PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: zanzibar on February 15, 2007, 05:16:31 am
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This idea has been discussed a little in the past, but I think it deserves its own thread.
Right now, weapons have up to three modifiers. The first modifier is usually something that describes condition, such as worn or perfect. The second is the material used. The third is something esoteric like “of the clacker” or “of Talad’s arm”. There are a few known problems with the current settings, and people are mostly aware of them. Silverweave weapons are bugged. Iron weapons are more powerful than steel weapons. And so on. These are all things that will be worked out in time.
What I want to suggest is more far reaching than that, and it will be a real pain to code. It will take a lot of work and a lot of things will have to be redone in order to make it happen. Despite that, I think that if these suggestions came to realization, the item system would be far superior to the one we have now.
Here’s the list.
i. Make every weapon have a material.
This means that there will no longer be anything called a “dagger” or “short sword”. There will only be “iron daggers” and “steel daggers”, “silver short swords” and “bronze short swords”, and of course the equivalents for all other weapons and materials. This will make the weapons make more sense when compared to one another.
ii. Make every weapon have a condition. Make modifiers based on condition represent quality.
I can imagine that this is going to be very difficult to do, but it would be a dramatic improvement to the game. Basically, as weapons are used and their quality decreases, the condition modifier changes based on the quality value. Perfect weapons become masterwork weapons. Masterwork becomes fine, fine becomes polished, polished becomes worn, worn becomes scruffy, becomes ruined. I’m leaving qualifiers out and they might not be in that order, but that’s the general idea.
There are more than a few advantages to this system. It would mean we could hide the quality rating in the item description, just like the way it was when CB first came out. It will make it easier for new players to judge the quality of a weapon. It will make things make more sense – a perfect weapon with a quality of zero is ruined, but a ruined weapon of high quality might be a useable weapon. It would also make the auction chat more IC. Instead of people say “300 quality axes for sale”, they could say “Perfect axes for sale.” Trades would become safer, since you wouldn’t have to wait until after receiving the item to check its quality.
There are other benefits and changes that this would bring. I’m sure that you can think of some yourself.
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How would a shady merchant sell you shoddy merchandise masquerading as quality items? It isn't exactly possible now but it should be as misrepresentation is part of most commerce in reality.
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How would a shady merchant sell you shoddy merchandise masquerading as quality items? It isn't exactly possible now but it should be as misrepresentation is part of most commerce in reality.
If I sold you an iron dagger with quality 0/50, I doubt you'd be very pleased.
Do you have any other thoughts on this, or was that it?
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You on the other hand would likely be ecstatic, especially if the price was enormous. Are you suggesting that a con man is not a suitable RP device? How sanitized do we want to be?
Actually, it would be a better deal than an iron dagger with quality 20/20 though I do get your meaning. I could probably repair that to at least 45/45 if not 47/47 depending on how the repair system might be functioning atm
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Knowing the way the NPCs are "smart", selling fools gold to Harnquist might be a more profitable option for con men :devil:
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but you could melt it (the fools gold) down for iron and sell it to a player...
EDIT clarification added in brackets.
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You on the other hand would likely be ecstatic, especially if the price was enormous. Are you suggesting that a con man is not a suitable RP device? How sanitized do we want to be?
Actually, it would be a better deal than an iron dagger with quality 20/20 though I do get your meaning. I could probably repair that to at least 45/45 if not 47/47 depending on how the repair system might be functioning atm
I'm suggesting that people should be reasonably protected from griefing.
Let's try not to fixate on this one element of it. There are more significant aspects of the changes I'm proposing - including whether or not it's even possible.
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One can, if she tries, couch her descriptions in contextual terms, most people do not bother to try. It is possible your system would prevent that but it might also just cause people to convert to the old system when describing their items as the effectiveness would be testable and comparisons drawn.
I find this a little confusing:
a perfect weapon with a quality of zero is ruined, but a ruined weapon of high quality might be a useable weapon.
are not perfect and ruined either end of the same scale so that one item could not be both? and how can a ruined weapon be of high quality if ruined is the bottom of the quality scale? Would you mind restating it in more differentiated terms?
