PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: lordraleigh on February 25, 2007, 02:42:23 am
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Just recently I was informed that internally Yliakum is supposed to be a stable and peaceful land, without strifes and conflicts of any form, thus the realization comes that all the ideas I had for making a groupment of guilds may be out of the Settings, as a stable and internally peaceful land would never have space for the growth of progressive ideals. The same goes with most of my current characters.
Thus I need to know how far this "peacefulness" on Yliakum goes so I can properly decide whether I should or not continue here as all the ideas I have could be deemed as unsuitable for a highly stable land with uniformity of thought on its populace.
This is not another "I'm leaving" thread. I would rather stay, but if there's no space for such things, I don't see why should I waste my time creating something that goes against the Settings.
Lastly this came to me like a psychological bomb in the middle of the discussion about removing duels, I prefer to consider it as not a personal thing, but it's rather difficult, and it is another incentive to the choice of leaving if I decide to do it.
Lordraleigh: Bye-bye! Frankly I am tired of players threatening to leave. So if you're threatening to leave, just go and get it over with. Honestly. I don't really care :)
Although it's other matter that is the central point here, the 'peacefulness' of Hydlaa, and until which point it goes.
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This is not another "I'm leaving" thread.
If that were true.
Lastly this came to me like a psychological bomb in the middle of the discussion about removing duels, I prefer to consider it as not a personal thing, but it's rather difficult, and it is another incentive to the choice of leaving if I decide to do it.
Lordraleigh: Bye-bye! Frankly I am tired of players threatening to leave. So if you're threatening to leave, just go and get it over with. Honestly. I don't really care :)
This wouldn't be here.
It's a peaceful land. I believe that means that there is no outright war. Guilds may battle, there may be a bit of crime and such. But no town would attack another.
Also, the gouvernment is good enough so that there would be very few people opposing it.
That's my understanding. Though, you barely mention anything about your groupment so I'm not exactly sure if it fits or not.
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Just recently I was informed that internally Yliakum is supposed to be a stable and peaceful land, without strifes and conflicts of any form.
I told you that a long, long time ago.
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You mistake the pressence of law as complete peace. Perhaps you mistake the right to fight as the right to kill. Perhaps you mistake that if you want to do 'evil' things, then there should be no recourse.
The fact is, the population is supposted to be relitivly at peace with each other. Does that mean there are not fights once in a while? Does it mean there are not killings? No and no. It means it does not happen most of the time.
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Also, the gouvernment is good enough so that there would be very few people opposing it.
I still have some serious doubts about it
An Octarch can't be removed, nevertheless in some cases the Octarch was assassinated because it was too cruel, inept, dishonest, etc... One of the most famous cases is the one of Fertedian Dalko, Octarch of the 4th level, that was tied to a hypnotized Megaras and sent straight towards the Crystal.
Hierarchical rules were always plagued by very brutal rulers. Just see Rome: Nero and Caligula were amongst the worse.
Unless PS is supposed to become tolkienesque on "government" settings instead of realistic
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There is global peace, I'm pretty sure the current gouvernment is quite good ;)
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There is global peace, I'm pretty sure the current gouvernment is quite good ;)
Tolkienesque then, except that there isn't any "Mordor" here.
Also beggar characters should be removed then.
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Also, the gouvernment is good enough so that there would be very few people opposing it.
I still have some serious doubts about it
Is that because you godmoded their corruption and violence into your story, hm?
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Tolkienesque then, except that there isn't any "Mordor" here.
Stone Labyrinths? :)
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Why would beggars be removed. That would be a communist gouvernment, not necessarily a good one.
Stone Labyrinth's does not symbolize industrialization :P
It isn't organized
It isn't all dark
It's just dangerous.
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There is global peace, I'm pretty sure the current gouvernment is quite good ;)
There is no such thing as global peace in a realistic world. Neither is there a "good" government. At least not for long. There is always conflict, bloodshed, and such. I rp all kinds of evils, without worry. Also, the gouvernment is good enough so that there would be very few people opposing it.
I still have some serious doubts about it
Me too
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Also, the gouvernment is good enough so that there would be very few people opposing it.
I still have some serious doubts about it
Is that because you godmoded their corruption and violence into your story, hm?
Should I repeat that thing about Fertedian Dalko?
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About what? Wow, wait... You didn't link to something in a post! That's like Datruth not signing his posts!
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There is global peace, I'm pretty sure the current gouvernment is quite good ;)
There is no such thing as global peace in a realistic world. Neither is there a "good" government. At least not for long. There is always conflict, bloodshed, and such. I rp all kinds of evils, without worry. Also, the gouvernment is good enough so that there would be very few people opposing it.
I still have some serious doubts about it
Me too
I love this. We have groffles, magic, walking cats, lizard people and still consider it a realistic world? :P
By global peace I mean there is no organized, official war between two gouverning bodies.
