PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Xillix Queen of Fools on April 05, 2007, 09:28:32 pm
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Comments:
Posted by: Gherph
Date: 5:58 PM 03-28-2007
NPC Lori
It's great when a NPC asks you "Do you have other questions for me? and you reply "Np or Yes" and she things your speaking in a different language :)
Posted by: AryHann
Date: 12:39 AM 03-29-2007
Xillix, could you please investigate?
Posted by: Gherph
Date: 8:54 PM 03-29-2007
Bit of a correction on my part.. it was late when I wrote this bug... my apologies.
"It's great when a NPC asks you "Do you have other questions for me? and you reply "No or Yes" and she thinks your speaking in a different language :)"
Posted by: Xillix
Date: 7:33 AM 04-02-2007
This report is utterly useless, be specific Gherph or do not trouble the bug tracker with such static.
Posted by: Nilrem
Date: 9:31 AM 04-02-2007
Do you have other questions for me?
if you reply "yes" or "no"
then Lori doesn't understand you.
That is: doesn't have any answer, and says things like "Could you say it differently?"
At least that's what I understand the reporter, Gherph, is saying.
Posted by: Xillix
Date: 9:49 AM 04-02-2007
what i mean is that this could be in many many different contexts for lori. Anyhow it is fixed be specific in your reports and help me to find the problems.
Posted by: Nilrem
Date: 9:53 AM 04-02-2007
When reporters aren't specific enough in their contributions, it's desireable that those asking for more information lead with the example. :)
Posted by: AryHann
Date: 10:57 PM 04-02-2007
It is also true that many reporters are scared by the "evil ghost of the spoilers", thing that we developers have not yet got confirmation from Talad.
If that is the case, I think it is more important to be verbose and helpful toward the developer than about some rule :-)
On the other hand, we should also be softer with the reporters who try anyway to do their best with their knowledge to help us.
And, polemic and irony are not welcome, so please, both sides stop. Thanks.
Posted by: Lanarel
Date: 8:11 AM 04-03-2007
I guess the vague part of this report is that it is a more general 'problem', that is not easy to solve. To give you an example, I once had quite an inversation with an NPC that annoyed me, by answering his question "Can you word that differently" with the answer "No", which made him say "Can you speak more clearly", etc :)
I do not suggest that Xillix starts to solve that case by case :)
Posted by: Gherph
Date: 11:04 AM 04-03-2007
Maybe I should do your F* job for you Xillix? I am sick of your shit man, read the bug and fix it and stop your bitching.
Thanks Nilrem for posting that, but what i posted justifies that anything you say to Lori - she doesn't understand, Xillix seems to be new.
Posted by: Nilrem
Date: 11:43 AM 04-03-2007
Gherph, I'm not here to defend anyone in particular, I try to say what I see, how I see it.
Your last post is clearly out of place. Calm down.
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I do not intend to be cursed at or carry on extensive conversations through the bug tracker however I feel this requires a response. I do what I do as a hobby. It is not my job and I am not required as part of my hobby to fix any of bugs in a timeline set by the players. I do not think at any point I did or said anything innappropriate in the least. Nor did I ask for anything that was too much to ask. As for the great spoiler issue that is not mine to work out.
I do not intend to be cursed out in the pursuit of my hobby. What I do is very difficult and very time consuming. The only reward one would expect is the appreciation of the players and the respect of my peers on the dev team. Random attacks of this nature subtract about half of my "Pay." I do not remember griefing anyone or giving anyone a hard time. Many of the problems players face do not rest in the control of the settings team.
If you are too specific in the bug tracker someone may well whine about it, but it will not be me, I will just be better enabled to fix the issue.
Nilrem I do not need interjections in the defense of myself or any player reporting through the bug tracker. We have had a good relationship for sometime so send me a pm on forums if you believe I have gotten "heavy handed." Please if anyone intends to respond do it via irc or the forums.
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Way to go, Gherph ;) You've made a brilliant start in PlaneShift. However, something tells me that if you keep up such brilliance, your exit will be even more marvelous to behold.
