan to RP.
But you see, there is a problem with that. Diaboli inherently seem to have a penalty to holy/blessed/sacred places and items. If a Diaboli chooses to follow Talad, will that penalty be lifted? Surely, a god is powerful enough to lift such a "curse", if the curse of Laanx didn't affect any races? If not, then perhaps Diaboli's god is more powerful than Talad or Laanx combined? If the penalty is not lifted for a Diaboli who is a follower of Talad or even Laanx, then it makes absolutely no sense RP-wise to follow any of those religions. In fact, it makes for a horrible RP, in my opinion.
Let's see - hypothetically speaking, we have a Diaboli who follows Talad but is punished by anything that is blessed by Talad and feels uncomfortable inside his temple. Hmm...
Also, arn't you being a bit picky?
How is asking questions being picky? Those who don't ask questions never learn anything. I enjoy these kinds of discussions. And if PS history is considered to be unreliable and outdated, it makes even more sense to ask a question rather than be content with a private conclusion. Besides, things were starting to get a bit stale around here. I find a fresh perspective to be a good thing. C'mon, admit it, you guys like it. :)
Aren't Diaboli allergic to all holyness? Wouldn't that mean that they can't take any god? I'm guessing they can't survive a god's presence because they're naturally allergic to gods and therefore they wouldn't survive a belief.
The question is can holy be evil? There are expressions like "Holy Hell" but "holy" is almost always associated with "saintly" or "good" in most popular religions. For example, demons are traditionally considered to be unholy, and they certainly do not believe in God. But they do believe and are closely associated with the Devil, who to them is essentially a god, a supernatural being with supreme power, who grants them evil and dark supernatural abilities. And of course, those demons traditionally don't like crosses in Christianity or other holy items. But what about the items and blessings from the devil? Are they considered to be holy or unholy? Undead in the fantasy settings are traditionally considered to be unholy but have supernatural powers and abilities from their respective deities. And if a hateful and vengeful god like Laanx can give blessings or if a dark and twisted god/deity like Black Flame can give them as well, are they automatically considered to be holy or unholy? Why can't Laanx or Black Flame be the Diaboli's Devil so to speak?
Explain to me how one is "born" being allergic to "holy" items/places/etc anyway? Even the traditional demons, vampires and other beings have some kind of ties to the "Dark Lord" or "Devil", which then, and only then, makes them be uncomfortable against traditional "holy" items. BUT they gain their own supernatural powers and abilities in return, which are usually more direct than humans who have to rely on faith and trinkets and pretty much do all the work themselves. I know this is debatable because some writings make that connection clear, while others do not. For example, vampire lore may include an evil deity/god or it may just state that they hate anything holy. But then you have to take into account that some vampire lore has them run at the sight of a cross, while other has them laughing in your face and melting the cross away and calling it "misguided fairy tale tricks". Same with demons - in some lore they are afraid of a cross, in other they can melt it away and laugh manically, and it usually takes a lot more than a cross to battle them.
I don't know of any other lore or writing where a person is simply born to be "unholy". And I mean "born", not raised from the dead like "undead". It almost always involves an attachment to an evil god/deity of some sort, whom they consider to be their god and reject the other existing "good" god, they almost always get their own blessings and holy items (or unholy, if you will), which give them benefits. And those benefits are usually a lot more direct in their powers. Notice that regular humans/beings almost always have to rely on their faith, various trinkets, crosses, bible, and basically do all the battling and work themselves, hoping to prevail, while evil being with evil deities have much more direct powers and supernatural abilities, with their gods being directly involved in their lives. And they too believe and have faith in their evil gods.
Diaboli seem to have neither - they don't have any noticable supernatural powers (please, don't bring the bonus saving throw vs elemental spells, this doesn't even come close), and they have all the penalties that usually come with turning to the dark side.
Also, remember, that whatever your definition of "holy" is, it is always related to religion, and if it is related to religion, then why don't Diaboli have their own but only a penalty to someone else's? Think about it. :)
The span and effect, and where a god's presence lies in the PS world is left to be discussed. All I can say is if the Diaboli had a religion they'd have holy items, and that would be a rather unpleasant experience.
And why can't it be "unholy" items with an unholy religion? It would probably only be "unholy" to those who would not recognize their god and religion. Laanx followers especially do not even want to acknowledge the existence of Talad.
Also, aren't holy items emanating a special presence of a god, a piece of his/her power, a piece of themselves and would that not mean that Diaboli can't stand the Godly power. Gods are empowered by their believers and wouldn't that mean that the power of belief is in fact the power of the god which hurts the Diaboli. That would mean that the Diaboli are allergic to the power believing and therefore can't have a religion, believe.
And why would a race have a hereditary or a genetic penalty, if you will, to the "power of belief". Explain to me how religion and biology have crossed the paths in the case of Diaboli?
Thanks.
Don't you think that if someone write something, it would be good to consider it?
Exactly, hence why you should've read and considered the quotes from the official PS history. ;)
So, a fact is you have problems with understanding the english language and meaning of its words.
Oh, it's a fact now, is it? No, the fact is that you decided to play dumb and got burned for it, and now you're angry and decided to resort to personal attacks. As for understanding the English language - look who's talking! :) Read and comprehend the quotes I posted before turning all sour.
So, explaining like to a child: The diaboli did not necessarly gave up on their faith, because they could as well have no faith at all and so no god.
I could point out some mistakes you've made in "english language" already but I won't stoop to your low level. Here's my explanation to you "like to a child":
If there is no faith to begin with, there is nothing to give up, so the "except" distinction either isn't necessary at all or an addition of "except Diaboli, who never followed a god to begin with" would make more sense.
Anyway, you're not my brother nor are you my mother or father, and we're certainly not married (Thank God!), so I don't have to listen to your crap and personal attacks. Shove it to yourself and keep them to yourself. :P
Take care.
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Also, aren't holy items emanating a special presence of a god, a piece of his/her power, a piece of themselves and would that not mean that Diaboli can't stand the Godly power. Gods are empowered by their believers and wouldn't that mean that the power of belief is in fact the power of the god which hurts the Diaboli. That would mean that the Diaboli are allergic to the power believing and therefore can't have a religion, believe.
And why would a race have a hereditary or a genetic penalty, if you will, to the "power of belief". Explain to me how religion and biology have crossed the paths in the case of Diaboli?
Thanks.
Neither do I, but it is a possibility in the PS universe. People say they're allergic to electricity, showing many symphtomes ti allergy when they're for example in the presence of a cell phone. We can not explain everything :)
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If there is no faith to begin with, there is nothing to give up, so the "except" distinction either isn't necessary at all or an addition of "except Diaboli, who never followed a god to begin with" would make more sense.
