PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nurahk on February 11, 2007, 02:30:18 am
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This is going to turn into a flame war almost instantaneously, and that'll just go to prove my point.
Either way, it should be said, and who better to say it than me...some random Planeshifter.
The Problem
As of late there have been many threads that center on complaining about changes. I call these "Whining Threads", they serve no purpose except to make the poster feel like he is right and like he is the victim. Now, most of these threads don't start off that bad. They rarely begin with an argument about why they disagree with the change, barely ever well structured and, for the most part, unreasonable. That would be terrible in a mature community but, here we are plagued with many people who are less than intelligent[size=0pt], like Datruth![/size]and so, it's worse that that. What one must understand is that though you may think the decision was a bad one, it is still a matter of opinion and the Devs' opinions overule you when you are talking about their game (Mostly refering to Talad here). You can, of course, have your opinion heard, but so can others. Most of the time others will have opinions such as "Stop whining" or "You are an idiot", except written in such a way that it is not a flame, if you can put up with this, then good for you, go express your opinions. Otherwise, please accept that you can not turn this into a flame war, the thread will end up locked, so either ignore the thread after posting or do you best to ignore the flames that come your way.
The new type of combat put into the game is horrible, its more of a bane to dueling than the lag in my opinion, you have to face the enemy, the attacks dont stop and timing is all off, I would like to have it put back the old way I know that many others would want it back the old way
From new combat style (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27534.0) thread.
This is how not to start a thread. I would like to point out that though it may be true, it is terribly stated. No offense to the poster but, he should have expected his thread to be turned into a flame war, locked and then ignored. You do not discuss or back up your points and it has a tone of "Complaining" more than "Argueing".
A bit better
It's like the PVP duelling now uses a similar or identical repeat-attack-mechanism to that used when killing mobs... this means you can't do a timed-attack... pause, evaluate and initiate another timed-attack easily.
If you haven't done much PVP duelling, no disrespect.. but I wouldn't expect you to understand!!
Sure the game mechanics looked like you were slashing forward when you attacked people behind you (or to the side)... but "imagine" or "roleplay" that the attack was a slash behind... or a slash to the side of the player and all is fine.
Right now.. you effectively can't slash behind or to the side of you. --- I could understand this for killing mobs.. but in duels it's become essential... unless they change the game mech. to allow you to turn around as quick as you can in real life!!
More importantly though.. the overall duelling technique requires you to start an attack... and then stop the repeated attacking before you can do a properly timed attack again... I think (though I could be wrong)... that this auto-attack / timing thing may be what most people object to and should be considered the more MAJOR issue with the changes.
If anyone else thinks otherwise, please feel free to correct me... I'm just going off how I feel about the PVP system.
Same thread
Had it been started like this, an intellectual debate may have then occured, notice the tone of argueing or debating. It probably would have been turned into a flame war but, it's not a certainity.
The thread should have been placed in the wish list though, and not general discussion. You are asking for this, not demanding it, for the simple reason that no, you cannot demand stuff from the Devs.
Solutions/Pointers
Whining threads are a terrible thing, they seem to sprout whenever there is a change. One must understand that though you may not like something, others do. As stated before, it is a matter of opinion. To bring your case forward without confronting the a few different opinions is a gesture of immaturity. Immaturity attracts immaturity and so, your thread ends up a flame war.
Ignoring peoples opinions and not changing your argument or addressing the opinions is another sign of immaturity. We are not here to yell our opinion at others until they adopt it, we want to assess which opinion is the strongest. Without doing this, your thread will become a flame war.
Attacking the poster and not the opinion is a logical fallacy (Meaning, if you know logic at all, you don't do it). This will quickly turn your thread into a flame war.
Don't feed the trolls! If somebody ignores any of these three pointers or is just being an idiot then ignore him. Ask him to rewrite his post, be kind to him and he will be kind to you. "Zomg! You are a troll and I hates you" will result in a flame war as will "Stop talking about yourself in the third person".
Following these three pointers and a bit of common sense should help you keep your thread flame free.
It's all very simple and mainly cetralized around acting like an adult and using some common sense.
But Nurahk, I followed all these and they still haven't changed the game yet!
Expecting the Devs to receive sudden enlightement and adopt your opinion will result in dissapointment. Look at it logicaly.
1) The Devs changed it that way so they a) Wanted it that way or b) Thought that the change was needed.
