PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Ecuetas on February 28, 2007, 10:55:07 pm
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Ok Devs I want to pose a question. But not trying to be insulting about it. So bare with me.
One, you change our method of dueling, which no one likes, but it's clear you don't care about that. So we're getting use to that.
Two, the money cap of 250k. You're not letting the PS Economy stabilize, why? Do you not value your players and their opinions?
Three the new steel stocks max is getting to just about every crafter there is, do you not want us to help restabilize the economy in game? Or do you just not want the players to have anything of value in game?
Four, what's going on with the NPC Client? Oh wow! you messed some of the coding up while doing the update and they don't fight back, there is still a challenge there because if you remember, YOU placed caps on certain NPC's, like the Ulbernaughts, you need atleast swords 26 to be able to even remotely attack them. So there is still challenge there.
Five, offering Chainmail pants to only select players, well that indicates favoritism.
My wish list is this, stop messing up the game. Let us advise what could be better, and attempt to do something about it. I've listed 5 of the key things that are on the players minds for the last couple of days. And as you know, I'm not one to keep my head down when something can be done. So if I insulted you in posting this, then you have my apologies. But you need to heed the advise of your players, because we're not just players, we're your alpha-beta testers.
You think someone is going to want to come in game in a day and not have the means to gain Progression Points to better their character? Cause they wont. And the quest that give major experience points, require things to be killed and items to be collected. Can't do that with the NPC client down, so not every character has mining, if you're gonna keep the NPC client down, atleast make mining level 1 for the next few days an already given in the coding for creating characters, and if you're gonna force us players/testers to get our PP through mining, atleast give us more experience per nugget dug up, and more experience per missed shot. And devs, Im not one in painful need of PP, I have saved up over 32k PP. Im just saying for other players because that is on their minds.
Well there you have it, everyone's thinking it, I just say it. This . . . . game, isn't a game anymore. . . It's a job basically with what you have done lately. I've spent about 1/3 of the time I'm on, looking for glitches, listening to players. And come here and post. That's a job, not a game. Sorry to say, I kinda wanna have both, job and game. Not just a job
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Again i will say there is NO tria cap ingame
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One thing on this players mind is the obsession with OOC chat in the main channel. Once in a while is fine, but if you are going to have a whole conversation that is completely OOC (ie. about lag, or npcs being down etc..) just make a group or use tells. It just pollutes the channel and really really ruins the atmosphere. i can deal with NPCs being down, and weird other bugs. But the players DO make the game in a sense. So let's all make it a better place. I mean, why not?
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Aye, the OOC crap is terrible. One thing about what Ecuetas said though; is the game all about pp for you? Is it really a job without it? I think if it is you have the wrong game.
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NO characters get items from gms unless they are involved in an event. So no one should have chaim mail pants or just about any other item that is not available for players to buy or loot from npc.
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I do kinda feel sorry for new players who cant gain PP. But the fact remains that this is a game in development and you are always going to get things screwed up by the implementation of new stuff. Even just when someone tries to tidy up the code. Its something that we should really just live with and when its fixed we will look back with fond memories of that time when we didnt just stand in front of mobs and attack them all day, when we actually spoke to people and explored the game and what it has to offer. ;)
The chainmail pants thing? Isnt that just being a little jealous? Ive seen them around and would like some, but im not going to complain about it, its they're to encourage you to get involved in events.
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My wish list is this, stop messing up the game.
My wish is this, learn some respect :] Until you do, I'm not going to reply to any of the "points" you have made.
Tough love.
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My wish list is this, stop messing up the game.
Yeah! Why are you doing this to us? why the heck do you develop this game? Can't it be as it is now so that we all can have fun? ;P
EDIT: What did we do to you, so that you are so cruel? :'(
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I do kinda feel sorry for new players who cant gain PP. But the fact remains that this is a game in development and you are always going to get things screwed up by the implementation of new stuff. Even just when someone tries to tidy up the code. Its something that we should really just live with and when its fixed we will look back with fond memories of that time when we didnt just stand in front of mobs and attack them all day, when we actually spoke to people and explored the game and what it has to offer. ;)
The chainmail pants thing? Isnt that just being a little jealous? Ive seen them around and would like some, but im not going to complain about it, its they're to encourage you to get involved in events.