There is possibility that a writer wanted to keep it short. While showing that other races had other gods and gave up their faith in them, diaboli were stubborn because of some reason and did not want to learn worshiping any god. Like in: 'Everyone were learning (new) religion except Diaboli.
The point is there is nothing what way make you 100% certain Diaboli believe in any god. Simple as that. Accept it or be ignorant like you were, while telling me to scroll up. It is you who may be misunderstanding.
I'm sorry for making points about your english skills, but people don't make mistakes without a reason ;)
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/me applauds witchking
I liked your post and agree with all your points, especially the last bits ;)
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i have a fun story, obviously jibberish but well...
The Diaboli lived in a good land once, a beautiful land with flourishing wild life and amazing views. All of this was down to their god, Gradnes. However this god insisted on sacrifces to be made, the most beautiful of all the diaboli had to be offered up to him every season.
Drenad was a happy Diaboli, his life was good, all his many friends where in exelent health, he was royalty, next to become ruler of the land and to top it all off he was engaged to marry the second most beautiful woman in the whole of the land. However, he had been sheltered from the darker side of his god by his father and his father had failed to see the imense beauty in his sons wife to be. As you can assume, two seasons passed and so her time came, and so Drenad found out. However he could not accept it, he loved her more than anything else, everything became pointless without her. So he killed his father... became king, and as king had the right to over rule any law. This had never been a problem in the past as all the Diaboli had got on well, but now he refused to see to the gods wishes. Gradnes was anything but ammused, but as Drenad was king, the people where obliged to go along with him, fight his cause, and so came the fall of the Diaboli. Gradnes punished them, and he punished them harshly. His love for their beauty would not let his kill them all or disfigure them, but out of jealousy he cursed them so they could never worship another god, another god could never truly see their full beauty and if they even attempted it they would be severly weakend. and he destroyed their lands, he made great volcanoes rise from the ground, the rivers run red and a great cloud so they would never see the sky again. The diaboli, distrught with anger, mostly at themselves, where too ashamed to ever speak of how any of this came about again.
I love stories :D
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The point is there is nothing what way make you 100% certain Diaboli believe in any god. Simple as that. Accept it or be ignorant like you were, while telling me to scroll up. It is you who may be misunderstanding.
I'm sorry for making points about your english skills, but people don't make mistakes without a reason ;)
And what is your reason ?
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Of what?
If you are going to discuss something about me, better do it with me, not in thread of someone else? (i thought you will feel better if i i post a bit more than 2 words, it is trying to gues what you are going to start.
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Well, what about atheist, atheist is a religion as well,
I hope that thats a joke.
Well anyway... I'd like to ask some questions. Are the settings accepted as historical fact? If they were there would not be atheists as we are led to believe by character creation in Yliakum but Deists. An atheist in Yliakum in this case would be like a person in RL not believing that world war two happened.
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An atheist in Yliakum in this case would be like a person in RL not believing that world war two happened.
I only mention this because its pretty close to what you just mentioned.
An athiest in Yliaokum is also like someone who doesnt believe that the holocaust happened. These people do exist. If they didnt there wouldnt be laws against it in several EU countries. If a Diaboli doesnt believe in Talad or Laanx (but to me it doesnt seem like disbelief, its more like disregard) then that is what they think.
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Well, what about atheist, atheist is a religion as well,
I hope that thats a joke.
I don't think that's a joke.
However ridiculous it may sound, I have seen some works myself in which atheism is classified as a religion because "atheists can't prove a god doesn't exist, so it's a belief". I don't classify atheism as a religion myself though, as it's confusing and silly.
But on-topic again.
Diaboli don't like religion in any form, so it's obvious to me that they don't have a god.
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Atheism is the lack of a religion. Noone is a full atheist. In Richard Dawkins book, the God Delusion, he outlines the seven degrees of belief. It ranges from absoultly know that someting exists(A large proportion of our population when speaking of god.) to the same degree of not believing which is populated by very few if any. Anyone that believes with all their heart that there is no god is as delusional as one that believe there is.
Back to PS and away from RL... Are the settings Historic fact?
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An atheist in Yliakum in this case would be like a person in RL not believing that world war two happened.
I only mention this because its pretty close to what you just mentioned.
An athiest in Yliaokum is also like someone who doesnt believe that the holocaust happened. These people do exist. If they didnt there wouldnt be laws against it in several EU countries. If a Diaboli doesnt believe in Talad or Laanx (but to me it doesnt seem like disbelief, its more like disregard) then that is what they think.
WTF?? your both stretching your opions WAY to much..
okay.. i play the game as if im in real life.. and so far.. INGAME.. i havnt come on ANY signs of a holy presence.. so then i MUST infact be one of those RARE ppl that are STUPID.. well.. not stupid.. but ignorant enough to beleave the WWII never happend NOR the holacast.. RIGHT? WRONG! you cant say that.. unless both game gods make a visist to the plaza every week.. you can not expect a player playing a char. to play the char as if it belaved in a god JUST because..
my chars religion is athiest (and yes.. athiest is a religion.. just like "the force" but not stupid like it :P) why is my char athiest? he just doesnt beleave that a god made is race.. and no god could be around.. since he never seen a god.. not even an "angle?" (what would they be called? j/w) so..
saying that EVERYONE.. or.. rather that 99.9999999% of the game players have made a char that beleaves in a god.. is just b/s
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while in RL there may be 3 gropus of peole:
1% who know there is a god, but don't worship him
50% who know and worship
49% who don't believe and thus don't worship.
In Yliakum the situation would be different:
49% who know there is a god, but don't worship him
50% who know and worship
1% who don't believe and thus don't worship.
In Yliakum you just can't deny the facts some gods are around. Their presense, past and continued activity can't be denied, just like magic and the glyphs.
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In Yliakum you just can't deny the facts some gods are around. Their presense, past and continued activity can't be denied, just like magic and the glyphs.
explain... explain to my char who has had his family killed off by a nation's army that a god has shown him any activity? specialy with magic and that such out in life..
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err, are you by any chance making similiarities to a god of mercifulness? I gues it would count for the god of christians, but Laanx? She won't care about some mere peasant whos whole family was killed in some random way. Why should she? And you know, we don't have magic in RL, no innatural/not explainable things. So in Yliakum, it is not only easier to believe in something you won't see and you will more likely believe people who tell you what the god did for them once, as they have proofs.
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Aww, Idoru, thanks for your compliments! :D
Datruth, thanks as well, and you're welcome. :)
Neither do I, but it is a possibility in the PS universe.
Why is it a possibility in PS universe? Based on what specifically?
