PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Narure on January 14, 2007, 03:01:19 pm
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From what i can gather glyphs can be on any object. So i am propsing that wizards with an extreeme knowledge in a way should be able to have glyphs burnt or tattooed onto a body part, the hand for example. This would help the pickpocting argument because powerful wizards would have their powerful glyphs litteraly on them. I would also make alot of wizards rps make more sense when they make a fire ball or such appear when they arent holding a physical glyph.
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I thought glyphs were some sort of stones granted power by Talad. Making use of the crystal I believe. That would mean we don't make glyphs ourselves we find them and purify them for use. Putting stones in different objects like swords for example would be possible I suppose but tatooing it?
*edit*
Waiting for the day when the other peoples would come, he forged magical power into many shapes, suitable to be used by the mortals to help them to survive underground: he created the Glyphs.
Doesn't seem to be limited to stones and crystals, but still a tatoo seems a bit hard unless a glyph would keep it's magical powers even when grinded to the point you can put it in ink.
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I always got the impression that Glyphs were both divine and natural, meaning mortals couldn't make them.
Or at least, if we did make glyphs they would be synthetic and not as effective as natural ones.
Also, the flat surface with a symbol engraved on it seems to be important - breaking the symbol probably releases the power.
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I thought glyphs where just the symbols?
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Glyphs are the base of every spell. They can be found in nature with no real explanation - no one know exactly why they form, but when some type of energy is strongly present in one place, then a glyph can appear. Glyphs can appear as marks on very different materials from a leaf to the fur of an animal, and usually of any type of rock. Powerful wizards knows where and how to extract glyphs from nature, and they usually transfer this power to magical black stones, that are small enough to carry around.
During the centuries many glyphs have been found and studied and so the wizard learn how to recognize those. Wizards discovered that each glyph can create a spell effect and that many glyphs can be combined to obtain greater effects. To simplify casting of spells the glyphs are associated to a concept and wizards combine those concepts to form new spells. When the spell is cast the wizard must have the glyphs at hand, in his backpack or in the pockets of his robe. Glyphs are not consumed during casting. The caster focuses his mind to a particular concept and drags energy from the glyph.
The glyphs do not transfer onto the skin, although as you read they may appear on the fur of an animal (presumably one no longer attached to its owner). The stones that the natural glyphs are transfered onto are magical themselves, so it's not only the glyphs that have power but their carrier stones as well. I don't think a glyph can be transfered just onto any material.
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A glyph is just a symbol and that is why they can appear anywhere. This is just the meaning of the word without regard to the game. In terms of game mechanics it may be that only naturally occuring ones or only the ones created by Talad have any power but that involves implimentation details. I find it hard to believe that Talad waved his hand at the land and all of a sudden all the functional glyphs that exist were created just waiting to be found but this could very well be the proper in context origin.
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So if they appear where there is an abundance of power i dont see why they can appear on the skin? And what is so special about other animals fur that it isnt similar to that of an enkidukai?
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I thnk you would have to born with such a glyph an your skin. Not get it. You would be most likely considered as choisen by the god.
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I think it might be possible for them to appear on skin but I would guess that they are like a birth mark then, not a tattoo. This means that they'd be present from birth and not able to be tattooed on or made to appear in whatever manipulative way.
I would say these are extremely, extremely rare though *hopes now that his words won't trigger the creation of a bunch of uberpowerful characters with glyph birthmarks*
Ack, Nikodemus beat me to it.
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It may be that there is a difference between glyphs and Glyphs. A glyph may be just a random coloration in the shape of the symbol of a Glyph, perhaps imparting some succeptability to that particular power, and a Glyph is a magical item created by Talad that has the shape embedded in a crystalling structure bound up with the power of the appropriate way. Thus your pet groffel might have a discoloration on his skin in the shape of a weakness Glyph and, say, if it was a darker color than the surrounding skin it would offer your pet some innate resistance to the weakness spell, if it was lighter the spell might be more effective when cast upon him. This is of course pure speculation on my part but it seems to make sense.