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Isn't there just one government body ? :-\ Or did I just mess that up? What about a rising party? Nazi's came to power in Germany...whipped Europe, then had it bite them in the ass, etc.
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The conflicts are supposed to be between the players and the monsters and elements - not between the players and other players. That much is true. As far as leaving, there are plenty of reasons to leave but I don't think this is a particularly good one. What's wrong with people helping eachother and being nice?
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Yeah. And it isn't warring on itself :P
I guess just "No organized or significant war outside of the Stone Labyrinth" is what I am getting at.
And there is no mention of a rising party.
The game has a setting and something of a storyline. We can change that, creating a party to overthrow the gouvernment is alright. Just know you are doomed to fail.
Most of the actual RP will begin once there is more...game in Planeshift. For now, think of it as practice :P
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About what? Wow, wait... You didn't link to something in a post! That's like Datruth not signing his posts!
Great argument I'll break down easily:
http://www.planeshift.it/government.html (http://www.planeshift.it/government.html)
If there's no poverty, there's no point on having political ideas spreading around and there'll be nobody complaining.
I guess all Octarchs are genetically engineered to be honest, except for this one then and that corruption is non-existant otherwise
An Octarch can't be removed, nevertheless in some cases the Octarch was assassinated because it was too cruel, inept, dishonest, etc... One of the most famous cases is the one of Fertedian Dalko, Octarch of the 4th level, that was tied to a hypnotized Megaras and sent straight towards the Crystal.
But wait, it would contradict other things:
Nevertheless is not too rare to find some high citizens that are elected thanks to people acclamation, taking place of Vigesimi that are dead, that are judged inept or that are found to be guilty of thievery.
Other thing:
"Vigesimi", high civil servants that deal with law and order.
The meaning of dealing with law and order is pretty dependent on the type of government
In Soviet Union, killing political dissidents was "dealing with law and order" for example
The game has a setting and something of a storyline. We can change that, creating a party to overthrow the gouvernment is alright. Just know you are doomed to fail.
I have the impression that the Settings are somewhat "written on stone" from everything I saw.
Now in that case how could the Dark Empire acquire territory to become an actual government itself as well?
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Stone Labyrinth.
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I guess the idea of an "Eljar Republic" away from Yliakum isn't preposterous then.
Anyway that always were the focus of the organization I made.
My character isn't a kamikaze rebel.
Still the "good government" thing is pretty arguable
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You can have a goal of aquiring land. Can't really say you've had land.
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tammg
Anyway I wasn't arguing. I didn't know what you were talking about.
First, the settings pages aren't propeganda, they're the settings.
Second, the Dark Empire have bided their time for five years; how long have you been here and you're complaining.
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tammg
Anyway I wasn't arguing. I didn't know what you were talking about.
First, the settings pages aren't propeganda, they're the settings.
Second, the Dark Empire have bided their time for five years; how long have you been here and you're complaining.
If I didn't care about the Settings, I would simply keep my idea hidden. And this isn't an argument at all.
It's like saying: I was here first so you're wrong, period.
And I meant the idea of founding a Republic in the distant future.
And I don't wish to remain years with an unfitting idea to the Settings to suddenly be informed it won't fit.
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There's no point in talking to you. You're just feigning logic now.
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The setting is only present and past. You can have the idea of founding a republic in the distant future, sure.
Again, just realize that it's probably doomed to fail.
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There's no point in talking to you. You're just feigning logic now.
Trying to discredit me?
The setting is only present and past. You can have the idea of founding a republic in the distant future, sure.
Again, just realize that it's probably doomed to fail.
Same about the Dark Empire, building cities in the Stone Labyrinths is an enterprise with high risks of failure.
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Trying to discredit me?
Read what you're saying..
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Found nothing wrong, and it makes me wonder why you two are trying to demotivate me on pushing something forward,
I guess having competition on characters recruitment is bad, so better to bring it down OOC?
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I'm by no means trying to stop you. The settings are no reason to leave though.
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How am I demotivating you.
I'm saying there is a possibility, just not a good one.
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The conflicts are supposed to be between the players and the monsters and elements - not between the players and other players. That much is true. As far as leaving, there are plenty of reasons to leave but I don't think this is a particularly good one. What's wrong with people helping eachother and being nice?
I guess no conflict between opposing groups of civilized beings.
I'm by no means trying to stop you. The settings are no reason to leave though.
Once you have an idea that would hardly fit on them and that you dedicated some real time to it, and are informed you should scrap it out because it "won't fit the Settings", it is more than enough reason.
The problem is obvious:
A peaceful stable land with no internal conflicts/corruption/tyranny = A land devoid of political ideas
Also I wonder how could the Crimson Order Brotherhood (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=26964.0) background history fit then:
At first was a dream. Aegmar, a mere Ylian peasant was tired of working for a scornful and faraway lord, whom face he had never seen. Yet, for the security of his beloved family, he was enduring his burden silently, dismissing any thought of revolt or flight.
