PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Parallo on March 10, 2007, 06:56:12 pm
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Is it just me being an "rp nazi" or do smilies in the main chat not seem totally and utterly wrong? Take this example from a high ranked member of a respected guild(The member's name and the guild's name shall remain annonymus.)
Culprit looks at X "Good to hear :)"
In this case the person has demonstrated a knowledge and yet indifference of the '/me' and its fuctions and clearly would prefer to abstain from using punctuation for anything more than decorative purposes. My question, is that good enough? I find it horrible. It is distracting and displeasing to the eye. '/me smiles' would even suffice. You don't have to be a writer.
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I know one or two characters who did it in every sentence and they've been around a long time. I agree though they should be kept out of main. They don't really annoy me but I see no point in them. If you wish to smile use /me or an emote that's why they exist in the first place.
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I agree they should not be used in the main channel, however in tells or guild channels I see no problem.
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I agree. For me, it's the equivalent of using chat-speak, at least in the RP-sense (God knows I use enough smilies outside of RP :P)
Using ':-)' instead of '/me smiles'
Is like using 'Sup d00dz' instead of 'Hello.'
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Oh I use it in guild and group and all that. That is OOC. You don't say "Oh hi there Emerald colon close bracket." Thats just stupid. And yes it is, to me, exactly like chat-speak.
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Perhaps what is needed is an additional chat filter that takes standard smilies and converts them to the appropriate /me command similar to the way "cya" is converted to "see you later." The reason people use them is convenience and it is unlikely to change.
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That would be too akward because what if they use /me already.
"/me blah blah blah :)" becomes "/me smiles. /me blah blah blah"
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Perhaps what is needed is an additional chat filter that takes standard smilies and converts them to the appropriate /me command similar to the way "cya" is converted to "see you later." The reason people use them is convenience and it is unlikely to change.
If they take 'convenience' over proper RPing they're probably not RPing properly anyway.
Edit: That's actually another issue that annoys me: there should be another descriptor besides /me and /my. Kind of like the /narrate command that NPCs use...
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I could /narrate Emeraldfool is a *!£$&*%!
You wouldn't have a clue who did it.
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it would be good to have a narrate - but have at the end of the text [PlayerName] inserted in parenthisis.
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Personally I think all the typing takes away from the roll-play so let us just eliminate it and the problem is solved. More seriously though, Why should there not be textual short cuts, possibly player editable, for common descriptive elements? Sure you can make a shortcut for /say or /shout or whatever but the number of shortcuts is limited and it would be better to have text variables that could be interpolated in-line. You find it awkward? don't use it.
As for the example it would likely become "bilbous blah blah blah. bilbous smiles."
The less typing I have to do in game the better I like it. Typing is an OOC action and hinders immersion. If I wasn't so lazy, I might try running the game through a speech recognition engine and do away with typing altogether.
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The only way that this bothers me is when I see other members of my guild doing it. Not because I think it is the wrong thing to do, but because of how I feel it would reflect on the guild. I can certainly say that I have done this in error, mainly because I rarely type a sentance in guild/tell/group without tagging a smilie at the end. I often find myself typing them at the end of open chat messages and then deleting them. But I could almost guarantee that the odd one slips through when im typing (probably caused by me facing the opposite direction from my monitor when im typing and then hit ENTER too quickly).
Why make them change into words? just allow a filter option that removes them all together if someone doesnt like them and wants to turn them off. Now I think of it, maybe they should add filter options to remove [all this kinda junk] if a particular player wants to maintain that 'full immersive' experience.
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One word resume my opinion on whether smilies are a blast against immersion or not:
Nitpicking
Really, it never drew me as OOC seeing smilies, as I "filter" them mentally for their meaning.
Of course "Sup d00d?" is another history...
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Aw, you can't filter "Sup d00d" either? :P
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Aw, you can't filter "Sup d00d" either? :P
Why would you want to? It's the ultimate excuse to abuse someone until they cry. Me and Paro have a whole schtick :P
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Don't tell them. They'll want in and then everyone'll know and it won't be funny.
