PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Zellgadess on January 16, 2007, 09:34:52 am
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This morning, I looked at something i've been looking at day in day out for a while, and I noticed something i've never noticed before.
I did a quick search on the forums and havent found anything relating to the very small buildings on windows in hydlaa.
(http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/9163/weelittlewidnowsur4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
All of these houses have very small windows. I'm wondering if there is some reason behind this? It seems rather impractical seeing as they would let very little light in, meaning having to waste candles to accualy see anything during the day. Aswell, The bottom level has no windows at all, which would mean pitch black. There are houses in hydlaa with nice big windows, are they just worried about having people sneak in during the night? They seem more like arrow loops you would see on a castle. Would people be that scared of imcomming projectiles, and the owners of the seemingly richer houses be not?
Discuss!
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Im not an expert on the subject, but ever think its to do with overall structural support of the building with limited technology? Also they weren't really able to make Huge window glass until industrial revolution, any large windows would have had lots of panels of glass fixed to iron or stone or something.
Now someone will reply and correct me I'm sure. :D
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Thats normal the windows are so small. The bigger windows, the more cold wind is getting inside. Windows are expensive, not only glass, but it is much faster and easier to build just a wall. Remember these houses aren't from stones or bricks, but wood. EDIT: (In fact some seems to be made partially of some stone material, but this what keeps it together is still wood.) I suppose there is also no glass in these windows, but these membranes made from something inside some animals ;)
The houses with big glass windows are owned probably by very rich people.
Concluding, i think some glass windows in sme houses are too big and in other houses with these tiny windows too small.
It is mainly due to a fact, that there are only few textures for walls and some were made without good proportions and other are so badly resized, while it should tile more or less. Finally, the building wall lengts can't be very custon if there are only few textures. The fact there are no windows at level one is also due to texturing errors.
Although there is room for progress, thanx to this our RAM isn't that much used while the Hydlaa is loaded.
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Yes, you can see the brick in some houses when theres a tear in the outer layer, I'm not saying glass is needed for these windows though, but being so small they would let so little light in. Yes the cold could be a issue, is it cold on the top level tho? Being closet to the sun, I would think it would be hotter. What is the average temperature? The heat is kept in seeing as the whole place is underground, and would the planets core increase heat also? I did a quick Search and could not find anything on the topic of temperature.
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another possibility is its just the culture, people like small windows.
or just lazy builders. :P
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Considering glassblowing takes about 1 PP and alot of practice, there would be alot of spare glass pannels lying around that people made!
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As some one eluded to earlier. In medieval times the only two methods of making plate glass , the best was blowing bubbles of glass and then splitting the bubble and unfolding it. The other one and much inferior method was getting a molten lump of glass and and stretching it untill it resembled a glass pane (but resembled a thick, distorted, full of bubbles glass pane).
Another reason could be that because glass is expensive due to the method of manufacture you would need to have a fair amount of money to buy it, So the Hydlaa authorities could have imposed a glass tax similar to what happened in England a few of centuries ago. Its a very easy way to tell if someone is rich because you just measure their windows.
[EDIT]
Considering glassblowing takes about 1 PP and alot of practice, there would be alot of spare glass pannels lying around that people made!
Whos to say that when implemented the 1st ten levels you could only make glass vials and flasks and other such small items. Blowing glass for windows would definatley be at the top end of the 'tech tree'
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Ok, so if glass were to be used it would be far to expencive, But is glass really nessasary? Could a open window be plausable?
As i said is the cold a problem in Hydlaa? If so are there many bugs?
[Edit]
(quote screwing with me and to tired, "too below! =P")
It was more of a joke =P How do we know glass is a valuable comodity? There are may glass potions in the game, and for only 30tria i think. And i'm guessing the accual potion is more of the cost!
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Ok, so if glass were to be used it would be far to expencive, But is glass really nessasary? Could a open window be plausable?
As i said is the cold a problem in Hydlaa? If so are there many bugs?
I think you're reading into everything far to much, alot of the settings are yet to be released or even written so maybe those questions can't even be answered,(Or maybe they can be answered :detective:) as for bugs yeah there's plenty but i'm thinking of different bugs. ;D
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Going into detail is, exactly where i want to go ;D
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Yeah, I was joking I'm intrigued about things to do with Yliakum, there is always something to learn which you didn't know.
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Even if glass is an issue, many houses had larger openings with shutters or a small door. Lighting the inside of buildings was a big problem in colder areas, but even they had opennings that could be opend or closed. I have yet to hear of freezing temperarures, although every building has a fireplace. I think you will see a change in building styles with the addition of other villages as PS expands, and who knows maybe there will be a rework on the existing structures too.
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Hydlaa does get foggy from time to time and ive yet to see a large body of water like an ocean that coul account for all the moisture in the air so I guess it does get quite cold at times.