How am I demotivating you.
I'm saying there is a possibility, just not a good one.
Well because once I reach five RL years developing an idea and see it fall to dust, even being virtual, the disappointment would be somewhat real. But there'll be for sure contingency plans as it progress.
Still it's origin may be unjustifiable as previously mentioned.
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More one thing:
I would've expected for a project focusing on RP to give more space for it instead of straightjacketing it.
Monotony is not something people usually are looking for in a game, except if it is really complex to keep interest(Like SimCity).
I guess many of the guilds would need to depart due to those things.
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There are about ussualy 160 or so people averagely online in PS every day or so. When there is a guild war there is about 30+ estimated involved. that is almost 1/7 of the people alive in the game, you are telling me 1/7 of everyone is minor crime? pvp should no be wiped out. Pvp cant rule the world. has to be a moderation. To tell you the truth I dont see goverment, Gm's should try to reinforce some sort of law enforcement.
[btw my numbers...dont be a moron and start shooting off numbers saying im wrong, its an estimation].
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GMs are out-of-character "Game Moderators" - they cannot police the world and punish "bad characters." However in some GM events a thief may be turned over to the guards, or there may be attention from a Vigesimi, etc. Right now there really isn't much for the government to get involved in. At this time people fight mostly because they are bored and want something exciting to do, RP-fighting or not. There's a bit too much conflict than what there should be, but that's generally due to a lack of other features.
Lordraleigh: I know for a fact that many roleplays will have to be trashed or adapted when more of PlaneShift is released. You're not playing in a setting where everything is established, so some people (and yes sometimes even entire guilds) may be forced to change their stories when they learn more about the world they exist in. If "The majority of conflict comes from the Stone Labyrinth" bores you, you are completely free to find a game that suits your interests more. We are not here aiming to get as many players as possible because they're paying us :)
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What really bothers me is not the absence of armed conflict, but this insistency on the "good government" thing. IRL China is pretty peaceful and stable, still it is anything but a good government.
Strange, specially due to the fact you can choose "Political Career Failed" as a life event in character creation and it says that you worked for a Vigesimi that was assassinated due to political interests and decided to never try again getting into politics.
Also I wonder about the "Ideologies" choices on character creation.
I think those two things pretty much justify the existence of the organization.
My main question is:
Are the Settings written on stone?
If that is the case then guilds that involve into politics are all useless.
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Lastly I hope that there won't be a hardcore enforcement about this absence of conflicts, specially on outdoors areas, or many(if not all) would leave for feeling themselves straightjacketed(except for the 13375 that don't care about Settings of course). It would be a nightmare to see people being banned because they made guild wars in the fields outside Hydlaa as "It's not supposed to be a conflicting land!"
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Is the octarch goverment all good?
No it is not. And please stop comparing it to things like china and the nazies. Yes there are some good points in their goverments, but you are using that fact to say we should asume that if a goverment has the same general good points it HAS to have the bad points aswell. Point is if someone would describe the chinees goverment if he was objective he would definately write the bad things aswell, so if the setting doesn't mention any of such major opression issues or the like you can safely asume they aren't there.
The main problem with Antigoverment movements are that the goverment IS NOT IMPLEMENTED. So although I feel you could RP such a movement exists you can't just create one without the major problem that you have no idea, what so ever, what kind of problem you would get into with authorities and obviously it would be pointles to RP something like that if you don't take into account how someone like that would need to behave. For what actions you would get arrested and if there are Vigesemi who might misuse their power to get you evicted from your home.
How do you roleplay overthrowing something that is not there? Thats just swinging in the air and it will pretty soon just make the RP look cheap in my eyes.
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@Garile: It's not actually an anti-government movement. It's goal is not to ovethrow the existing government either, but to build a new one elsewhere in the distant future.
I guess you pretty summed up things. I'll just keep it running and hope nothing is done to have it 100% scrapped down.
Enough justifications for now(If these three things didn't exist in Character Creation, I would assume it wouldn't exist any political ground of opposing ideas):
"Politician Career Failed"
"Ideology of Freedom" X "Ideology of Rules"
"Ideology of Everyone" X "Ideology of One"
BTW I wasn't comparing it to China. I just pointed out that stability and peace(as the absence of war) does not necessarily means prosperity.
The question is answered: I will not leave and try to keep it on the Settings.
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There are about ussualy 160 or so people averagely online in PS every day or so. When there is a guild war there is about 30+ estimated involved. that is almost 1/7 of the people alive in the game, you are telling me 1/7 of everyone is minor crime? pvp should no be wiped out. Pvp cant rule the world. has to be a moderation. To tell you the truth I dont see goverment, Gm's should try to reinforce some sort of law enforcement.
