PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Protos on June 01, 2007, 12:34:26 pm
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Is it holy? Is it sacred?
I'd like an official answer, if possible.
Thanks.
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To its followers it would be.
Holy is just a point of view.
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Is it an official stance or an opinion?
If it's official, is it then fair to say that to non-followers, it or anything related to it would not be holy or sacred?
Thanks.
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You're right. Respecting religions is another thing though.
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Anything that is seen in a religious manner can be called holy, according to the dictionary. The Black Flame is obviously a religion since it can be chosen in your character's religious preferences ... so this makes it automatically holy for the people that worship the Black Flame.
Not sure what you imply by holy though, it's always a good thing to be more specific when asking questions.
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Assuming for a moment that these answers are an official stance (until someone from the team confirms/denies), same thing applies to Laanx and Talad.
If holy is a point of view and requires to be a follower (or non-follower) of a particular god, can that point of view be genetically hard-coded into a whole race, and can it then still be called a point of view?
Thanks.
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Well I wouldn't be too fussed about not using tweezers to read the Qur'an
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Well I wouldn't be too fussed about not using tweezers to read the Qur'an
I'm opening a new variant on such thread:
Now that you make such reference, if possibly misinterpretations of the book you cited with second intentions convince people to wrap a bomb around their bodies and blow something in/beonging to US/Israel, what impeaches Book-of-Names thumpers of becoming fanatic war mongrels and wreak havoc in the name of Laanx or something similar in the case of the Black Flame?
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Assuming for a moment that these answers are an official stance (until someone from the team confirms/denies), same thing applies to Laanx and Talad.
If holy is a point of view and requires to be a follower (or non-follower) of a particular god, can that point of view be genetically hard-coded into a whole race, and can it then still be called a point of view?
Stop fo a while and think on what the heck you are writing about.
Are you going to start asking devs of a random game if sky is blue, or if by saying hello you are welcoming someone?
None of what has been said can be official! And if official, who are the oficials? Are you going to ask them if Buddha is holy ? If they say yes, then it is obviously holy also for me, like anyone else xD. I'm not even buddist...
Ultimately I have no idea whats your point if you can't agree with me. :D
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Well I wouldn't be too fussed about not using tweezers to read the Qur'an
I'm opening a new variant on such thread:
Now that you make such reference, if possibly misinterpretations of the book you cited with second intentions convince people to wrap a bomb around their bodies and blow something in/beonging to US/Israel, what impeaches Book-of-Names thumpers of becoming fanatic war mongrels and wreak havoc in the name of Laanx or something similar in the case of the Black Flame?
Look at the Vespers of Laanx guild. They did something to that effect.
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Yes, the black flame is sacred. But I doubt you'll see much in a holy symbol, as very few are supposed to know of it's worship. Unless xillix decides to change things of course :B
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But I doubt you'll see much in a holy symbol, as very few are supposed to know of it's worship. Unless xillix decides to change things of course :B
There already is. Has been for months.
That's what I love about players sometimes. If we don't come straight out and tell them about changes, people will continue to tell newbies that things don't exist. "To the best of my knowledge" is a good qualifier for such things. :)
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Bwahaha .. our ploy for getting more official information on the settings is finally working! :P
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Honestly I'd rather you guys got a smattering of information than perpetuated myths.
I think the question of "Is the Black Flame holy?" is a valid one, inasmuch as Diaboli are vulnerable to "holy" or "blessed" weapons, and whether a weapon "blessed" by the Black Flame would affect them the same way needs to be known. Settings doesn't have an answer for you about that yet, but I'll try and get it discussed. Until then, please don't degrade this thread into a debate on religion in general. Thanks! :)
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Since holy is a point of view and has not been denied as an official stance by Jeraphon, how can a whole race become vulnerable to anything holy, sacred and blessed, if they don't recognize it as such in the first place because they don't follow either of the three gods?
Why does a whole race not have a choice to follow any of the three gods, considering that holy is a point of view, and hence a choice? And if it is a choice, why isn't more than a single race punished for making a similar choice?
Thanks.