2) The Devs do this as a hobby, it takes hours to write code, chances of them then throwing away that code is slim.
and 3) There is never only one correct opinion.
Devs are people too!
This brings us to our next point. The Devs do this as a hobby, some treat it as a job, spending tons of their free time on it no matter what. This brings up two points, 1, that they probably don't have the time to examine each opinion and so yours may get overlooked and 2, it is their game, their hobby, straight up telling them that they made a mistake is rude.
As Xordan said
Well generally whiners can (Crude action followed by death) before I pay much attention to them any more;
Constructive comments are fine, whining and making petitions and crap isn't
And Karyuu
When someone makes a well thought-out and polite request, I will do everything I can to see that they receive what they want. When someone makes a rude demand, even if it will cost me the bare minimum of effort to give into, I will laugh and walk away.
If you are rude, the Devs aren't going to waste their limited time on you.
Conclusion
Be careful what you post. Keep in mind the feelings of others, when you get that little "Hehe, he's not going to like this", rewrite your post. All arguements should be impersonal.
And don't be an idiot or a troll.
There are, of course, many things I missed. I'm not perfect. If you wish to point them out politely, please do so. If you want to point them out impolitely, feel free, I may hate flaming but, I'm damn good at it. It would be best if this stayed as a thread about how to avoid flaming and I would appreciate if people respected that. Not that I expect them to.
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Topic split from: http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27560.0 --Neko
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Nurahk, you just articulated all the thoughts about Planeshift that have been running through my head since the server went down the day the update was announced. Seriously; whiners, read this.
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I don't see what the big deal is...so what if the combat system changed? It's for the better anyway. The game mechanics say when you dodge a hit, or a hit misses. You don't need to run around like an idiot mashing down your mouse button to duel.
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I agree with you, Suno. As do many people. I'll ask that we keep that thread slightly seperate though, I don't want the argument to just spill into here :)
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I won't let it. :)
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The same is true for those who use straw-man arguments to intentionally down-play the genuine upset or disapproval of others. The same is true for those who use sarcasm to do the same against those expressing dismay or disappointment at changes.
I've seen both these in that other thread, from the side that shared your opinion Nurahk.
I'm not saying anything against you... but I'm just saying that the problems in debate aren't one-sided... with those against the changes being the 'baddies'.
Where the few were whining about the changes.. there were also a few antagonizing and exasperating the situation... which predictably caused others to get frustrated.
There are people on both sides here to blame for that thread devolving in the way it did.
@Neko .. in that case please remove Suno's misinformation, it is in itself inaccurate and misrepresents the arguments being made in the other thread... "mashing down your mouse button to duel" wasn't even a part of that argument and only shows his misunderstanding of the subject matter of the other thread (or at least misunderstanding of people's primary argument). --- By posting something as incorrect as that, it'll only instigate people posting to correct him, especially with the other thread being closed and no longer open to further debate.
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Looks like the old "You're a tester, suck it up. If you don't like it, leave" kind of message was improved to something much more argumentative and logical and add some more things as well. But I think this is some kind of defense for the way the dev team works.
And don't be an idiot or a troll.
An indirect offensive comment targeted towards many, except for the devs of course. Of course indirect offensive comments like this one can be regarded as some kind of flame to bait the so called "idiots" and "trolls".
When someone makes a well thought-out and polite request, I will do everything I can to see that they receive what they want. When someone makes a rude demand, even if it will cost me the bare minimum of effort to give into, I will laugh and walk away.
Simply saying "I will fully ignore it" would be enough, the final of this phrase seems to be arrogant and spreading it in the forums is a bad way to present the community to the dev team, as I'm sure Karyuu just got mad to say such thing(I will avoid pre-emptive judgements about it).
Don't feed the trolls!
Don't challenge them either, as it will surely be a pretext for them acting out with their flames.
For last, I don't think the devs, moderators, gms, etc. need people to defend them, they are pretty capable of defending themselves on regard to such things.
Another thing is that my posts were lost in the middle of the "crossfire" in that thread.
People will complain, even from things that are free, that's something that should be expected.
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Most of the time others will have opinions such as "Stop whining" or "You are an idiot", except written in such a way that it is not a flame,
I agree completely, Drah, that's what I was trying to get across here. The thread isn't asmuch about whiners being wrong, though I personaly believe they are, it's about keeping opinion threads from spiraling into flame wars.
To Raleigh
An indirect offensive comment targeted towards many, except for the devs of course. Of course indirect offensive comments like this one can be regarded as some kind of flame to bait the so called "idiots" and "trolls".
