PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: shorty13 on March 18, 2007, 02:43:35 pm
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This game is seeming to lose it's RP nature, and it saddens me. I was RP fighting someone yesterday when others came to join and help. "OOH call me when we are going to PVP duel" said a friend who had maxed all of her stats. This, I thought, was disgusting, as if you were truly playing this game and RPing, there would be a thousand things wrong with it, apparent from leaving a friend to fight a battle on his own. I have only fought 2 people using RP fights lately [Duraza and a random Kran trying to steal from me] and all three of us realize that this is going down the drain. It seems all of a sudden playing tag to see who can time their swing so it hits first is all of a sudden more RP like than "slashing at my enemies torso with my right battleaxe from right to left". When did this happen? I think I missed the memo. News flash: its not true!
To PVP duel you need:
1) to have leveled your stats so that you can kill someone in one hit [At this high, your attacks will very rarely get blocked because for some reason players can attack strong but don't know how to block, making it a game of tag your dead]
2) A fast computer. If your computer is faster than your opponents you have a 90% chance of winning. Such a RP-like reason
To RP fight you need:
1) a brain [oh no!]
2) an imagination [hey you can actually cast magic!]
I think anyone who would turn down an RP fight and refuse to do it unless its a PVP fight is a powerleveler who has maxed there stats and knows they can beat about everyone so they don't want a slight chance of losing. So that person who has been a warrior for 3 weeks can all of a sudden be better than that person who just came from a land where he had to battle his way out and escape to yliakum.
I think the only viable places to PVP style fight over RP fight is fighting monsters and in guild wars.
I vow to always try to RP fight in place of dueling whenever possible. Anyone else with me?
[im starting to like zanzibar's idea of taking out the dueling. /rant over]
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The game mechanics of dualing just need to be sorted out is all. But for now I'm RP dualing mostly because the system is pretty screwed at the moment but at the same time i wont say no to a PvP dual.
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I agree! i just had my first RP fight defending duraza for certain reasons, and i had tons of fun! i find that just running around until you perform or recieve a one hit wonder is jsut boring. three cheers for RP FIGHTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :woot:
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IMO, it's really a question of getting the game mechanics to integrate better with RP. How we do that in this case evades me, and I'll agree that for now, RP dueling is far more realistic and fun. I'd also like to take this chance to link you to this thread, (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=19339.0) which is brilliant.
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I totally agree with Shorty13. A few days ago I was RPing around the Plaza and got into an argument IC. One person overheard one sentence of it and came over demanding a fight, they probably didn't even know what I was arguing over and it was on the Plaza were supposedly there would be guards. After telling them I would only enter into an RP fight I was laughed at and they walked away and I may add it totally ruined the RP.
I have nothing against PvP, in-fact I quite enjoy it but people need to learn not to challenge too quick when they either have no reason or it's in a place that IC they should never get away with.
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Role-playing something that has been implemented, however poorly, is kind of silly. Role playing fighting is only barely acceptable to me because the system is somewhat unbalanced. If you don't like it just don't fight.
Would you sell me a real weapon for imaginary tria? I don't think so but I could easily claim that I had just spent five days mining gold and sold out to Harnquist for 200k tria which I would give you. True you could give me an imaginary weapon but what would be the point of the whole exchange.
At some point you just have to say "this is what we have and so we have to use it for now," otherwise there is no point in further development.
Don't mistake my meaning, if that is the sort of thing you want to do I won't lift a finger to stop you. Just don't get mad at me if you try to role-play a fight with me and I do not cooperate. As it stands now a duel cannot proceed without a challenge and an acceptance, and I do not accept challenges. If you try to role-play an unaccepted fight with me I will just ignore it.
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I'm all for RP fighting, especially how they're described in that post by Rilar.
Dueling is for me still just that, dueling. A face-off between two individuals which leads to death in 99% of the cases. Dueling cannot be used for barfights, assassinations, wars, etc. You can't just knock your opponent to the ground or knock them out. You also can't attack your opponent by surprise since they always get a duel request. It is just an extremely limited and still unbalanced feature, which is reason enough for me to rarely use it.