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It would seem to me that the crafter desiring a glyph in a weapon/skin/item/location would just "highly concentrate" the desired energy - focusing it at the appropriate location with the required intensity - and a glyph may form. I say "may" because I'm sure there'd be a good chance of failure.
One would need to be a highly skilled caster/crafter/whatever, but I don't see why a glyph couldn't be formed anywhere one chose.
Araye
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I tend to agree but this idea seems to fly in the face of Talad being the creator of all glyphs. Do you take this to mean that Talad has decided which shapes can funnel power i.e the set of all glyphs(symbols), and anyone can draw the shape and possibly funnel the appropriate power into it? Thus Talad has created all the possible glyphs but their manifestations (Glyphs--items of power) are of a more prosaic origin?
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One would need to be a highly skilled caster/crafter/whatever, but I don't see why a glyph couldn't be formed anywhere one chose.
Well, I personally get the feeling that glyphs can't just be transferred onto any material you choose. The "magical black stones" mentioned may be the only carriers capable of holding them once they are removed from their "birthplace," so to speak. Moreover, no mortal creates or forms glyphs. Glyphs are naturally-occurring, so you can't just "concentrate" power anywhere and make them appear.
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Well they may be naturally occuring because the energy is naturally concentrated at a particular location. Just like gold (and other rare elements) collects into "veins" in quartz. Maybe they appear on an animal's fur/teeth/liver because of the animal's diet - similar to a pearl. I don't mean to suggest that "man" can create them from scratch (ie. new types of glyphs (then again, maybe they can?)) - but man could have discovered how to concentrate the energy. Talad in creating them may have defined the set of physics that allow their concentration by mortals. So in the beginning only Talad was capable of creating them, but now that the cat is out of the bag (the laws of physics that are required to create/use them) anyone that studies and learns the secret can do it.
Alchemists have studied how to transmute one element into another since the word alchemy was defined. We are only now able to do this (in VERY small quanties I might add). This was impossible 50 years ago and thought to be only capable "by God". Science marches on.
Araye
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I don't mean to suggest that "man" can create them from scratch (ie. new types of glyphs (then again, maybe they can?)) - but man could have discovered how to concentrate the energy.
Except that's not how this works at all.. (http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/1698/happycbh5.gif) As already stated:
They can be found in nature with no real explanation - no one know exactly why they form, but when some type of energy is strongly present in one place, then a glyph can appear.
Can appear. There is no certain knowledge on how glyphs are "created" in nature. What you are saying isn't possible in the game setting.
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Could they not be put into wepons. like where you hold (the hilt i think its called) but how big are these thins neways?
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They are small stones - you can hold several in the palm of your hand, I think. But again, they can't be transferred onto just any material. So placing them on whatever item purely out of convenience doesn't work.
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hmm there obviously a difference between putting the power on the blade and putting the stone that channels the energy in the blade when forging it like when you put a jewel in.
Having a blade be created with a glyph inbedded to easier slice through magical barriers when you hold it? A glyph only needs to be near you to work so being inside a weapon that is being held should be close enough to work should it not?
If glyphs somehow aren't inbedded I wonder how you explain weapons like the "Icy" dagger and the "Dark" dagger. I would say the effectiveness of these weapons seems to have been enhanced by a magical enhancement. A glyph inbedded seems more logical then to say energy is somehow stored in the weapon by an enchantment, becuase that way the magic should become less over time.
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Many weapon smiths and crafters are usually practitioners of the Red Way - and they do indeed "enhance" items, no glyph-embedding required. But just having a glyph in a sword doesn't mean that you're all set to go and your sword is somehow more powerful. You still need to work the actual magic, so just slicing with the sword without doing anything else isn't going to... well, do anything else. I don't see how names like "icy" or "dark" need to have anything to do with glyphs - and I see nothing wrong with magical enhancement dissipating over time :] More demand for our crafters!