Don't go on about indirect offensive comments, dissecting somebody's thread will always lead to stuff like that. It was meant as a think before you leap comment.
Simply saying "I will fully ignore it" would be enough, the final of this phrase seems to be arrogant and spreading it in the forums is a bad way to present the community to the dev team, as I'm sure Karyuu just got mad to say such thing(I will avoid pre-emptive judgements about it).
Why should Karyuu have to watch everything she says? She's still a person. If you are rude to her is it wrong for her to laugh and walk away?
Don't challenge them either, as it will surely be a pretext for them acting out with their flames.
Challenging trolls is much like feeding them, I agree. But once a troll is out, just ignore it, it will go away.
For last, I don't think the devs, moderators, gms, etc. need people to defend them, they are pretty capable of defending themselves on regard to such things.
They are capable of defending them, but I don't see why they should take the time out of their schedules to do so.
People will complain, even from things that are free, that's something that should be expected.
So is racism, sexism and tons of other prejudices. Along with genocide, murder, assassination and rape. Just because something should be expected doesn't mean it should be tolerated.
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To Raleigh
Simply saying "I will fully ignore it" would be enough, the final of this phrase seems to be arrogant and spreading it in the forums is a bad way to present the community to the dev team, as I'm sure Karyuu just got mad to say such thing(I will avoid pre-emptive judgements about it).
Why should Karyuu have to watch everything she says? She's still a person. If you are rude to her is it wrong for her to laugh and walk away?
People will complain, even from things that are free, that's something that should be expected.
So is racism, sexism and tons of other prejudices. Along with genocide, murder, assassination and rape. Just because something should be expected doesn't mean it should be tolerated.
I know people get angry about things sometimes.What I meant referring to Karyuu's phrase is that it's not a good idea to quote such thing on a stickied thread, as it will make people have certain assumptions about the devs.
About the last one.
Comparing racism, etc with whining complaints is a very exaggerated thing. Still I didn't imply it should be tolerated, just that it is something common on any form of entertainment or consumer products.
Anyway I think that for now this thread has some feel of arrogance and indifference towards the community, specially by the use of offensive words and by the quotation of the wrong phrases. So I suggest avoiding the mention of "idiot" and changing Karyuu's phrase or exchanging it for a better one.
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Why am I being picked on when Xordan had a "Crude action followed by death"? :)
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You might call it whining, if some people are complaining about changes to something, they loved, and you might be right to a certain degree. But since almost everyone calls us not only players, but also testers, it is our duty, to point out things, that have changed to a bad way in our opinion, and it is our duty to discuss it. The "new combat system" thread went out of line, yes, i has become really ugly in the end and i do not stand for this. But the way it went was not only bad, since we had a good discussion about, why we agree or disagree with the changes. Everyone wanted to make his/her statement, in order to improve the game in its final status. Unfortunately, many people let their current disappointment or on the other side, their current elation influence their statements, so lots of the posts in "new combat system" have become emotional, which turned out to whining on one side, and arrogance on the other side.
But to open a new thread, and call it "whining" is not constructive in any way, since you pointed at everyone, who is not satidfied with the new combat system, and degraded them all to "whiners", even though, many of them just made their statement, and they did it in a civilized way, just following the order that was given to them, by calling them testers, rather than players.
However, I hope that many people will read this thread, and further i hope, noone will feel offended by you, calling them whiners, just because they do not agree with the recently made changes. If you want to have a constructive discussion, dont begin with an offense in the very beginning.
Be careful what you post. Keep in mind the feelings of others, when you get that little "Hehe, he's not going to like this", rewrite your post. All arguements should be impersonal.
But apart from the name of the topic, i appreciate your try, to make the discussion less offensive, and I hope everyone will stick to this from now on.
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Raleigh, instead of poking at the post, why not confront the issue at hand :)
I'm not going to go about sanitizing my thread because the community is overly sensitive.
And the link is that not everything that should be expected should be tolerated, I used extreme examples, that's all. It's in no way false.
Rongar:
You raise nothing but valid points, I'm impressed to be honest.
I used offensive terms to draw attention to it. And the whiners are those who turn it into a flame war, not those who post their beliefs. I failed to make this clear in my first post, sorry.