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I'm skeptical of anything Masoj says in reference to dueling since his idea of a "guild war" was for his entire guild to meet me in the middle of a field and to fight me all at once and if I died a single time then I'd have to "admit being defeated". He turned his guild's secrecy setting on to hide that he had over 8 members online and he only wanted to fight me because of Solone's 100% OOC hatred of me.
If you want to encourage roleplaying, start with your own guild and punish the people who harass others OOCly.
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RP fights, if done right, can do have something PvP doesn't but it cannot replace duels 100% of the times. Duels, when lead to by RP, are a great element to have.
A problem with RP fights is that they can only be as good as the players' RP skills, and I cringe when two godmodders startA RP-fight. It usually ends up with an actual [ooc] fight. That can be avoided though, just like PvP can be done within the frames of roleplay.
@Zanzibar: I can't quite tell if your comment adds anything to this particular discussion. It would seem you're using Masoj's thread to disguise a personal rant focused on him. I am sure you're familiar with this forum rule:
Threads that single out a player for ridicule or to accuse someone of actions in-game will be removed without notice.
It is just my impression though.
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I'm just saying that certain people ruin the game.
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Only if you let them, Zanz.
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Only if you let them, Zanz.
I'm not so sure.
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Ive often wondered about RP fights. Dont they tend to dissolve into arguements about whether someone hit or not, or how much the person was hurt by that claymore sticking out of their chest? Then again it is not something I have experienced myself as I dont like fighting at the best of times.
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Rp fighting is really not to my taste at all.
I agree with bilbous I would not stop it from happening. From what i have seen it is almost always likely to end just as it did when we were 8 years old doing this with army men or barbies (insert whatever toys you used regardless of gender) "I shot you . . ." "no, you did not I have armor on" Substituting RP battles for Deuling is useful for those who agree to the rp battle if they cannot stand the dueling system is acceptable, but certainly not my ideal. I hope we can make some improvements on battle system. In the mean time realize that rp battling in the common area would be just as OOC as PVP dueling at harnquists. Arrange your RP battles for somewhere quiet where you will not be disturbed by "PLers." According to what you said above the person came into challenging you through RP, i see no problem with that.
In DnD you rp battle to an extent, but you have stats and dice and such to stop absurd bragodocious feats from being possible, their game balance has had 30 years or so to work itself out. Be patient and we may well have some improvements. If you legitimately enjoy RP fighting (again i cannot understand why you would), then just take care to do so in a place that is more in character. If people are bugging you move. I recall some good rp battles between Zakk and farren Kutter IMO this was only possible because the same player controlled bot combatants and could script the outcome to suit his story needs. It worked as a piece of writing more than an in game interaction and justified some elements of Farren's characters.
One thing i know for certain, the quality of Role-playing in planeshift is in no way linked to the success or failure of Rp fighting. I never needed to rp battle and was lauded as a "good rper" I hosted player events and i dueled people in the tournaments. I slew noobs who challenged me as well. The duel/combat needs work, but if it was removed and replaced with:
/me takes sword and swings wide, the light of the azure sun blinding you as the strike heads for your throat
other combatant: "I close my eyes and focus on the training sinto gave me and parry though blinded"
I think I would cry.
Good luck on your rp fighting, try to do it in a place you will not be disturbed or use one of the other chat tabs for it.
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Of course in tabletop gaming you could usually bribe the GM with another Guinness or some such thing to get favorable rulings. Also engaging in a fine bout of Rules Lawyering has been know to work as well.
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Zan has it right. RP duels are good for allowing things that the engine simply doesn't support yet, such as non-lethal combat. Honestly, my ideal dueling system for PS would be a sort of hybred between the current system and an RP duel, a text version of the D&D system with attempts at attacks, attempts at dodges or blocks, and success rolls to see if the hit lands. It would be completely turn based.
Xillix, for most of the RP duels i've witnessed or taken part in, the duelers have followed your instructions. The typical RP dueler (though by no means all of them) is very aware of the IC consequences of their actions, and such a duel, as one IRL, is not likely to happen in a public place.
I certainly don't mean to condemn the dueling system entirely. If it's fun for you, use it. And it is important to have features continuously getting tested, so i admit that engine-duelers are doing more as testers then are RP-duelers. However at present time, RP-dueling simply allows more possibilities, and is more fun, for me anyway.