People say they're allergic to electricity, showing many symphtomes ti allergy when they're for example in the presence of a cell phone.
People say a lot of things, and showing symptoms to allergy does not equal an allergy. Here's an official answer by James Heffley Ph.D. to the question of "Is it possible to be allergic to electricity?":
In the sense that physicians define allergy, which is acknowledged to be a narrow definition, you really cannot be allergic to electricity. A true allergy must involve the reaction of a specific molecule with Immunoglobin E to release histamine. However, if you broaden the definition to include words such as idiosyncratic response or hypersensitivity, which can make you feel just as bad, it appears there are people who are "allergic" to electricity.
The answer goes on for quite a bit with more explanation, so if you like, you can read it here:
http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/column?oid=oid%3A116532 (http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/column?oid=oid%3A116532)
Hence, in a medical sense, you cannot be allergic to electricity. And even if you could be, electricity is a physical phenomenon - not a religion. So, I'm not sure how that example would even help.
When people say that they are "allergic" to religion, it is not in a biological sense. "Allergic" in this case simply means a dislike or a disbelief. Now, why should they physically and biologically suffer from anything related to any religion just because they don't believe in it or don't support it? I haven't seen any atheists in real-life burst into flames or suffer any damage after being sprayed with holy water.
How could Diaboli physically or even psychologically suffer from a "power of belief" or religion, if they didn't believe in it in the first place? Why should it affect them in any severely damaging way at all?
So, my question on religion vs biology still stands.
We can not explain everything
Where - in game or in real-life? You cannot explain everything in real-life because you did not create everything in real-life and nor should you have to explain. However, when you create a story, you can certainly explain at least something as major as a race's background, their god and religion, their possibilities and limitations etc.
i have a fun story, obviously jibberish but well...
The Diaboli lived in a good land once, a beautiful land with flourishing wild life and amazing views. All of this was down to their god, Gradnes. However this god insisted on sacrifces to be made, the most beautiful of all the diaboli had to be offered up to him every season.
Drenad was a happy Diaboli, his life was good, all his many friends where in exelent health, he was royalty, next to become ruler of the land and to top it all off he was engaged to marry the second most beautiful woman in the whole of the land. However, he had been sheltered from the darker side of his god by his father and his father had failed to see the imense beauty in his sons wife to be. As you can assume, two seasons passed and so her time came, and so Drenad found out. However he could not accept it, he loved her more than anything else, everything became pointless without her. So he killed his father... became king, and as king had the right to over rule any law. This had never been a problem in the past as all the Diaboli had got on well, but now he refused to see to the gods wishes. Gradnes was anything but ammused, but as Drenad was king, the people where obliged to go along with him, fight his cause, and so came the fall of the Diaboli.
Wait a minute, didn't you just say that sacrifices have never been a problem in the past "as all the Diaboli had got on well"? You didn't say that they lived in misery and were suffering due to the sacrifices demanded by Gradnes. Why would the whole race and nation suddenly take a new ruler's word, who has not even earned the trust of his people yet, over their god? You mean to tell me that they were afraid of their ruler more than their god? That they were more obliged to follow an inexperienced leader's wish than a god's wish? Unless they hated the sacrifices in the first place and waited for a leader to start some kind of a "mutiny", this doesn't sound believable at all.
Gradnes punished them, and he punished them harshly. His love for their beauty would not let his kill them all or disfigure them, but out of jealousy he cursed them so they could never worship another god, another god could never truly see their full beauty and if they even attempted it they would be severly weakend. and he destroyed their lands, he made great volcanoes rise from the ground, the rivers run red and a great cloud so they would never see the sky again. The diaboli, distrught with anger, mostly at themselves, where too ashamed to ever speak of how any of this came about again.
Gradnes punished the foolish leader, and he punished him harshly, as an example to all those who would ever dare to defy the god's wishes. A powerful demon emerged from the skies and carried Drenad to a great volcano, where his wretched body was consumed by the merciless lava.
I like stories too but seriously, for an evil god like Gradnes, it would make much more sense to punish Drenad rather than the whole race. Remove the leader and you remove the resistance. Besides, if he is a jealous god, he'd most likely try to prevent Diaboli from worshiping another god but not Gradnes rather than giving them up completely. And while they do worship him, he'd offer them all the protection they needed "for while his punishments are severe, his rewards are equally as great". Cursing them from any god, including Gradnes, would imply that there is no god more powerful than Gradnes because no god could lift that curse, and if he was such a jealous and most powerful god, he'd probably try to conquer all other gods and their respective races, including Yliakum, which I'm sure he was aware of once Diaboli traveled through a portal (he's jealous, remember?). And do you really see even a shred of anything to base this theory on in the PS history? ;)
Anyway, it's just one person's story, which is closer to a major stretch and speculation rather than a reasonable explanation, and it's certainly not part of PS history. C'mon, you already knew that. :)
Besides, if we are to believe that evil, hateful and jealous gods are capable of putting such curses on the races, why didn't Laanx, who couldn't convert Klyros, do the same thing to them? I'm sure someone is going to say that Laanx is "too weak" to put such a curse on a race or that "Talad would protect them".
Thanks.
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explain... explain to my char who has had his family killed off by a nation's army that a god has shown him any activity? specialy with magic and that such out in life..
First, a nation?
Second there is no alternative account of how things came to be. Unless your character is incapable of thought he would have found out through his upbringing or his own research that the gods are responcible for our creation and our own presence here. I challenge you to give an IC reason to refute the gods.
Edited to add: Get a dictonary and look up atheism.
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didnt this start with dioblio's religion comming in question? since they dont follow either religions then they wouldnt have been brainwashed.. er.. told about them untill some crazy.. er.. loony.. umm.. preist says something about something that THEY follow..
you say that presence is all around.. well if the char doesnt follow either religion then why would they ASSSUME that a god made him? all he knows was that his parents got together real close on night and sometime later he was born :) so his parents made him.. not a god (as far as he is concerned) with magic in his life (in game) what can you really say if you never heard about any gods untill you got to this place that you dont know? i mean.. no miracuse since you can cast heal and bam.. all better...
and your acting like religions nut would.. sept your pressing the game's made up religions on to my char \\o//.
to him.. he wouldnt have been faced with religion since hes a dibilio.. and he got here.. a bunch of ppl SAID that a god was here.. yet he never saw such a god..
"well god made the town" < no the workers made the town
"gods protect the town" < nope.. the gaurds do that
"gods gave you life!" < ha ha.. my parents made me
"god made the world and the first ppl so that 1-3 could happen" < prove it
"heres some written accounts of making of the first people" < how can a person write an account of a god making the very first person?