Encouragement to GM Events in the form of rewards should be IC, not OOC. All items given should be considered as rare in Yliakum to be such type of IC rewards(Or perhaps just some nice amount of tria could be fine, specially due to the fact that for now mass-questing to sell items given as reward to quests, grinding and looting spawnable mobs, mining gold, iron or coal, casting stocks and crafting weapons are the only ways to earn tria - and the ones in bold are sadly the best ones - ).
And I doubt chain mail pants would be a rare item IC for example. I don't think limiting new features like it(A non-rare item) as GM Events rewards is a nice idea.
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Since practically all improvements we make are seen as steps backward by some, the only way to avoid worsening the game and caring about the players is to actually just stop work.
Of course, people both prefer the way it used to be and the way it is now, and both think the game sucks and the game before was better, I think we're in a logically impossible place other than to just start rolling back the code, taking out feature after feature until everyone left is happy. Those remaining 20 people will be VERY happy though, right? :-)
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Vengeance is right! We should have in-game strip clubs!
Wait...
Damn, it was a dream again...
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One, you change our method of dueling, which no one likes, but it's clear you don't care about that. So we're getting use to that.
You're generalizing, the number of people complaining is actually quite small compared to the people playing every day.
Two, the money cap of 250k. You're not letting the PS Economy stabilize, why? Do you not value your players and their opinions?
What cap, there is no cap!
Three the new steel stocks max is getting to just about every crafter there is, do you not want us to help restabilize the economy in game? Or do you just not want the players to have anything of value in game?
Crafting is a work-in-progress, if this new cap really inhibits crafters in doing their job, it will be changed for the better, obviously. You're the first person I hear complaining about this, though.
Four, what's going on with the NPC Client? Oh wow! you messed some of the coding up while doing the update and they don't fight back, there is still a challenge there because if you remember, YOU placed caps on certain NPC's, like the Ulbernaughts, you need atleast swords 26 to be able to even remotely attack them. So there is still challenge there.
If you had informed yourself right, you would've known that the developers are investigating an issue where players would be teleported to the locations of NPCs. It's not true that "fighting was broken" with the last update. It's just a debugging process, if you can't handle that you can better leave, because PS is a debugging process in itself.
Five, offering Chainmail pants to only select players, well that indicates favoritism.
Participate in GM events yourself then if you want one.
you think someone is going to want to come in game in a day and not have the means to gain Progression Points to better their character?
After the issues with the players-teleporting-to-npcs thing are fixed, NPCclient will be turned back on and everything will be back to normal. The world is not ending. Besides, this is still a roleplaying game, if someone decides not to play this game because they temporarily can't kill monsters, they might not be the correct players for this game.
I've spent about 1/3 of the time I'm on, looking for glitches, listening to players. And come here and post. That's a job, not a game. Sorry to say, I kinda wanna have both, job and game. Not just a job
Who's issue is this? You're the one who's apparently spending 1/3 of his time hunting down bugs, if you don't want PS to become a job to you, just stop doing that and have fun. By the way, job? If you call that a job, imagine what the devs are going through.
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One, you change our method of dueling, which no one likes
I like it. I think they should have gone further with it.
the money cap of 250k
myth
You're not letting the PS Economy stabilize
The trias wipe was done to stabilize the economy.
the new steel stocks max
What is this? I haven't heard of it.
what's going on with the NPC Client?
It's turned off for a good reason and it will be turned back on when the time is right.
offering Chainmail pants to only select players
Sucks, since GM events are rare and you have to be in the right place at the right time to participate in them. C'est la vie.
I've listed 5 of the key things that are on the players minds for the last couple of days.
By "the players", you of course mean "my circle of friends and myself", I assume. Not everyone agrees on these.
You think someone is going to want to come in game in a day and not have the means to gain Progression Points to better their character?
I would hope a person could have fun playing Planeshift without ever killing something or levelling up.
This . . . . game, isn't a game anymore. . . It's a job basically with what you have done lately. I've spent about 1/3 of the time I'm on, looking for glitches, listening to players. And come here and post. That's a job, not a game. Sorry to say, I kinda wanna have both, job and game. Not just a job
It shouldn't be a job... it's a game. If it feels like a job, then something is wrong. I don't think you should stop playing the game, but perhaps a break would be healthy?
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Hey Zanzibar, stop duplicating my posts :P
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Ecuetas, Your a wienie. Find a new game. :P
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I made 50k gold killing glads and rogues over the last couple nights I guess you just have bad luck with the npc-client.