[btw my numbers...dont be a moron and start shooting off numbers saying im wrong, its an estimation].
In two cities. And the people could be sleeping not just dead.
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Perhaps what is needed next is not another town or more of a town on this level is access to a small part of the Stone Labyrinth past the Bronze Doors. Possibly behind the door near the dark rogues, possible the rubble strewn cave at the far end of the rock wall beyond the guard post with the plank walkway leading to the dark rogue tunnels.
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'Peace' is relative. In a world teeming with rogues and monsters, where everyone has a sword and a fireball at the ready, I don't see how you could possibly say there's no conflict. We're the people of this world, I think we should be able to decide what the people are like.
The devs have enough to worry about with the history, settings, timeline, etc. I think part of the fun of all that is seeing how we, the players, react to the world they immerse us in
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OK, why dont we compromise instead of argung about "All peace no war, but small crime" and "all out war, small peace."
The conflict with the first on eis that things simply get boring? Why have armor craftsmen and such if they have nothing/nobody to fight? Sure, duels and arena fighting...but that only goes so far. Why cant there be a bigger confilct every now and then?
The conflict with the second is that people would be killing eachother all oer the place, Noobs would have NO chance at survival and Eventually one side will overpower the other. War is different than People running around killing eachother. Its a little more organised. Sides are chosen between powerful, reletively stable nations, and THEN they fight. and how can there be stability when everyone is killing eachother?
Solution (my opinion)
The Hydlaa Area should be reletively peaceful so newbs can get a grip on the controls and handleing. The city(s) that are designed like this could have a militia of NPCs that could defend the city if anyone actually tried to attack. other Non-Newb citys could war against eachother freely, but not in the sense that when your bored, you just march into some random city and start killing eachother. It should be more rare. So fighting is more exiting and intense. Im sure Armor and weapons dealers would get alot more buisness if there was a possibility of war.
There could be sort of an alliance function, where you can give your alliance to a certain side in a certian conflict. If you and another person were allies to the same side, you wouldnt be able to TK eachother, so people would know who to kill.
Pure peace is boring, pure war is chaotic. Lets mix em up so everyone's happy, eh?
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The society in Yliakum is evolving since centuries - 10 or so if i remember right. Additionally it evolved from a mix of different societies who happened to appear in the same place. Their technological level was also different. And just to give few examples:
Enkidukais being nomad people, a kind of society known before the real world medieval times (roughtly)
Ylians being classical medieval people
And Xacha being society past the time of medieval. Greeks centuries before christ? Maya peoples?
In Yliakum we don't have peoples from different time, but also regions. While the fantasy reality most close to our expectations is the medieval (most of us) - 500-1500 past christ in the europe. And so stories of our guilds. But life in Yliakum could have evolved in different way. The society could start as we know it from medieval Europe and then go in the direction of more peacefull land, without many conflicts and big wars imposible. Although people of Yliakum are relativey united against dangers coming from stone labirynths, there will be always greedy people wanting more for themselves than they need.
Telling that life in Yliakm is complete peacefull harmony is fairy tale. But sometimes it is better to tell this, to stop more people who are going extremly in exactly opposite direction.
/me looks a dozen posts before
Someone quoting my guild story \o/ Maybe some people don't realize this, but these events are meant to be few centuries old. At a time closer to the medieval europe. I been taking care fo it to be valid with PS history and after some talking it looks the described events were possible. Of course PS setting is evolving, but i doubt the PS world even at present century will be free of any cruelity. Someone has to pay the taxes and make food ad someon else has to keep it. We will see.
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The conflict with the first on eis that things simply get boring? Why have armor craftsmen and such if they have nothing/nobody to fight? Sure, duels and arena fighting...but that only goes so far. Why cant there be a bigger confilct every now and then?
I have no idea why I need to repeat "Stone Labyrinths" so many times... :)
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Karyuu> Stone Labyrinths!
player> stone Labyrinths?
karyuu> stone Labyrinths!
player> wha?
karyuu> stone Labyrinths!
player> huh?
karyuu> Stone Labyrinths!
....
:P
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The large amount of rogues out there and the gang of rogues in BD Road are OOC?
Two Words: Pax Yliakum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pax_Romana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pax_Romana)
Five "Good Emperors" of the Pax Romana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pax_Romana#The_.22Five_Good_Emperors.22_of_the_Pax_Romana)
In other words: very relative.
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The most important issue with wars inside Yliakum is simply that Yliakum is small. It is way larger than what is ingame ATM, but it still is only about the size of an average RL kingdom. If the information in the geography book at Jayose's is even remotely correct, then it is even possible to stand at the cavern wall one side of the first level and see right to the other side's wall! Additionally, there is a large hole in the land. Also, the land is 3D, not essentially flat like IRL, so the maximum distance between any two points is much smaller than in an RL kingdom. Add to this that one can already use very speedy transport (Pterosaurs) for important matters (like government business) and magic (even if it's by far not all-powerful), then it becomes clear that running such a country is much easier than it is IRL, and even RL kingdoms rarely had internal wars.