EDIT: I forgot to mention, only RP-duel with someone you trust. We use the honor system to determine hits. The attacker tries to hit and the victim gets to decide whether or not they get hit. A good RP'er will allow themselves to get hit fairly often. It's no fun when every time someone says "I easily dodge the attack." Role-playing isn't about winning, so a good RP'er shouldn't care if their character wins or loses the duel. Not wanting to lose your character is understandable, but we don't kill without permission in RP duels (and rarely at that.) But yeah, don't RP-duel people who you don't know and trust to understand this and you'll be fine.
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Personally, I think it's OOC to ignore the mechanics of the game unless you have a good reason to. Saying that normal duels are inherently OOC is bogus.
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Duels Are inherently OOC they depend mainly on a players grasp of the controls, which isn't supposed to be existent. Also, an RP fight has no limits except for your imagination, which is how these RPGs got started (major tabletop DND player here) the freedom to do what you want in a combat scenario allows more challenge, more options, and ultimatley, more fun.
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Roleplay dueling, is in fact more complicated. He has plate armor, will my longsword stab through? Leather armor wont withstand one arrow will it? In fact any player can decline the attack. It has to be worked out. Currently Using BOTH Roleplay and Player versus player action is exhilarating. Only my problem with the challenge sequence is that how am I supposed to assasinate people? Impossible. They can hold the challenge and run around with /target next player and find me. Equip their armor and swords and then it wont be much of a hunt will it? No. It has to do with the players reasoning, if he has the common sense to agree or disagree to make the roleplay better.
]If you want to player own PvP duels, heres a tip: Get a whip fast PC, Max levels. BING. Have fun. Unfortunately many people do not have both of these.]
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Duels Are inherently OOC they depend mainly on a players grasp of the controls, which isn't supposed to be existent. Also, an RP fight has no limits except for your imagination, which is how these RPGs got started (major tabletop DND player here) the freedom to do what you want in a combat scenario allows more challenge, more options, and ultimatley, more fun.
True. However, you can agree before the duel starts to just stand in one place.
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Duels Are inherently OOC they depend mainly on a players grasp of the controls, which isn't supposed to be existent. Also, an RP fight has no limits except for your imagination, which is how these RPGs got started (major tabletop DND player here) the freedom to do what you want in a combat scenario allows more challenge, more options, and ultimatley, more fun.
And RP duels to an extent rely on player acting-abilities/imagination/communication-through-narration/etc rather than be solely determined by the character in-game. Practically everything in-game is influenced by the OOC capabilities of the player to do something. -- If it wasn't the game wouldn't have controls beyond initial character creation (for example.. even with the best roleplayers.. a character's misinterpretation is almost always down to the player's misinterpretation.).
Jumping across rooftops, ascending ladders, fighting an ulbernaut, jumping across gaps of any kind... all depend on a players grasp of the controls and in many cases their reactions too... this doesn't mean they're all "inherently OOC". The way people act (or don't even RP anything prior to challenging) leading up to a PVP confrontation is, IMO... what can make the duel OOC.
As for agreeing to stand-still, if I was weak dermorian fighting a burly kran, I think I'd be more 'spritely', even trying to use cover of scenery, buildings, etc. to lose the Kran and then sneak up on the Kran from behind.
I agree that the whole running-backwards-and-forwards thing in PVP can be OOC (which I'm sure is what you're referring to Zanzibar?) and seems more like jousting... but in some cases moving around isn't OOC either, I could especially understand a weaker but more nimble character trying to out-maneuver a stronger opponent... rather than just stand there and accept their fate!
Of course, two mighty warriors, both weighed down with heavy armor... I could imagine just standing there slogging it out.
As for RP fights... they're okay when it's one-on-one, or something involving just a few people... but there are times when it's not as feasible as PVP and dependent on who is involved, it can be as futile and irritating as I know PVP is to others.
If there's a load of people involved... it can end up devolving into a rapidly scrolling chat window with people missing each others actions.
Also, if two people are too stubborn to concede to anything, you can end up with them performing stunning defensive maneuvers over and over again in a long drawn-out, and eventually tiresome RP fight... simply because they each consider their own character to be legendary. - Fortunately I don't think this is too common because the RP fights I've seen have generally been pre-determined to some degree... but you occasionally get someone who RPs themself as near-invincible for whatever reason, totally out-numbered and out-'gunned'... they act like a nuclear bomb would merely tickle them.
