PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Bepules on June 04, 2007, 03:43:40 pm
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Related to the topic http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=28776.msg332039#msg332039 (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=28776.msg332039#msg332039)
What I like to complain about: It is not fair if some players use their knowledge they have from talking to GM`s or other people who are involved in game development.
What do I mean? Two examples:
1. A char sold it's silverweave or iron weapon only one hour before the slash decreased. The char even pressed to the buyer to buy the weapon now and not to wait longer.
2. A char who got chainmail gloves and boots as a reward from a GM event sold this items for a huge amount of tria only one day before everybody can buy this from a NPC merchant for much less money.
I would call this cheating because the player used information it had ooc for it's own advantage and for the disadvantage of an other player. Of course you cannot roleplay your char without ooc knowledge. That`s not the point I argue about. But you should not use so special issues depending to the development of the game ingame. That belongs not to RP and a fair exposure to each other at a ooc level.
I ask myself why does some people already know about changes that will happen ingame. If nobody would know this before nobody could sell another a pup by means of it's ooc knowledge.
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Hmmm... this is a rather serious issue you're refering to. Information like that should not leak under ay circumstance. Are you sure it was dilebrate on both acounts? and I mean 100% sure?
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Bepules, first of all, I think your accusations are void. The devs do not pass such information, at least not that I would know. I remember selling an iron battle axe just a few minutes before the server restarted and the slash was decreased, however, that was just chance. As far as I know, chainmail and silverweave things have been sold constantly, not depending on the date. In my opinion, it isn't remarkable that someone sold his things one day before they became available to everyone, maybe he was simply in need of money.
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I'm not 100% convinced that this information doesn't leak out .. I'm certain that the devs and GM's do their best to not let it leak out but we all know that people like to bend rules when there is profit to be had. I wouldn't even be that surprised if the characters involved were alts of GM's ... this stuff happens.
I agree that it's not fair and definitely lousy RP but it's very hard to prove and slinging around accusations without proof aren't helpful.
These things are being sold and bought all the time so who can tell when someone really is using OOC information or when they're just doing what they always do?
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I don't see why GMs/Devs should be in need of money, they just type /item and create some thousand circles in their inventory.
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I still think people who use "name tags" as real information IC, are a much bigger problem. For money isn
't the main goal of PR, but RP is ;)
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In fact not the GM are the leak!
But experienced players know that a wipe or something like that will happen and they can assume a time area when it will happen.
I giftet all my silverweave short a long time before the wipe to friends and changed to normal weapons or crafted, cause I knew that the silverweave area will be finished suddenly.
I think the point is: If I had sold this weapons to young ones (noobs), it would be a not very honourable to me as IC-Char and OOC-player too.
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There's no way for players to know any of these changes before they occur. None. Zero. :) I'm pretty sure the GMs didn't know, and I know that the devs who made these changes haven't told anyone who has no business knowing.
GMs really have no need to pull stuff like this. They've the ability to amass any items and any amount of tria they want much more easily - so it would make no sense for anyone on the GM team to go through all this trouble. To presume that some GM has done that would mean believing that someone on our GM team is that twisted. And in that case, I ask you to look at our GM list with all the names of people on the team, and tell me if you think any one of them is truly capable of it.
People sell items all the time. 24 hours before a slash change, and possibly up to the minute before. If someone pressed the buyer to take the item now, it doesn't mean s/he was in a rush because the slash was going to change in a short while. To think that it's been intentional is to jump to a hasty conclusion, unless you have definite proof of this taking place. It's not a happy conclusion to come to by an means, I can understand that. But so far, it's without foundation.
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Hey, I didn't want to blame any GM or dev!
Of course there is no reason for a GM to do this. I never said, that a GM did it, I only wanted to say that it could be possible that there is a leak. Nobody is able to verify this ex post. But thats not the point.
As Quantus already said it is either honourable IC nor OOC to act in this way I described above. Even if you have only a little clue that a change will happen soon you should not sell your stuff to unexperienced players.
I wanted you to think a matter over this issue that it is not only unfair in a IC way but also and even more in a OOC way.
To the same topic belongs something similar:
If somebody creates an ALT to cheat or steal other chars their stuff it is Ok because it is RP. Not Ok is it to use this stuff with the main char. That is OOC, too, or am I wrong?
The same is considered to be if somebody channels an ALT as a secret agent in another guild to use information with his or her main char, maybe in a guild war.
Discuss, please! I am curious about your opinions.
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Erm I should point out I knew the Silverweaves were going to be slashed about a week before it happened.