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Well... I agree on some things..
People should get more experience from mining... and even get some when they miss... they should be able to "learn from their mistakes".
The dueling system changes were unwelcome for many and a list containing quite a lot of players opposing it was posted. (Though I admit many people have got used to the changes since so the complaints have pretty much disappeared... not that the complaints had much effect.)
Also, regarding the 250k-capped-tria-wipe... It did suck... but wipes are inevitable, so, there's really no point worrying about it, it's also not going to effect newer players. I'll be laughing on the day they say the stats are getting wiped... I can imagine some people are going to freak out.
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I haven't seen a single new valid complaint in this thread.
I've seen a few that I at least agree with. Simply because any one person (such as yourself in this case) doesn't perceive any of the points here to be valid doesn't mean that some aren't relevant or valid, besides a complaint is a complaint and it was made in the correct forum board. I worry that you perhaps are entering into a bit of burnout sometimes since as a forum mod its easy to become more and more defensive over time. It happens, and I'm not saying you are actually burned out or a bad mod but you seem a bit more defensive of late, or at last in this particular case, so I worry about that happening to the mods.
/me quickly turns to his new "sarcastic" tone and proceeds:
People should get more experience from mining... and even get some when they miss... they should be able to "learn from their mistakes".
ZOMG A GOOD POINT! Hey look I found a valid complaint! Can't believe I almost missed it in the 10 seconds I spent scanning this page....
</sarcasm>
It actually is a good point. Some people don't want to have to kill monsters just for PP's and it wouldn't be hard to balance it up a bit so miners could actually get useful amounts of PP's from practicing. Can't say there are no valid points in this thread because its definitely too subjective to opinion to say with certainty. There could be complaints here (maybe all of them) that the devs are planning on ignoring or fixing I guess - but if they were planning on fixing any of that wouldn't that mean it was considered a "valid complaint?"
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It may be a good point but it isn't exactly new is it?
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That wasn't my point. Either way it IS the complaint department. Complaining about complaints seems well.... stupid to me. He came to complain... he complained.... the end.
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where else do you complain about complaints other than the complaint department? More srict rules need to be worked out for this forum section me thinks.
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Simply because any one person (such as yourself in this case) doesn't perceive any of the points here to be valid doesn't mean that some aren't relevant or valid, besides a complaint is a complaint and it was made in the correct forum board.
I didn't say that no complaints were valid - I said that they weren't new, and they weren't worded in an inoffensive way, no matter what the original poster was trying. I was insulted when I was, evidently, asked to "stop messing up the game" as a dev. Yeah, we mess up and there are bugs. But how fair is it to talk to the dev team like we're ruining the game by building it. And it's not just an isolated incident. I got an email a couple of days ago asking why a dev is interfering with RP by resetting the server, as if we do it arbitrarily to piss people off.
I worry that you perhaps are entering into a bit of burnout sometimes since as a forum mod its easy to become more and more defensive over time. It happens, and I'm not saying you are actually burned out or a bad mod but you seem a bit more defensive of late, or at last in this particular case, so I worry about that happening to the mods.
I'm defensive because I'm running into all sorts of pokes in the side lately, and ignoring all the wrongs that people say is very hard for me, especially as the number of them grows in time. I will take your comment as a request to cool down some. But, I don't see myself as any more defensive than "usual" in this case. When I'm being criticized for something I'm not doing, I feel the need to respond.
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I didn't say that no complaints were valid - I said that they weren't new, and they weren't worded in an inoffensive way, no matter what the original poster was trying.
Thats true I did miss the word new there. What I'd like to know though is if there is an acceptable time to wait to complain about something thats been complained about before? People are always coming and going, new people haven't taken part in the discussions of old times, so old points get brought up over and over because there are new people to discuss it, or a different parallax on the same complaint. If we were only allowed to discuss any one topic just once, the forums would die of inactivity.
was insulted when I was, evidently, asked to "stop messing up the game" as a dev. Yeah, we mess up and there are bugs. But how fair is it to talk to the dev team like we're ruining the game by building it. And it's not just an isolated incident. I got an email a couple of days ago asking why a dev is interfering with RP by resetting the server, as if we do it arbitrarily to piss people off.
