PlaneShift
Gameplay => Guilds Forum => Topic started by: Xus on February 14, 2007, 03:38:44 pm
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Before I speak my piece, I have a story for y'all...
Well, currently I'm already in a guild called The Moons of Cold Fire, a name which, to me, is rather nonsensical... but that is not my concern. Anywho, this guild that I take part in realli doesn't have a point. There is literally no communication between guild members, no cooperation or group efforts, and realli not even any common threads at all. In fact the entire guild was composed by a young person running around like a derranged, rabid, social person asking random people to join a guild (and I was too much of a newb at the time to say no).
Anyway, it got me thinking, and I have to say; I don't like it. There are too many worthless guilds out there, guilds made up of people who don't talk, or don't have any common goals, and basically just group together for absolutely no reason other than to have the HxC little <insertdumbguildnamehere> thing under their name. I don't like it. Guilds should have a POINT! I've been asked, since I joined The Moons of Cold Fire, by several different random gamers that I've never seen before in my entire life to join a guild. They don't know me, they haven't talked to me, they don't know what I am and am not capable of.
So anyway, I'm sure there probably are some guilds out there that actually have a point, and actual communication, but I have yet to find them... So I'm starting my own. My current working name is, as you can see, "The Ale Saints". I am, in fact, so particular about keeping up good group communications that I'm already making a guild forum and website even tho the guild doesn't even exist yet! Just simply to lay the basic foundations of communication beforehand.
Besides communication, I'm also quite particular about participation, both in the game and in the guild. I'm not saying you have to spend 7 hours on PlaneShift daily, or even go on daily at all, just as long as you're a regular player that WILL be a team player, and you do consistently work to strengthen yourself. I don't give a flying rat's bum what capabilities you currently have; you could be hot off the press for all I care. I'm just looking for honest participators who can keep up communications. If you aren't that, then don't even bother trying to get into the guild once it's made because that's not going to happen. In fact, if you aren't that, you realli shouldn't even be playing an MMORPG like this. So run along now and go and pop Morrowind into your Xbox and play games the way you were meant to play them - alone.
Now then, if anyone is interested in taking part in what, I'm hoping, will be a prestigious and active guild that actually makes a difference, please reply and give me your gamertag, and I'll add you to my friends list in-game so that I can contact you.
Thanks for your interest!
~Xus
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Alright mate, I like the way you think, but you will still need much more information on your guild before people begin to join it. You've got the right idea, you just need to build on it. I'm sure you'll have the story and such ready for us soon. Can't wait, and good luck.
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Just a stupid question since you went on a rant about goals....
Does your knew guild have any? because you didn't state them if you did...and if your only goals are to "be a regular player and team player" than I think that is a bit hypacritical, but that could be just me.
Also, if you didn't see any guild with a purpose as opposed to just a group of people hanigng out, than you must not have looked hard.
But I wish you luck in your expedition and guild making. Hopefully it turns out to be a very well-run guild that can be looked up to by all!
P.S. I made my website and forums about 2 weeks before creating a guild, and you'll find that many of the larger guilds did the same.
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Hehe well spotted... I was hoping no one would notice.
You're right, it was apparently a bit hypocritical. It's just, I have an idea in my head of where I want to go with the guild, I'm simply torn because I don't, at the same time, want to limit my members to just one or two small pursuits, you know?
So basically, it's not so much "a" goal as it is "the" goal. It's hard to summarize in words, but... I want my guild collectively to reach a state of near-perfect mutual progression, realli in ALL aspects. So the goal I guess I'm going for is just a state where we're all communicating, all helping eachother along and challenging eachother, so that we all always have a good base of people to talk to in-game for help (and just for conversation), and comrades to adventure with and at the same time contest with so that we're each constantly getting better while simultaneously, I would hope, allying with other guilds and making a name for ourselves.
So when I say "a" goal, that's realli roughly what I mean... it's just that most guilds don't even shoot for that, and they're just held together by a name, and essentially a common interest in having a label under their gamertag to feel important.
But thanks for the feedback! And I will be spinning off a story real soon.
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Hehe well spotted... I was hoping no one would notice.
You're right, it was apparently a bit hypocritical. It's just, I have an idea in my head of where I want to go with the guild, I'm simply torn because I don't, at the same time, want to limit my members to just one or two small pursuits, you know?