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This sounds like a question for the devs as there is obviously not enough publicly known. One wonders if you examined a ring of the familiar (or whatever it is called) would you find glyphs etched upon it, if not a small Glyph embedded in it. Will it ever be possible to reverse engineer such an item? I think it unlikely through game mechanics but such a thing should be possible to a craftsman (jeweler and mage) of sufficient skill. One thing I think a lot of people find frustrating is that knowledge is handed down in dribs and drabs and there is little to go on to try to discover things for yourself. This is not meant to be a criticism, just a statement of fact, as I cannot see any other way the system could work without giving away the farm, so to speak. Perhaps others would see it differently.
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Karyuu,
I don't read the statement, "no one knows exactly why they form" to mean no one knows literally. I see it as more artistic expression. I also see it as a convenient way for the author to get out of going into great detail that s/he doesn't understand themself (at the time of the writing).
To take things so literal is fundamentalism at its fullest. But if that's how you wish to read it, ok. I myself would inquire of the author for clarity. I don't see my proposal as sacrilege, whether it is correct or not. I don't think it is right for you to dismiss it outright because it disagrees with your interpretation of "right". I just made a suggestion of how it "could work".
Araye
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Araye, I am by no means trying to glorify the author nor considering your opinions as "sacrilege." There's no need to distort my position. However, there are somethings that we already definitely know about the world that leaves no room for interpretation. Can man create new glyphs? No. Can man concentrate power and make a glyph appear? No again. Glyphs are found and harvested, and a good comparison is herbs. Their rarity is of course far greater and you require extremely intimate knowledge of where glyphs can be located to gather them, but gather them "in the wild" you must. You cannot raise a glyph garden, so to speak.
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Glyphs are found and harvested, and a good comparison is herbs.
Not really, you can grow herbs. I'd say a better comparision is gold, because gold cant be 'made'. Would it be possible for a freak accident where someone stumbles into a source of great power and is glyphalised.
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You're right, that's a much better comparison :) I guess I'm fixated on herb gathering at the moment. I don't think a living thing can be "glyphalised," however. Glyphs are magical symbols that usually appear by a source of great power, but nothing gets transformed into a glyph.
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I didnt quite mean that. More to do with the glyphs appearing on animal fur, could a glyph appear on a character as part of a rare event or extreemly hard to aquire quest?
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Oops, then I misunderstood - sorry! That's not something I would know. A question more for Darkmoon or Talad.
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Pray tell, Karyuu, why arest thou fixated on gathering herbs? Is there a reason for that fixation? ... and just to stay OT: According to the settings information it doesnt sound like glyphs can appear on people. But I have no problem if they do and it might be interesting.
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hmm well aslong as it's not suddenly an uber glyph, but a glyph the rest simply has in his inventory I don't really mind the idea of an enki with glyphs on his fur.
That would definately give some status to mages of high level if they would be able to do that at a certain level. Have the mastermage walk around with all kinds of symbols. The more he has the more powerfull he is.
But I agree also it doesn't seem to be part of the setting as I see it like glyphs take a while to form most likely so there is a chance it would appear on rocks and plants who remain at that powerpoint for a certain amount of time.
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But I agree also it doesn't seem to be part of the setting as I see it like glyphs take a while to form most likely so there is a chance it would appear on rocks and plants who remain at that powerpoint for a certain amount of time.
That's on theory. But we do know it may appear on animal skin. Animals do move the same way as people, is if it appears there, it may apper on people's skin too. But also bone, muscle, it is so that you can't just see it, but you know.
But i would like to say one thing as clear as possible: Anyone who is so excited about such a feature, should forget about it at all. While glyphs don't appear often and the fact we may have a lot of them, is because they were gathered since long time and cumulating since then. No quests and if you will be lucky to see such a mage, don't expec to see his whole skin in glyphs. One glyph, maybe powerfull, but nothing more. Unless that guy was choisen by some god, but then don't expect you being that guy, because most likely you aren't good enough RPer.
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animal fur
You might feel thats nitpicking but do keep in mind that hair and so also fur is dead material. This would limit it to enkidukai and none of the other races.
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animal fur
You might feel thats nitpicking but do keep in mind that hair and so also fur is dead material. This would limit it to enkidukai and none of the other races.
But you do realise a fur is not a single object? ^^
Or are you saying that a glyph fits inside a single... "hair" (what is the damn word? ;P) Tiny. Also, it would fall appart when the "hair" would grow, as the "glyph carrier" must be very durable, as we know that destroying it we have explossion. I thought it is easy to figure out.