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why do people do this, violance never gets anywere in these situations..
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Welcome to the shit list, Gherph.
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If you watch it closely, you can easily see the pattern of the messages, and where it specifically started its slow decay towards a flame.
I guess the vague part of this report is that it is a more general 'problem', that is not easy to solve.
That was the point where it should have stopped. Simply, it is a generic problem that clearly is not from a specific NPC, but from the NPC system as a whole, there is nothing wrong on the way it was reported as it was pretty clear to me.
If the NPC asks "Do you have other questions for me?" you would expect a reply from saying "Yes" or "no" besides "I am too stupid to understand that"(it means the same thing, just with different words). The quick fix is to simply remove that line of conversation until NPCs get a little more smarter to properly reply to it.
Welcome to the shit list, Gherph.
I would not judge a person from a single line of written word. Who knows if he was just really in a bad mood when he wrote that?
Now, this trend is not much different from the "Edit Wars" in the infamous Wikipedia, but I simply think that a better reply should be done besides "This report is utterly useless". This answer was more than enough lighter oil to set the flame. It is not much different from getting a written report and tearing it into pieces in front of the one who did it.
And it wasn't useless at all, if you see it. Although it is more of a limitation than of a bug. And a pretty annoying one.
And if that is the default reaction when testers report bugs... I'm glad I'm just here for fun!
Way to go, Gherph ;) You've made a brilliant start in PlaneShift. However, something tells me that if you keep up such brilliance, your exit will be even more marvelous to behold.
Now I'm really glad I'm not a dev or tester. There is something called motivation, and such comments put it down the drain for the people who read them.
Sarcasm isn't a good way to solve conflicts. I would refrain from making pre-emptive judgements
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There is something called motivation, and such comments put it down the drain for the people who read them.
I don't understand how you can say that in defense of Gherph - his behavior is unjustifiable. Such comments due to a "bad mood" can get you a temp ban on the forums, and I don't see why anyone would have to deal with this on the BugTracker. There are dozens of useless reports coming in along with the good - sometimes we lack the ability to reply to every single one with a smile and a bucket of limitless patience. And I think that's fine. Considering how much work Xillix puts into PlaneShift daily, he is allowed a sharp comment every now and then.
No one is allowed to treat developers like that, however. There are no excuses.
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Way to go, Gherph ;) You've made a brilliant start in PlaneShift. However, something tells me that if you keep up such brilliance, your exit will be even more marvelous to behold.
Now I'm really glad I'm not a dev or tester. There is something called motivation, and such comments put it down the drain for the people who read them.
Sarcasm isn't a good way to solve conflicts. I would refrain from making pre-emptive judgements
Are you serious?
Really?
You remind me of Ann Coulter sometimes, Raleigh.
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[Post removed for bickering.]
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I'm not only disappointed by your attitude, I am mildly disgusted :)
Xillix's sharp comment differs quite a lot from Gherph's behavior. Can you not see that with saying "This report is utterly useless," and saying "I'm sick of your shit, stop bitching" to a developer?
No wonder why it goes slow. "I work hard so I can make sharp comments sometimes. For anyone else who does it, even a single time, Temp BAN!". Honestly, this is one of the worst examples of community relationship I ever saw.
I am not interested in discussing your erroneous opinions to greater length, but you need to step back right now and reread what you are writing, and what you are replying to.
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Obviously if this was p2p things would work differently. We work for fun, not money. We don't provide a service. Some of us, myself included, are solely working for their own enjoyment and experience, not because they want to provide a great game for players (that's Talad's goal I believe ;)). Of course that's some and not all, but you get the idea.
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[Post removed for bickering. Btw, if you feel the need to suggest that a thread be locked, there is probably some bickering going on somewhere. ;-) ]
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@Karyuu: When you said "He's a dev so he can make some harsh comments now and then", that is what I interpreted from it, no need to push it beyond that.