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/me to the rescue.
<replace bad=":)" good="*smiles*" />
<replace bad=":-)" good="*smiles*" />
<replace bad=";)" good="*wink*" />
<replace bad=":(" good="*frowns sadly*" />
That covers the basics, and the only ones that work right. Other emotes tend to get a little squirely for some reason. :D will not filter because of the D in caps. Don't know why. >:) comes out as >*smiles*.
Put that in you chat filter and...filter. Don't forget to turn it on. As of now, the outgoing filter only works if you type /say first.
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Take my first example though. It is inside the quotation marks
Culprit looks at X "Good to hear :)"
That would become
Culprit looks at X "Good to hear smiles"
That's almost worse. I'd almost take smilies in exchange for grammer.
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Would it not became:
Culprit looks at X "Good to hear *smiles*"
which alot of people do at the moment anyway.
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What is inside the quotation marks is what they are saying. If someone said to me, in rl, "Hi asterisk smiles asterisk" I'd think they were a bit loony. Granted a bit less loony than "Hi colon close bracket" but loony none the less.
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So just put the smilie outside the quotes, seems pretty simple.
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People don't do that.
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I'm not a big fan of the asterisks either.
I'd far perfer "/me smiles kindly. "That's good to hear."
To <person> says: ""Good to hear" *smiles*"
For some reason the '*smiles*' bit always makes me think of both player and character as somewhat juvenile. As if they're just talking on MSN with their m8s and aren't a real character. At least that's my impression...
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At least that's my impression...
You need to work on it a little more...I couldnt even figure out who you were doing, maybe Impressions arent your thing :P ;D
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I sometimes use *smiles* after I say something but I never put it inside quotes. It makes perfect sense because you do not always smile in real life before you finish your sentence. Sometimes you start serious but smile in the middle or the end.
Actually, I have personally seen Parallo use -smiles- in the middle or end of a sentence, which is the same thing as *smiles*, except with "-" around it. I was at Jayose library with a test character a while ago, when some Klyros said "Hello" to Parallo in passing and turned away towards the books. His response was "Hello. -smiles- Can I help you?" or something very similar. Actually, I thought that it was kind of lame because when someone says hello to you in real life in a library and goes about their business, it doesn't mean they want any help from you, especially when you are not a librarian. Klyros' responses was "No, thanks."
Anyway, this wasn't an attack, especially when Parallo didn't really do anything horribly wrong and was probably trying to be nice. It's just an observation.
*smiles*
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I have used smilies in guild chat before, but only when nothing serious is going on. When stuff gets more serious I really tend to avoid them. I only use them because sometimes people can take jokes as something offensive, it's easier to add ":P" instead of (that was a joke!) sometimes.
By the way, it's funny to see Diaboli say "omg!" because it gets filtered to "By the gods!". Diaboli are atheist by nature.
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If I smile in the middle of a sentence I always try to use a /me at the sart so it would have been something ablong the lines of /me turns. "Hello." He smiles. "Can I help you?" I wouldn't use a hyphen in that way.
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I have used smilies in guild chat before, but only when nothing serious is going on. When stuff gets more serious I really tend to avoid them. I only use them because sometimes people can take jokes as something offensive, it's easier to add ":P" instead of (that was a joke!) sometimes.
Lol, I just got a sudden mental picture:
Assassin says: Actually, the ale you just drank contained a very potent snake venom. You will be dead in five minutes.
Victim says: What!? >:-( You cannot hope to get away with this! I am an official of one of the greatest guilds in Ylaikum! >:-P
Assassin says: You nor your guild will get in the way of the Revolution.
Victim says: Revolution? :-? What revolution? /:-| I know nothing of this. My death will be of no aid to your cause. :-P
*shudder*
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I've seen stuff like that. That's why I made this thread.
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*action* is a perfectly useable and correct midstatement change of expresstion or pause in action. I use it all the time.
/say I was only trying to help, *pauses and looks and the floor sadly* but it did not turn out well.