I also suppose such glyphs would be painfull, especially at childhood, as while the rest of the body grows, the glyph carried doesn't.
Or you mean't a pile of "hairs" ? But what if one of the "hairs" fall appart? Glyph carrier must be one object.
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I have come to think. If carrying glyphs at your body works, it might work just as well to hold them inside your body. I actually see no reason why embedding glyphs with the help of some kind of "medical" operation. The only things that speak against it would be heavy loss of blood as well as a (probably) pretty high mortality rate.
[/nonsensualstatement]
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animal fur
You might feel thats nitpicking but do keep in mind that hair and so also fur is dead material. This would limit it to enkidukai and none of the other races.
But you do realise a fur is not a single object? ^^
Or are you saying that a glyph fits inside a single... "hair" (what is the damn word? ;P) Tiny. Also, it would fall appart when the "hair" would grow, as the "glyph carrier" must be very durable, as we know that destroying it we have explossion. I thought it is easy to figure out.
I also suppose such glyphs would be painfull, especially at childhood, as while the rest of the body grows, the glyph carried doesn't.
Or you mean't a pile of "hairs" ? But what if one of the "hairs" fall appart? Glyph carrier must be one object.
The hairs could be glued together with enamel or some kind of gooey concoction, to make it like a hard surface. But that doesn't seem very natural...
And Niko makes a good point about the initial topic - if you tatoo a glyph onto yourself, what happens when your skin sags or stretches, and the glyph is distorted?
[/nonsensualstatement]
You just keep telling yourself that...
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Since when can you tatto glyphs onto yourself?
The fact that you put a picture of a glyph symbol onto your skin doesn't mean it'll get magical all of a sudden.
You wouldn't be able to use it anyway, you need to use a glyph stone.
If I'm wrong I will tattoo one huge energy glyph onto my body, making me incredibly powerful...
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Sorry for not reading the whole thread before posting, just adding my own two trias here. Basically, I think the issue of pickpocketing glyphs could be mitigated by making the glyph bags soul-bound so that they cannot be taken off the owner's body.
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It could be as I suggested that naturally or artificially created replicas of the symbol might give a small susceptibility or resistance to that glyph's effect. The determination of which might be discovered by herbalist or alchemical lore as the plants and unliving materials may have such properties innately, thus if you tattoo that energy glyph on your skin with the wrong type of ink you might become more affected by such spells cast at you because the herb it was derived from is susceptible to that way of magic. I suppose it all depends on how involved the devs want to make the system.
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You wouldn't be able to use it anyway, you need to use a glyph stone.
People, why it has to be repeated. It has been said more than this, that you need a good carrier and such a carrier isn't some kind of weird herb, but stone strong stone.
What was said is possible, are glyphs, which naturally appeared in some person body, like they could appear in/on tree or rock. Why the heck do you disrespect what has been said and continue writing about some tatoos?
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Well if all magical power comes from glyphs then what place is there for magic-like effects from herbology or alchemy? Are these things really not connected somehow? Besides that I was not talking about being able to cast any spells from tattoos I was talking about some conceivable SLIGHT effect of the symbol. Why are people so hostile to suggestions? Just because there is no effect now and no current plans for any effect does not mean that three years down the road the idea will not become more attractive and even if it never gets adopted what difference does that make? Perhaps it will provoke a way of thinking about some other subject that will get adopted.
Is this place really all about politics and who schmoozes who?
If there is absolutely no residual effect then I am going to paint every empty surface with representations of every known glyph and a description of its use and its power. What is to prevent me from this?
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If you take a pen.
And draw a lightning symbol onto your forehead.
Why would that enable you to cast lightning?
Makes no sense to me, there's no "transfer" of magic power in any way.
Just a drawing on your head.
And Herbology/Alchemy is NOT magic!
Herbology says that because of combining certain herbs and plant extracts you can create healing potions or example. Just like in real life some antidotes are created from plants, there doesn't have to be magic involved.