But that's not what I said, LR. I said "Considering how much work Xillix puts into PlaneShift daily [...]" - Xillix isn't allowed sharp comments because he's a dev, but because he spends more time and effort on this game than I have ever seen anyone do, possibly next to Talad himself. He bends backwards to get things done and is always thinking of the players first. The way he was talked to is incredibly rude.
Us devs can try being super nice 100% of the time, but guess what? After waves and waves of comments such as Gherph's, after countless personal attacks, after hundreds of useless criticisms, we wear down. Don't hold onto a false concept of devs as unbreaking pillars - we're hardworking people, but still people, and with very human feelings. So if sometimes we get tired and our words are sharper than what you'd like to see, don't give us grief. We don't deserve it.
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Raleigh...
Just be quiet.
You're what I like to call a disturber of the feces. All you really do is complain.
Wrong, I do more things than complaining, and I don't think the previous posts here of mine are useless. Besides that, this comment about my person is pretty offensive.
Surprise, surprise...You don't think your own posts are useless? Wow... I was expecting something else!
And yes, it was meant to be :)
I don't really understand your way of thinking. "The Devs let me play this so I should be able to whine and complain as much as I want"...I don't see how this works.
No, I think "The Devs do that because they like to do it, but just because we are testers, and not customers as in $ MMO(RP?)Gs, that does not mean we deserve less respect than the one given to those other games customers" on such matter. And if you want to generalize things claiming I just whine, I could generalize things as well about you. But I don't think it's useful and productive.
I can't see why you are so worried about the testers respect. This isn't a $MMORPG, this is a hobby. The respect the testers get is the respect they deserve, it's not influenced by the Devs paycheque nor are the testers handled by trained personel. Added to which, if the testers acted like they do here in a commercial setting, they would be fired.
You're saying that the testers should be respected as if this is a commercial $MMORPG. Then the testers should also return the favour. You are asking the Devs to act as if this were commercial while allowing the testers to act how they please. Why should the Devs be limited while the testers allowed to run amock?
Testers = Superior beings?
They react well to constructive critics. But if somebody starts using curse words, I don't see why they should care about what they say.
Then here is my suggestion(that was already among the lines), treat testers better and don't say "This is utterly useless" but instead instruct them what you need to make it useful. And another good one: keep and solve those things in private so people outside won't get bothered by it. We can't post about GM issues, couldn't this rule be extended to this thread as well?
Xillix was insulted by this man, I see no reason why he shouldn't be punished and made an example of. It's not the way to act. And no, you can't post about GM issues, but you can complain about GM's through certain means, many people have done this. Again, the second the Devs do this to anybody who isn't another Dev and people just on the "Treat testers better" wagon. How is this fair?
Testers = Superior beings?
Added to which, your suggestion is everywhere. Instruct them, they are called sticky threads, I'm not surprised you missed them. They leave the instructions, the testers ignore them, why should they treat them better?
Anyways, I'm done paying you attention. I hope the sensible people of the community follow suit. You've yet to contribute anything besides negativity, ignorance and a complete lack of ability
to keep ones mouth shut.
I try to improve Roleplay in-game when I can, more generalizations.
I do hope you leave. I'm sure many of us do.
@Nurahk, you got this too personal... I won't reply to this obvious flame anyway, except to mention that your assumption is wrong.
As great as roleplay is, the three things I mentioned far outweighs anything you have done.
And I didn't take it personaly. I'm just tired of people expecting so much from the Devs while laying almost no expectations on the players.
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[Post removed for bickering.]
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lordraleigh, first, I'm not trying to take personal shots at you in this post, but these are just my observations I have made while doing my duties as a forum mod and reading over basically everything that gets posted on these boards.
Generalizing now, whenever I read something you write, it takes the form of one or both of two subjects: Politics, and how the Devs aren't treating the players right. I know that isn't what you go on about in every post you make, but it seems the majority of the time, your posts can be grouped into one or both of those categories.
Quite frankly, there are many people who are sick of hearing what seems to be the same message from you over and over again. So you have to understand that many people wish you would just be silent.