I kind of figured that was pretty commonplace as a forum mod and dev - in fact I'm sort of surprised that you don't get complaint emails and messages on a daily basis, simply because of your job. I'm not saying you SHOULD, I'm just saying that given your position it is inevitable. It happens, will always happen, and not much can be done about it. Ahh the lives we choose! I think its hard to not take things personally sometimes, especially given any particular sensitive mood. I run into that from time to time too, its only human, but try to keep perspective. You're a good moderator, one of the more level around that we've had, and I wouldn't want that go go south.
When I'm being criticized for something I'm not doing, I feel the need to respond.
The TEAM you are a PART of is being criticized in your opinion unfairly. Either way though I don't think it is the job of a mod to engage in defensive arguments about their activities. If its directed at you personally thats obviously something to be delt with using your forum mod powers and continued in personal messages. In this case though I think the complaints were more generalized and you took them personally because you felt that an attack on your team was an attack on you (I could be wrong, maybe you didn't take it as personally as you seemed to). Either way it just doesn't seem like its that big of a deal to get worked up over. Heck most of the time I feel that the management of PlaneShift is totally inept, and anti innovation, with a desire to crush any attempts at building features or getting team members dedicated purely to the community in any way shape or form. It seems like community involvement is actually discouraged and even crushed on purpose. Maybe that isn't the case, but its how I personally feel most of the time. But me feeling that way is in no way a personal attack on members of the team its just a general complaint see? Sometimes you have to look beyond words to motive and realize that people just say stuff, and its no big deal.
I will take your comment as a request to cool down some.
No, its a request to relax, don't worry, and be happy! :D Belonging to a project like this should be enjoyable and fun. Getting too wrapped up in semantics and taking things like this personally takes the fun out of it, and that should never happen.
Don't let it. Life's too short to be upset about a complaint like this.
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Thanks Induane :) Sometimes we need to hear things we don't want to, too.
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I think perhaps the tone of players has altered a bit for the worse and dev pushback has increased in accordance. I do not see much wrong with many of the wishes expressed here except the idea that we should stop messing with the game. So much has changed for the better in the last months and I see very little reciprocity in terms of praise for what has been altered for the better. It is a strategy of successful critique to acknowledge what is good first. We are people so complainers need to learn to "work it" a little better. Only two instances come to mind when thinking of people getting banned and even then it is not such a big deal. Part of moderating is making subjective descisions about what is acceptable. Karyuu has always defended the devs, i remember arguments i had that karyuu was involved in, the tone was precisely the same iirc. I do think MY tone has changed but Karyuu is was and will be a saint in the forums. :flowers:
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The problem is a small number of juvenile individuals who feel they are owed everything all at once and they think they have the right to become indignant and abusive if not immediately appeased on every point. These people are impossible to reason with and annoying as hell.
That's what the problem is.
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Yeah. When some jerk decides to whine about something everyone already knows about, it annoys people.
Bah, I say let it go :) Sometimes people just need to vent. I agree though it gets annoying sometimes - I just don't feel the need to post back in that case. I just let the thread die.
* zanzibar claps slowly, showing that he's unimpressed with Induane's remark.
I'm not sure how to say this, but wtfduh. Of course something isn't necessarily wrong just because one person disagrees with it. That's why in discourse we back up our opinions with facts. So talk about the facts.
lol sorry I couldn't wow you with my utterly astounding intellect there Zanzibar ;) I was just arguing against a general dismissive nature. Wasn't meant to wow you :D Anyways obviously its a duh, but sometimes even that is easy to overlook given the wrong perspective of a moment. Happens to me all the time at least, and sometimes I have to stop and think about what I'm about to do because I'm looking at something from too much of an emotional angle. Maybe its just me that sometimes forgets this.
Not only is it a good point, but it's been made 237 times already.
Yea yea I got it - we're all tired of talking about that one - it was just an example. Anyways if you're bored talking about it its pretty simple to just not talk about it at all and let newcomers complain about the same things we were 3 years ago. Seems normal to me that it would happen.
I don't think everyone is as boring and uncreative as that. If it was really true that nothing needs talking about, then perhaps the talking should stop and the devs should be left to work in peace.
Some are sure, but still, a new person can't be expected to not bring up something others have - search in the forums only works so well. Besides, its better than resurecting 3 year old threads. :D
Quote from: Induane on April 11, 2007, 10:07:33 AM
Heck most of the time I feel that the management of PlaneShift is totally inept, and anti innovation, with a desire to crush any attempts at building features or getting team members dedicated purely to the community in any way shape or form.
