PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Quantus on March 01, 2007, 06:38:12 pm
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Following to http://pswiki.xordan.com/ there should be different languages for
* Xacha
* Ylian
* Nolthrir
* Dermorian
* Stonebreaker
* Hammerwielder
* Lemur
* Kran
* Diaboli
* Enkidukai
* Klyros
* Ynnwn
,but didn't have some of them the same roots? Such as Nolthrir and Dermorian, which are both elves. And since Ynnwn are crossed between Elves and Diaboli, do they gave something in common?
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I played some days with the Tolkin's elven language and found, that it colorizes the RP a lot. Do we want an artifical language, which could be build with tools like from http://www.langmaker.com/db/Main_Page, or do we preferr the common english one?
Another importand question I have: "Is Tolkin to OOC?"
I would really like to hear some opinions.
Diola lle as the Elve says for Thank you
]
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Elvish is a cool language and all, but ps was designed to be unique. Like the stonebreaker language, and enkidukai they arent from another game, story, or movie. Well... At least I don't think so. I do agree that Ynwnn dermorian and nolthir should have a very similar language. Or atleast have ynwnn be a cross of dermorian and diaboli.
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Here are two other threads along the same idea:
In game lanuguages (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=26205.0)
Enkien - This makes sense of it all (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=26335.0)
Hope these help with some of your questions.
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Another point is that in RL, some languages like English are a mixture of many languages that were invaded or have been invaded by. Maybe it depends more on their histories together. Like the Ynwnn, they may be a crossbreed but they do not have a history (so far) of living with the elves or diaboli, so they would not have picked up the language.
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I would really like to see a language group created for each race, there would be many problems in doing so. First off, everyone who used a certain race would have to dedicate time to learn this language. It is not impossible but to think about how hard it is to learn Japanese, Korean, or NeoTibetian syntaxes for the average person could give you a clear ideal. If there were languages I would feel the only solution would be lingua Fracas derived from the obvious Lingua franca being used now, English. If you could get enough people together that would dedicate enough time as well as energy in the game to spread it, then it might work. I suggest to you not using Race but Guild origin as markers for the language. Inside the guilds you and your friends could put forth the energy to create use and store this new Language, Dialect, Pidgin, what ever have you, and possibly spread it. I am always up for new ideals that include brain work so if you feel the itch to really try this please send me a message, and I will help and be more than happy to learn your ideals. Josh
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Well Just to add a though here. I just looked through the sites for Enkidukaien and I must say what a creative undertaking yet such a waste of time. I would like to see people speaking this, and I would like to use it as well! It seems how ever folks are a bit too unwilling to do so. Also, there needs to be a group to creature more vocabulary. I pieced through it for a while and was not even able to write a complete list of Information words. It is some place to start however. So look there if you have the time. One other note. I see that this language is honorific to a point. So why does an Enki take more time to speak to a peasant than a noble or friend. Shouldn't that be the opposite?
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You have a game based on english and players that are not native English speakers, now you are asking them to learn aa whole new language that its only use is here. So not only do they have to comunicate through english to understand the game but in additon a new language or two or five so they can RP. Yeah! I don't think so. How about we just open it up so we can all speak our native tongue(s) and see how far that takes RP,
If you want to add laguages, add them in game with a text scrambler. Meaning, your Character will have to learn that language or get garbled up text when listening to a foreign tongue or trying to speak that foreign tongue. Another skill to train or a mind slot "book" like the crafts.(book of blades, book of Krannese) this way everyone can speak english and the game dedides if you speak/comprehend Kran or not.
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You have a game based on english and players that are not native English speakers, now you are asking them to learn aa whole new language that its only use is here.
No one is asking this of anyone. The languages are a player-initiative for the most part, and you will never need to learn another language to do anything in the game.
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The languages are a player-initiative for the most part,
Key word in there PLAYER not character -initiative. something the PLAYER brings in from the real life world, other words OOC.
If you let things like this slide, eventually you'll end up with clicks that exclude not based on ic circumstances but solely by an OOC means. An elf being excluded from guild cause he doesn't know an outside source elven language. Even though he's an elf and supposedly he should know his own elvish tongue. If you allow this, why not allow a group of Japanese to play inhabitants from the other side of the stalagmite, they can speak Japanese to themselves and exclude all other. Even if all Kran guild/group, they can just exclude by proxy any other Kran that can't understand.
