PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Narure on March 03, 2007, 11:12:28 am
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I would like an extra permission added to guild ranks, this being secrecy. Some guilds need spies in their otherwise public guild, or ranks that need secrecy for other reasons. I could also see this being used to keep the lowest rank, in guilds that have an initiation stage, secret so members have to earn the badge and can’t tarnish the name of the guild with ease.
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I'd like to see this as well, certain guild ranks who can be made secret without the entire guild being secret.
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Sounds good to me. I can't see any reason why not...
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Why not just give the spy a normal looking rank?
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This is a great idea IMHO as well. I like the idea of the intiation stage being secret so they can't tarnish the guild easily and need to "earn" the guild badge
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Why not just give the spy a normal looking rank?
Say your an 'evil' guild and want to listen to the goody goodies conversation. Not easy to get that information flowing easily if you have a badge flying over your head. Could work the other way round with 'good' guilds listening to 'evil' guild conversations by pretending to be on their side, which wouldnt be easy with the guild badge.
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I like this feature to make certain ranks secret.
Good thinking!
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Why not just give the spy a normal looking rank?
Because, and I know you'll agree with me here, there are plenty of people around who can't ignore OOC information and like to use it ICly.
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Yup.. an obvious example is the "Swindler" rank in our (Outlaws) guild. They aren't going to con anyone with that label above their head!!!
"But why don't ya just make the guild secret"
Well... some of our members will be brazen about their membership and allegiance, as to them, it'll offer protection through (albeit negative) reputation. - No matter how good or bad an idea that is. (that's not the point of debate here).
And conversely, there will be some ranks who especially need NOT to be identified, and for other guilds... ranks dealing with espionage are a fine example of where this would be useful.
The whole having-your-spies-as-alts-only-unless-you-are-entirely-a-secret-guild... has it's drawbacks.
It would be nice for the sake of flexibility... to have this option... and I can't see any reason why it would cause a problem.
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Have to admit.. I never thought about the idea from the perspective of tarnishing-a-guilds-name either... but it makes sense. :)
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Because, and I know you'll agree with me here, there are plenty of people around who can't ignore OOC information and like to use it ICly.
I've lost count of the times people have responded to our new members (and evidently older members that their character obviously doesn't know!!) badly, COMPLETELY OOC.. purely because of the label.
Which just reinforces the need for an ability to turn it off... especially for newer members, and especially in the case of "evil" or unlawful guilds.
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The whole having-your-spies-as-alts-only-unless-you-are-entirely-a-secret-guild... has it's drawbacks.
One of them being that alt spying has been ridiculed. Even the Cabali laughed at anybody who needed to do it, err, in it's later days.
The IIA has Disciples. They are like any new recruits except, we don't actualy let them into the guild until they have proven their worth.
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I would like to add onto this. It would be nice to be able to hide -just- your own personal lable. If you are in a public guild, but do not want to show your colors, then you could turn the guild lable off on your character alone.
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But if they talk in group kinda hard to listen to the conversation.
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Say your an 'evil' guild and want to listen to the goody goodies conversation. Not easy to get that information flowing easily if you have a badge flying over your head. Could work the other way round with 'good' guilds listening to 'evil' guild conversations by pretending to be on their side, which wouldnt be easy with the guild badge.
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I would like to add onto this. It would be nice to be able to hide -just- your own personal lable. If you are in a public guild, but do not want to show your colors, then you could turn the guild lable off on your character alone.
That's the reason why any guild of the Black Sun Union have the "secrecy" toggled on, as nobody is obbliged to wear the organization symbols(also the guild ID should be in the description, not hovering above a character's head), and also the fact that a guild name hovering above the character's head is pretty OOC.
And also I suggested such thing before, a toggle on/off "See number of members and other members names" permission would really be a great help for many of the secret guilds around, as claiming that IC a character from a certain rank has no knowledge of other members while OOCly anyone can open a member menu and see ALL the other members names.
I would like to expand further this idea by applying the concept of compartmentalization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compartmentalization_%28intelligence%29) on the way knowledge about a guild is known. For example, in a secret society, a member would only know the members of the same degree than him or those who work together with him by using a more wide hierarchy of clearances on the way information is entrusted. Also this would give another motivation for people to work towards being entrusted in such guilds.
For now the only way of circumventing this is by creating organizations instead of "guilds" or by creating off the charts ranks that doesn't exist inside the OOC "guild" when the need "clearance levels" and compartmentalization is required.
PS: What I meant with the expression OOC "guild" is that the word guild doesn't fit well IC for many organizations inside Planeshift, and is mostly an inherited term from others MMORPGs.
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hmmm I like that idea a lot.