"heres some miracule accounts" < life infusion/ magic/ mages
come on.. give me another..
no god sightings
no provable texts
we have magic = no miraculs
we can fly = wings/ magic
we are here = parents
we have parents = so did they
what about the first? = did your god have parents? if so.. why is your gods parents the god? and why dont they have parents?
come on.. give me something.. something that would make my char belave.. act like your trying to convert me.. (in game.. not in rl.. i would deck ya in rl ;D)
"Talad and Laanx prayed to Vodùl to lure some races from the other gods and to bring them to Yliakum."
wouldnt that make vodul Talad and Laanx's god? so thus you all should follow Vodul :P
why would a god pray to someone? or rather something if they are infact gods? wouldnt they just magic what they wanted?
that would make Talad and Laanx lesser gods and Vodul the main god.. and THUS should be everyones god anyway :P
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wouldnt that make vodul Talad and Laanx's god? so thus you all should follow Vodul
Officially we don't know he/she exists IC
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In Yliakum you just can't deny the facts some gods are around. Their presense, past and continued activity can't be denied, just like magic and the glyphs.
what presence? what activity? ic i have never seen either of them.. and ooc i have seen talad on one time..
wouldnt that make vodul Talad and Laanx's god? so thus you all should follow Vodul
Officially we don't know he/she exists IC
even if he dont exsist ic it was writen in some text that both gods of both major reliagions prayed to him.. and if that is false.. then that would lead some to belave that the "holy texts" were also false and made by some radom smoe with a artse side so that still deducts beleave points either way..
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I have a strong new point to make that I challenge anyone to refute or even attempt to explain.
This is from PS history once again, in regards to Laanx trying to convert Klyros to follow him/her:
Laanx spoke, showing completely his true essence. - I'm Laanx - she said - and I'm your god.-
The creature gazed resentfully and silently, and then sat on a rock with its chin in its hands.
Seeing that the creature refused to follow his orders, Laanx became enraged and destroyed the creature by whispering a single word.
Let's see... Laanx was powerful enough to destroy a creature just by a single whisper, and Talad was not there to protect them. Whether it's because he was not aware of Klyros yet doesn't matter. The point is that Laanx was capable of doing that without Talad's or anyone's interference. Surely then, Laanx is powerful enough to put a curse on that race, is she not?
More from PS history:
During the following days, many other Klyros passed through the portal. Each time, Laanx tried to impose his will. Many of them were corrupted, tempted in many ways, or were destroyed or tortured, but none of them yielded to the god's will. It seemed their pride did not allow them to bend to any god.
Wait a minute, did I read this correctly? It didn't just say "their pride did not allow them to bend to Laanx", it said "to any god".
In fact, Laanx later taught Klyros a way to Yliakum and Talad, so they could cause trouble for him because of their "atheism":
Laanx saw inside them a splinter of the delirium that had taken possession of him and, even though he hated them for their indifference, he did not utterly destroy their race. Before leaving them to their destiny, he taught them the way to Yliakum, sure that they would create some troubles to Talad, whom he now considered an enemy.
So, Laanx only felt sorry enough for Klyros to not utterly destroy them, and was so sure that they wouldn't bend to any god's will that she sent them to cause trouble for Talad. But wait once again, how would Laanx know that Klyros didn't just deny Laanx personally and wouldn't end up following Talad? She is a god and she would know, you say? Wrong! If she is a god and she would know, she would've known that before she attempted to convert them to follow her. So, in fact, Laanx did NOT know!!! And if she did not know, surely, an evil god, who went as far as murdering multiple Klyros, would place some kind of an insurance on them or "curse" them, like Narure tried to imply with Diaboli, especially considering that she sent them directly to Talad to cause trouble for him.
If anything, PS history states that Klyros are just as much of being "atheists" as Diaboli, that is if we are to believe some peoples' suggestions that Diaboli are, in fact, "atheists". But yet Klyros are not punished for it in any way as a whole race.
This is exactly the point I was trying to make when noting the "except the Diaboli" quote. To anyone who believes that this quote is "just fine" and makes such a distinction because Diaboli did not have a faith or god in the first place - why isn't the same distinction made for the Klyros? After all, they would not bend to any god's will! You might say "because it's self-explanatory for Klyros". And why isn't it for Diaboli then? PS history clearly states that they disappeared whenever there was any talk of religion. Surely, it's self-explanatory too then, is it not?
In fact, the distinction with Diaboli proves that they did not give up the faith in their previous god, and that just like an earlier quote that the races were lured from other gods, and NOT "other places", proves that they have their own god that they worship.
Unless the whole story is one big "OOPS!".
Once again, I challenge anyone to refute this or attempt to give a reasonable explanation.
Thanks. :)
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I have a strong new point to make that I challenge anyone to refute or even attempt to explain.
This is from PS history once again, in regards to Laanx trying to convert Klyros to follow him/her:
Laanx spoke, showing completely his true essence. - I'm Laanx - she said - and I'm your god.-
The creature gazed resentfully and silently, and then sat on a rock with its chin in its hands.
Seeing that the creature refused to follow his orders, Laanx became enraged and destroyed the creature by whispering a single word.
;D someone messed up that quote
My arguament...
and again.. why would a person beleave only writing that can be just the stories of some joe? what if i wrote that i am god, and if i look at you you are dead.. if i see you you are dead.. yet i can talk to you all i want.. and nothing will happen to you? would you bealve that? a person that JUST arrives to the world (from player POV) or a person that arrives to the city that says such things.. better yet.. for me to beleave your logic.. (to beleave what a group of ppl says in an area and what is writen as text and belaved to be true.. is in fact true) then YOU MUST beleave that EVERY religion on earth (this is in rl mind you.. so take it persanly) is telling the truth.. and is saying factual things regaurdless of what you think. were you came from, or what you know.. that if i goto iran/iraq then i MUST worship allah since allah is the god said to be real, with groups saying he is.. and with texts saying he is.. AND.. the same would apply if i when to.. idk.. italy that GOD (chris.) is the god.. or if i goto chine. then budda or w/e it is..
dont say it doesnt apply.. cuz its the same thing.. your want everyone to have a realigion.. that follows what your char follows.. lets see it in the form of my char POV. its the same thing..
i was born in a household, no religion.. nothing, then move to a city that has 2-3 relgions, so 3 groups. each group says "o.. trust us.. we have a god.. and they dont.. look at this evidence", then shows you some papers.
is that enough for you to say "YEP the gods are real.. i can FEEL them.. i can SEE them.. they are EVERYWHERE!"
if you say yes.. your an idiot.. of course not..
with all your quotes.. they are writen accounts from the past.. not "OMG did you hear about john yesterday.. Laanx just spoke to him.. and POOF! he was gone!!" so disproved!!! ;D
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Gradnes punished them, and he punished them harshly. His love for their beauty would not let his kill them all or disfigure them, but out of jealousy he cursed them so they could never worship another god, another god could never truly see their full beauty and if they even attempted it they would be severly weakend. and he destroyed their lands, he made great volcanoes rise from the ground, the rivers run red and a great cloud so they would never see the sky again. The diaboli, distrught with anger, mostly at themselves, where too ashamed to ever speak of how any of this came about again.