I can show you a few MMO's that have opened up the language barrier and even though the official language is English, the games consist of real life ethnic groups where ic policies matter little and instead of the classic elf vs orc scenario you'll have elves vs elves rescuing orcs cause they are Japanese and we are Koreans. Literally, groups/guilds/clans will be partitioned based on the language spoken with in and with little IC consideration.
Bitterness will come from this. I make an dwarf but are left of of RP from the main dwarven clan cause I supposedly don't know dwarvish or I need constant translations into english and thus ignored. So eventually I find the main guild in PS, made up of the other races that "don't know" their perspective languages. Instead of race vs race or level vs level it will be "small language clicks" vs "small language click" vs everyone else during conflicting/major RPs. So the RP will come from OOC means and I can get that from a PK MMO.(ie NO RP
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I think you're blowing this extremely out of proportion :)
Some of races do have their own separate languages. There is a real Enkidukai tongue that Darkmoon, our Settings Dep leader, was working on for quite a bit. The StoneBreaker language had the most player contributions (thanks to Arka). However, the "horror scenarios" you have so eagerly laid out for us are not bound to happen. One, because our community will realize the sheer idiocy of guilds that restrict players because they haven't "learned a language," and two, because these languages are not going to be used all the time. The GMs make sure of that. If someone is using a non-English language, even if it is for example Enkidukai and thus officially belongs in the setting, for an extended amount of time and it's confusing people, they will ask the participants to switch back to English.
Therefore, you can relax.
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The GMs make sure of that.
I've been on at times when there are no GMs for long periods. Hopefully in the future there will be a whole lot more of you on 24/7 so the general populace won't be made felt to be left out of the loop.
And as "official" as they may be, they are still an OOC source.
The guild language restrictions won't be as bold as to be bars to be measured up to. That will be too easy to correct via staff enforcement. No, the lack of RP because of language barriers will isolate those that know it from those that don't. Eventually the players(not characters) will migrate to guilds that they can enjoy RP'n in. Ones that speak a common toungue.
You'll be more that happily allowed to join a guild but then you realize that most of the RP is in a language you can't comprehend, you will most likely depart on your own. What would a Russian RPer with no english comprehension do when he stumbled on PS. he's savvy enough to download, install, and run with no glitches. Now he's here for the RP and finds only english, does he stick around and hope someone will speak in russian or will he leave frustrated with the language barrier? same thing with these race guilds,
people will join cause they picked the same race, see that they are excluded from RP by the language, and leave it. these language/races guilds will eventually become isolated, Primarily through ooc knowledge that they exclusively speak in a foreign tongue. Eventually there will be those that start to question and form their own language guilds, except these will be based on RL. Like the others, they won't exclude any player from joining but will eventually drive them off by the shear lack of social exchange.(RP and other wise)
These are not "Horror Scenarios" out of fiction, I've seen this happen in other MMOs and if left unchecked, it too will happen here. Not over night but through gradual and long term means. Good luck.
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You're reacting as though people will actually learn these in-character languages to such an extent as to have a whole series of conversations :] I don't see this happening. I see the languages being used for RP writing, to embellish announcements, for here-and-there phrases, and similar small manifestations. These RP languages are not going to take over PlaneShift - trust me, no large group of people is going to extend such an amount of time and effort as to learn a whole new tongue for a single game, on a scale that will make others feel an excluded minority.
Also, guilds based on races are usually discouraged. They do form occasionally, but look at the critiques in the Guild forum - people take a very strong stand with "You need more material," "You need to have good reasons," etc.
There are certain rules in PlaneShift, one of which is English must be the language used in public chat. Even if no GMs are online when someone launches into a non-English prose for hours, if enough reports are made about the same person (or group of people) breaking this rule, the GM team will investigate, and warnings will be given out (if not further actions).
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I see one of us hasn't been to a trekie convention. well make that two of us.
People learn and USE Klingon WRITEN AND SPOKEN, yes exclusively with other nerds of the federation. Elven is a freak'n language that you can learn, if you didn't know. Yes, used exclusively by the pointy eared geeks of Middle Earth.. Just kidding about the name calling, if you are into all that, I commend you for your effort.
It is human nature to form packs based on common traits, our monkey ancestors did it for survival and unfortunately we have inherited it and yet to have evolved out of it.
Some people WILL learn, as they have leartn klingon elven and god knows what else, and those will bond through this commonality. even if they can't form guilds they will still group exclusively cause they can draw a circle around themselves setting them apart from the rest through this invisable language fence. True this will happen no matter what but if encouraged by the rules it will happen like my "horror scenario".
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Let me say something...