I don't see the differance or point of /me "I was only trying to help, *pauses and looks and the floor sadly* but it did not turn out well."
or /say I was only trying to help...
/ me pauses and looks and the floor sadly.
/say ...but it did not turn out well.
That would be most correct, but very combersome, and easily interupted.
As dedicated RP guru, I declare *action* as correct syntax in an MMORPG for midstatement actions. Emotes are not, but there is no way to stop folks from using them, so best to just filter them, or ignore it.
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Psch, just because you're the 'RP guru' doesn't mean I hafta agree with you :P
/me says "I was only trying to offer my aid-" he pauses and looks at the floor sadly "- but I'm afraid it did not turn out too well..."
Would take the same amount of effort but would look so much better, at least in my opinion.
I'm sure that doesn't go for everyone - I was mentally conditioned from forum-based RPing (where it's done in past-tense, and *'s are discouraged. There's also a lot more detail and thought put into it because since it goes post-by-post you have as much time as you want to write it well).
It'll be hard to change the mental relations I have between *s and noobs :P
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/me says "I was only trying to offer my aid-" he pauses and looks at the floor sadly "- but I'm afraid it did not turn out too well..."
Would take the same amount of effort but would look so much better, at least in my opinion.
I totally agree. As much as I like you UTM, and agree with you in most cases, it doesn't mean you can just decree that you are right and infallible.
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I would like to change what I said before. It really irritates me if people are constantly using LOL and :P in open chat. Im stood at harnquist while an arguement is going on and it is most irriating.
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I'm nearly positive this wasn't happening when I arrived. Has roleplaying in PS slipped that much.
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Maybe it wasn't RPing?
anyway, on topic.
With the options filter incoming messages and outgoing messages it is almost sure that noone ca loose there. Those who can benefit from converted smilies will do it and those who won't, just set the options as they wish.
If someone want to see it in game i propose to prepare the edited file and bug a dev about it. Since it's easy i suppose, but time taking.
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I'm nearly positive this wasn't happening when I arrived. Has roleplaying in PS slipped that much.
I think you must be right. I dont remember it ever being as bad as I just experienced.
Maybe it wasn't RPing?
Thats kind of the point, if its in open chat and not in [] then it should be RP.
anyway, on topic.
With the options filter incoming messages and outgoing messages it is almost sure that noone ca loose there. Those who can benefit from converted smilies will do it and those who won't, just set the options as they wish.
If someone want to see it in game i propose to prepare the edited file and bug a dev about it. Since it's easy i suppose, but time taking.
That would affect all channels, I like to see and be able to do such things in guild chat and other channels. I just dont want to see it in main chat.
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Also, no matter what filter you use, you can't turn LOLers into proper RPers. :P It's not magic...
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I don't think they are against rping. I use it to signify my character smiling after a statement or something.
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/me wonders 'what is wrong with the alternative'
/me sighs
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shorty13: By the same argument you could use "lol" to signify that your character is laughing out loud ;)
You're not going to see smileys in a novel, and I think the same "rules" should apply to roleplay text in the game. Text is what your character speaks. You can't pronounce ":)"
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colon close bracket?
:P
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colon close bracket?
:P
"Closed triangular bracket, strange-split-line-colon-thingy, dash, slash-extending-from-bottom-left-to-top-right"
>¦-/
:D
I don't think they are against rping. I use it to signify my character smiling after a statement or something.
Like Idoru said, would it be so hard to use
'/me smiles after making the statement'.
Or
'/say <statement>'
'/me smiles'
Or even
'/me states "<Statement>" and then smiles.'
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Whoops. sorry folks, I should have added /humor to my declaration.
The main point is that you can not fight the rain. You can just shield yourself from it.
Oh, and I think you would pronounce ' :) ' with no voice, and a sideway snap of your neck. Like "se-crick!"
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Whoops. sorry folks, I should have added /humor to my declaration.
I got that you were being humourous. Thus the :P face: I was mirroring your tongue-in-cheek expression.