The IIA has some public members aswell that don't hide there allegiance while the majority is obviously secret to the public. The idea of making ranks secret or not would definately add something.
Also the idea of having new recruits not show the guildname yet, but do let them in on guildchat and such so they can easier proof their worth is a great addition to how people recruit I think and definately gives guildleaders more to think about on who is worthy of the "badge"
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Because, and I know you'll agree with me here, there are plenty of people around who can't ignore OOC information and like to use it ICly.
Definitely. Add to that that many people can't handle evil stuff that is directed against them very well or at all.
However what does that mean we should be doing? Does it mean that we should make the system support secrecy so that they just don't know (until it's too late, that is, meaning that there will be quite a lot of OOC trouble and OOC whining and so on when they find out), or does that mean that we should consider very well whom to pick in order to play with (meaning that the number of potential RP partners is severely decreased)?
The alt spying has become regarded as something bad and sneaky. However, such secret-rank-spying would be very similar, and lead to the same issues eventually.
I think that you cannot force people to be able to RP well. It doesn't even work with RPing something universally agreeable. How much worse will it be if we start trying to force upon them something that they can't even handle OOC-ly? Especially people with less than average RP experience / ability are unable to separate IC and OOC, which is the reason for this thread. That means they will be unable to distinguish evil RP from being jerks OOC-ly. Worse even, the reverse will also be true.
Playing evil will lead to OOC trouble, be it justified or not. The system cannot help there. The only thing that this would IMO do is to facilitate claiming "That's just how the game works, so shut up". That's a very easy argument to make, as it doesn't require consideration of the particular instance (and therefore is a "quick fix"), but doesn't create welcoming atmosphere.
I'd rather see secret rank spying than alt-spying, though (since it's less OOC), but I still don't think it solves the actual problem of people who just can't deal with it. BTW, secret guilds have not solved this, either.
Regarding the "tarnishing of the guild's name" I can only say that a guild that doesn't manage to screen their recruits decently deserves no better. Also, if such a member creates trouble, the guild leader is the one to talk to. However, this is not possible if one is deprived of the ability to acquire that information.
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@Seytra: I won't refrain from using secrecy or roleplaying evil characters because of that. And there is a HUGE difference between Alt espionage and IC espionage(One requires having an actual guild member, among other personell for it, the other, you can have 3 spies without any hard work). Adding to that, as Yliakum is supposed to be "peaceful", the gross of conflicts probably should happen in the "underground" and not in the middle of a plaza between "l33ts". Also (role)playing dumb is not an easy task in such matters, and also spoils the whole fun from it(It is like knowing the ending of a movie before watching it), and I don't think our roleplays should become severely limited because some people wrongly take virtual things from a fantasy world personally. The problem is another one:
Perfect liars, people that would never raise any suspicion even when facing the most stern and effective psychological/social techniques to identify potential spies inside a guild, and that is where the thing can get nasty as it is another, subtler form of godmodding.
Still, if there was no active espionage encouraged, Intel Ops will be futile and the subtler arts of wa that are more acceptable Settings-wise than large scale warfare would be blocked. I believe many guilds use systems of Classification around here and keep secrets. We shouldn't create an unrealistic scenario just to please some people around that are not roleplayers per se(You are not your character, and the player behind a hated character is not the character, some people insist into forgetting this).
Currently founding guilds is trivial as most people ignore security questions when founding guilds, and to be honest I don't see much challenge currently on keeping a guild safe from harm or from bankrupcy. Having guilds that may be affected and really destroyed as well by other guilds(As long as there is a control to avoid "1337" guilds smashing "noob" guilds) would make "L33ts" think twice before founding a guild. Although these "guilds" vulnerable to becoming bankrupt or destroyed could be changed into a different structure like "political groups" or "economic groups" that would not be "clubs", like @UnderTheMoon suggested while having the normal "guilds" for characters who don't want to compete for power/wealth/fame/etc in PS.
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I don't know. To me RP is not about forcing your RP down everyone else's throat, whether they agree with it or not. To me, RP is a very community-oriented thing, something that relies on mutual respect and trust. At least the respect bit is generally coming short in PS.
You state that you know that often people can't separate IC from OOC too well, and I know that it's worse with bad things being done.
Your insistance on doing it anyway is sad. PS is not a life simulation, it is supposed to be fun for those who enjoy RP. PS even claims to be for those who aren't good RPers. How can you then insist on forcing everyone to do the hardest thing in RP?
Sorry, I can't understand why you are unable or unwilling to cooperate and make agreements. Yes, this may mean that you know the way the RP is likely going to develop in. However, there's still is a great difference between making an agreement and pre-planning the entire outcome.