Gradnes punished the foolish leader, and he punished him harshly, as an example to all those who would ever dare to defy the god's wishes. A powerful demon emerged from the skies and carried Drenad to a great volcano, where his wretched body was consumed by the merciless lava.
I like stories too but seriously, for an evil god like Gradnes, it would make much more sense to punish Drenad rather than the whole race. Remove the leader and you remove the resistance. Besides, if he is a jealous god, he'd most likely try to prevent Diaboli from worshiping another god but not Gradnes rather than giving them up completely. And while they do worship him, he'd offer them all the protection they needed "for while his punishments are severe, his rewards are equally as great". Cursing them from any god, including Gradnes, would imply that there is no god more powerful than Gradnes because no god could lift that curse, and if he was such a jealous and most powerful god, he'd probably try to conquer all other gods and their respective races, including Yliakum, which I'm sure he was aware of once Diaboli traveled through a portal (he's jealous, remember?). And do you really see even a shred of anything to base this theory on in the PS history? ;)
Anyway, it's just one person's story, which is closer to a major stretch and speculation rather than a reasonable explanation, and it's certainly not part of PS history. C'mon, you already knew that. :)
Besides, if we are to believe that evil, hateful and jealous gods are capable of putting such curses on the races, why didn't Laanx, who couldn't convert Klyros, do the same thing to them? I'm sure someone is going to say that Laanx is "too weak" to put such a curse on a race or that "Talad would protect them".
Thanks.
Different gods have different, powers... obviously i made the story up on a whim. But i have never actualy asked an evil god what he would do in such surcamstances. And seeing as Vodul is more powerful he could easily bring them through the portal without the notice of the lesser god.
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@Barthoiln:The magic thats there that you say clears up miracles. Created by Talad.
The 'Holy texts written by some joe' are the only historical accounts we have so we can therefore assume that it was recorded as being the same by all historians.
A household with no God? In a city with no god is it?
If the gods didn't create us then how did we get here? Can you give a reasonalbe account of how we got here? I don't think so since then your contradicting every historian that ever lived.
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@Barthoiln:The magic thats there that you say clears up miracles. Created by Talad.
The 'Holy texts written by some joe' are the only historical accounts we have so we can therefore assume that it was recorded as being the same by all historians.
A household with no God? In a city with no god is it?
If the gods didn't create us then how did we get here? Can you give a reasonalbe account of how we got here? I don't think so since then your contradicting every historian that ever lived.
wow.. you are stupid.. unless your referring to in the game.. and not rl.. which i woudl hope since this topic is already bordering on a cliff of off-topic, preachings.
how was my guy made? his pareants got together.. and he was born.. thier.. thats it..
and why not spin the same argument onto the god? what made the god? and w/e made the god should infact be god yes?
AND AGAIN.. with that logic.. your saying that if i talk to a historian.. that w/e they say is fact? so i goto.. oja.. and a historian says that some guy naMED Tippy is a god of.. Goxen a new religion.. that what he just said is infact true.. reguardless of anything i know or have done/seen. in game.. if your char heard that.. would he quit his religion and just join the new religion in oja? i dont think he would..
and how can you say that Talad made the magic if its magic? that would mean that the glyphs arnt made by the magic mages that sell them but that they just find them randomly yes? or rather that they are handed them by talad to sell for 100% profit?
your turn kiddo :)
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and how can you say that Talad made the magic if its magic? that would mean that the glyphs arnt made by the magic mages that sell them but that they just find them randomly yes? or rather that they are handed them by talad to sell for 100% profit?
Yeah :P more or less you just said a valid thing.
Does it make your whole reasoning uselles? ;P
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Magic (http://www.answers.com/magic) is not something created, it is discovered. Talad passed on the knowledge or discovered the way to produce magic spells.
As for the origen of races... lets not make this difficult. It is easy to answer, and the answer needs no more discussion, all races other than Kran were created outside of the PS world, period. We know nothing other than that so accept it as that, no records were brought forth and no information was offered by the gods, end of debate.
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someone messed up that quote
That's how it appears on the web site itself, I copy/pasted it directly from PS history. I too questioned that excerpt in a different thread a while ago, also bolding the "his" and the "she". ;)
and again.. why would a person beleave only writing that can be just the stories of some joe? what if i wrote that i am god, and if i look at you you are dead.. if i see you you are dead.. yet i can talk to you all i want.. and nothing will happen to you? would you bealve that?
I don't "believe" the writing, I simply read and question it, hence the whole point of this thread. And the writing is obviously written OOC (Out-of-Character) by Luca "Talad" Pancallo (or whomever wrote the original PS history years ago), and not "some joe". If the story was some "Sacred Text" available to everyone IC (In-Character), then everyone in Yliakum would be aware of the "Black Flame", would they not? Unless it's some kind of a "conspiracy" and everyone's keeping it a secret as if it was a taboo. Most likely, people will slowly be finding out about it through NPC/quest interaction and similar experiences.
PS history is nothing more than a Game Backstory. Go look up on the web what a "Game Backstory" means or go to as many MMORPG sites as possible and you'll see a very similar style of writing under the "Game Backstory" titles. Here is one example:
Game Backstory (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/gameBackstory/)
The whole point of it is to introduce players to a gaming world. Hence the word "Game" in it. If something is a sacred text, like a Bible, then it is usually clearly presented as such, and is also available in game, either in a single or multiple text writings/books.
Get it now, I hope? :)
a person that JUST arrives to the world (from player POV) or a person that arrives to the city that says such things.. better yet.. for me to beleave your logic.. (to beleave what a group of ppl says in an area and what is writen as text and belaved to be true.. is in fact true) then YOU MUST beleave that EVERY religion on earth (this is in rl mind you.. so take it persanly) is telling the truth.. and is saying factual things regaurdless of what you think. were you came from, or what you know.. that if i goto iran/iraq then i MUST worship allah since allah is the god said to be real, with groups saying he is.. and with texts saying he is.. AND.. the same would apply if i when to.. idk.. italy that GOD (chris.) is the god.. or if i goto chine. then budda or w/e it is..