An in-game language is just a nice touch in your RP... you can decide if you want to use it or not.
Is not an obligation if you're an Enki, that you must use that language... according the settings, all the races came from outside (except Lemurs and Krans) and seems that everyone has forgotten their roots... Look at the Feline's Lair website... They say that have founded many ancients Enkien manuscripts... of course, this is RP too.
So, it's not that crazy if you roleplay that your character (an Enki) has forgot his ancient language and scripture, and now the new enkien babys talk the Yliakum common tongue...
To make a commparison with RL... look at those immigrant who left their home to stablish in other country, their childs start to talk in the tongue of the country they live, otherwise they will be out of society.
I see that this language is honorific to a point. So why does an Enki take more time to speak to a peasant than a noble or friend. Shouldn't that be the opposite?
If you see, the high ranked Enkis are inside D'sars talking about political issues and have little time to speak to low ranked Enkis. So, they (Enkidukai) have a large set of words that can use with their equals, and more restricted to talk to superiors.
In RL your set of words is very large when you talk to a friend than when you talk to a teacher or boss, for example.
I hope you understand my point...
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Unnamed_Source: Encouraged by what rules? People have been making up their own languages even before any of this work was presented on the forum :) There were player-made languages back in version 0.2 of the game, if not earlier. We can't prevent people from doing this, so would you rather have us publicly frown at such efforts instead? We already have rules in place forbidding non-English in public chat channels. What the players do in private is their own business.
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I think he means encouraged by making the language official setting ;)
If one would do that I think a lot more people will atleast look at it then at this time. Specially the enki guilds will love an offical enkie language to exclude others out without even going to the OOC guildchat ;)
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But even in ooc guild chat, if half the guild starts speaking in chinese, how is the other half going to feel like. Excluded?
Like i stated, if you want to have languages, that's great. It adds to the environment and RP BUT add them through IC means like text scramblers and such. Bringing them through an outside source is asking for trouble.
If enkies want an all enkie club then all enkies should be welcomed not just the one that made up a pig latin. And you will make the others feel excluded if you use that pig latin even in occasional use.
Keep it IC(in the game) is all that I'm asking.
Sorry i missed this.
Let me say something...
An in-game language is just a nice touch in your RP... you can decide if you want to use it or not.
Is not an obligation if you're an Enki, that you must use that language
If you want to use it or not is not what I am questioning, its forcing others to use it when you choose to use it is what I'm driving at. If they can't use it, and you use it enough time around them you will have essentially shunned them. and I guaranty the next time you want to RP with the PLAYER(no matter what character they are using), they will remember and give you the in game equivalent of the "bird". Think how you would feel if your friends suddenly started to use Zulu. Now being that they are fiends and you want to hang out with them, that kind of forces you to learn Zulu. What if you couldn't and they didn't switch back to english. Would you feel hurt, left out, shunned? Would you start not to consider them friends after a while. Now we may not be friends OOC but IC we both play Krans and are in the same guild, yet I speak Kran with all my guild mates and you don't and can't. In real life you as a person would start to get the feeling of being shunned and purposefully left out. That would make any person hurt and angry and thus not only your Kran but every character you have would would migrate to clans that speak english. even if it is totally opposite of what a Kran would do IC you would do it as a player. Because, unless you're a masochist, you don't come here to be hurt or feel bad. And you would do all in your power to avoid ME and my Kran speaking mates. (Now obviously I'm not speaking just about you but in general terms)
Unfortunately when you speak purposefully in another language, when there is a common language already in place, you will start spreading animosity in others. And that will lead to the splintering of the community. In this case a splintering in languages, first in RP languages and later for those in RL. Then it becomes a real lousy place to RP.
Sorry for the wind bag...
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You realize it's impossible to ask players to not make up their own languages for private use, right? :]
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Ofcourse it's not impossible to ask players that
"Please people respect your comrades and don't exclude them by using other languages then english. No matter if they are from RL or self-invented."
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Isn't that already one of our rules/guidelines?
IC dialogues should be used at all times, except when dealing with GMs in direct /tell.
The language is English. You may use other languages in private messages like /tell, or in guild chat. The use of in-game race specific language is acceptable - however, players should avoid using such languages for an extended period of time (e.g. having a character that only speaks "Enkidukai" and never using English is not going to work).
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As impossible as enforcing the english use through tells. Heck, I tell in none english every once in a while.
but the only private use is through tells. i.e. one on one.
Anything else is public. OOC or IC. If more than 2 people can see it its public.