The general feel of Yliakum is that of a "golden era", seeing that a large percentage of the population is literate and science clearly is thriving everywhere.
The Char Creation itself feels much like a temporary placeholder to me. The options that were brought up aren't the only ones that don't really fit in with the setting, so it shouldn't be used to found RP on (even though this is very unfortunate, seeing that it is the only settings-like thing that most newbies are exposed to ATM). Staying with the matters on hand, the conflict between the settings and the CC is not so much "How can a political career fail due to assassination if the government is good?", and instead it must be "How can there be a political career if the government rarely has any elections?".
The government of Yliakum certainly isn't perfect, and the setting doesn't imply that AFAICS. It does, however, imply that there is some sort of effective democracy, since officials that are too much out of the line can be removed by several, even organised, means. However, it also implies that this is rarely necessary.
How is that possible if the Yliaki don't think radically different from RL humans (which they might still, as it would take only a little less greed and pride to have a more stable society)? The answer to this is is also in the setting: Talad. There once upon a time (hundreds or even thousands of years ago, though), there almost was a civil war, between Ylians and Enkidukai about ownership of the first two levels (for farming). The conflict has long been resolved by Talad himself intervening, and the Korogan passage is the most prominent (only?) remainder ftom that time, a monument of peace.
Thus, obviously even in the case of the Yliakum government failing catastrophically, Talad can be expected to stabilise things. This leaves plenty of room for the odd murder and some thievery, even for intrigues and such, just nothing earth-shattering.
The government itself doesn't seem to be god-given, and therefore it certainly is possible for people to think up alternate concepts ("I can do better!"). However, due to the comparatively stable society, they'll not easily find followers, and will need to look for unclaimed land outside the stalactite (knowing that there will likely be no Talad to stabilise things).
In another thread there already was some argument about the rogues, and I still think they are there simply because there's no other place to put them yet, so more or less OOC, yes.
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The Char Creation itself feels much like a temporary placeholder to me. The options that were brought up aren't the only ones that don't really fit in with the setting, so it shouldn't be used to found RP on.
Do you mean Talad didn't participate on the development of such system to guarantee it's currently fitting with the Settings?
Character Creation is a too much important part of the Settings to simply be ignored on whether it fits or not with the Settings, thus the "Political Career Failed" must be acceptable or Talad would not let it go.
I have serious doubts about such claims.
The government of Yliakum certainly isn't perfect, and the setting doesn't imply that AFAICS. It does, however, imply that there is some sort of effective democracy,
Vigesimi normally come from the Craft Guilds of each level, and their position is hereditary
Government is pretty much a mix of hereditary rule and oligarchy, with only some exceptions of people that are "elected", and as the the page says:
An Octarch can't be removed, nevertheless in some cases the Octarch was assassinated because it was too cruel, inept, dishonest, etc..
One of the most famous cases is the one of Fertedian Dalko, Octarch of the 4th level, that was tied to a hypnotized Megaras and sent straight towards the Crystal.
It did not happen only once.
The question here is pretty much what some people wish PS to be(And not regarding only to violent conflict):
Unbelievable, Static and Monotonous Utopia X Realistic, Dynamic and Changing World
In more exact words: Written on Stone or Dynamic?
Which of them makes things more interesting? Which of them gives more choices to roleplaying? I stay with the latter.
If it is really intended to become the first, then would those who look at it realistically be banned for "bad roleplaying"?
RPing will be very similar to "acting" then, as it will be very limited on scope.
"Acting" on an 100% peaceful utopia with 100% linear storyline is not interesting to me and to most.
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Do you mean Talad didn't participate on the development of such system to guarantee it's currently fitting with the Settings?
Aye, that's essentially what I'm saying.
Character Creation is a too much important part of the Settings to simply be ignored on whether it fits or not with the Settings, thus the "Political Career Failed" must be acceptable or Talad would not let it go.
One'd think so, but then again, the CC changed dramatically from the one in MB, and I am under the impression that such a change will happen again some time in the future. Just look at all the parts of the CC that have no mention in the setting at all (like the months and their effects on people), or that outright contradict the settings (like the race-based settlements being the rule, not the exception).
Then look at the things that aren't even possible to begin with (Crystal Eclipse, selectable for every single player) and it becomes clear (at least to me) that the CC is to be treated with extreme caution.
Vigesimi normally come from the Craft Guilds of each level, and their position is hereditary
Government is pretty much a mix of hereditary rule and oligarchy, with only some exceptions of people that are "elected", and as the the page says:
I know that full well.