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Hahah, then there goes my post :P
Where was this information gleaned from?
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A lot of people knew as the frantic struggle to sell my 5 Silverweave daggers to someone that didn't know began. I think it was found out by someone looking at some file on the system server side rather than an inconsistency from the GM team. Also it has been said that all items given by GMs will become public at some point so you can't really complain if people sell GM items.
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I'm pretty sure that the silverweaves slashes were set to be decreased since they came out.
And, I'm also pretty sure that the general public had easy access to this information
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=26264.msg294769#msg294769 (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=26264.msg294769#msg294769)
But, that's beside the point.
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I can say for my part I had no idea of either of the occurances mentioned and to be honest the players may be surprised to know how little advance information we are given
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Its rather worrying the players have a better idea of what's going on than the GMs.
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Its rather worrying the players have a better idea of what's going on than the GMs.
I didn't actually say that :p just on those two occasions
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to be honest i knew of the silverweave/iron slash reduction for a good month before it happend i didnt exactly know when it was going to happen till about a week before it did but teven then it was only a very soon but i knew of it comeing and they would be reduced for a good month before hand.
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Related to the topic http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=28776.msg332039#msg332039 (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=28776.msg332039#msg332039)
What I like to complain about: It is not fair if some players use their knowledge they have from talking to GM`s or other people who are involved in game development.
What do I mean? Two examples:
1. A char sold it's silverweave or iron weapon only one hour before the slash decreased. The char even pressed to the buyer to buy the weapon now and not to wait longer.
2. A char who got chainmail gloves and boots as a reward from a GM event sold this items for a huge amount of tria only one day before everybody can buy this from a NPC merchant for much less money.
I would call this cheating because the player used information it had ooc for it's own advantage and for the disadvantage of an other player. Of course you cannot roleplay your char without ooc knowledge. That`s not the point I argue about. But you should not use so special issues depending to the development of the game ingame. That belongs not to RP and a fair exposure to each other at a ooc level.
I ask myself why does some people already know about changes that will happen ingame. If nobody would know this before nobody could sell another a pup by means of it's ooc knowledge.
If they find a sucker and make some money without breaking any rules, power to them. We all knew that silverweave weapons were bugged, therefore you buy them at your own risk. We all knew that armor would be available from NPCs in the future, so if you overpay for them then you do so by your own choosing. You have nothing to complain about.
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The same is considered to be if somebody channels an ALT as a secret agent in another guild to use information with his or her main char, maybe in a guild war.
Discuss, please! I am curious about your opinions.
I have heard someone explain it as they do that as a disguise, because you can't just change your name and apperance in the game like you could in rl. It's like putting on a wig and a fake moustach.
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I don't see any problem with alts. Spies are spies. You should check someone's background before inviting them into your guild and sharing sensitive information with them.
People get upity when it comes to alts because they don't like things they can't control. I hate to break it to you, but that's life.
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/me nods "I still see 'name catchers' as a bigger danger for PS. Everybody knows the 'I have connections' excuse is BS (especially when you've never ever told anyone your name)"
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The problems with alts as spies is that it's impossible to find out, unlike when some character would actually use a disguise or hire help to spy on someone. In those latter cases there is still a chance to see through the disguise, catch the person removing their disguise or find out about any meetings they may have with their contractors.
When you use alts none of this occurs, it not only removes all outside control but all outside chances of influencing your plot in the least. I am fully against using alts as spies and sharing knowledge between characters without any IC contact between them .. it is very bad roleplaying and unfair towards others. Whether life is fair or not is neither a good argument nor a point in the defense of this happening :P
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/me nods "I still see 'name catchers' as a bigger danger for PS. Everybody knows the 'I have connections' excuse is BS (especially when you've never ever told anyone your name)"
Please elaborate on the "I have connections" excuse. What is it an excuse for?
The problems with alts as spies is that it's impossible to find out...
Not if it's beeing roleplayed well.
When you use alts none of this occurs, it not only removes all outside control but all outside chances of influencing your plot in the least. I am fully against using alts as spies and sharing knowledge between characters without any IC contact between them .. it is very bad roleplaying and unfair towards others.
It's borderline, but I see no reason to ban it. Typically, alt spies are after OOC information anyway.