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That is a good one ;D
Often, for the sake of simplicity, people aren't really precise. They won't say blessed by Talad or Laanx weapons are more dangerous to diaboli than any other. It's obvious for all people in Yliakum thet things by Talad or Laanx are holy. But for example if weapon is blessed by Vodul, maybe it isn't dangerous? Or holy refers to all true gods, not made up, or falsly believed?
You will never really know who.
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For the diaboli, I think that the definition of Richard Dawkins about what is religion becomes literal, because for them, religion is a virus, and their reaction to holy things is only one of the symptoms of their unique disease. So I suppose that for some weird reason, their bodies do not react well to people blessing stuff, regardless of being on the name of real or false gods. Or perhaps all known religions have some tradition of using some kind of substance to bless an object that is toxical for the diaboli, making people have the false assumption that is the fact of something being "blessed" or "holy" that makes them vulnerable, who knows if the gasses from incense aren't deadly for them, for example?
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I have debated this issue of 'holy' before. It can not be anything the gods create, or Diaboli would not be able to touch glyphs. So, it must be something created in such a manner to impart special powers on such an object. Perhaps 'holy' objects would have to have part of a god's very essence (or soul) imparted into them in a non-magical way, making holy or blessed objects not magical, but godly. As such, these objects could only be made under very special conditions, such as a god giving part of its power, or in a rite that steals part of that god's power. A third way could be to bring an object to a place that is already imbued with a god's power and absorb some of it.
Another way an object could be holy is if it is imparted with power from the people themselves in much the same way as the example above. A 'holy' man could place part of his own being in the object, dedicating it to a god. However, this -could- mean an object could be holy without being blessed or dedicated to any real god. Take Boon for example. He thinks there is a god of carrots, so learns the rights of how to make his hoe 'holy' by imparting part of his being into it. He does so, and now has a holy farming tool with the ability to harm the Diaboli.
Or, 'holy' might mean something all together different, and be a seventh way that people only assume comes from the gods.
Religion itself is -not- holy, or no Diabloi could belong to any religion.
Holy would then have to one of those. Power of the gods, power of the people, or a power appart from both, but assumed to come from the gods.
So... Is the Black Flame holy? If it is a god, then perhaps, depending on if a god's essence is what is harmful to Diaboli. If it is not an actual god, but a piece of Laanx's being, then perhaps it is holy, being a sentient object. If it is a creation of the people without anything to do with the gods (creation by belief), then it may be holy that way. In the end, it depends on what path the devs choose.
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For the diaboli, I think that the definition of Richard Dawkins about what is religion becomes literal, because for them, religion is a virus, and their reaction to holy things is only one of the symptoms of their unique disease. So I suppose that for some weird reason, their bodies do not react well to people blessing stuff, regardless of being on the name of real or false gods. Or perhaps all known religions have some tradition of using some kind of substance to bless an object that is toxical for the diaboli, making people have the false assumption that is the fact of something being "blessed" or "holy" that makes them vulnerable, who knows if the gasses from incense aren't deadly for them, for example?
No, that's way too far-fetched. Diaboli are very vulnerable to holy weapons, simply because the power of the gods, Talad or Laanx, flows through it. The reaction of the Diaboli against this deistic power is stronger than with other races. It would be nonsense to say that an item is holy "because it's holy to you" and then be able to slay every Diaboli with it.
Aside from that, Diaboli feel uncomfortable in religious places, but they don't die when they get near them. Diaboli can in fact visit temples.
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I have to wonder why they would be susceptible to any 'Holy" effect of the PS realm. While I haven't reviewed all the information about them currently available, it would seem to me that their condition came with them from where ever they came from and would have to do with items consecrated to whichever gods ruled there. Thus they would only be affected here by things brought or summoned from the other realm from which they originated. It might leave them with a significant phobia about "holy" things of the PS realms but no real vulnerability. Likewise, I would think the race that is vulnerable to precious metals would be so due to some isotope peculiar to their origin and not necessarily that of Yliakum. I doubt this viewpoint will prevail but it could be taken into consideration.
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Since holy is a point of view and has not been denied as an official stance by Jeraphon, how can a whole race become vulnerable to anything holy, sacred and blessed, if they don't recognize it as such in the first place because they don't follow either of the three gods?
The point that a particular person does not recognise/believe in a particular god does not means that the particular god doest not exist.