Of course, you could always use /roll to determine whether each action is successful or not when this happens... but that doesn't take account of your character's strength and training... unless you exchange info about your chars stats, armor, etc.
Then, like with pvp... you get irritating noobs.. who end up godmodding. --- So, as with pvp, it's worth only engaging with people that you know are going to be somewhat realistic and fair about things!!!
If it's done that way and with not too many people.. then I agree it is fun for some people... but it suffers the same potential problems that spoil pvp... in that idiocy and noobishness can spoil it too.
Really, there's a PVP system there that handles all the stats, etc. for me and is the framework in-game that represents combat... it's quick and easy to use and depends on the character-skills, training, weapons and armor. - it's also just been balanced out considerably giving everyone a better chance to win. - I'm happy to agree rules of engagement and let the system decide the rest.
To me, something that depends on your armor, weapons, skills & training, etc. is more IC than something relying on your ability to narrate your actions... it's just not performed as verbosely. But when I say it's more IC... I obviously don't mean it's as "role-playish", It just has more dependencies on the character in-game if you were to remove OOC influence.
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Duels Are inherently OOC they depend mainly on a players grasp of the controls, which isn't supposed to be existent. Also, an RP fight has no limits except for your imagination, which is how these RPGs got started (major tabletop DND player here) the freedom to do what you want in a combat scenario allows more challenge, more options, and ultimatley, more fun.
True. However, you can agree before the duel starts to just stand in one place.
Which gets back to the problem of how many players, if holding a private conversation, would rather whisper in group, but refuse to invite someone who is listening in into their group, instead claiming that they spotted them. I'm a fan of lowering your voice, but not a fan of "I see you through this wall/closed door/pillar" types. (Roughly translated: Gets back to the issue that many players would rather act OOCly or do the impossible/nearly impossible and then have an excuse for it, such as faster reflexes from training or the like, then die or be inconvenienced)
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@drah: moving during a duel = bypassing game mechanics = exploit
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If both sides are happy with moving while fighting... nothing is getting exploited.
If the game mechanics intended strictly for us to stay in one spot... you'd think we'd be kinda locked in place or something...
If the game is intended to be like that... they could make it so you can only challenge when standing right next to someone, then make it so they can't move until they accept or refuse. If they accept, you both automatically face each other, start fighting and can't move until you yield or the other person yields/dies... but I'm sure that'd lead to more complaints than anything else.
There's a whole bunch of reasons why people wouldn't just stand there... and it's got nothing to do with exploiting game-mechanics. (Running off to seek a vantage point so you can lead your enemy into a trap, fleeing to cover in the hope you can sneak up on your enemy, making distance so you can used a ranged attack instead, etc.)
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I don\'t see any problem with that atm as everyone can do it. In the future you won\'t be able to do this most likely.
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I think that was a response to hit-and-run style fighting and not necessarily a blanket statement about moving while dueling.
Still, how's this...
1. You must stand right next to the person you want to challenge before you can challenge.
2. When they are challenged, they are locked in position until they accept or refuse.
3. If they accept, you both automatically face each other, cannot move at all, and start to fight.
4. You can only move again when one side has died or yielded.
Is that the sort of thing you'd want?
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Is that the sort of thing you'd want?
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=23232.0
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Zan has it right. RP duels are good for allowing things that the engine simply doesn't support yet, such as non-lethal combat. Honestly, my ideal dueling system for PS would be a sort of hybred between the current system and an RP duel, a text version of the D&D system with attempts at attacks, attempts at dodges or blocks, and success rolls to see if the hit lands. It would be completely turn based.
I hate to toot my own horn ... http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27911.0 (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27911.0) That idea had not yet been finished, all but started, yet it was easily ignored. I had hoped that more contributions would have been made. But apparently people don't care enough past the bitching point. Even if you don't agree with it at all, atleast make a suggestion and your point of view will contribute towards the effort. Arguing the same arguemnt new post every new post. the same argument, the same words, is not going to get us any closer to a good alternative solution. I have given my thought on the subject, now its your turn to add yours. http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27911.0 (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27911.0)
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^^ Actually, that's not a bad idea... I'd agree with you on full defensive when moving... except, that if you are charging an opponent... it would effectively be the opposite of full defensive... Anyway, we're heading in the direction of discussing PVPs pitfalls and/or merits, which is heading off-topic... so I'm gonna quit cackling on about it here and save it for the next PVP thread.