So basically, it's not so much "a" goal as it is "the" goal. It's hard to summarize in words, but... I want my guild collectively to reach a state of near-perfect mutual progression, realli in ALL aspects. So the goal I guess I'm going for is just a state where we're all communicating, all helping eachother along and challenging eachother, so that we all always have a good base of people to talk to in-game for help (and just for conversation), and comrades to adventure with and at the same time contest with so that we're each constantly getting better while simultaneously, I would hope, allying with other guilds and making a name for ourselves.
So when I say "a" goal, that's realli roughly what I mean... it's just that most guilds don't even shoot for that, and they're just held together by a name, and essentially a common interest in having a label under their gamertag to feel important.
But thanks for the feedback! And I will be spinning off a story real soon.
I hope you don't mind, I'll put the above in few words: "I have no goals. And my guild isn't built yet."
Remember to read the Guilds Page (http://www.planeshift.it/guilds.html). And I'm considering that you've already read the Player Guide (http://www.planeshift.it/guide/en/index.html) and the Roleplay Guide (http://www.planeshift.it/roleplay.html).
"Ale Saints" doesn't sound like anything too smart. However, that might be the point of your guild, when you get over to find it. Realize that every guild (well constructed guilds) strives for perfection in guild progression, communication, etc. That doesn't count as a goal.
Plus, check the guild list and the guild threads. There is a good number of great guilds to be a part of. The top four obviously belonging to the Empire. *grins*
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I suppose it may be an attempt on the same line of the now dead, Dwarfweiser
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Of course, you suppose that by reading the title. Not the content, right?
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Hey, well I know what I want. I don't have to justify myself to you bums! :P
Like I said it's hard to summarize in words. And I suppose I do need to think on it more and I did post a little prematurely. I was just fixin' to fetch some people who felt the same... And realli whether or not that is a goal is a linguistics debate on the very nature of the word goal that could carry on all day and all night for a looong time, but regardless of whether or not it is a valid goal, it IS, at the least, somewhere I want to be, while not limiting the pursuits of my guild to just one or two in-game skills or pursuits or whatever.
And no, it's not a reference to Dwarfweiser. Actually, I'm a sworn enemy of alcohol (and just as well; I'm only 18), I just, in a long, dazed, confused acid trip thought it sounded weird and interesting. :D
Okay, I lied about the acid...
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Like it has been said before it would be very nice to come with a bit more structure. You're right, a guild should have a point and a meaning, a very clear point even and one that is valid in the world of Yliakum. I suggest you think real hard about the specialty of your guild and I also suggest you don't just make it a group of people who work together ... at least let them work together to a specific goal.
Secondly I suggest you rethink your name as soon as you put down a goal. Right now there is mention of ale while I don't see any reason for that. I'd expect your guild to either brew it, sell it or get drunk all day and hang around taverns. Secondly there is the mentioning of saints ... saints are to me very tied in with earth religions and none such things exist in Yliakum so it would probably be better for the roleplay to replace that word.
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Well yei, perhaps it's a little unfitting. I just chose it because of the imagery it evokes in my mind. I just picture secular, well-meaning, pure-hearted bearded men who hang out in pubs because they're ostracized from the normal monastic society due to their secular views, but who in the end covertly make all the difference in the society which won't have them. Sort of a D&D kind of feel for me. And there are no saints in PS, but unlike Vampires, Werewolves, Astronauts, etc, the word saint can be taken non-literally to mean someone who is simply pure of heart.
I'm a bit of a poet... But yei, the name realli can't be taken literally, it was simply meant to evoke a certain feeling, sort of like the nonsense poem Jaberwocky, or the bizzare, incoherent poetry of e.e. cummings. (very strange man).
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Ah I see ... well I guess I just get a different image in my head with those words, that's all I wanted to say really. Could be partially because english is not my native language .. so when I read the word saint for example I immediately think of religious titles.
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At long last! I have something of a background story! Now it doesn't really explain the coming about of the guild itself, but that'll be in Part II, coming soon. It takes a while to spin-off a masterpiece of literature like this, so just hang in there.
The history of The Ale Saints:
PART I
In the gloom of the tavern of Kada-El . . .