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Strength and condition would be accurately described by the modifiers. We could always hide the numbers and go back to the way things were when CB was new.
There are modifiers such as perfect, ruined, polished, etc. Ones that describe condition. They are set in stone and unchanging in the current system. Quality, however, can change. So you can have a perfect dagger with quality 0/50 and you can have a ruined dagger with quality 50/50.
In the new system, weapons with high quality ratings would be described as perfect, fine, etc. Weapons with low quality ratings would be described as ruined, scrappy, worn, etc.
Edit: I can't believe I bothered to type that all out. I didn't expect that anyone would get confused by this. Maybe you're just unfamiliar with the modifier system?
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So, if I understand you correctly, in the bit I quoted, you were mixing old system and new system descriptors?
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So, if I understand you correctly, in the bit I quoted, you were mixing old system and new system descriptors?
The proposed system would use the modifiers from the old system, but in a different way.
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I.) I absolutely love it. This would tell us what exactly is silverwave or spellwave material. Right now it is almost meaningles name. I'm a lot interested by the technology of producing different matrials.
II.) Bilbous, how can't you get it? ;P
you would see
/auction selling steel dagger of worn condition and fine quality
instead of
/auction selling 10/45 steel dagger
Also, every merchant and smarter warrior will ask for two values. Even if condition is 0, but quality 200, then he will pay more than for a weapon which is 100/100. That person will calculate how many repair kits are needed or rather the overal cost of repairing and then deduct it from price of the weapon if it was 199/199.
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I was actually thinking of condition and quality to be the same thing, but that's an interesting idea. It would probably get confusing though.
So you're saying there would be a static modifier decribing the quality of craftsmanship. There would be a changing modifier describing the state of repair the item is in. There would be a third modifier which would be again static which would describe the material used.
If it would be done, then that would be great. I think the line between "quality" and "condition" is a bit grey though. I was just thinking of having "condition material item".
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We have condition ----->50/50 <------ quality currently. I don't see a reason to change degrade it. What I say about is putting current numbers into words. Something what you have just said.
Condition is for instance how sharp the weapon and few other factors, which may change due to repairing.
Quality is how well the sword was made, what is quality of the material. It decrease due to repairing, as the material structure may got slightly damaged, as well as its amount will decrease due to sharpening and similiar, but we know how slightly it is happening in game currently. On a small note, I was proposing reforging option for those who own some special unique weapons of more than material value to the owner. In short, reforging would bring the Quality up.
Material - Steel for example. We know that there are different kinds of steel and it is directly connected with the Quality factor. Not only skill matters when doing a weapon, but also the quality of material.
As for the question if we should keep the numbers or not. I think we shouldn't to enforce the use of words in /auction channel. What we should put instead, is short bar. Something you can't interpret easly by words, but which would make a visible enough change, similiar to the change of numbers of the condition/quality. Colors, would make it better to spot.
Anyway, in effect we will see less numbers in chat, what is good i think.
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I don't see why this is really necessary. It would be nice to have it all fit together in a neat package, but there's far more important things to be worrying about... And by the time they're ready to implement this, the item system would probably already be very different what with the other crafting-skills, and it might not be applicable. (e.g. what do you call a gem-encrusted, Tefuskin-wrapped, high-quality, gold-riveted halberd?)
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I don't see why this is really necessary. It would be nice to have it all fit together in a neat package, but there's far more important things to be worrying about... And by the time they're ready to implement this, the item system would probably already be very different what with the other crafting-skills, and it might not be applicable. (e.g. what do you call a gem-encrusted, Tefuskin-wrapped, high-quality, gold-riveted halberd?)
It doesn't matter if there are more important things to worry about. If it's a good idea, then it's a good idea.
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I don't see why this is really necessary. It would be nice to have it all fit together in a neat package, but there's far more important things to be worrying about... And by the time they're ready to implement this, the item system would probably already be very different what with the other crafting-skills, and it might not be applicable. (e.g. what do you call a gem-encrusted, Tefuskin-wrapped, high-quality, gold-riveted halberd?)