;)
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Get back to RP fighting, not moving while dueling, please.
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Duels Are inherently OOC they depend mainly on a players grasp of the controls, which isn't supposed to be existent. Also, an RP fight has no limits except for your imagination, which is how these RPGs got started (major tabletop DND player here) the freedom to do what you want in a combat scenario allows more challenge, more options, and ultimatley, more fun.
Here is the counterpart. An enslaver contacts one of my Fenki friends, states that he'll enslave her or she'll get raped [ i'm not joking - we have the logs to prove it ]. We chased the enslaver, caught him, challenged him (auto-declined) he logged off. Logs on the next day and states he escaped. Is that RP as far as you are concerned? Tell me - what mechanism does the game provide to prevent that? What grasp is required by such a player to play that way? Is that "more fun" in your book?
Eila
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Here is the counterpart. An enslaver contacts one of my Fenki friends, states that he'll enslave her or she'll get raped [ i'm not joking - we have the logs to prove it ]. We chased the enslaver, caught him, challenged him (auto-declined) he logged off. Logs on the next day and states he escaped. Is that RP as far as you are concerned? Tell me - what mechanism does the game provide to prevent that? What grasp is required by such a player to play that way? Is that "more fun" in your book?
Logs don't prove anything as they can be editted. If anyone tries any sick RP like that again throw a /report straight in.
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Gharan is right, in a case like this /report is your best option. I realize you and your friends did not necessarily mean to "RP" with this guy, but this is why I try not to get involved in any serious RP with people I don't know to a certain extent. I would have just disregarded this whole scenario. A drink at the tavern and light conversation is about as much as you can trust a stranger to be able to RP. If you get a good impression there, you can go further. But when someone is godmodding or mixing OOC and IC events, or is RP'ing in a way that to you seems less than good, it's generally best just to disregard it before it goes to far.
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Duels Are inherently OOC they depend mainly on a players grasp of the controls, which isn't supposed to be existent. Also, an RP fight has no limits except for your imagination, which is how these RPGs got started (major tabletop DND player here) the freedom to do what you want in a combat scenario allows more challenge, more options, and ultimatley, more fun.
Here is the counterpart. An enslaver contacts one of my Fenki friends, states that he'll enslave her or she'll get raped [ i'm not joking - we have the logs to prove it ]. We chased the enslaver, caught him, challenged him (auto-declined) he logged off. Logs on the next day and states he escaped. Is that RP as far as you are concerned? Tell me - what mechanism does the game provide to prevent that? What grasp is required by such a player to play that way? Is that "more fun" in your book?
Eila
Type "/report [player name]" and the server will log all the text that player has recieved or sent in a certain period of time and for a certain period of time.
@Rayken: I don't get this "trust" thing you and Seytra are so worried about. Why do you have to trust people OOCly in order to play the game with them? If someone does something stupid, then sure ignore them, but what's the harm in RPing with new people?
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I agree Zanzibar, you could lose all the opportunities to meet many interesting characters if you dont interact because you lack trust in them. And the best way to find out if they are sick (as described in the example above) is to interact, as the saying goes, Tester 1st, Player 2nd. Just in this case it applies to the players, not only the game.
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Don't get me wrong, I'm all about including new people and encouraging them to RP, and/or RP'ing with them if they just do it naturally. I would certainly share a drink and conversation with an unknown character. I've been in a couple of instances though, where things get bad fast, and you have trouble pulling away. When you finally do, you kind of have to disregard however much time you went along with it, and that just sucks.
Again, I'm definitely not saying exclude new people...just be cautious when engaging in anything other than light RP. I hate having to say "OK, that last hour doesn't count, these things never happened..."
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Aww you never have to do that, just realize your character daydreams a lot or suffers from delirium occasionally, could be a result of the tiny bugs you cannot see or an adverse reaction to a hidden glyph.
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Not sure if Im helping, which is ussualy the problem. I will wait until the system is figured out. Log on, like it or not, wait some more. I always wanted to be known as "That guy has been here for 3 years, dont mess with him." ^^