I play this game to get away from real world politics. Communist, capitalist, fascism, whatever it is, leave it out of the game world. The settings say the land of PS is ruled a certain way. And that's good enough for me. No need to poke and prod at every little tiny detail. Is it so hard to just accept the government structure the settings dictate there is and just go with that? If you don't like it, then rather than poke and prod, and pester at every stones throw of the way, annoying people to all ends, perhaps it's time you found a different game to play. If you don't want to do that, and don't want to accept what the settings dictate, then please don't be surprised when people snap at you.
About the devs thing. The majority of people here that aren't devs are treated with respect and their input is valued. If that weren't the case, this whole forum wouldn't even exist. They could have simply said, we'll make a game our way, and not care about what anyone else thinks. But instead this fourm exists and player input is given on these boards and it is read and taken into consideration.
It's quite simple really, if the player gives the devs the proper respect they deserve, then I have never seen any dev not give this respect back to them. It's only those select few that come in here and start mouthing off like they own the game or something, that are treated as little spoiled children.
It's simply a fact of, you be nice to me, I'll be nice to you. Why does the player have to be nice first? Simple. The devs have already initiated the "be nice" concept thing by allowing anyone to play their game. If they wanted to, they could say, "fine, we won't share this with you" and take the game away. But no, they offer the game to everyone to try out and enjoy. So when a few people come back and start acting like the devs owe them something, I can completely understand the devs getting a little peeved at their ungratefulness.
Right now, the majority of your posts is just that, you seem ungrateful to what was freely given to you in your posts, and as such, you aren't going to be treated as well as others. Now, I don't know if this is what you truly mean when you make posts, but again, this seems to be your general tone, and becuase of that, you aren't exactly in anyone's favor right now.
I believe I tried to explain this concept to Datruth while they were still around in regards to his general tone of his posts as well. He, unfortunately, didn't want to listen, and well, he is no longer welcome on these boards becuase of his actions. I do hope you will think about what I have said.
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[Post removed for bickering. If you have >1 quote in your post (let alone 10), you're probably bickering.]
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*sighs*
I believe the first thing I said was I wasn't trying to make person attacks, no?
No matter, if you want to take it that way, I guess you're free to do so. All I was trying to do was open your eyes a bit and try to get you to realise what type of attitude many other forum members have towards you and why.
But, whatever. May your life be merry.
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Soon we'll at least be able to delete/edit messages like those. And kick. And ban. And revert all access.
Fun stuff.
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Oy i missed all of that . . .
The unseen thing going on here is evident when Gherph says "I am sick of your sh*t man . . ."
The preceeding week he had been treating me as a customer service agent through irc, many queries daily etc. I was frustrated with him already. When you post to bug tracker try to be specific enough to provide context. Each npc has hundreds of things that they say when someone is too vague it makes it very hard to pinpoint the error and fix it.
The thing that made me post this here was that I simply did not want to be treated like that again in the future. I wanted other players to see the kinds of difficulties we face in the pursuit of making planeshift great.
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"I am shit of your sh*t man . . ."
Might want to edit that. I think the issue here is mearly respect. People don't seem to understand that its not their game but the Devs so if they want to play it, guess who you have to suck up to.
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You don't have to suck up to anyone, you just need to be civil.
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artistic licence.
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Why is it that when a post is normally removed that the whole tread is cleaned up to remove replies to the post that was removed but in this thread all the replies to LR's posts remain?
I have no doubt that he/she is being a pain in the ass and bickering, but I dont see the point of leaving the responses and see even less point in adding the remarks into the removed posts.
I am certain that everyone can agree that Gherph over-stepped the mark (IMO he was a complete and total **** [imagine twit with some different letters ;)]). Why does this post even exist in the 1st place, it seems entirely pointless. I personally dont use the bugtracker because ive looked at it previously and am not sure how to search for things appropriately. But those who do try should be given a little help in the right direction because, aswell as the Devs, they are not paid to do bug checking, they are not proffessionals, they do it because they think they can help (or maybe because they are irritated in this case.)
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The thread has lived out it's use. No real point in cleaning it up, just leave it be. I doubt anybody has anything more to add to it.