Or am I missing another private form of in game communications?
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I don't think one on one tells would be a problem really. We do have an ignore function asfterall, but indeed everything else is public to the extent that english requests should be honored in my opinion also concidering enkie. Not that I have seen anyone really use it besides saying hello or something small.
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/guild and /group are considered private as well. If you are in a guild or a group, you are there of your own will and probably for a reason you agree with. If you don't like it, you can leave without it impacting your gaming experience. And if you join a guild but then later find that everyone speaks in Chinese, part of the fault is on you for not becoming familiar enough with the guild members and the guild itself to realize that this is a common event.
I don't understand the reason for some arguments here :) Pretty much the only "official" bits of race-specific languages you will come upon will be that from NPCs, and they use it extremely sparingly. As do players:
Not that I have seen anyone really use it besides saying hello or something small.
Precisely. I feel like you guys are brewing up a storm before a single scent of the rains.
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Which is it now?
One, because our community will realize the sheer idiocy of guilds that restrict players because they haven't "learned a language,"
But a chinese speaking guild can be formed and even though it may not ba an official to bar none chinese so as not to conflict with the rules, the chinese guild can conduct all their guild dialog in Chinese and that fine? You know that this will exclude others and make them leave. Essantially having guilds based on languages IC, OOC.
OK. I'll see if I can stir up some of my mates and make the "No Gringos" guild. Obviously you'll know who will be EVENTUALLY "excluded". Thanks
I feel its best to stir up a few light rains now than to the find yourself in the middle of a typhoon later on.
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/me facepalms.
Guilds have to have an IC purpose. You cannot form a guild around an OOC language. You cannot have guilds based on OOC nationalities - so no German guilds, no Russian guilds, no Japanese guilds. However, guild members can speak in the /guildchat using whatever language they want. If this offends someone and they feel left out they can bring it up with their guild members, who I expect them to be on good terms with, and get it sorted out internally.
Don't jump to conclusions - just because a few people can start using Spanish in /guild doesn't mean that it's okay to have a Spanish Guild, where your only purpose is to attract Spanish players. We frown on that mightily. But if someone forms a guild that has an IC purpose and on the side they welcome Spanish players so they can get oriented with the game and get help (translations included), that's perfectly acceptable.
No storming now. I keep losing my umbrellas.
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You cannot have guilds based on OOC nationalities - so no German guilds, no Russian guilds, no Japanese guilds.
Oh no don't worry, there's one Spaniard, a few Mexicans a Chilean and a Colombian. Very multinational.
..., and get it sorted out internally.
No ablo ingles.. done and done.
Don't jump to conclusions - just because a few people can start using Spanish in /guild doesn't mean that it's okay to have a Spanish Guild, where your only purpose is to attract Spanish players.
OH no, we already have the one Spaniard that I know of, mostly we'll be hoping to recruit more from South and Central America. but no Brazilians, we frown on Portuguese.
But if someone forms a guild that has an IC purpose and on the side they welcome Spanish players so they can get oriented with the game and get help (translations included), that's perfectly acceptable.
Ahhhh, Yeah,.. that's the ticket... ummmm .. yes. perfectly legit.... A vigilante guild, motto: Badges?! we no need no stink'n badges!
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::)
Whatever, cupcake. I've explained what I thought needed explaining. If there are any further questions, feel free to post them.
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Wow Someone is on the attack. People can do what ever they want my friends. And there is no way you can stop them. Sp lets not get too angry over something that is of no big agenda.
*edit*
I think you're blowing this extremely out of proportion :)
Some of races do have their own separate languages. There is a real Enkidukai tongue that Darkmoon, our Settings Dep leader, was working on for quite a bit. The StoneBreaker language had the most player contributions (thanks to Arka). However, the "horror scenarios" you have so eagerly laid out for us are not bound to happen. One, because our community will realize the sheer idiocy of guilds that restrict players because they haven't "learned a language," and two, because these languages are not going to be used all the time. The GMs make sure of that. If someone is using a non-English language, even if it is for example Enkidukai and thus officially belongs in the setting, for an extended amount of time and it's confusing people, they will ask the participants to switch back to English.
Therefore, you can relax.
I agree. Lets not get too over taken by an ideal that for years now has not ever taken root!
*edit*
You're reacting as though people will actually learn these in-character languages to such an extent as to have a whole series of conversations :] I don't see this happening. I see the languages being used for RP writing, to embellish announcements, for here-and-there phrases, and similar small manifestations. These RP languages are not going to take over PlaneShift - trust me, no large group of people is going to extend such an amount of time and effort as to learn a whole new tongue for a single game, on a scale that will make others feel an excluded minority.