An Octarch can't be removed, nevertheless in some cases the Octarch was assassinated because it was too cruel, inept, dishonest, etc..
One of the most famous cases is the one of Fertedian Dalko, Octarch of the 4th level, that was tied to a hypnotized Megaras and sent straight towards the Crystal.
It did not happen only once.
Exactly. This event hardly passes as "assassination", though. Now, who gets to decide that the Octarch is too cruel, inept, etc.? It looks like it's the people, in one way or another, since they're usually the only ones who actually care for cruel, inept rulers (everyone else tends to be perfectly fine with them).
That's why I said effective democracy, meaning that the population can influence the government, even though there rarely are elections.
The question here is pretty much what some people wish PS to be(And not regarding only to violent conflict):
"Acting" on an 100% peaceful utopia with 100% linear storyline is not interesting to me and to most.
I assumed I had answered this already, but a summary seems to be in order, then:
It's not going to be 100% linear, and it's even planned that, in the far future, players can be part of the government. It's not 100% peaceful, but mostly.
It can't be different IMO, simply because if it were all player-run, there'd very soon be complete chaos. Yes, PvP can also establish a more or less stable system, but is that system necessarily realistic? Nope, it isn't, not even mostly. The only realism that it has is that "the strongest one wins". That is, however, independant on RP.
The same goes for the government: if everything that any player concieves as government could be made to happen in Yliakum, then there would not only be constant revolutions just for the heck of it, but also things that aren't likely or that aren't wanted. So there must be a tight control on what is allowed to happen in that respect. Why? Because it affects everyone ingame, not just those who decide that their idea is great, or even just fun.
IOW, the more players it is going to affect, the more control must be retained and the harder must it be to get changed by players. This is also in the interest of realism, given that Yliakum has reportedly been very stable for hundreds of years at least. Thus, the system obviously works reasonably well, too well for some revolution to appear out of the sudden, just because some bunch of players decides it'll be fun or interesting (to them, not necessarily to the rest of the playerbase).
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Do you mean Talad didn't participate on the development of such system to guarantee it's currently fitting with the Settings?
Aye, that's essentially what I'm saying.
I really doubt about that, knowing the centralized way that PS Development works(If GM Events need the approval of Talad, why would Character Creation be done without it?)
Character Creation is a too much important part of the Settings to simply be ignored on whether it fits or not with the Settings, thus the "Political Career Failed" must be acceptable or Talad would not let it go.
One'd think so, but then again, the CC changed dramatically from the one in MB, and I am under the impression that such a change will happen again some time in the future. Just look at all the parts of the CC that have no mention in the setting at all (like the months and their effects on people), or that outright contradict the settings (like the race-based settlements being the rule, not the exception).
Then look at the things that aren't even possible to begin with (Crystal Eclipse, selectable for every single player) and it becomes clear (at least to me) that the CC is to be treated with extreme caution.
Just because the races are somewhat integrated, does it necessarily mean there won't be villages inhabited by one race? There are clear distinctions between each race culture and architecture in the Planeshift art and on their "psychology" descriptions. About "Crystal Eclipse", it is not easy to make a proper way of distributing "rare traits" for characters that will minimize people complaining "It's unfair I can't make a character born in the Crystal Eclipse while the dude there...". I take the CC as canon, though some of its elements should be rare and sometimes blocked.
Also the Settings Pages obviously doesn't have all the details about the Settings
An Octarch can't be removed, nevertheless in some cases the Octarch was assassinated because it was too cruel, inept, dishonest, etc..
One of the most famous cases is the one of Fertedian Dalko, Octarch of the 4th level, that was tied to a hypnotized Megaras and sent straight towards the Crystal.
It did not happen only once.
Exactly. This event hardly passes as "assassination", though. Now, who gets to decide that the Octarch is too cruel, inept, etc.? It looks like it's the people, in one way or another, since they're usually the only ones who actually care for cruel, inept rulers (everyone else tends to be perfectly fine with them).
That's why I said effective democracy, meaning that the population can influence the government, even though there rarely are elections.
I wonder how "the people" could murder an Octarch bypassing all the guards, military, etc. Such type of actions usually are done by "loyal" subjects inside the government or by "professionals". And as it was said "too dishonest,etc", not "dishonest,etc", which means there is either some kind of tolerance from the masses or that such bad Octarchs were removed from the government by others to prevent a major uprising.
The question here is pretty much what some people wish PS to be(And not regarding only to violent conflict):
"Acting" on an 100% peaceful utopia with 100% linear storyline is not interesting to me and to most.
I assumed I had answered this already, but a summary seems to be in order, then:
It's not going to be 100% linear, and it's even planned that, in the far future, players can be part of the government.
That means there'll be conflict for achieving political power and influence, although this conflict will not be of the obvious, public and clearly violent type.