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could be that the workers couldn't make such strong windows to bare the weight of what is above it, so they made them small to make them able to carry more weight... but then again, they can implent magic in their solution
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Is that planeshift or medievil times? What is your source Laragorn?
Yes the fog could show it is can be cold in hydlaa, Or perhaps it's fog that has been blown uphill from the lower grades?
But if it is cold enough for fog on the highest level it must be freezing at the bottom, and thats not right. I have found nowhere that the Nolthrir have any resistance to the harsh cold, and they seem to be very scantly clad to be underwater. Maby there is a equalibrium of heat comming from the core of the planet and the Azure Sun? Making the 4 and 5th level the coldest. So much to consider!
@Peacer
People of the middle ages were able to support much bigger windows, and I believe they were mainly wood, not brick houses. You must remember that these people had already had building experience before they came to Yliakum.
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Really, building without windows is cheaper than with windows. So, the smaller the windows, the cheaper the house. Some people just won't care about small windows. They will be happy to have roof above head. Wealth isn't as common as you could say, today.
But please people don't refer too much to what we have currently in game. For example glass potions: The only reason why they are cheap is because every damn MMORPG has these and in large quantities, because players want their char to be healed fast. I'm in huge oposition to this, not only because the life turns too easy and not enough risky (rush is sign of present times). But also because people wonder: why glass is expensive if we have glass potions for 50 tria.
Next question could be, why people care about money when we (players) have more of them than enough.
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why glass is expensive if we have glass potions for 50 tria.
Maybe Yliakum is a forward thinking society ahead of its time, Recycling is mandatory and the guards cut your hand off if you dispose of the potion flasks in a way that they cannot be reused by the vendor ;)
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Yeah, too much speculation, too little fact. At this point, we're lucky to get a straight answer as to why we all seem to be immortal, let alone the part about small windows and draft temperatures...
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why glass is expensive if we have glass potions for 50 tria.
Maybe Yliakum is a forward thinking society ahead of its time, Recycling is mandatory and the guards cut your hand off if you dispose of the potion flasks in a way that they cannot be reused by the vendor ;)
Who said the potion containers have to be made of glass? Maybe they're made of leather (look in any medieval reference for the term "jack" and you'll find it.) Maybe they're made of wood, and possibly waxed to prevent leakage. Both of these options would justify "throwing away" the potion container when you're done drinking the potion since they're easy to come by and biodegradable. If there was recycling, then drinking a potion would replace your potion with an empty flask.
There's no need to assume glass yet. :)
Heck, you also assumed that small windows meant using candles while overlooking the fact that creating light with magic is also possible. Maybe the house has a heatless light orb that's passed down through generations. Who knows? ;)
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So every single person must have a white globe? considering it costs 1000tria to even get the materials to cause such a spell, and for every single person in there run down houses to have one! I think not! =P
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I doubt the core would heat the bottom levels much more than the top. I'm no thermodynamics major, but I think the distance would need to be much greater, unless it's sitting above magma (but it isn't, it's a lake). On the other hand, if the lake is heated enough, the hot rising air could warm the lower levels without doing much to the upper (though the perimiter of all levels under the ceiling (I think that was 3+) would be warmed slightly, though not as much as the smaller bottom levels.
I've seen snow in Hydlaa, so unless that is an idiosyncrasy, it can reach freezing. But speaking of snow, there's another temperature problem. In reality, snow occurs because water vapor freezes when it rises . The extra heat from the sun doesn't occur until very high, past the layers that block much of the radiation. The ground is warm because the ground absorbs the heat from the sun and then radiates it back out gradually, but up in the air there is no ground, so you only get the first dose. In Yliakum, rising means getting closer to the crystal. Unless the crystal is many many miles above, so that an atmosphere like earth's forms, the water wouldn't freeze and form snow. It would rise, then get hotter. I guess it would either collect, escape upward through cracks, or condense on the walls and run back down along the edges. It would run along towards the crystal, but it would get vaporized again, so only the vapor that winds up by the sides could condense and fall.
So maybe the ceiling that isn't near the center by the crystal is cool enough to condense the water and allow "rain" to drip from the small stalactites and bumps, or sheet along the sides of the walls. If it's cold enough, it could freeze the water into snow. That could be possible, considering how wide Yliakum is, and that the cieling wouldn't get the full burst of the crystal, just part (like at winter, when the sun is at an angle). For example, look at the ceiling away from the ceiling light. It's probably a little darker than the rest of the room, especially if the room is wide with a bumpy ceiling and a close floor.