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You might call it whining, if some people are complaining about changes to something, they loved, and you might be right to a certain degree. But since almost everyone calls us not only players, but also testers, it is our duty, to point out things, that have changed to a bad way in our opinion, and it is our duty to discuss it. The "new combat system" thread went out of line, yes, i has become really ugly in the end and i do not stand for this. But the way it went was not only bad, since we had a good discussion about, why we agree or disagree with the changes. Everyone wanted to make his/her statement, in order to improve the game in its final status. Unfortunately, many people let their current disappointment or on the other side, their current elation influence their statements, so lots of the posts in "new combat system" have become emotional, which turned out to whining on one side, and arrogance on the other side.
But to open a new thread, and call it "whining" is not constructive in any way, since you pointed at everyone, who is not satidfied with the new combat system, and degraded them all to "whiners", even though, many of them just made their statement, and they did it in a civilized way, just following the order that was given to them, by calling them testers, rather than players.
However, I hope that many people will read this thread, and further i hope, noone will feel offended by you, calling them whiners, just because they do not agree with the recently made changes. If you want to have a constructive discussion, dont begin with an offense in the very beginning.
Be careful what you post. Keep in mind the feelings of others, when you get that little "Hehe, he's not going to like this", rewrite your post. All arguements should be impersonal.
But apart from the name of the topic, i appreciate your try, to make the discussion less offensive, and I hope everyone will stick to this from now on.
I think you missed the (or at least a) point. We don't mind constructive criticism and discussion. We do mind people starting online petitions and other extreme methods of protest (aka whining).
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I unsticky-ed this.
The first post was really good and I thought everyone should read it, but what with the discussion I see comming, it isn't stick material any more.
(In case any one was wondering why it became a normal thread again)
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I have resigned as a PS tester.
Find some other fool to tell he's a whiner and his opinion means nothing cause you have authority either here ingame or in development.
Had fun for the year I played thanks for the memories! :sorcerer:
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If I was on the dev or mod team... I would have already taken the bull by the horns on the other issue.
1. Explain/justify the changes.
2. Get the "whiners" to chill by explaining that they can still use player-skill [in this particular instance]. (I'd explain how... but I don't want to go into detail as this isn't the right thread for it!!)
3. Let them know that not only is this an alpha game.. but this dueling system is in place and requires proper testing (not just "urgh.. don't like it.. won't test it or even give it a chance"), and that to complain immediately doesn't help and that they should TRY to get used to it for a week or two at least before reacting, especially when player-skill is actually STILL a factor.
A good post that covered these could have been more effective than closing the thread (I'm not condemning the closure of the thread, just saying a good-post can be equally or more effective) or any other action taken by anyone... --- please know though, that I don't blame Karyuu (or any other moderators) at all for that.. because I don't think that the above explanation is one Karyuu (or the moderators) could have delivered due to not having the information to assert such things.
@Neko... even I could tell from the first post that this thread was going to be a bumpy ride.
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I'd agree with you, Drah, if the team was paid.
And we can not expect the team to do everything right, this thread is more about how we, as a player community and a tester community, can avoid flame wars.
I'm just going to state this quickly
Whiner: Somebody who states something should be changed without reason.
Somebody who complains about something that can not be changed.
Somebody who states something should be changed without contributing anything new to the thread.
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ps tester...
i think the devs have the mind frame of
"its our game, you all should be thankful u get to play what we make"
instead of
"its our game, and thank u for helping us see how this game stands to play out once its on the market. we anticipate your words and thoughts and hope to use them to better the game, as to which we need u as much as u need us"
i believe it was once like that, maybe one day it will be like that again.
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I don't believe that, Talad is very nice to everybody, actualy.
I've yet to see Venge or Acraig or any Dev turn anybody down when they ask for help.
I think that the Devs have become slightly more defensive because of the rudeness coming from the Player Community.
But this is offtopic. This thread should be about how to avoid flame wars.
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@Nurahk.. ^^ I was a freeware developer and created a program used by millions of people (and still is used by millions of people)... and had experience a lot of political battles against hostile, internet-savvy groups.
Thus my lack of sympathy ;)
But I do have some genuine empathy for the PS team... though it may be hard to see sometimes.
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[...] I don't think that the above explanation is one Karyuu (or the moderators) could have delivered due to not having the information to assert such things.