It can't be different IMO, simply because if it were all player-run, there'd very soon be complete chaos. Yes, PvP can also establish a more or less stable system, but is that system necessarily realistic? Nope, it isn't, not even mostly. The only realism that it has is that "the strongest one wins". That is, however, independant on RP.
Not in the case of a seriously done roleplay where all consequences and risks are measured up. Player versus Player can be more than just raising arms one against other.
The same goes for the government: if everything that any player concieves as government could be made to happen in Yliakum, then there would not only be constant revolutions just for the heck of it, but also things that aren't likely or that aren't wanted. So there must be a tight control on what is allowed to happen in that respect. Why? Because it affects everyone ingame, not just those who decide that their idea is great, or even just fun.
Most of them would ultimately fail, or be treated as OOC. Tight control? This means keeping things "written on stone" that even a guild that would exist for 10 RL years(for now equivalent of 60 Yliakum Years) couldn't change? I am more for a dynamic system, but it should be like the Stone Labyrinths: you can mess with things in the shadows, but there would be several challenges ahead if you wanted to gain control over something. Also the "tribes system" will give another point for conflicts, both with and without physical violence.
IOW, the more players it is going to affect, the more control must be retained and the harder must it be to get changed by players. This is also in the interest of realism, given that Yliakum has reportedly been very stable for hundreds of years at least. Thus, the system obviously works reasonably well, too well for some revolution to appear out of the sudden, just because some bunch of players decides it'll be fun or interesting (to them, not necessarily to the rest of the playerbase).
Revolutions don't "appear of a sudden", thus it is realistic to consider that 750 AY won't be the year one would suddenly happen. Many of them In Real World History were based on ideas that existed for centuries and some of the successful ones are claimed to even be the result of years of conspiracies by some people. "Monarchy" existed for millenia before being finally being overthrown by "Republic" as the dominant form of government for example.
Now about the "Talad influence" to keep things in check in Yliakum like in the case of the Enkidukais X Humans conflict, it is pretty much a choice between "safety" and "freedom" to remain or to move bravely to distant and won't make everybody happy and consented. And for people that live in poverty, a chance of moving to another "better place" to get a new life is always interesting if properly presented by a strong, charismatic individual.
Also the population overcrowding is more than enough of a reason to justify attempts of settling new lands.
And although not fully fitting, it pretty much sums what some would feel about this "stability" and "security" in Yliakum, and push them to have ideas on leaving:
(http://www.claybennett.com/images/archivetoons/security.jpg)
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I really doubt about that, knowing the centralized way that PS Development works(If GM Events need the approval of Talad, why would Character Creation be done without it?)
OK, then maybe it was checked and OK'd by Talad, just not reviewed for settings compliance, then. Alternatively, by that time it might have been regarded as not yet required (almost all of the RP emphasis, guidelines and rules have been set up well after CB was out). In fact, PS has gone from almost zero to the current state in that time WRT consistent RP, and the CC had been created well before the release of CB, so there indeed is a good chance of a less than complete check.
Just because the races are somewhat integrated, does it necessarily mean there won't be villages inhabited by one race? There are clear distinctions between each race culture and architecture in the Planeshift art and on their "psychology" descriptions.
I consider "half of the population is married to a partner of another race" way more than "somewhat" integrated.
Given that there will be relatively few big cities, which won't contain close to the majority of the population, it necessarily follows that the small cities and villages are highly mixed, too. Yes, there can be exceptions, especially in placs that suit only one or two races, but that'd still be the exception, not the rule.
About "Crystal Eclipse", it is not easy to make a proper way of distributing "rare traits" for characters that will minimize people complaining "It's unfair I can't make a character born in the Crystal Eclipse while the dude there...".
The only proper way is to not provide such options.
I take the CC as canon, though some of its elements should be rare and sometimes blocked.
I regard it as something to give a general idea, an impression of what RP is like, and possibly to draw inspiration from, and mostly just an attempt at removing numbers from the game. I feel in no way bound by it, and consider it to not be part of the settings.
Also the Settings Pages obviously doesn't have all the details about the Settings
Clearly. However, this doesn't mean that anything that isn't there can be filled in by anything. The time when something becomes part of the setting is when it is included on the settings page or, to a much lesser degree, put into the NPC communication.
I wonder how "the people" could murder an Octarch bypassing all the guards, military, etc. Such type of actions usually are done by "loyal" subjects inside the government or by "professionals".
This applies to an actual assassination, but not to something like the megaras incident. I assume that indeed both do happen, but the fact that that event was mentioned implies that it's not uncommon nor regarded as unduly. If it were, then it would have causes major commotion, including either or both a lot of follow-up executions or military action.
It seems likely that the Vigesimi could also publicly initiate such an action.
And as it was said "too dishonest,etc", not "dishonest,etc", which means there is either some kind of tolerance from the masses or that such bad Octarchs were removed from the government by others to prevent a major uprising.