Alchemy is metallurgy, combining all kinds of metals in strange ways and even more complicated processes to eventually create the philosopher's stone. It also focuses on the elixir of life. It's just chemics but with fantasy results. No real magic has to be involved either.
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Sure I never suggested that drawing a symbol on your head would allow you to cast anything. What I was trying to suggest was something akin to a hint or suggestion of the power of the glyph. I tried to make it clear that yes indeed the power resides in the magical item itself and all spellcasting requires the actual item itself. Can the symbol itself not have some vestigial effect? Some marginal echo of the effect that occurs when the god has infused it with his power to produce the actual magic item used to cast spells with. It is sort of like what happens when you blow your speakers, no matter how much power you put through them all you get is a faint tinny suggestion of what you would hear if they were functioning properly.
I guess the reason I am belaboring this point is that I see no real understanding of what I am talking about just a blanket dismissal. Perhaps that is just me misunderstanding the responses or not being able to articulate the subtleties of my thinking. I'll try to let it go now, wish me luck ;)
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I think alchemy is mainly about chemistry, while I agree herbology has nothing to do with magic. I believe alchemy does, because like you say Thom, alchemists tried to make philosophers stones, life elixirs, turn lead - Pb into gold - Au and so on. But they never managed it. With time alchemy turned in chemistry and there is rarely someone who believe these failed experiments and attempts are possible at all. But different alchemy experiments may as well have nothing to do with magic
In fantasy worlds like PS, where magic is present, it is also part of alchemy. Like in healing potions. There is no purely chemical substance, which would regenerate strenghts so fast, like the healing potions do. But i would like to note there, that alchemy is still very different than magic purely from the glyphs. For example I believe the strenghts regeneration process after drinking a potions, shouldn't be as fast as effect of casted spell. There are number of differencies, which should bo present, to clearly distinct alchemy from the ways of magic.
Bilbous is asking a good question about the source of magic in alchemy products. It has originated from use of glyphs in some way for sure. But claiming that with use of alchemy you can extract a glyph from nature to your body is fragile theory. Like it was said, to extract a glyph, you need a carrier. How to say it... a skin may not be a carrier. It is not durable enough. It gets damaged too easly. And you should know what happens if a glyphs gets destroyed.
What you could do, to make your beloved tatoo, is to put the carrier with glyph undewr your skin, like it was suggested. Then make some nice drawing around and done. But i don't know if you would enjoy it^^ especially possible death from infection.
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That is still not quite what I am trying to get at, let me try another analogy from real life. Think of one othose holographic plates, if you look at it it is flat but you might be able to see some shapes but if you shine a laser of the proper wavelength then you get a three dimensional image to spring up into the air. So to bring my analogy back to Planeshift, the symbol is like the holographic plate, the magical Glyph that is used to cast spells with is the three dimensional image and the laser that makes it all possible is Talads will. Without "Talads will" all you have is a hint of the possibility.
And now I have to go to work, booo! I really am just trying to understand the system and "just because" is kind of unsatisfying but may be all there is.
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So, you make a tatoo, which is somehow supposed to do the same thing as Glyph (it can't be a glyph, because a glyph you can normally use is something found in nature and rafined into a powefull and durable substance, like stone - this has been told in Q&A) and then Talad need to want you to be able to use it like a glyph. If Talad doesn't want it at some time, you can do sh*t.
Nice theory and good luck with understanding the system. Only i think you would already understand it, if you have reed the Q&A ;)
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Alchemy in the traditional roleplaying sence(eg. mortar and pestle, some leaves and hey presto a potion!) cannot be magical. Its all about chemistry and plant biology. The traits of the potions are a direct effect of the combination of its ingredients. There is no magic about it.
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/me points up and nods.
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(eg. mortar and pestle, some leaves and hey presto a potion!) cannot be magical.
Nice example of herbology and knowledge how to use them.
Only one problem in this. It depends what potion you are talking about. If it is a potion of healing, which cure you in unnatural way, then there is magic in it. There is something unnatural in it, because till this day no one invented such a thing and see how much is known about biology and chemistry at present day. I wrote about this fact in previous post and hoped someone will take it to heart.