I definitely want to highlight this point, and thank you for bringing it up. I was especially upset at someone saying that the reason no developer made a post is because they made a mistake and there is no backdoor. The real reason there was no post for a long time is because the people involved in this change were not on the forum. As much as I would love to have all the answers for everything, I don't. There are some things outside of my department, so to speak. We do have some very active developers who interact with the community, but please do not expect us to pipe in in every major thread that appears on this board. The more hostility we feel towards us, the less we want to be here and talk to you (general public). I know this is a test of patience for everyone quite frequently, but please try to be nice.
To all the pessimistic individuals, I say that you are just wasting your own time right now. You really have no idea how much horsecrap we have to wade through every day, and to add your negativity here instead of being supportive is just rude.
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ps tester...
i think the devs have the mind frame of
"its our game, you all should be thankful u get to play what we make"
instead of
"its our game, and thank u for helping us see how this game stands to play out once its on the market. we anticipate your words and thoughts and hope to use them to better the game, as to which we need u as much as u need us"
i believe it was once like that, maybe one day it will be like that again.
Market?
You should be thankful. If you're not thankful then obviously you're not enjoying yourself and therefore should go elsewhere.
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@Drah, but that is mainly your choice to be nice to the community.
Either way, I agree with you, but I don't think that it is their responsability to do it, it's just one of their options.
What I'm trying to do though is get this back to "What can we do to avoid Flame Wars?" and ignore the Devs and such completely (In a nice way :) )
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ps tester...
i think the devs have the mind frame of
"its our game, you all should be thankful u get to play what we make"
instead of
"its our game, and thank u for helping us see how this game stands to play out once its on the market. we anticipate your words and thoughts and hope to use them to better the game, as to which we need u as much as u need us"
i believe it was once like that, maybe one day it will be like that again.
Market?
You should be thankful. If you're not thankful then obviously you're not enjoying yourself and therefore should go elsewhere.
Being thankful doesn't means lowering your head and accepting all development decisions as absolute truths and as right things regardless of other facts. Alienating from the community and closing ears for suggestions and then saying "This is our game! We'll do it the way we wish to, and we are closed to suggestions" is not something a development team should do.
What can we do to avoid Flame Wars?
Simple: Nobody replying to troll messages, everyone ignoring them fully and nobody challenging trolls by referring to them as idiots.
The problem is when two trolls bicker among themselves... that's another case.
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Also an issue, pointless threads. Do you honestly think anyone is going to read this and then stop whining? Hasn't worked before, what's different now? You have two options, ban them all or get used to it...and since you can't do the first option, you should probably go with the second.
I don't believe that, Talad is very nice to everybody, actualy.
I've yet to see Venge or Acraig or any Dev turn anybody down when they ask for help.
I think that the Devs have become slightly more defensive because of the rudeness coming from the Player Community.
...then they've changed completely in the past 3 (4? 2? I don't know) years. Not that that point of view is a bad thing..it's what got them this far I guess.
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It is true, I don't know why we all complain. PS is unique. You search for a MMORPG and you're very lucky if the RP part exists at all. PS is the only game i've found that offers good RP. I hope I offended no Dev in the dueling thread, that was never intended I was just expressing how I felt without even giving the thought that even in 3 days I might of got used to it. As for whining, I put down my feelings, I really should check what I write but I still don't think i've ever been offensive to anyone.
PS is a great community whining or not :)
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Raleigh, so inform people when they are trolls and show them how to change. Use PM to inform and this thread can be something of a guide on what not to do.
Kiern, aye, it is a bit of a pointless thread. But one can always hope. As for the Devs, that's my impression of them, I could be wrong, but I doubt it.
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ps tester...
i think the devs have the mind frame of
"its our game, you all should be thankful u get to play what we make"
instead of
"its our game, and thank u for helping us see how this game stands to play out once its on the market. we anticipate your words and thoughts and hope to use them to better the game, as to which we need u as much as u need us"
i believe it was once like that, maybe one day it will be like that again.
Market?
You should be thankful. If you're not thankful then obviously you're not enjoying yourself and therefore should go elsewhere.
dude insane... you didnt even understand that.
i am thankful for the game, i was simply saying that devs should be just as thankful for the testers, especially the ones who stick by the game and devote hours to "testing" the game. i, in no way, said i wasnt thankful. it was a great game, still somewhat is, all i stated was that devs should appreciate its testers as mucha s the testers appreciate the game. and even the rude ones, the jerks, the "noobs" they are testers too, and provide the devs with informating such as how some view the game, and what their expieriences are with teh game, whether it be a well written logical post or an assidine ignorant rude post. it is only thier to help the devs. and i believe if the devs cant be as thankful as we the testers are, then they are taking advantage of what they have right now. and im not necessarily saying they are taking advantage of the situation. but think it the balance is well.. not so balanced
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The devs do care about the player base.