A mug slides speedily across the counter, spraying up an amber foam of ale as it passes the brooding dwarf, and coming to rest after falling a meter and exploding upon impact on the ground, sending the sweet, ambrosial liquid out in all directions to coat the floor in a faintly visible layer of gold.
“That one was for you, science-boy! I said: What, if not the gods, created our world?”
The heretical dwarf turned to this ignorant man, his face showing nothing but the trace appearance of absolute, unyielding rage. Maintaining all his past composure, he said, “No one. The universe was self-creatin’.”
As the last word rolled off the dwarf’s very tongue, a gob of spit flew into his face, the perpetrator the very same man that had drilled him on his beliefs. “I’m sorry, but that is incorrect. Let’s play again.” The man’s myrmidons chuckled. Through tightly squeezed lips, the man said, “What, if not the gods, created our world?”
The rage in his face now infinitely more apparent, the dwarf simply glared at the man under low eyebrows, a glare so very impenetrable in its malice that it alone almost ended the interview just then. “I will not tell you again, Maletus. Now leave a dwarf to his ale.”
The dwarf turned back to his ale, pursing his lips for a sip of the substance, but -WHACK! The flat of Maletus’ sword smacked across his face, leaving a bright red mark upon his cheek and spilling both the dwarf’s ale and a little of his blood.
The dwarf, at this time, did a very strange thing. He stood up, grabbing a new mug full of ale, and dumped it upon his own head with a chuckle. “Baptism by ale. Please, gracious gods, forgive your unworthy servant Xus, for he is about to commit a grave sin . . .”
Before Maletus’ myrmidons had a chance to restrain their short-tempered leader, he leapt at Xus, grabbing his beard and swinging him by it into the stone wall.
“Gahhh!!” he cried out, spilling yet more blood in an unwelcome tavern. Maletus, thinking for sure that Xus was incapacitated by the injury, began to walk away, raising his arms, demanding praise from his blind followers. Sure enough they cheered him on, patting his back and shouting praises, not breaking to see the angry dwarf rise silently from his place on the floor, remove the Battle Axe from the holster on his belt, and creep stealthily up behind Maletus.
“Nice fighting, my dear man, nice fighting indeed!” one of his followers said, patting his back. He then rose a hand to rub Maletus’ head in further congratulations. Yet as his hand ascended to the level of Maletus’ head, he was startled to see the head disappear in a flash, replaced by a steady stream of a dark red liquid, spraying straight up into the air.
This myrmidon cried out in amazement, took a step back, and then understood. Behind his fallen master he saw a grinning dwarf brandishing an axe covered in the same red liquid. Screaming in unison, the myrmidons fled for their lives from a dwarf who didn't pursue.
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Umm.. Does the dwarf not need a reason to be heretical? As far as I know there is no plausible reason that we have not to believe in the gods of Yliakum.
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@Xus: If you want some kind of atheist "guild" that has a philosophical justification to disbelieve in the gods, here's something from my chat logs as an example.
*Annera shrugs and says: I believe in something, that humongous differences of knowledge and evolution between two beings will lead the less evolved being to worship the more evolved one as a god, that is what I believe in.
*Annera says: But if insects were capable of thinking, would we have the right to claim ourselves as gods to them?
No one. The universe was self-creatin’.
Also this seems to be some kind of evolutionist (http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/evolutionism.htm) philosophical concept about the origin of the universe. If it can be properly inserted in PS Settings, it will be pretty interesting
/me wonders on how to explain the evolutionary process that leaded to the appearance of trepors and ulbernauts.
More one thing to add:
Talad and Laanx created the Krans and the Lemurs respectively, but are not "gods" on the sense of creators of the universe, neither they are the creators of the other races, as it clearly states that they were just the ones who created Yliakum and brought the other races with the aid of Vodul, what god is the creator of the huge world Yliakum belongs to(including its surface) is another history outside PS settings.
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There is no fossil record in Yliakum and therefore no reson to suppose that things evolve. Atheism is simply impossible to justify in this game.
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[edit] Ignore this one, I accidentally double-posted...
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There is no fossil record in Yliakum and therefore no reson to suppose that things evolve. Atheism is simply impossible to justify in this game.