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Well example about the 'I have connections excuse' This really happend but I've changed the names (except for mine):
(20:55:30) dude says: ah you're Illyria
(20:55:53) dude looks at Illyria's facial features
(20:55:58) Illyria says: [WOTOOOT !? ARGH YOU FREAKING CAN'T READ NAE MTAGS! ARGH!!}
(20:56:16) dudette1 says: [ D: arg! *hides* ]
(20:56:23) dude says: [ no I know....Merivo gets information from places ]
(20:56:31) dudette2 tells you: [nice, that bugs the heck out of me too]
(20:56:51) Illyria says: [he can't nobody know her name that's freaking BS RP >_< &^(*$#&(*$@#&(*]
(20:57:12) dude says: [ oh....]
(20:57:13) dudette1 says: [ calm down.. ]
I believe this was the last time it happened, the last of many :-\ Let us pray it the last last.
::) and I know, I was angry! But I've told no one my name :@#\ I always introduce myself (thanks to Doria) as "I. bluehair"
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Yeah, that conversation sucked. You shouldn't ruin things by going OOC. Next time, maybe try it like this...
(20:55:53) dude looks at Illyria's facial features
(20:55:30) dude says: ah you're Illyria
(20:55:58) Illyria says with surprise, "How do you know my name? No one knows my name."
(20:56:16) dudette1 says: Merivo told it to me.
(20:56:51) Illyria says: Impossible. I've told it to no one.
This is the best thing you can do. However, you must accept that it is incredibly unfair for you to expect others to ignore your nametag, and if people call you by name, you have very little to stand on if you choose to become upity.
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I'm not saying to ignore my name tag (how else can somebody recognize someone else) But it's OOC use.
and your suggestion would make it so that people just randomly guess her name ??? and Illyria would never give into that it's her name so she can't use it anyway (but you didn't know that ;) )
The way I see it, is that it's a small form of God RPing (pretending to have knowledge you don't have, kinda the same as doing something you can't do ;) ) and mostly the only way to deal with God Rp is ignore it, correct it (oocly) or try to correct it ICly (which is far more difficult)
Though i have to say, normally I don't react that aggravated :)
and BTW it was Dude who knew my name all of a sudden ;) dudette1 probably got scared by me reaction ;)
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Using name tags as a way to find out someones name is completely OOC yes. However isn't it strange that you feel no one would know your name? Even if its your first time playing you did not just "appear" from nowhere. Because of this its simple for someone to rp having heard your name before. Is it still wrong to use OOC name tags inorder to say you know someones name? Of course but if the person gives an IC reason for knowing it then just let it go. Who knows, they might have actually learned your name before and even saw a picture ;D
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Who knows, they might have actually learned your name before and even saw a picture ;D
That might be in other cases (though it's highly doubtful in all of them) But IF someone learned her name (as far as I know there are no camera's ;) a description can, but still no name ) It has to be from a OOC source, no matter what secret shady intel organizations that person has been to, it still is OOC knowledge.
And I think this problem is that people tent to use 'alts' as spy, It's really hard to give out another name then what your name tag says
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You could just use your 'stage name' as your character name and keep your real name secret but I am not sure how that would help.
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Consider the possibility that an unknown person using your name in game is simply working within the limitations imposed by the interface.
If we were standing in a roomful of people and I looked in your eyes, and said, "Your shoe is coming apart." Only one person would look down at his or her own feet. A few others in the room might look down at the subject's feet, too, just out of curiosity. The point is, without saying your name, I can convey immediately which person I'm speaking to here in Meatspace. We don't have this most elementary and primal mode of communication in Planeshift. It takes only a moment to meet someone's eyes, and change your facial expression to something that makes it obvious you're about to speak; it takes much longer to type it in. Because of this, I, for one, use a basic shorthand: The tag identifies each person individually just as if I were meeting your eyes.
Of course I don't know your name; we haven't been introduced. All I have is a "tag" which allows me to look you in the face when I speak to you, in a manner that is obvious to you and to anyone else present.
Using the tag is simply one method for dealing with this particular limitation of the game interface vs. live interaction.
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You could do this in a preface:/me turns to Mornox "your shoe is untied."
I believe this would be more acceptable than:
"Mornox , your shoe is untied."
as it does not imply that your character knows the other characters name. It is a little more awkward but being proper is not about convenience. :P
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This is never going to stop, so get used to it.
My complaint would not be IC usage of OOC info about new items becoming availible. It would be the total -lack- of IC info about the new items soon to be sold in the first place. Merchants -know- what they have ordered, and know when they will start selling such a thing. What kind of idiot merchant would keep this info a secret until the day he started selling said items?
No, he would be hollering "Coming soon, Silverweave daggers and shortswords! Order expected within the week! Save up your tria for these very nice, discount blades!"
Even if it was kept secret, characters would still have ways to find out.