You don't "just" arrive to the world, whether from a player POV or any other POV. You're supposed to read the Game Backstory to familiarize yourself with basic concepts, and your character itself didn't "just" arrive to a city either. He was supposed to have grown up in or around at least one of the present cultures, which you know as a player when you customize your character in the first place and choose his/her childhood experiences and activities, all of which affect his perceptions of the in-game world. So, I don't know where you got the idea that if you arrive to a different city, you suddenly must worship their popular god. If you grew up in a Xacha village, for example, it's very likely that you'd be quite familiar with Laanx religion, and if you grew up in a Kran village, it's very likely that you'd be familiar with Talad's religion. It doesn't mean that you immediately change your religions when traveling between different cities within PlaneShift world or that you don't question either religion while growing up or after having grown up.
dont say it doesnt apply.. cuz its the same thing..
It doesn't apply because it's not the same thing. :D
your want everyone to have a realigion.. that follows what your char follows.. lets see it in the form of my char POV. its the same thing..
It's not the same thing and no, I don't. Where did I say that I want everyone to have a religion? Don't twist what I said. What I want, and I already stated it clearly, is to understand. For example, are Diaboli really "atheists"? Are they banned from following one or any religion? If not, how would it make sense from an RP perspective, considering things I've already mentioned? Why do they have a penalty to holy/blessed/sacred places and objects? Do they already have a god they've never given up their faith in and are they tied to him/her or are they free to worship another god or no one at all?
Yes, let's see it from your char POV. Just because he may have grown up in a culture that follows a particular god, does not mean he isn't free to choose whether he wants to follow that god, another god or no god at all, eventually. Life never stops changing like that.
i was born in a household, no religion.. nothing, then move to a city that has 2-3 relgions, so 3 groups. each group says "o.. trust us.. we have a god.. and they dont.. look at this evidence", then shows you some papers.
is that enough for you to say "YEP the gods are real.. i can FEEL them.. i can SEE them.. they are EVERYWHERE!"
No but it gives you a freedom to choose at this point whether you want to continue being an "atheist" or decide to worship their god and see if it gives you any benefits, rewards, protection etc. That is the whole point, which you are missing! ;)
if you say yes.. your an idiot.. of course not..
Don't try to control my responses with pre-written insults. You're a nobody to me, so as I said it to someone else before - shove it to yourself and keep it to yourself! :P
with all your quotes.. they are writen accounts from the past.. not "OMG did you hear about john yesterday.. Laanx just spoke to him.. and POOF! he was gone!!" so disproved!!!
No, they are part of the Game Backstory, designed to introduce a player to the world of PlaneShift, so you didn't disprove anything. 8)
I'd like to make a statement just to make sure there are no future misunderstandings or preconceptions on the points I'm making - I'd like neither to force a religion on every race in PS nor ban them from one or any. I'm trying to figure out whether, according to the backstory, there are already such restrictions, and the reasons behind them, so I can later decide whether it makes sense in the first place, taking into account everything the backstory states, and whether I'm then comfortable with choosing a particular race based on that. And if it ever becomes a question of how I feel about religion in real life, it's simple really - I don't automatically dismiss the idea of a god and religion, and I don't automatically dismiss a solely scientific explanation either. I listen to both sides of the story and question things. That's the most interesting way to go about it, in my opinion.
Different gods have different, powers...
Very convenient, isn't it?
Apparently not so different in the case of Gradnes and Laanx anyway...
Besides, a god in an official PS history vs an imaginary god in some person's speculation?
This is from your own quote:
Gradnes punished them, and he punished them harshly. His love for their beauty would not let his kill them all or disfigure them, but out of jealousy he cursed them so they could never worship another god
And this:
and he destroyed their lands, he made great volcanoes rise from the ground, the rivers run red and a great cloud so they would never see the sky again.
Let's see - both, Gradnes and Laanx have the power to murder a race (Laanx can kill with a single whisper) but do not out of feeling sorry for them, both can transform a land into something else, both can put curses on others (Laanx cursed all of Yliakum), both are evil, hateful and jealous. But yet Laanx does not put an exclusive curse on Klyros, even though she has no way of knowing for sure that they won't worship Talad but your imaginary god in an imaginary story does.
My examples and reasoning make sense because they are logical and are based on the existing events described in PS history rather than just making up stories out of thin air as I go along, as long as they suit me. Once again, this is PS history vs a made up story to suit someone else's beliefs. I can make up a story where Gradnes doesn't even exist. At least I'm asking for an official answer rather than making up silly and not very credible stories as a defense. :)
Besides, explain to me what your god Gradnes represents. Is it a representation of a "merciful" god? Is it a manifestation of something particular? Is it a representation of an "evil", "hateful", "jealous" god? Give me one good reason for why Gradnes would act differently than Laanx in the same situation, considering the already mentioned similarities. He's different? Why is he different? What made him different? Give me something reasonable. "Because I said so" or "Because I wrote him that way" isn't good enough, it's a cop out, and any good writer would know that.
obviously i made the story up on a whim. But i have never actualy asked an evil god what he would do in such surcamstances. And seeing as Vodul is more powerful he could easily bring them through the portal without the notice of the lesser god.
You don't need to ask an evil god what he would do in such circumstances. You wrote the story, remember? You mean you don't know why you wrote it that way? Besides, one only needs to look at an existing example of one (Laanx) to know what an evil god might do in a similar situation - it's reasonable. Or at least ask a story writer, who wrote Diaboli, Laanx, Klyros etc. It's a reasoning out of a single person's mind, which is why I'm asking questions here. You have to agree that it's a lot more credible to base my reasoning on the existing writings that are part of the official PS history than pulling things out of a thin air just to try and justify something.
As for Vodul, we only know for sure that he is more powerful than Laanx and Talad, and we also know for sure that other gods are more powerful than Laanx and Talad. But we don't know for sure if Vodul is more powerful than other gods. Luring the races from other gods does not imply that he is more powerful. If he was, he wouldn't "lure" the races, he'd "make" them move to Yliakum. It isn't unusual for gods in different fantasy settings to mess with an opposing god's followers, to seduce them or to confuse them. Does not mean that he is more powerful than the gods themselves.
And If he is, indeed, the most powerful god in PlaneShift universe (which is debatable), then why didn't he lift the curse from Diaboli? He was trying to help Laanx and Talad, after all, especially being so fond of Laanx. Should've been peanuts for him to do. See, again, this is reasonable, logical, and it makes sense.
I want to address something else from your story:
and he destroyed their lands, he made great volcanoes rise from the ground, the rivers run red and a great cloud so they would never see the sky again. The diaboli, distrught with anger, mostly at themselves, where too ashamed to ever speak of how any of this came about again.