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Just a quick question. Isn't posting logs and stuff like this against forum policy, or is it only for ingame logs? Or maybe it changed all together.
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Since that log on the BT can be viewed by anyone freely and openly, I think anyways, it's already in the public. This is opposed to a private chat log stored on your hard drive, that only a few select individuals can see.
So the first can be allowed since it's already freely viewable by the public, while the second, all parties involved must give consent before it can be posted.
Make sense?
In either case, Devs kinda can do whatever they want to a certain extent.
And while I'm answering off topic questions, Veng, a forum admin, cleaned up the thread as he felt fit. Myself, as a forum mod, who "works for" the admins, do not feel the need to go against their doings, since well, it's their forum, and I just help run it.
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Ah, cleared it up a good bit. Thanks mate.
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Ok I'll bite
In either case, Devs kinda can do whatever they want to a certain extent.
This is one of the things LR was talking about, and I agree with him on this point. This kind of mentality can only breed resentment and hostility. True or not it isn’t something that needs to be boasted about and rubbed in people’s faces.
The bug tracker is kinda messed up; the search tool is nowhere near what it should be. I have gone threw the BT a few times looking for bugs I have found, but I have never posted, because of the 'mood' of the responses in there.
I have great respect and admiration for the Dev team, and understand they are hear for no monetary gain; but their position in no way entitles any of them to treat others with disrespect or abrasiveness. I also do understand that people can have a bad day and snap because of being pushed to far, but please do keep in mind you do represent PS, and your actions reflect on the entire project.
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Xillix was the one who was mistreated, not Gherph. Xillix was civil at all times. If you do not see the difference in his actions and Gherph's, then I'm sure it is only a matter of time until the devs have a problem with you as well, unfortunately.
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Vengeance, Where in my post did i say otherwise regarding Xillix? Neko made a statment and I responded to it, if you dont see that, then I guess it will only be a matter of time before you decide to have a problem with me as well.
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It's not that you said anything about about Xillix, indeed, it was the opposite. You disreguarded the fact that Xillix was insulted.
You, like Raleigh, ignored what the players did wrong and instead decided to focus on the Devs.
Added to which, you attempted to bring back a discussion which will ultimately lead nowhere.
I have great respect and admiration for the Dev team, and understand they are hear for no monetary gain; but their position in no way entitles any of them to treat others with disrespect or abrasiveness.
Nobody says it entitles them to treat others with disrespect or abrasiveness. The point is, you and Raleigh seem to think that it gives others the right to treat them with disrespect and abrasiveness while not restricting the Devs right to react.
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Simply because a person makes an observation on one point, it does not indicate they believe the exact opposite, please do not put words in my mouth. Again I state, I was responding to a statment made, and my comment was not directed to the original post.
Of course the idiot was wrong, and he is not the first, nor will he be the last. He does not however represent anyone else but himself.
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no need to get into it with eachother now, laragorn is goodly nurank is goodly everyone is happy \\o//
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Simply because a person makes an observation on one point, it does not indicate they believe the exact opposite, please do not put words in my mouth. Again I state, I was responding to a statment made, and my comment was not directed to the original post.
Of course the idiot was wrong, and he is not the first, nor will he be the last. He does not however represent anyone else but himself.
Whereas if a Dev makes a statement he or she represents PlaneShift ;)
In either case, Devs kinda can do whatever they want to a certain extent.
And, this statement, though perhaps poorly phrased, is just saying that the Devs should be no more limited than the Players. Infact, if anything, the players should be more limited than the Devs, it's the Devs who give us this game.
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To summarize what I'm saying, the Devs put up with a lot of disrespect and abrasiveness from the Players but, when the Devs react to something a Player said people (Most notably LordRaleigh) will jump on it and point out how disrespectful it is while completely disregarding the disrespect shown to the Devs.
When it comes down to it, the Devs exhibit a lot more respect per person than the Players do, yet, it's the Devs that get "jumped on" so to say.
I'll leave it at that.
Everybody is happy :P