It's not quite an atheistic view. It's more like:
*Annera shrugs and says: I believe in something, that humongous differences of knowledge and evolution between two beings will lead the less evolved being to worship the more evolved one as a god, that is what I believe in.
Like Talad and Laanx are simply the bog dogs to us insects, but the universe itself is God, in a sense, because that is initially what everything came from. But I suppose I should have read up more on the history of Yliakum to get a sense of what the popular view actually is.
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Actually there is also no reason to suppose that Talad and Laanx came from the Universe. There is no big bang here, nothing that you know from observing the real world is to be taken for granted here like evolution. Talad and Laanx created creatures. Creation seems to be true then.
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There is no fossil record in Yliakum and therefore no reson to suppose that things evolve. Atheism is simply impossible to justify in this game.
Then why is there the choice of atheism on the "Character Creation" screen?
Unlike in the real world, atheism in PS would be really much more philosophical than scientific.
Lastly lets take a look on Greek philosophers
Atomic theory: Where could come the reason to suppose that the matter is composed by atoms? Does everything need to be empirical to become an idea?
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Well according to Rene Descartes, if I remember correctly, it works inevitably down to only a single being perfect enough for self-creation. We can't have a bunch of beings perfect enough to just go poppin' up all over the place uninvited (in this case, Talad and Laanx). But what I'm suggesting is sort of like the Theology of Tolkien's Silmarillion, where there is a supreme, self-creating god who created the other gods (in this case, that would be the omnipotent Universe herself), and then the other gods created the inhabitants of the earth.
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in this case, that would be the omnipotent Universe herself
Or Vodúl.
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in this case, that would be the omnipotent Universe herself
Or Vodúl.
But I suppose I should have read up more on the history of Yliakum to get a sense of what the popular view actually is.
:whistling:
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Missed these last time.
Then why is there the choice of atheism on the "Character Creation" screen?
I guess they didn't think it through.
Unlike in the real world, atheism in PS would be really much more philosophical than scientific.
Without science in the real world there is no alternative but the god hypothosis.
Anyway, good luck with connecting atheism to drink. Countless people have tried before like they did with facism, communism, racism and sexism.
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@Parallo: I won't have my character scrapped away because of a straight-jacket based on opinions going against what is supposed to be canon.
There's a settings team over there and they obviously know about the Settings or they would not participate on PS Settings development.
If there's the choice of making an atheist character, it is because atheism as a belief exists.
Without science in the real world there is no alternative but the god hypothosis.
Are you sure?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#History (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#History)
Although the term atheism originated in 16th-century France, ideas that would be recognized today as atheistic existed before the advent of Classical antiquity. Eastern philosophy has a long history of nontheistic belief, beginning in the 6th centuryBC... Western atheism has its roots in ancient Greek philosophy
Anyway, good luck with connecting atheism to drink. Countless people have tried before like they did with facism, communism, racism and sexism.
I have to agree with that. It seems to be willing to create a negative image on atheism, either unvoluntarily or intentionally
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Good lord! Justify it then.
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Who created the Ylians, Xachas, Klyros, Diaboli, Dermorians and Nolthrirs?
Wasn't the existence of surface known by the first inhabitants of Yliakum? Or how else would the name "Azure Sun" exist?
What about the Xachan "old traditions" that are mentioned?
The first and second answers is more than enough to open space to philosophical debate and to justify atheism as a point of view.
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That justifies believing that Laanx and Talad do not exist? I think you have a wrong definition.
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I am meaning atheism as the belief that Talad and Laanx are not truly gods, but only superior beings.
The Ylians, Xachas, etc. doesn't have an answer about where they really came from or how did they appear. Talad and Laanx only brought them to Yliakum through portals. Thus it must bring some of them a questioning about their origins.
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Well you are then subject to the infinate regress we have to day save without the handy way out of the big bang and evolution. What created them and what created them and what created them etc. etc. The only terminator in Yliakum is a god.
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I really did like that story, I think it was very well written.
As for the atheism thing, its allowed in the settings due to it being in character creation.
As for your original reasons for forming the guild, I have to agree with what someone said earlier that alot of guild out there are very communicative, very closely knit and from the sound of it are exactly what you seem to have been missing about the guilds in PS.