Also, guilds based on races are usually discouraged. They do form occasionally, but look at the critiques in the Guild forum - people take a very strong stand with "You need more material," "You need to have good reasons," etc.
There are certain rules in PlaneShift, one of which is English must be the language used in public chat. Even if no GMs are online when someone launches into a non-English prose for hours, if enough reports are made about the same person (or group of people) breaking this rule, the GM team will investigate, and warnings will be given out (if not further actions).
Once again it is a great point! Do you know how long it takes to learn a language. It doesn't happen over night I promise. And to be able to learn a language that is not even developed it by far nothing to get angry over. Lets just calm down and take a breath. Thanks!
[ Please avoid making one post right after the other in the same thread. Just "Modify" your first post to add more information. Thanks! --Kary ]
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Aaye Myladies and Sires,
so I will try zhe use of a simple Ynnwn-dialect in public conversation (main chat) and will zee, what is happening.
[The goal is not to make the conversation more complicate zhan nesessary, but to bring some colour and race-spezific characteristics to me and the people around me. Just give it a try and collect some experience]
Yours sincerly, zhe Ynnwn Quantus
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Aaye Myladies and Sires,
so I will try zhe use of a simple Ynnwn-dialect in public conversation (main chat) and will zee, what is happening.
[The goal is not to make the conversation more complicate zhan nesessary, but to bring some colour and race-spezific characteristics to me and the people around me. Just give it a try and collect some experience]
Yours sincerly, zhe Ynnwn Quantus
Ze Good Guyz (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27729.0) iz a guild name written in ze ynnwn dialect :P
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/me raises an eyebrow.
Two words for you, folks: Chat Filter.
Bablefish for PS, if used right.
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Doesn't it say under races on the webpage that "The land of Yliakum is a melting pot of races with different culture and origin, mixed and integrated by living together over the centuries. Racial suspicion and hostility are completely unknown, given that the distances between cities are not great, and trades are a central part of Yliakum society." Now it does say that the racial traditions are quite strong but if the language of each race was used centuries ago and the citizens of Yliakum are in a "melting pot" I believe some common language would emerge so that these races can all communicate for reasons of trade, adventure, and for the sheer fact that the cities are quite close to one another. After all, dialects of a language can develop but overtime there will be commonalities that cannot be ignored as peices of each language are melded together to form an entirely new Yliakum language that everyone can understand. So, who is to say that the language spoken "in game" by the characters is not some language other than english, it is simply translated to english by the client for ease of use by the players. I live in the U.S. and we speak english - If I traveled to Austrailia they speak english - some differences among the terms but I can figure out what they are saying - if I travel to britain they speak a slight variation on it as well but I can again understand what they are saying. Now, why certain groups cannot speak their native tongue to one another I see no issue with, but when speaking to others they must use the "Yliakum language" which so happens to be english that the players use, this is no different than the characters speaking so that one another can understand. Just a thought on this.
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Once again it is a great point! Do you know how long it takes to learn a language. It doesn't happen over night I promise. And to be able to learn a language that is not even developed it by far nothing to get angry over. Lets just calm down and take a breath. Thanks!
That's exactly my opinion! I think it's wonderful to have some official languages for the different races. I takes a long time to invent a whole language, and probably you'll never be able to really speak those languages, because there are simply not enough words. Let's take Tolkien's Elvish as an example: you can translate quite a lot of things, but there still are at least as many things you can't.
On the other hand those languages add another realistic aspect to Yliakum, and besides you can for example use them to create names. Thus you can create meaningful names that not everybody understands at first, and they fit the race of your character.
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and besides you can for example use them to create names. Thus you can create meaningful names that not everybody understands at first, and they fit the race of your character.
Thats an interesting point, we arnt allowed to use phrases to make our character names, now would it be alright if the phrase was in an in game language? e.g 'Sharpclaw' for an enkindukai, in enkindukai tongue of course.
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That would result in something like Hokahetakh (h'oka=claw / hetakh=sword). Remember the guild "H'oka de Ojaveda".
I think using of "real" names or names with sense is cause of copyright violations as main argument. Building names from Enkidukai which are making sense would be ok ...
... until another says the opposite :)
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You *could* make it so races speak the same language (Elves can fully understand, same with Humans) but the languages *can* be learnt, like a language skill.
I'm just throwing ideas out there.