They don't care for the people that think they own the dev team's sole.
That simple.
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The devs do care about the player base.
They don't care for the people that think they own the dev team's sole.
That simple.
So your saying the $5 dollars i gave to the devil for them was a scam?
Dam not again :devil:
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Chaz, are you packing your bags yet or what? :) You seem to have stopped making useful contributions on the board.
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STOP
omg why do you guys have to be communist??? seriously if this gets erased it'll just prove my point. why do you control what the testers speak about on a forum? this is the testers place to speak their mind about the game.....
i dont understand.
if its not offensive. if its not vulgar.. then why stop the voice of the testers? why show something that proves others points that the devs/moderators could careless about its testers. so you guys decide who and when u want to listen to something? if somethings a little off topic its deleted? thats like people sitting at work talking with their boss about ideas and the boss shuts down anything that doesnt have to do with how the conversation was brought up.
dont you testers believe that 99% of what we post, wheter it be rude, nice, helpful, flaming, whining can only help the devs as to see what its testers expierience and feel from the game?
whining is apart of everygame, and whether it is constructive and well written, or just an out of the blue whine. its still information the devs can use. i dont get how of all the things in the Ps world, you choose to delete, move, change, whatever in the only spot us testers have a freedom of speach of the game they are testing. its unfair completely.
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SO you don't like my jokes your saying ? :oops:
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To put it blantantly.
There are three groups.
Those who care about the Devs.
Those who are just here to play.
And those who don't care about the Devs.
You will all go on, probably stating that you are in the second category. Some of you will get enraged, those are the one who fall in the third. Many of you will bring up points that really don't matter, that's the third. Then there are some who will say that the Devs don't care about them, that's the third. There are those who will say I'm being harsh, that's the second or the first.
Nobody is going to openly admit that they are part of the third but, the large majority of the posters lately are of that category. They see the Devs as "The people who gave me this game so they should make it the way I want." I'm going to get flamed, people are going to start to dislike me, call me a sycophant, I couldn't care less. I have my reasons to defend the Devs, they are people and most of you are abusing them.
Parallo and Emerald are the two people I put in the second. There are a few others, but most fall into either the first or the third. Have fun figuring out which one you are and then fooling yourself into thinking you are the second.
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People here can't seem to discuss these subjects without freaking out.
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If you don't have something constructive to bring to the argument, don't post.
Karyuu told me to back off on moderating. I did that for awhile.
Now I will not.
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Other devs are free to respond however they wish (if they wish) to this, but I will make one more effort to throw my $.02 in here...
a) The devs do "care" what people think about the game in general, which is why we put so much time into it.
b) The devs "do not care" about what people think of certain aspects of the game, because on these points we have a collective Vision(tm) about the type of game we are trying to make. This includes the big topic of PvP, which is so large that we made it its own subforum. :-)
c) Helpful complaints almost never come in the form of "I want X instead of 'not-X'," because "not-X" was a choice made by the team, almost always discussed in advance and agreed to. Especially if something was X before and has been recently changed to "not-X".
d) Bug reports like "It is supposed to do X, but it doesn't work and does 'not-X' instead" are very helpful and appreciated, even if we mostly feel snowed under by bug reports.
e) Complaints that "Feature X sucks" are, believe it or not, just fine too. Mostly they are redundant because we know they suck, but if you follow that with "If feature X allowed double-clicking, it wouldn't suck as much", that is a lot better and a perfect way for players to influence how the game is developed. Feature X must be non-core to point "b" above, however. "Glyphs suck" is not a useful complaint. "Glyphs are too complicated to keep straight without a notebook that reminds me which is used where" is a better complaint.
f) Believe it or not, on the dev team I care more about "popularity" and what the fans think than most of the team. The debates about "b" and the discussions of changes in "c" usually involve me wanting things to be easier, more like WoW, more popular--and Talad wanting to stay true to the Vision(tm) of what he wants. I'm a lightning rod for many people because I respond here and on irc to the players--when 95% of the devs do not--not because I am willfully trying to ignore the players.
I don't know if this will help or sink in or not. I'm aware that 99% of the people on this forum love PS and appreciate the work that I and the rest of the team do, but it seems like an uphill battle to convince the last 1% to relax and be constructive. Thanks.
- Vengeance