Parallo didn't get it 'cause he's an eejit, but everybody expects that :P
The main point is that you can not fight the rain. You can just shield yourself from it.
Maybe not, but we can sure as heck whine about it :P
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The main point is that you can not fight the rain. You can just shield yourself from it.
Maybe not, but we can sure as heck whine about it :P
And thus the PS forums were born :P
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It might be nice if there were some punctuation mark you could use to separate /commands in-line and have them run sequentially or do they do that already?
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Unfortunately, there are some possibilities of failure, like in the example below:
<replace bad=":D" good="*makes a big smile*" />/me types in game
/me explains:Distribution of wealth is done in a pretty different manner inside the Union/me sees:
Annera explains*makes a big smiles*istrubution of wealth is done in a pretty different manner
inside the Union
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In my early days...I said wussup bro and it turned out how fare thee bro...kinda lame. Put more filters in, and anyway I rarely talk alot in PS, except for to many /tells in which I ignore them all.
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I can see why using smilies can be considered OOC. I have no problem myself except when conversation degrades to just ":D, >:(, :-/ and lol". Seeing it every now and then is not a big deal. I don't use them myself when talking IC but if someone else does I don't make such a big deal out of it.
And since the term "RP Nazi" was used, I gotta say I find it equally annoying when players start "teaching" other players how to RP. Especially when they do it in the main window. I find that much more disruptive because it often escalates into an unnecessary discussion about whys and why nots when it could be easily avoided by using tells. It is OK to point out some things that can help others with their RP but we all RP differently so we should show respect in how we deliver those pieces of advice (and ponder if it is really worth it while we're at it). It's like saying "don't speak when you got food in your mouth" or "don't put your elbows on the table". You can't say it like that to just about anyone without sounding like an uptight jerk to those who don't know you are not (or those who know you are for that matter).
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And since the term "RP Nazi" was used, I gotta say I find it equally annoying when players start "teaching" other players how to RP. Especially when they do it in the main window. I find that much more disruptive because it often escalates into an unnecessary discussion about whys and why nots when it could be easily avoided by using tells. It is OK to point out some things that can help others with their RP but we all RP differently so we should show respect in how we deliver those pieces of advice (and ponder if it is really worth it while we're at it). It's like saying "don't speak when you got food in your mouth" or "don't put your elbows on the table". You can't say it like that to just about anyone without sounding like an uptight jerk to those who don't know you are not (or those who know you are for that matter).
That's a good point.
I remember one time I was in an RP with about 5 people (just a casual tavern discussion) when one guy corrected another guy's use of a word, which became a 5-minute OOC argument complete with quotes from Dictionary websites and wikipaedia. While me and the other two just tried to talk over it, and ignore the fact that 2 participants in the conversation had suddenly gone brain-dead (i.e. refused to speak IC and were thusly just sitting there staring into space).
'Twas quite annoying...
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Exactly that kind of arguement happened in the confrontation I witnessed which changed my opinion on the use of smilies and LOLs. For a good amount of time the discussion was largely OOC in main. I admittedly did comment a few times (I only remember specifically something to parallo) but it was quite silly for it all just to break down into a chat about semantics and terminology. (I wasnt involved in the actual confrontation, just a nosey bystander)
I suppose im against that happening around other people aswell as smilies and LOLs.
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This is the lamest discussion I've seen on the forums in a long time. Emoticons are a textual substitute for lack of facial expression on the characters. Other substitutes exist, such as *smile* or /me smiles, but they are all the same fricken thing. Get over yourselves.
The last thing PS needs is a bunch more "rules" from RP Nazis governing what can be said in what channel. Just relax. If you find it annoying, take solace in the fact that I find YOU annoying, so it all evens out. :-) :-) :-)
- Venge
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This is the lamest discussion I've seen on the forums in a long time. Emoticons are a textual substitute for lack of facial expression on the characters. Other substitutes exist, such as *smile* or /me smiles, but they are all the same fricken thing. Get over yourselves.