Each weapon must be made of material and i gues the condition/quality also won't disappear, seeing that work was put into it and it is directly connected with repairing for example.
This idea will be valid for long, or at least bigger part of it.
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What is a dagger made out of? Iron? Steel? Then why are there also iron daggers and steel daggers with different stats?
Why can't a ruined dagger be repaired? How can a perfect dagger be in need of fixing?
Those are some reasons why the system could use "fixing".
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What is a dagger made out of? Iron? Steel? Then why are there also iron daggers and steel daggers with different stats?
Well that's obvious. The better a dagger is made, the better it will be. Someone who cocks up the process and accidentally creates a pocket of air inside their steel weapon will produce a much less effective blade than someone who uses bronze and makes it really well.
And a master-crafted blade could still be in need of repair. If it goes blunt, it's still masterfully crafted. If it breaks in two, it's still two parts of a masterfully crafted weapon. Sticking it back together might reduce the quality if you're not sure what you're doing (in other ways it could strengthen it if you know what to do), but the current system already accounts for that with the dip in quality upon repair.
I do like the idea of having a more structured identification-system for items though, but every crafted item should be unique anyway - unless they're being made by a machine - so there's only so much a name can account for...
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You misunderstood me. I didn't say it as well as I could have.
There are items called "dagger". But what are these items made out of? Since there are also "iron daggers" and "steel daggers", are we to understand that "daggers" are made of something other than iron or steel?
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could be chert or obsidian, I suppose the uber weapons could be made of shards of the crystal...
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could be chert or obsidian, I suppose the uber weapons could be made of shards of the crystal...
If that's the case (which it probably won't be), then there should be an indication of it in the item's label.
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could be chert or obsidian, I suppose the uber weapons could be made of shards of the crystal...
You do realise that for example steel has crystalic structure? (at leats without getting deeper into details) Saying that uber weapons should be made of crystal, you are probably refering to the precious stone materials, which are weak! So yeah, too much fantasy in your post.
And please, to people in general (inspired by someone up there ;P) when you try to compare a guy with good skills and bad material to a guy with poor skills, but good material, this is pointless comparison.
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Actually I was referring to the blue crystal that is central to the setting. Thus shards of the crystal and not some kind of crystal shard.
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Actually I was referring to the blue crystal that is central to the setting. Thus shards of the crystal and not some kind of crystal shard.
Cool, but does it make any difference?
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The Blue Crystal is made of the essence of magic and so a piece of it would not have mundane properties.
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The Blue Crystal is made of the essence of magic and so a piece of it would not have mundane properties.
Or perhaps the crystal simply channels energy from another source.
Either way, crystals can be very sharp but probably more brittle. This is all a tangent however and if you wish to discuss it you should start another thread. The topic of this thread is not the discussion of different materials that items could be made out of in the future.
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This
What is a dagger made out of? Iron? Steel? Then why are there also iron daggers and steel daggers with different stats?
would seem to open the door to the discussion, and from the thread originator to boot. I did however start another thread tangential to the tangent you object to here (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27680.0)
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That statement did not open a door to such tangents. The point is that when an item lacks a modifier describing the material, but other items of the same type can come with such modifiers, then one is led to believe that the item without those modifiers is made up of something other than what those modifiers indicate. That in and of itself is a problem.
The problem is further demonstrated by the fact that we know that normal weapons are made from steel. If a weapon has no modifier, then it is made out of steel. We know this is a fact because of the crafting system. However, weapons which are crafted using steel are not given the steel modifier, and there are steel weapons that have different stats.
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I have yet to see a plain steel weapon, I have seen specialized alloy such as "blue steel" but not merely a "steel" weapon. I haven't looked much lately though.
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I have yet to see a plain steel weapon, I have seen specialized alloy such as "blue steel" but not merely a "steel" weapon. I haven't looked much lately though.
Steel falchions are an obvious example.