Let me see - Diaboli were so distraught about this and left their "harsh" land that as soon as they arrive to Yliakum, they start building structures with Vulcan style architecture that looks like either an erupting volcano, a flowing lava, or all of the above?
If you were "abducted by aliens" and then let go, would the first thing you did be build a house that looks like a flying saucer, and your bedroom that looks like an operating room, and your bed that looks like an operating table?
Yes, they were distraught, indeed...
and why not spin the same argument onto the god? what made the god? and w/e made the god should infact be god yes?
Not sure if you're asking in game or in real life. In game, a writer made a god, hopefully based on something rather than a random cop out. In real life, if god truly exists, who knows? Maybe a god just appeared out of nothingness? When people talk about "The Big Bang" theory, it always comes down to "but what made the initial matter from which the explosion happened?" or "where did the energy for the explosion come from?", and before that, and before that, yadda yadda? What if the very first thing, whether it's a god or universe is just something that was there? Even if the very starting point is nothingness? What if "nothingness" got "bored"? Anyway, no one can tell for sure one way or another.
AND AGAIN.. with that logic.. your saying that if i talk to a historian.. that w/e they say is fact? so i goto.. oja.. and a historian says that some guy naMED Tippy is a god of.. Goxen a new religion.. that what he just said is infact true.. reguardless of anything i know or have done/seen. in game.. if your char heard that.. would he quit his religion and just join the new religion in oja? i dont think he would..
If it's a multiple witness account of something, then it's as close to a fact as you can get. Even if it's not a pure 100% fact, it's probably still more credible than a single person's theories. And I'm not talking about religion here, just regular history. Of course, it can be affected by the victors, if it's a history describing an outcome of a war. So, the only alternative is to travel back in time. Can you? No. You have to draw conclusions (OR doubts!) on what's available. As for religion, I have my doubts in real life, I question both, religious and scientific explanation of life creation and universe.
and how can you say that Talad made the magic if its magic? that would mean that the glyphs arnt made by the magic mages that sell them but that they just find them randomly yes? or rather that they are handed them by talad to sell for 100% profit?
According to PS Game Backstory, Talad forged the magic into a suitable form for mortals. "Hydlaa" - the most powerful glyph, has already existed without Talad's creation. And yes, mortals in PlaneShift find glyphs randomly all over, and no one knows how they appear, at least according to PS backstory, description, game guide etc.
As for the origen of races... lets not make this difficult. It is easy to answer, and the answer needs no more discussion, all races other than Kran were created outside of the PS world, period.
No, Kran AND Lemurs were created inside the Yliakum, not just Kran. Did you read PS history?
We know nothing other than that so accept it as that, no records were brought forth and no information was offered by the gods, end of debate.
We know much more than that from the Game Backstory. And once again - those who don't ask any questions, never learn anyhing. You go ahead and accept what you are told as a fact because "someone said so" but I won't. When an author is asked the kinds of questions I ask and the answer is basically - "Because I said so" or "It just is, there is no big reason" or "We just wanted it that way, there is no explanation", it's a sign of a very weak story. Great stories that were written with a lot of care never make an author get offended and give cop out answers like those. They might say something similar to, "These beings/god represents a darker side of a human nature, their fears, nightmares, and horrors personified". Of course, Luca or anyone involved in writing the story and settings hasn't answered, so I won't put those words into their mouths. I only posted this to make a point to LARAGORN.
As for when we end this discussion is for us and not you to decide. We have free will and can make our own decisions. If you personally don't want to participate, feel free to leave this thread any time, no one's holding a gun to your head.
Thanks. :)
EDIT: What I'm asking is very reasonable. I'm not asking the writers or anyone to explain the creation of PlaneShift universe or every single little thing. A lot of what I mentioned above were just examples and to make a point. Sure, there are some things that can't be explained even in a fantasy setting. However, I'm asking a very valid question, largely based on PS history itself, which most successful and interesting MMORPG story writers either already have or can give a reasonable explanation for in a similar situation. And when you take various PS backstory contradictions and plot holes into account in regards to my questions, it becomes even more important to know the answer. It's not like I'm asking to explain the meaning of life here, even if it's limited only to PS universe. The answer itself can significantly impact the RP experience and choices that my character makes, even if I stick with Diaboli only. But it's important for every race in PS. C'mon, something as basic as races surely must have a good explanation behind their traits and peculiarities, and even a basic history rather than just "oh, they just came through portal". Thanks!
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People need to remember this is just a GAME, if you put this much effort into real life you will be verry successful.
At the time of my last post, I had a little too much happy juice in me :D so exuse my mistakes on the history part.
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People need to remember this is just a GAME, if you put this much effort into real life you will be verry successful.
Exactly, this is just a game, which is why you shouldn't have gotten offended at the whole discussion in the first place. Don't take things so seriously!
Besides, who said it was an effort? One man's effort is another man's natural ability. 8) My original post wasn't that much "effort" by anyone's standards. It was small enough and to the point. The whole thing with Diaboli was plainly obvious to me from the start.
Having said that, you need to put an effort into anything, if you want to be successful, be it a game or real life, which is why there are crappy games and there are great games. A successful game and an effort go hand in hand. You can't refute that.
By the way, I'm very touched that you're concerned about my real life. ;)
At the time of my last post, I had a little too much happy juice in me :D so exuse my mistakes on the history part.
Sure sure... Or maybe you didn't put enough effort into reading the backstory. :P
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wow.. you are stupid.. unless your referring to in the game.. and not rl.. which i woudl hope since this topic is already bordering on a cliff of off-topic, etc.
How could I have been refering to RL? I refered to magic and Talad.
AND AGAIN.. with that logic.. your saying that if i talk to a historian.. that w/e they say is fact? so i goto.. oja.. and a historian says that some guy naMED Tippy is a god of.. Goxen a new religion.. that what he just said is infact true.. reguardless of anything i know or have done/seen. in game.. if your char heard that.. would he quit his religion and just join the new religion in oja? i dont think he would..
That is absurd. If historians told catholics that budda founded a religion in China would they convert? Thats a stupid argument.
and how can you say that Talad made the magic if its magic? that would mean that the glyphs arnt made by the magic mages that sell them but that they just find them randomly yes? or rather that they are handed them by talad to sell for 100% profit?
your turn kiddo :)
Someone has already explained this to you. Talad did make the magic. People do stumble across it in nature.