The last thing PS needs is a bunch more "rules" from RP Nazis governing what can be said in what channel. Just relax. If you find it annoying, take solace in the fact that I find YOU annoying, so it all evens out. :-) :-) :-)
- Venge
Uh-huh, but since when was the last time you RPed? Why should your opinion be the one that matters most when it doesn't even concern you at all...?
(Sorry if that sounds aggressive, I'm too lazy to word it better :P)
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I don't think you have to worry about being the one sounding offencive, Emerald.
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I am sure if one was to post and ultimate smileys and leetspeak filter xml it would be used. Part of the joy here is you can fix this yourselves. :sorcerer:
I don't like the smilies either. It is not something worth making a rule over IMO however.
Roleplayers could use to gain some sway with the other types of players by hosting some player events.
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I am not an RPer, of course, so it offends me to see a self-appointed group of RPers sitting around thinking up rules for the non-RPers about what annoys them. You do your thing, and the non-RPers will do their thing--no rules required in either direction.
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I tried to make some filter, as I said, and it has problems with some things. :D or and :[CAPS] does not seem to filter. I am using the ones I made now, including: :) :( and others, and it works fine.
Now, I really don't see why any rules should be made on this, as you can not enforce them anyways.
Now, go back to complaining about stuff the Devs can do something about. That is if they feel like it. *grins*
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It wasn't a 'make-a-rule-about-this', it was a 'whats-your-opinion-on-this.' Hence not being on this board and being on general discussion.
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Get over yourselves.
Just relax. If you find it annoying, take solace in the fact that I find YOU annoying, so it all evens out. :-) :-) :-)
- Venge
It appears the only person who needs to follow this advice is yourself.
You do your thing, and the non-RPers will do their thing--no rules required in either direction.
I think you will find that rules are required. Or can I go name a character Uber-l33t? If its only going to irritate RPers and get in the way of their RP why does it matter?
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Although smilies are annoying (to me anyway) I can think of things said that make me cringe a whole lot more than a smilie.
For instance: lol
m8
The list could be endless.
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There is already a mechanism proscribing a name like Uber-l33t in the character creation process and the argument has little to do with smilies in the chat interface. One can normally assume that a general statement as
You do your thing, and the non-RPers will do their thing--no rules required in either direction
in a thread are in the context of the thread. Perhaps what the RPee-ers should do is pretend smilies are strange magical glyphs with unobservable effects. Or pretend you are Amazonian chieftains seeing nothing but sea out there where the ships are.
Perhaps we should forbid any marriages without a valid license, those things are generally cheesy, frequently abuse the rules about painting the landscape with items just for show and take away from people interacting with the npc's in the vicinity. Further we should outlaw any RP in which the participants step out of character to castigate bystanders for not respecting the integrity of the RP. I'm not actually suggesting these measures, I'm just saying these things go both ways and few people are blameless.
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It seems to me that the logical conclusion of "Perhaps what the RPee-ers should do is pretend smilies are strange magical glyphs with unobservable effects" is non-sensical. Maybe people should see typing and just respond "I can't hear you" because it isn't audible? If "lol" and "m8" are also annoying, should we outlaw all abbreviations and contractions? Typing is a required compromise because of the limitations of technology and abbreviations are a way to minimize the intrusion, afaic.
To whoever said that I was the one who needed to relax here, keep in mind that I got both of these responses to my post: "I think you will find that rules are required" and "I really don't see why any rules should be made on this". Most of the thread is discussing rules or filters. I have no problem with filters.
Regarding the filters, probably the filter is converting the typed text to all lowercase before attempting to find a match, so ":D" will *never* be found in your file, but ":d" will probably work. If a helpful soul could try it and post the results here, others might find it useful.
Thanks.
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Take a chill pill, everyone. I bet what bothers people with ":)" is that they are afraid that that will turn this game into a "Im gonna pwn your ass noob", like said, at some point our limitations in technology reach the best Roleplay we can give the game.
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Vengeance, yes, :d works as a filter for both :D and :d. I would not have thought of that. :P :D xD :O and others can be added now as well.