As for the 'name tag' thing, I don't see what the huge issue is, or what the massive whining is about. You are maybe online 5% of your character's life. It is bad RP to assume your character vanishes during that time. You are -not- and unknown person in the game, I do not care who you are. People, NPCs, and others will know your name, and it would be a simple manner to find that out. If I want to know a player's name without the bother of asking, I just assume my character learned it while offline.
I do not OOC ask someone how they know my name. For one thing, it puts them in an awkward place, and will offten make them feel bad, or start an OOC bitching match. For another, it is a waste of time. Lastly, if it does not affect the RP, what the hell does it really matter? Get a grip and stop bitching about it. If they say your name, and should not know it, and it MATTERS, STAY IN CHARACTER and ask them how they know. Then, ACCEPT THEIR ANSWER, even if it is not the most realistic, or best of roleplay. You could suggest to them in tell that they would be better to ask a person's name, but do not -demand- that they do so. It is their choice.
Edit* And claiming to have a perminant name other than the one you choose in Creation is just plain lame in most cases.
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As for the 'name tag' thing, I don't see what the huge issue is, or what the massive whining is about. You are maybe online 5% of your character's life. It is bad RP to assume your character vanishes during that time. You are -not- and unknown person in the game, I do not care who you are. People, NPCs, and others will know your name, and it would be a simple manner to find that out. If I want to know a player's name without the bother of asking, I just assume my character learned it while offline.
Are you using a RP-bot of some sort?
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As for the 'name tag' thing, I don't see what the huge issue is, or what the massive whining is about. You are maybe online 5% of your character's life. It is bad RP to assume your character vanishes during that time. You are -not- and unknown person in the game, I do not care who you are. People, NPCs, and others will know your name, and it would be a simple manner to find that out. If I want to know a player's name without the bother of asking, I just assume my character learned it while offline.
I do not OOC ask someone how they know my name. For one thing, it puts them in an awkward place, and will offten make them feel bad, or start an OOC bitching match. For another, it is a waste of time. Lastly, if it does not affect the RP, what the hell does it really matter? Get a grip and stop bitching about it. If they say your name, and should not know it, and it MATTERS, STAY IN CHARACTER and ask them how they know. Then, ACCEPT THEIR ANSWER, even if it is not the most realistic, or best of roleplay. You could suggest to them in tell that they would be better to ask a person's name, but do not -demand- that they do so. It is their choice.
Edit* And claiming to have a perminant name other than the one you choose in Creation is just plain lame in most cases.
You should make the name you want people to know you by the one hovering over your head. That much I can agree with. But sometimes when playing less savoury characters it pays for people not to know your name and you might get a little defensive that they claim to when it can damage your RP if people can put a 'face' to your name so to speak.
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do not OOC ask someone how they know my name. For one thing, it puts them in an awkward place, and will offten make them feel bad, or start an OOC bitching match. For another, it is a waste of time. Lastly, if it does not affect the RP, what the hell does it really matter? Get a grip and stop bitching about it. If they say your name, and should not know it, and it MATTERS, STAY IN CHARACTER and ask them how they know. Then, ACCEPT THEIR ANSWER, even if it is not the most realistic, or best of roleplay. You could suggest to them in tell that they would be better to ask a person's name, but do not -demand- that they do so. It is their choice.
Accept their answer though you know it's a freaking lie? I'm not a person who likes to get walked over. Shouldn't be fault like this be corrected? Don't you say something about it when someone stands before you and types: "/me kills Under the moon"
And Why is it 'their' choice to know my name? Would you like it when you are in a RP someone walks up and types "/me is killed by under the moon with a quick dagger strike"
I know this seems extreem, but with 'name stealing' it's even worse, If all people would presume your name, Why would one have names for (other then ooc recognition)
Edit* And claiming to have a perminant name other than the one you choose in Creation is just plain lame in most cases.
Why would that be? and 'most' cases, How many would that be? Isn't this the only way to play a good spy? Or just if you character is raised with the believes ones name is very personal?
And yes I keep "whining about it, Cause this is something that is easily is resolved IF people (from what you write, presumably you aren't one of them) just think and see, hey that name tag is as ooc as my heath bar"/me tilts her head "pffuph""
EDIT: About that "just think of it that when you were offline I learned your name" When you was Offline I married you, slaughtered your family, burnt them and sneezed upon their ashes ;)
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Then I am forced to admit -your- characters go braindead while you are not online.
You can continue complaining about it, and crying that people know your name, but it is never going to change. If you are a good RPer, you just take it in and go with it, or walk away. If you a poor sport crybaby, then you will explode in their face with OOC rants.