As in the dark ages almost everyone did not believe that the earth is a sphere. If the god in question does exist then any item holy, blessed etc of that god will be imbued with the power the god. If the relic is that of a false god (in an absolute sense) that the item will have only its inherent power.
As to the whole race being vulnerable to blessed item, it would be simply that the race is the children of a god, children created from the same matrerial hence sharing similar gentic material. It should not be difficult for another god to create a weapon or item designed to target these children.
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Since holy is a point of view and has not been denied as an official stance by Jeraphon, how can a whole race become vulnerable to anything holy, sacred and blessed, if they don't recognize it as such in the first place because they don't follow either of the three gods?
The point that a particular person does not recognise/believe in a particular god does not means that the particular god doest not exist.
As in the dark ages almost everyone did not believe that the earth is a sphere. If the god in question does exist then any item holy, blessed etc of that god will be imbued with the power the god. If the relic is that of a false god (in an absolute sense) that the item will have only its inherent power.
As to the whole race being vulnerable to blessed item, it would be simply that the race is the children of a god, children created from the same matrerial hence sharing similar gentic material. It should not be difficult for another god to create a weapon or item designed to target these children.
Why would a god want to wipe out an entire race? From the available information, I don't think the gods of Yiakum are "nazis"(not sure about Laanx though), so there must be another explanation that does not involve godly-sanctioned genocide.
Although the idea of the substance used in the rituals to make items "holy" being toxic to diaboli and remaining on the holy item sounds far-fetched, I think it can be an interesting possibility and quite surprising as well if it was truth, because probably most would think instead that it's because the gods dislike the diaboli or because the diaboli dislike gods so much that it provokes an adverse reaction or something. It is something like what the idea @Parallo suggested on another thread:
People often attribute the disease known as SMID syndrome to Laanx's wrath but I disagree. It stands for Sudden Madness and Instant Death. We often see people spout crazy incoherent sentances or do otherwise rediculous things then fall to the ground dead. I think this is an entirerly natural phenomenon and it being attributed to Laanx is just old wives tales.
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How about we just see holy as a result from the crystal way magic enchanting of an item?
Everyone is clear on the basic six: crystal, azure, blue, red, brown and dark. All these magic ways have glyphs and some can be used to enchant weapons like the red way being used to make a flame or fiery sword, the blue way being used to make a frost or icy dagger, etc. Now the crystal way can be somehow used to make holy weapons.
I think you guys are trying to bring reality into this part of the game a bit too much ... remember it's just a fantasy game world with abundant magic around and things do need a name.
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Then how come Diaboli can use crystal glyphs?
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All these magic ways have glyphs and some can be used to enchant weapons like the red way being used to make a flame or fiery sword, the blue way being used to make a frost or icy dagger, etc. Now the crystal way can be somehow used to make holy weapons.
Nothing in settings has confirmed this. In fact, close examination of the magic ways suggests that only the Red Way can be used for enchantment. Of course it's up to my department to decide whether or not that will change. :)
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Well first of all i think we need to find out if in Yliakum "Holy" is just a belief question.
Or if holy weapons DO have something difrent about them physicaly.
This is a question to the settings department.Unless its answered basicaly we can keep saying the same arguments over and over for another few pages.
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This is a question to the settings department.Unless its answered basicaly we can keep saying the same arguments over and over for another few pages.
Something tells me that no matter which answer we give it'll get rerouted to the Complaint Department. :)
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Well its kind of important for people RPing Diaboli.
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Hippocrates, a Greek physician of the 4th and 5th centuries BC, has stated that virus/disease is not a visitation of the gods but rather a cause of the earthly influences.
Is it then fair to say that vulnerability to anything holy, sacred and blessed is not a virus or a disease?
While not believing in a particular god does not make that god non-existent, is it fair to say that such a god or anything related to that god would not be recognized as holy, sacred or blessed by those who do not follow him/her?
Is it reasonable or unreasonable to say that as long as a particular god and religion is holy to a group of people or a race, it is then holy to everyone else, whether they acknowledge it or not? Does it then make a statement that "holy is a point of view" false?
If the settings state that it is rare to find a Diaboli inside a temple, apart from the imprisoned ones, does that mean that temples have prisons or are they solely used to imprison and punish Diaboli?
Thanks.