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True, to quote myself:
From the settings:
Talad gave up any hope to be reconciled with the old friend and, now alone, turned his thoughts to the people left in the town they had created. He called it "Hydlaa", the name of the most powerful glyph, that Vodùl had revealed to Laanx and that led Talad to ignore prudence to satisfy his pride. Waiting for the day when the other peoples would come, he forged magical power into many shapes, suitable to be used by the mortals to help them to survive underground: he created the Glyphs.
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In other words, no one knows the answers to any of my valid core questions so far. :)
Perhaps, the only way to answer them is if Luca (or even "Darkmoon") eventually reads this and for once stands up for the story he believes in, unless the story doesn't have a very solid foundation to begin with.
I was tempted to email Luca directly but seeing some forum posts where someone's emails went unanswered for weeks, months or at all, even in regards to a team application, I decided that a forum post would be a better alternative for starters.
On the other hand, it seems that some people post under the assumption that PlaneShift story/setting writers are incapable of making mistakes and base their speculative answers around that. It seems to be very unpopular with some people to question anything in relation to PlaneShift, if it makes it look bad even a slightest bit. I call that close-minded. Fortunately, not everyone is like that.
I think I will gracefully leave it at that to make a point and not escalate it into a flame war.
Take care. 8)
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I've been thinking about it. If their problem were due to a curse, unless the curse was given by a more powerful god, Talad and Laanx should be able to remove it. I have other theories, but I'm going to discuss the curse first.
I don't think the curse theory is correct, but it is a possibility. The power issue is mostly self explanatory, and Laanx and Talad are some of the younger (youngest?) gods, so they can't be expected to out-power the more experienced ones (they couldn't even use magic until Vodul taught them, for Jimmy's sake!). One glitch is whether you can put that much power into such a simple curse. However, if Laanx cursed Yliakum with little effect (that I can see), maybe a curse isn't such an easy thing to do. Or maybe a curse isn't something you "put" on someone, but something you "hold" on them. As in, the god that cursed them is actively maintaining it, so to reverse it would be like removing a wrestler's hold on somebody and then keeping them away until they give up or are defeated, as opposed to unlocking a jail cell.
Another possibility is the biological or spiritual sensors that normally detect a god's presence and feel soothed, protected, or empowered, or else disturbed, frightened, and weak (depending on the god), could be reversed in the Diaboli. So the force normally perceived as soothing actually disturbs the Diaboli. The force itself doesn't have to be good or evil, just a type of magical or spiritual energy, similar to how there are magical ways. Like if Laanx and Talad operate on one magical "frequency" range, and maybe some other gods operate on another. Those other gods would probably disturb the other residents of Yliakum, but be soothing to the Diaboli. It could be a "sweet-spot" or a "sour-spot". What I mean is that maybe the particular "frequencies" that are felt as soothing are just one small range and the rest are not, or the other way around. An example of the latter is that certain audio frequencies annoy me much more than others, sometimes to the extent of causing pain (either to me or the source :devil:). Meanwhile, other people don't notice.
A third possibility is that the negative effects are due to the Diaboli's own practices. Maybe they indulge in some form of magic that makes other magic hurt them. Or maybe they are filled with a type of magic that causes pain or sapps energy when displaced. What that means is they are normally filled with "x" magic. If they attempt to wield or are hit by an object with "y" magic, some of the "y" magic is transferred to them. For this to happen, some "x" magic would have to exit them. If the "x" magic hurts them as it leaves, then we have a solution to our problem. Well, a partial solution, because the reason they are filled with the "x" magic hasn't been revealed. It could be a way to keep them loyal (either to their god or their form of magic, or the dispenser of the magic). Or it could be that that type of magic has some benefit to outweigh the cost, such as their "gorgeous, perfectly shaped bodies" and charisma. I'd be tempted to say that it helps their resistance to elemental spells, but that is supposidly from their "deep knowledge in that area of magic". It could be a contributing factor though.
Also with that last possibility, maybe their society or the god(s) they didn't give up punishes them for hanging around temples for other gods. They'd avoid those places, because later on there would be a good chance of their suffering. They could even be disowned or executed for such an infraction. That doesn't explain the susceptibility to holy weapons though.
A more remote possibility is that they distrust the gods, possibly from some previous letdown, thus their discomfort in temples and such. The effectiveness of holy weapons could be due to a kind of "placebo effect", where they believe the magic will harm them and because of it their bodies' defense systems weaken. Or they could loath such items so much that touching one has a deep psychological impact. It doesn't say that the holy weapons do physical damage, just that they are "devastating against them". The devastation could occur when contact with a holy blade causes the Diaboli to have involuntary shudders, or even just become distracted by the idea that such a thing just touched them. The effects could begin even before they are hit, with the knowledge that the opponnant is using a holy weapon eating at them and making them act with less (or too much) care.
I agree with the argument that the history is supposed to be fact (though possibly unknown IC). I have trouble accepting the statement about them giving up a prior god though, because it can technically be read and intended to be either way. Yes, it could (and should) be clearer, but that could be human error. Just look at the even more blatant errors. I'm not arguing it either way, just saying that you probably shouldn't give much weight to it unless the writer clarifies the issue, because it is a very easy mistake to make.
Along the lines of what is fact and what isn't, the bit about their homeland being a "burning land...." is actually "A popular tradition". The history doesn't come right out and say what the place was like, just what a major in-game theory is. That part really doesn't matter, I just thought I'd mention it. It's the next part that matters slightly (and only slightly). In that same in-game-theory way, it says that "Some sages believe they originated in a distant, unexplored universe", which could lend validity to the ideas about the "magical frequencies" or exotic forms of magic, if those sages are in fact correct. Like I said, not very important, but something to think about.
Personally, I think the Diaboli distrust the gods and prefer to be independant. That is more in-tune with their character. They probably lived on some world torn by inter-god wars, where they were used as pawns. The descriptions of their world could stem from the world-tearing effects of such a war, and the blood of the innocent casualties. If they had to be very cautious there, it would also account for their view of Yliakum as a paradise and their tendency to not settle down. The loss of life could also have impacted their rather free way of making new Diaboli and Ynnwn, because they would have needed to replace the casualties. I attribute the effectiveness of holy weapons to my "frequency" theory, specifically the "sour spot" version, which goes in with the distant universe idea.
In that case, a Diaboli could follow Talad, Laanx, or the Black Flame (if he/she knows about it), but there would be the risk that the god's power would harm them, and the risk that the other Diaboli would disown them for associating with a god. Both may be more than that particular Diaboli can take, which means only the strong ones (or the ones that enjoy misery) would worship Yliakum's gods. If they did, though, they may recieve better treatment from the god itself, because of the sacrifices they are making to support it.
Well, that's my two tria. Let the non-childish, well-thought-out tearing-up begin. Though the childish stuff is good for a laugh once in a while :D