In the cherbology and alchemy you are thinking about is nothing unnatural, but then don't expect unnatural things. Only something what sounds unnatural to in game peasant. Also don't mess into this peasant believs about alchemy, which describe unnatural things, but in fact are only fairy tales.
There are things which are rarely hardly explanable to us, players (people who live at present time) and sounding like magic to common peasants in game. There are also things which are really magic in game and unexplanable to us as players (people living at present times, with vast knowledge). The only explanation is in fact magic, which has its story and rules inside game, made up things, which don't exist in real.
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Well there is nothing saying that there cannot be herbs and stuff with seemingly miraculous healing powers in the planeshift world, they might seem to be magic but it isn't necessarily so.
When I was talking about herbology and alchemy I was thinking about such earthly lore as birthstones and mystical properties said to be held by various minerals and plants. When I was talking about effects from the symbol that is embodied in a particular glyph -- not the glyph itself mind you -- such as you might find in nature, in a birthmark, a water stain or woodgrain and was thinking that it might render the bearer, the person with the birthmark, the wall with the stain or the wood with the grain something like 1-5% resistance or susceptibility to magic cast by the glyph whose shape appears upon it depending on the color or material. If that is what you understood me to suggest I am sorry to go on about it but the replies all seemed to miss the mark. I don't really mind my ideas being shot down as long as it appears that they were understood and rebutted for what they were. I, personally, never tried to suggest that casting spells with such markings should be the case.
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if it is a potion of healing, which cure you in unnatural way, then there is magic in it.
From our perspective, yes. From a fantasy world's perspective, no.
I don't really mind my ideas being shot down as long as it appears that they were understood and rebutted for what they were. I, personally, never tried to suggest that casting spells with such markings should be the case.
I do understand it now. If characters can be born with some character-creation dependent birthmark is up to the devs of course. I'm not sure if I like the idea myself. Why would such a symbol give a slight resistance? Why would it exist in the first place? And I'm opposed to the idea of water stains giving magical resistance. It needs to be worked out more.
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The whole idea sort of goes back to "what good would glyphs(symbols not Glyphs -- magical) do if carved/painted on a mages staff?" If my idea were to be adopted it would allow for a mage to boost some spell casting abilities by representing the Glyphs on his staff. Just to be clear the mage would be unable to cast spells without actually possessing the proper Glyph, the representations on the staff would not be sufficient. Some kind of resriction would have to be worked out so that a mage could not simply stick all the symbols on his staff but only if the system were to be formally studied for use. It seems a little premature at the moment.
Another seed from which the idea grew was the statement from the settings that glyphs can occur anywhere including an animals fur. It seemed to me that such a marking would not be an actual Glyph but merely be a representation with some marginal effect. The idea was to make some kind of sense of this.
I would like to offer this thought, perhaps these naturally occuring glyphs are clues to the location of real Glyphs so that the stain that appeared on the wall may have been caused by the Glyph on the shelf inside the building, the mark on the fur may have been because the animal's birthplace was above where a Glyph was buried, the tree which produced the wood with the grain could have had a Glyph at its heart.
Thus you could tattoo that energy glyph on your forehead but if the artist chose the wrong herbal or alchemical extracts because they had insufficient knowledge of the properties of their materiels you would wind up with an unwanted susceptibility to energy spells.
The idea is really that Talad bound his power into shapes that had intrinsic properties and magnified those properties a billion-fold to a state where they have the power they have. The idea that shapes have some power of their own is traditional lore on Earth and could be built into PS lore. Of course it doesn't have to be included but I think it would be good to have some sort of glue to hold magic together and to tie it in with herbal and alchemical lore. That is just me though.
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A real wizard would carve it into their skin! With a rusty nail no less!
Apart from this, I get the idea that the Glyphs are talad made, he imbues powers into a lump of rock, and shoves a sigil on it. Fair enough. Gotta give it a power and then know what that power is. Seeing as he can do that ,your a mortal being, and its not just the sigils and symbols that supply the power in the first place. How about embeding the actual glyphs into your flesh?
*cackles insanely*