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Hmmm... how about..... its a game :) . Settings team cant closely and minutely define philosophy, theology, socialogy, linguistics, political science, inter race relations, race anatomy and peculiar bilogical functions, physics, chemistry and every other subject that we experience in real life. Diabolies get affected by holy magic according to what i read on race profiles. Deal with it. If black flame is an uncertain element let settings decide....and until then dont rp that...change it to laanx or talad. Else everyone would want minute details. Work with what settings have told so far. If its unclear dont rp it for now. Work in the space created. There will always be gaps in the ways the world is and how it works. We would then need to hire the oxford and cambridge unversities..and each department therein would have to give a 1000 page report on what each realm of life should be in game and the explanation behind it. Mostly techniacal at that. Good thread. Black flame considered holy like laanx and talad or unholy maybe? for game reason. Maybe a different section in forum for real life discussions...would be adviced. Alll this attempts at theology, sociology and stufff can be discussed there. Cos it looks like people forget its a game.
Settings has tried ....now rp with whats given. many things are there..more real issues can be risen..like .. "oh when a person dies how can his body possibly go with clothes and inv to death realm! not possible! and if it does not..oh! then why does it decay so fast!? are there new bacteria that decays a dead body fast!? so does food spoil fast too!! how to preserve it!??" ---> things like this can also be asked...but they arnt cos we know its a game :) .
The discussion seems to be more in the realm of theocray and spiritual studies. Maybe a post in a new section of forum called "real life"..in which new boards called "physics" "chem" "sociology", "philosophy" , "phychology"..etc.. etc...are created. I am no expert on most of these matters as i havnt specialised in them....but i see none of others have either by the posts here. If an expert on such a field sees it....i am sure he would laugh his/her guts off. Its a game. RP with what settings give. But yes definatly would like to know if black flame is considered holy in case of a diaobli and a black flame priest have a confrontation. Its a game. its a game. Work with what settings give. If a real meanigful discussion on religion and other real life issues are needed take it else where...and i strongly recommend people reading atleast 5 books of different authors who are known to have dissimilar ideas in aparticular field before such a discussion. else prattling an author's viewpoint and not coming to ur own conclusions after reading many books is really the most unintelligent thing to do.
PS: Strongly recommend a new section in forum dedicated to subjects of real life, after seeing ample evidence in posts in this thread and many other threads, players wanting to have ametuer dscussions on real life matters. Else discussions on PS would always end up being discussions on subjects of real world using PS as a template :thumbdown:
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As an additional question to my last reply - is it fair to say that an example of flat vs round Earth can also be used as an argument that just because people believed in the existence of a flat Earth, did not make it so? And those who believed it was round were not punished by the "flat Earth" itself but by people who believed it was flat?
Also, I don't just "deal with it" because I'm thoughtful.
Thanks.
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Very well...wrong choice of words on my part..err the 'deal with it' part. How about ....err.... "being thoughtful" that it is a game and not real life? Settings gives certain boundaries in which we play RP. :oops: ...... But coming back to the thread at hand. Black flame - holy or unholy ...as the threader has asked...i too would be intrested in the answer. Thank you settings :)
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You are putting words into my mouth, just like you are putting artificial conclusions about my questions into your head. And the amusing part is that you are still interested to know the answers.
You are not forced to participate in my thread, if you don't like its contents.
Isn't it a fair thing to say in this case? =)
Thanks.
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Nothin amusing about me wanting to know the question too. I havnt even thought of any conclusions u or any other poster here have thought. I saw a tendency of discussing real life Philosophical issues Using Plane shift as a template, which made me wonder if some have forgotten the complexity fo the job if every detail of social life was to be set by settings.That made me post. But as i have always said...they are are your opinions and these are mine...so i guess its for the readers to read and find yours or mine amusing..or both amusing :) . The .. err...'discussion' on philosophical issues...if they maybe classified as such.....would have been better suited in a different board on the forum..maybe a new board. Was just my suggestion to mods. Anyway..you are right it is your thread and i am not forced to take part in it :) . Please continue to discuss :) .
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I've got no further questions for the team. I've asked what I wanted to ask in this month's Q&A, so the answers will be as official as they get (hence > oningo's and niko's). It's only a matter of time now. You don't have to reply here anymore.
Thanks. :)