You might want to get that checked out. Anyway, your feelings and opinions don't carry any weight if they aren't backed up by the facts.
You might have missed the point there - sure it was a bit of a poke at the ps team - I always do that ;) I was intending it more though to illustrate a different point. My opinions about PS's dev team are in no way intended as a personal attack at Karyuu or anyone else. They are just an opinion, some of it a gut feeling. It wasn't here to change someones mind, or convince anyone I'm right about it. I just meant that those sorts of generalities shouldn't be taken personally. Nothing more.
I think perhaps the tone of players has altered a bit for the worse and dev pushback has increased in accordance. I do not see much wrong with many of the wishes expressed here except the idea that we should stop messing with the game. So much has changed for the better in the last months and I see very little reciprocity in terms of praise for what has been altered for the better. It is a strategy of successful critique to acknowledge what is good first. We are people so complainers need to learn to "work it" a little better. Only two instances come to mind when thinking of people getting banned and even then it is not such a big deal. Part of moderating is making subjective descisions about what is acceptable. Karyuu has always defended the devs, i remember arguments i had that karyuu was involved in, the tone was precisely the same iirc. I do think MY tone has changed but Karyuu is was and will be a saint in the forums.
Perhaps its just my perception in this case. Somehow though I sensed thought that Karyuu was somewhat hurt by the comments (I'm probably wrong) and just wanted to ease things up a bit.
The problem is a small number of juvenile individuals who feel they are owed everything all at once and they think they have the right to become indignant and abusive if not immediately appeased on every point. These people are impossible to reason with and annoying as hell.
That's what the problem is.
There are always those people. I prefer not to feed the trolls with more arguments though. I see it, I read it, I go on ignoring it.
I say.. let it beeee let it beee!!
/me hums a few more bars and bows out before the tomatoes start flying!
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When your'e at someone else's house for dinner, and you think that their lasagna needs a few improvements, you should be able to tell them, but you should be damn sure that your tone is respectful and that you're being careful with their feelings. Most people will accept constructive criticism, but will stop listening immediately if the first thing they hear is insulting.
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When your'e at someone else's house for dinner, and you think that their lasagna needs a few improvements, you should be able to tell them, but you should be damn sure that your tone is respectful and that you're being careful with their feelings. Most people will accept constructive criticism, but will stop listening immediately if the first thing they hear is insulting.
Right. Need to vent? Make a livejournal.
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If people here wish for moderation on such behavior, it's going to have to be done on both sides - not only will those replying to complaints need to be nice, but those making the complaints will have to do so nicely as well.
Is this what the majority of people here want, or is a mostly-free-for-all-vent more appealing? Myself, I wouldn't find it fair to say "Be respectful when replying, but you don't have to be when complaining."
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Depends how professional your dev and moderation team wants to appear, Karyuu.
I say that from a position of experience overseeing a community far-larger than Planeshift's and also one that's free/open-source. We tended to deal with the criticism by facts first, then deal with emotions afterwards.
You can coach a dev/moderation team to behave with protocol, but it's much harder to get the users to do so... it's just the way things are... almost everywhere.
I agree both side SHOULD show equal respect... but usually, with most communities, the devs/mods/etc are usually having to take the lead and set the example.
I'm NOT trying to refute or rebuke what you say because I do agree... but I've never seen a forum utopia elsewhere so I think expecting one here is unreal... users are users, they can be insensitive asses at times (and I'm sure I've been guilty of it here at least once!!), but showing emotion before dealing with the facts sends a message to others in the community that they should react first and then deal with the facts afterwards.
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Over kill, thats all I have to say about this thread..... over kill.... the complainer posted once, and then got hacked to pieces by the forum-junkies.
This is just a reminder, don't post your feelings and ideas on the forums! :-X
As you can see I don't debate on the forums and I so far have remained on good terms with the forum-ers, don't invade their natural habitat, they are very territorial.
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Over kill, thats all I have to say about this thread..... over kill.... the complainer posted once, and then got hacked to pieces by the forum-junkies.
This is just a reminder, don't post your feelings and ideas on the forums! :-X
This has nothing to do with "territory". Ecuetas's complaints and suggestions were simply bad.