There obviously always is a level of tolerance for anything, if for no reason other than phlegm. Just look at the western "democracys", where the population could, in theory, get rid of the officials using organised and legal means; yet, there is quite a massive amount of dishonesty present.
That means there'll be conflict for achieving political power and influence, although this conflict will not be of the obvious, public and clearly violent type.
Which is exactly the way I see it, aye.
Not in the case of a seriously done roleplay where all consequences and risks are measured up. Player versus Player can be more than just raising arms one against other.
Absolutely, yes. But do you really believe that the majority, or even a significant minority of players would care for / be capable of using it in this ideal fashion? I seriously doubt that. Just look at the way PvP, even as limited as it is in PS, is being (ab)used all the time. Now consider what will happen if there actually was something (anything!) to be gained from it...
Most of them would ultimately fail, or be treated as OOC. Tight control? This means keeping things "written on stone" that even a guild that would exist for 10 RL years(for now equivalent of 60 Yliakum Years) couldn't change? I am more for a dynamic system, but it should be like the Stone Labyrinths: you can mess with things in the shadows, but there would be several challenges ahead if you wanted to gain control over something. Also the "tribes system" will give another point for conflicts, both with and without physical violence.
There is a number of shades in between "written in stone" and "completely dynamic". I believe things should be 90% written in stone, meaning quite a high threshold for players to actually change something significant. But the chance should be there, controlled and supervised by the settings team.
It is interesting that you mention the discrepancy of ingame clock and RL clock. I think that this further shows that there must be a tight control, because players change very very frequently, even by ingame clock standards. Most players don't last an RL year, and in each RL year, there can easily be several bids for stalactite domination. This would mean that the ingame government would change once per year, even if one ingame year lasted only one RL month.
Clearly, the ingame timeline needs to be severely elongated, meaning that the time between revolutions would become even smaller than it would already be.
I know that castle sieges and such things from other MMO"RP"Gs have some charme. However, they are primarily something to keep the player busy, and by far don't encourage RP in any way. Therefore, having a high threshold for possible changes, and a settings-team based implementation (or refusal) process is the only way to keep things from going out of control both in terms of speed and in terms of RP quality.
However, I am under the impression that we aren't actually disagreeing on the matter, and more on the formulation?
Revolutions don't "appear of a sudden", thus it is realistic to consider that 750 AY won't be the year one would suddenly happen. Many of them In Real World History were based on ideas that existed for centuries and some of the successful ones are claimed to even be the result of years of conspiracies by some people. "Monarchy" existed for millenia before being finally being overthrown by "Republic" as the dominant form of government for example.
Granted. However, having a different governmental system every year (or even every decade) for an extended period still counts as "all of the sudden". If we look at the unstable regions IRL (where the government actually changed frequently), they more or less either swap between a dictatorship and a democracy, or between two dictatorships.
Now about the "Talad influence" to keep things in check in Yliakum like in the case of the Enkidukais X Humans conflict, it is pretty much a choice between "safety" and "freedom" to remain or to move bravely to distant and won't make everybody happy and consented. And for people that live in poverty, a chance of moving to another "better place" to get a new life is always interesting if properly presented by a strong, charismatic individual.
Indeed, though there can be a balance between freedom and stability that makes most people happy, which in turn means few interest in change.
Poor people also are easy to get to follow you regardless of your actual goals, it matters only how well you tailor your propaganda to their wishes. Mainly it's required to claim they'll be getting a better life "once we're in control", and they'll endure almost any abuse you inflict on them.
Also the population overcrowding is more than enough of a reason to justify attempts of settling new lands.
There's no doubt in that, but settling elsewhere and staging a revolution are different things entirely.
And although not fully fitting, it pretty much sums what some would feel about this "stability" and "security" in Yliakum, and push them to have ideas on leaving:
This line of thought doesn't even concern many people today (sadly), let alone in Yliakum where life, even with magic, still is significantly different from today, leaving even less time for such musing. IMO, people would be motivated to revolt only if they believe to gain immediate bettering of living conditions, and care not much about more abstract things like freedom. Especially not if the regime isn't actually oppressive. Thus the Yliakum government should indeed be pretty stable.
Then again, even oppressive and exploitive regimes in huge countries can be stable, as the romans have shown. Also, stability increases if there is a common enemy, as contemporary history shows once again, and this enemy is not even an abstract one, but real, in form of the stone labyrinths. Given that they have more than a few entrances into Yliakum, this threat is everpresent, too. Thus, people will support even a less than optimal regime if it provides them with safety.
P.S.: nice image!
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I nominate the above post as the most boring and least read post in the history of this forum. Challengers anyone? :-)
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Hmmm...I can make a challenger if you want :P
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I nominate the above post as the most boring and least read post in the history of this forum. Challengers anyone? :-)
Hmm, you don't know Seytra :P