For the lower levels, they may be far enough away for some kind of mid-air condensation to occure. The faces of the cliffs probably don't get as much light either, so they'd be a little cooler and not radiate as much heat into the air, and in the middle where there is no land, it would be cooler. If there is some kind of heat from below to warm up the bottom, the middle air would be even more likely to cool enough for condensation because the below heat would never pass directly through the air like the crystal's does. So it would just be the heat radiated from the ground.
As for light, there is another possible source. Glowing objects. This is all underground after all, so maybe there are phosphorescent animals in the tunnels or lakes. They could possibly be processed into glowing paint, or even kept as pets. Then there is the possibility for artificial glowing things, wither by science or magic.
The glowing items made by magic don't have to be expensive. They would for random George to go and learn magic to make it, but they may be able to buy them cheaper. Look at a newspaper. How much do you suppose a printing press costs? Much more than the paper, that's for sure. The cost of learning the magic is a one-time cost. What the consumer worries about is the cost of ingredients and time to make the "globe". The globe-maker will eventually pay off his investment and start earning profits, as long as he sells them for more than the expense of actually making one. That isn't to say they'd be cheap, but they may be affordable.
Another thing about windows: Have you seen that funky area in Hydlaa with the one-way walls? Something similar could be done to make entire walls of your house transparent. However, that would probably be very expensive, even if some wizard mass-produced them. It's a remote possibility, but I thought I'd mention it.
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Some interesting points ^_^
So is magic really that afordable? Can every Tom, Dick and Harry gain a little spell knowledge? How rich are these citizens?
I for one tho, knowing the fate of sitting infront of a computer all day or such, would much prefer natural light then lightbulbs, But would these spells/creatures have the same type of natural light emmitted? Find out next time, on CSI: Hydlaa. 8)
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Can every Tom, Dick and Harry gain a little spell knowledge? How rich are these citizens?
According to the PS economy document, an average farmer makes approximately 250 tria a month. Therefore, purchasing a glyph at 1000 tria might take a long time for a farmer. After all, don't they say diamond rings should cost two months' salary? Now double that. Mind you, glyphs could be passed down through generations. If merchant families can afford pterosaurs that cost substantially more, glyphs would be relatively common in the middle and upper classes.
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I think maybe I wasn't clear enough. I meant that somebody who does have money decides to produce these "magic lights", and then sell them to everyone else for a more affordable sum. That person doesn't need to sell them for 1000 tria. That may be the initial cost for the glyph, but that cost is ignored. It is the initial investment, the same as when somebody decides to start a printing company. The cost that Tom, Dick and Harry pay is the cost of the actual materials to make the globe, and the time and effort by the mage who does it.
In other words, they pay for some eye of cat, tail of glowing newt, and a couple hours of the mage's time.
I don't know how much those ingredients cost, but it's probably much much less than the glyphs that the creator would need.
The thing is more complicated than that, with things like demand and effort factoring in, and it probably requires more than one basic glyph, but you get the idea. When you buy a newspaper, you pay for the paper, ink, operating cost, and manpower, not the printing press. Actually, you pay for less than that because of advertisements, but that's making things more complicated than they need to be.
Now, the first couple batches that the mage makes might be a little more expensive as he tries to get his money back quickly, but after whatever loans he may have taken out to start are paid, the price would level out.
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Remember, some races can see in the dark, I.E. Enkidukai, Klyros, Dermorians, Nolthrir, Diaboli, and Ynnwn.
Others can see heat. (Not as good as night vision, but better than nothing)
Pretty much only Ylians and Xacha would have a problem with darkness.
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Ooh, good first post. :)
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Pretty much only Ylians and Xacha would have a problem with darkness.
And the Hydlaa buildings style is exactly Ylians style or Xacha ;P I can remember for sure tha Xacha did the temple.
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/me chuckles at the silly people.
Look at the buildings. Look at the city. Then look at the Settings.
First, the buildings. They are obviously old, judging by the plasterwork. The windows are small, vertical, and narrow, and none adorn the ground floor. The upper stories jut out over the ground floor as well.
Second, the city. The streets are twisted and narrow at times, offten with bottlenecks. The city is surrounded by a huge wall with huge gates.
Last, the Settings. The land is filled with creatures that dispise the races. In the past, they have attemped to invade the lands of the races.
Come on, put it together. The entire city is made for defence. If the walls are breached, the streets would be hard to take. If the streets were taken, then the people could fall back to the houses, which have no easy access through glass windows. A bow can still be shot through the narrow windows, while still protecting the defender. Finally, the overhang makes it very difficult to climb the walls to get to the windows, and shooters from other buildings and take any climbers out.
Any new buildings might have larger windows due to the people feeling safer, since the creatures do not seem to attack the city anymore.
As to the light issue, people in medieval times were outside working when it was light. When it got dark, they went to sleep. Actually, this was the way it was until even a few hundred years ago.