I wish you good luck with your guild though ;o)
[Edit]
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. -Arthur C. Clarke
I think this may well apply to Talad and Laanx.
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@Parallo: The greek philosophers didn't know about Big Bang or Evolution but still some of them developed atheistic beliefs and even the definition of what makes a god was many time argued about. The difference is that while in RL the burden of proof lies to the religions as no concrete proof of the existence of a god was found, thus being based only on faith. In PS the burden of proof lies on the atheists as there is no proof that Talad and Laanx are not really gods but beings like Cortez when he reached America, that are believed to be gods. In the end everything turns into an absolute nihilism and nobody will ever know the "truth" in Planeshift about for example where did the Ylians came from and whether they came from the work of an unknown god or not.
This guild is justifiable, although its association of ale with atheism will bother some people in Yliakum, and I do not mean religious ones.
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I'm fairly sure that Aquinas came after the greek philosophers. They didn't have the idea of a constant regress.
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I was referring to the negative definition of atheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#Negative_definition:_atheism_as_the_absence_of_belief_in_deities). Something also known as nontheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontheism). It is the only appliable definition on PS, the absence of belief in deities instead of the disbelief that such beings exist.
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Well that theory in itself is flawed because something caused us to be here. You can't just say I don't believe without proposing some sort of more likely alternative.
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Well that theory in itself is flawed because something caused us to be here. You can't just say I don't believe without proposing some sort of more likely alternative.
Even if you are right on claiming that it doesn't mean such beliefs aren't applicable to Yliakum as there are many gaps like for example the origin of ylians, there. Also from the way settings describe things Diaboli and Klyros are normally atheists.
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Usually theism tries to fill gaps. Ask Laanx priests and they'll go as far as to tell you that Talad doesn't exist and Laanx created all of us. I could just as easily say the same thing now. Anything is compatible with theism.
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Usually theism tries to fill gaps. Ask Laanx priests and they'll go as far as to tell you that Talad doesn't exist and Laanx created all of us. I could just as easily say the same thing now. Anything is compatible with theism.
Not as there is an opposing church to them and they do not monopolize the value and belief-systems in Yliakum like the way the Catholic Church did in the middle ages in Europe.
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The catholic church was opposed to the Islamic one. There was only a monopoly over europe the same way Laanxism will have a monopoly ove the Temple of Laanx.
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I saw a NPC that believes in Talad, the Laanx worshippers and even one with a naturalistic religion, there's no monopoly of a single faith in Yliakum. Thus there's nothing wrong about the Ale Saints and their beliefs that came from some philosophical thought.
Aren't there people that believe in the so called "Conspiracy Theories" today even though many present evidences against them?
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Aren't there people that believe in the so called "Conspiracy Theories" today even though many present evidences against them?
Ah, see? My point. You can't justify it.
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I've already justified it several times. Here's the brief of everything I put as justifications:
1) It's on the Settings as you can create atheist characters.
2) Atheism had origins on Eastern philosophies and some of its basic premises to modern view on it came from Western philosophers
3) There's more than one religion in Yliakum. Of course besides those mentioned, there's also the Black Flame. It means it's a pretty heated up place on such matters.
4) Most races were brought by Laanx or Talad, not created by them, thus it opens space for philosophy on their origins.
5) The surface world is somewhat known as it's the origin of words like "Azure Sun", but neither of the existing gods claim to be the creator of the whole world from where Yliakum is just a part.
6) Talad and Laanx, as not the responsible for the creation of the whole world or of most of existing races, could be viewed differently according to each definition on what is a god.
7) Diaboli and Klyros are mentioned as mostly atheist.
Conclusion: The Ale Saints, although having an unsettling way of having the idea of atheism, are mostly fitting in PS Settings.
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I've already justified it several times. Here's the brief of everything I put as justifications:
1) It's on the Settings as you can create atheist characters.
2) Atheism had origins on Eastern philosophies and some of its basic premises to modern view on it came from Western philosophers
3) There's more than one religion in Yliakum. Of course besides those mentioned, there's also the Black Flame. It means it's a pretty heated up place on such matters.
4) Most races were brought by Laanx or Talad, not created by them, thus it opens space for philosophy on their origins.
5) The surface world is somewhat known as it's the origin of words like "Azure Sun", but neither of the existing gods claim to be the creator of the whole world from where Yliakum is just a part.