People around here, especially those "RPing evil" seem to be unwilling to cooperate, even less compromise, and very willing to spoil other's enjoyment, even to the point of their victims leaving, to further their "RP". I'm sorry to say this, but this borders on griefing, and is in no way better than random PKing.
Edit: is it really asking too much to notify and seek permission of the guild leader of the to-be infiltrated guild? Sorry, but if that guild leader doesn't think they're capable of accepting this, then things would be going to clash, anyway, secrecy or not.
Clearly, it'll be close to impossible to ruin some guild or organisation, but OTOH, is that really such a bad thing? Yes, other MMO"RP"Gs have that option, but they also do have a more or less open PvP system also. All in all they're focusing on different things than PS.
And I'm certain that things won't "work out in the end". Things don't even work now, without possibility for serious trouble. Don't think that there won't be people "being evil" for nothing but OOC reasons. It's happened in the past, it will happen in the future.
Edit 2: the more you folks are insisting on being evil at all costs (to others), the more I come to think that PS should, in fact, become an Utopia with only PvE conflicts and no PvP, thieving, etc. whatsoever.
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I am disappointed by such answer.
What is the point? Do you prefer monotony?
Can't people see that it is "evil" In-character?
Do we all have to RP "good" characters and despise realism and immersion to create an ultra-boring environment of 100% peace?
This is Planeshift, not "The Planesims". If you wish to have a 100% peaceful gameplay you're looking for another genre like for example a life simulator, not a MMORPG.
Edit: is it really asking too much to notify and seek permission of the guild leader of the to-be infiltrated guild?
Just as an example from other genre: I never asked for permission from the other player in a multiplayer session of a certain Strategy Game if I would allow or not him to send spies against me or not. It is a question of taking risks. When you found a guild that deals with politcs and with other forms of power, you should be aware that it may be prone to espionage of other groups sooner or later, and that is a fully In-character possibility. If I knew OOCly that someone would infiltrate a spy in my organization, one way or another this would put me in a slight advantage as it is impossible to separate fully OOC knowledge from IC knowledge, and add to that the fact that playing dumb is a really unpleasant experience that spoils most, if not all the fun and quality of an espionage RP(you know there is a spy, you know this fact may harm your guild, what stops you from pushing your character to become more suspicious than usual?).
Also I don't see any difference between this and PMing a whole list of NPC trainers to someone on PS forums, both would be spoilers, one about the game itself, other about a guild's action or secrets.
Clearly, it'll be close to impossible to ruin some guild or organisation, but OTOH, is that really such a bad thing? Yes, other MMO"RP"Gs have that option, but they also do have a more or less open PvP system also. All in all they're focusing on different things than PS.
As I said, "guilds" should be divided into different classifications from what they are now. And I believe that making a guild(soon(tm)) should pose a challenge as well, not just bunching up some characters and "roleplaying" that you always have enough funds to keep a commercial guild running for example. Of course fallen specialized groups like political and economic could "reborn" or try again from scratch, and as I said, there should be space for the guilds that avoid conflict and power altogether. For those looking for influence, power and wealth realistically there should be risks. For those looking for inner peace, it would be another history. I just suggested this as I think some challenges should be faced to make things more interesting. If this will bother people that can't accept defeat, well in a game you can win or you can lose and you could always make a guild not seeking power or wealth to avoid such risks, and when speaking of organizations of economic and political nature, this also applies. And what I am implying is something called competition, that for now only exists for new members, when it does. But it should exist between commercial guilds and such, and those that commit large mistakes could fall into bankrupcy. Of course this does not necessarily means that the system for funding guilds should have a atrociously high difficulty level, but having risks and challenges may keep guilds more active than usual. And about guilds falling down, it would be commonly due to financial problems as well instead of wars. And perhaps it should only be activated when at least someone with autority to deal with finances inside a certan economic or political "guild" is online, avoiding to give an advantage to those who have more time to play PS. To make on the game system(future one) a structure specific for commercial guilds, that never go bankrupt, is a truly immersive idea for RP.
the more you folks are insisting on being evil at all costs (to others), the more I come to think that PS should, in fact, become an Utopia with only PvE conflicts and no PvP, thieving, etc. whatsoever.
As I said before, there are other games for it if you want an Utopia where everything that happens is chatting and social events. It is not a question of "being evil", it is a question of realism and of fun factor. How would a perfect place where nothing ever happens(If there were newspapers they would be blank) be an interesting, realistic and not boring possibility for roleplaying? Also I didn't mention PvP at all. About no thieving, well there is lockpick skills among other sets of roguish skills, and I don't think scrapping down some already existing concepts and throwing away realism is a good idea.
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I think using alts for espionage is OOC and should certainly be frowned upon... but infiltrating using an existing member of your own guild and without informing the target guild... seems to be pretty accurate in terms of realism.