As for your examples, yes they are extreem and quite lame. "name stealling". Give me a break. Saying your character learned something during offling time is a far cry from slautering entire villages. As said, there are a great many ways to find out a person's name. If it is so freaking important to the state of your RP, then give them a simple tell saying "I would rather you did not use my name from now on, as it is important to my character not to be well known. Thanks." It goes over better than a public chat "OM*(#%*G!!! You would not know my name, you stupid %$%&@(%&!!!!one one111." I do believe one of the login system messeges tells you not to be rude, but you must have missed that one.
And you, Zanzi, assuming your character is doing something that does not affect others directly while offline is no different than creating a backstory for your character. But then I forget that you are a rather shallow RPer that just takes things as they come. Your words, not mine.
If I do see you ingame, and do decide my character would know your name, I would say it. Then I would laugh in your face (to myself) at the first twich of an OOC rant in public chat.
Anyways, I am done here. Continue complaining. :)
*edit* shallow- adj. 1. Means not very deep or involved, or going far beyond what can be seen. Only skimming the surface. Antonym of Deep. 2. lacking depth of intellect or knowledge; concerned only with what is obvious
It is interesting which definition was taken in the post below by a person who says his character ceases to exist when he is not online.
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Why chose an extreme?
There are a few things you are assuming:
One, that the characters don't sleep 95% of the time...fair enough, I agree :P
Two, that the population of Hydlaa is what you see.
Three, that the characters in question talk a lot.
Four, that you not only got their name but, also, a description of what they look like.
A simple "Is it alright if my character knows your name" would be much better than just assuming they do.
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And you, Zanzi, assuming your character is doing something that does not affect others directly while offline is no different than creating a backstory for your character.
There are major differences. That's not to say there isn't such a thing as an inappropriate backstory, but when I'm not using my character, my character is not in use. It isn't in game talking to people. It isn't taking part in RPs. It isn't doing anything. It simply isn't there. Why is this such a hard concept for you to wrap your head around? It's common sense to everyone else.
But then I forget that you are a rather shallow RPer that just takes things as they come.
First off, you're calling me shallow, so these are your words not mine. It's good to see the old moony back. How have you been, flame-boy? I missed you. Secondly, you have to know how to take things as they come. You can't plan everything in advance then force the people around you to follow a script.
Anyways, I am done here. Continue complaining. :)
Hmm. You come in, insult people, then leave. Textbook definition of a troll.
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As for your examples, yes they are extreem and quite lame. "name stealling". Give me a break. Saying your character learned something during offling time is a far cry from slautering entire villages. As said, there are a great many ways to find out a person's name. If it is so freaking important to the state of your RP, then give them a simple tell saying "I would rather you did not use my name from now on, as it is important to my character not to be well known. Thanks." It goes over better than a public chat "OM*(#%*G!!! You would not know my name, you stupid %$%&@(%&!!!!one one111." I do believe one of the login system messeges tells you not to be rude, but you must have missed that one.
::) and I know, I was angry!
;) I'm sorry, but i just get aggravated when i have to explain obvious things over and over in a couple of minutes. Forgive my under the moon for I've sinned :-\
I mostly say it in a more polite way, though if it's said wih a lot of people around mostly I say it OOC in the main chat, cause they can't smell you didn't know it ;)
As for the the many ways to find out a characters name, oke there are. Though in Illyria's case very limited (only her parents know and she self ;) ) But in gernerall there are still a lot of times this happens. I mean Do you have 'shadowed' everyone you (with you in mean a general you to those who 'suddenly know someone's name) talk to?
Also, saying your character has 'learned' someone's name in the time she/he was offline can be oke, but again in Illyria's case I would mean that you have become all of a sudden very very very close to her and she took you in her trust. That's as impossible as what I proposed ;)
::| So saying my examples are lame? Isn't it more lame to just say 'quit whining' while it's a complain were you can't complain about?
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Seems a difficult stance to take Illyria, I mean the name is over your head there it is human nature to use information . . .
We cannot get people to quit using lol in game and you want them to not read your name tag?
I mean no offense but, good luck.
I do not see a good resolution of this complaint for you. Removing the name tag would cause more problems than it would resolve, even if it is just an option. I would love to see people accomodate your rp, seriously i would, but i think it is a bit less than realistic to think they will.
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We cannot get people to quit using lol in game
Sure we can. I do it all the time.
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but i think it is a bit less than realistic to think they will.
Aaah, but aren't drrreams borrrn from surrealisticness? :lol: Wasn't PS it self born from that? :lol:
One can't be to optimistic, only crazy I always say ;)