6) Talad and Laanx, as not the responsible for the creation of the whole world or of most of existing races, could be viewed differently according to each definition on what is a god.
7) Diaboli and Klyros are mentioned as mostly atheist.
Conclusion: The Ale Saints, although having an unsettling way of having the idea of atheism, are mostly fitting in PS Settings.
1) It doesn't matter what is in the settings. I could believe in invisable unicorns but I wouldn't be able to justify it.
2) Don't see what that has to do with it.
3) The religions are compatible with each other so I don't see what that has to do with it either.
4) Aye, one could speculate that there are other gods.
5) See 4.
6) True. They want worship however and to think that they won't be upset without it is silly.
7)That is a confusing use of the word. Doesn't justify being an atheist though.
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1) It doesn't matter what is in the settings. I could believe in invisable unicorns but I wouldn't be able to justify it.
2) Don't see what that has to do with it.
3) The religions are compatible with each other so I don't see what that has to do with it either.
4) Aye, one could speculate that there are other gods.
5) See 4.
6) True. They want worship however and to think that they won't be upset without it is silly.
7)That is a confusing use of the word. Doesn't justify being an atheist though.
1) Cortez was considered as a god by some of the American natives for example, there's no way to justify logically the belief in a god. Specially due to the way that Laanx and Talad reflect somewhat the old pantheons of gods with human-like attitudes.
2) It means that atheism is much older of a concept, even in a world where the exitence of gods was considered by most as truth. Also many of the natural phenomena like rainstorms were seen as proof of the existence of gods and of their manifestation due to lack of knowledge. Although in this case atheism is: The disbelief that the so called gods are really gods.
4 and 5) Or that there isn't any true god
6) Yes, just change the "Government" page and put "Yliakum is a despotic theocracy ruled by Talad and Laanx with iron fists where all those who refuse to worship are slaughtered". Also it means Klyros and Diaboli would probably be extinct.
7) Most klyros are atheist and most of those probably see Laanx as some kind of demon. Most diaboli refuse worshipping of gods as well.
This is my final message.
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Kay, let's set some things straight:
1) IT'S NOT AN ATHEISTIC GUILD, it just takes on a more secular and modern view of creation.
2) The views aren't even the main point of the guild (as will be explained in PART II; I would've written it already, but I'm busy preparing for an interview with a Harvard Alumnus and watching you two bicker).
3) The main point, instead, is that the guild is committed to supporting more unconventional views, no matter what they may be, and defending the persons who have the view from evil people like that Maletus.
4) As I said in number one, IT'S NOT AN ATHEISTIC GUILD. Therefore, I won't have to fit ale and atheism together. In addition, as I said earlier in the thread (thought I don't expect you both to have read it), the "Ale" part of the title is just being used poetically to express that the "Saints" of the guild are, in fact, not all that saintly, and yet still pure of heart and devout to SOMETHING (as the "Saints" part expresses).
5) The "Ale Saints" is also an obscure reference to the "baptism by ale" which occurred within PART I of the background story.
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There's no point raliegh. You don't listen. Makes more sense Xus. I'll wait for the next part.
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3) The main point, instead, is that the guild is committed to supporting more unconventional views, no matter what they may be, and defending the persons who have the view from evil people like that Maletus.
A guild that stands for everything that goes to defend and stand for those against the "mainstream" on world views, to defend people from prejudice, it's an interesting idea and I am waiting for more on its development.
There's no point raliegh. You don't listen.
I was about to say that to you :P
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Well I appreciate the interest, but actually, sadly, I'm putting the guild on hold for now. I've been so busy that I've not had a chance to even do anything for it beyond that stupid story thing. I mean, it is my senior year in High School, so I've got a ton of college preparations, big projects and other things that seem to occupy all my time.
So for those of you who expressed a genuine interest in the guild, I apolegize and I hope that one day I can, perhaps, make it happen. For those of you who feel as though your time has been wasted with this thread, suck it up. :D There were still a lot of useful comments and good debates made that will live on in your hearts for the rest of your lives! Plus, how do you think it is for me? I didn't plan for myself to be weighed down by the man.
So until that fateful day that something more is done with the Ale Saints, farewell all.