PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Muzzy on June 04, 2007, 06:50:21 pm
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Hello,
As a new player with a strong RP MUD background I find the parameters of
roleplaying in Planeshift very confusing. I'd say less than half of the people I've
met even respect the division between IC and OOC in what they say. Out of the
people who didn't use "words" like "lol" and "computer" in their every
sentence, less than one in ten seemed to have any desire to interact for
any other reason than making those numbers in the "stats and skills" tab grow.
This is in stark contrast to much of the documentation both in game and on the
webpage, claiming things like "The game is about roleplay...".
I am aware of the fact that the game is in alpha stage and things are far from
finished. I understand that the developers might be more concerned about
making things work right now than acting as a police force to change the
behavior and attitudes of the players. However, I would like to get some kind
of idea what the goals set by the developers for this game are before making
the decision whether I am going to stay and help out as a playtester and
perhaps in development, or if I should just look for my roleplaying experience
elsewhere. Honestly, based on my experiences so far, anything resembling
serious roleplaying is not possible in Planeshift.
I know there is (was, according to some) a strong RP base in the game and all
kinds of plots and events were organized. Many aspects of the world seem very
good and well thought out, including the races and the death realm (always a
hard thing to explain and justify). The character creation for instance is
much better and with a better roleplaying feel to it than what most RP MUDs
have to offer.
But on the other hand everything seems to indicate that roleplaying is to
be taken in Planeshift as something that you are allowed to do "if you are
into that sort of thing", without real purpose, meaning or support. The
policies seem to limit any roleplay into the "harmless" level, disallowing
character development in everything (especially ethics, morals, ideals and
prejudices) except for some quirks and funny way of speech. There is no support
for allowing player-driven world development, rather everything seems to be
set in a way that you cannot affect other players or their experience at all
in a larger scale. There doesn't seem to be any effort to enforce roleplay on
any level.
These are difficult questions and it is not my intention to criticize the
decisions the devs make. Building such a place on one's spare time,
based on the principles of open source (mostly) is no small feat and I respect
it greatly as such, and on some level I understand if the devs just try to
attract the maximum number of visitors to see their work. I do believe however
that the ugly truth is that the "We offer everything for everyone" is not a
concept that works in the long run and some hard decisions have to be made at
some point. Rather than being disappointed sometime later in the future to
realize that the promise for roleplay was not given seriously, I'd like to ask
what kind of roleplaying environment the developers are really after.
If the case is that roleplaying is left without support as something optional,
I believe it would be appropriate to change the webpage to reflect the
contents of the game more accurately.
Thank you,
Muzzy
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You were at the wrong place and at the wrong time, because there is definitively roleplay in Planeshift, even though a multiplayer game of Neverwinter Nights with the DM Client sounds more RP-intensive for now. It's unfortunate that there is a batch of people that make their characters speak like if they were in IRC or another messenger alongside all the 100% powerlevellers( 0% Roleplay), but they are not the only ones in Planeshift. About the complet lack of capability to change and "put your mark in the world", I believe it's a question of lacking development rather than a design choice, and SOON(TM) it shall be changed, allowing guilds and perhaps even individual characters to potentially have influence and fame over the world of Yliakum, to build their own cities in the depths of the Stone Labyrinths and beyond.
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I think Muzzy is more meaning to address the fuzzy rules and guidelines regarding Roleplaying in PlaneShift. As it stands now, players seem to be encouraged to RP (like the map-loading message that says "you are in a medieval world, roleplay your character!"), but are not required to.
Muzzy (we've been chatting) comes from roleplaying MUDs (Multi-user dungeons, something like a text-only MMORPG) where the rules clearly state that a new player will learn to roleplay in that world, or be asked to find another place to play. There are certainly plenty of alternatives out there for players who are not interested in roleplaying. Entire worlds (A Tale in the Desert, Voyage Century, Lineage 2) where there is no roleplay to be found, despite having a rich setting in which to do so.
Some of PlaneShift's descriptions say that it is an immersive roleplay space, but I am not immersed at all when the bulk of the players around me respond with "It's just a game, get a life" when I am trying to RP with them. With the current set of ambiguous rules and guidelines, I have no way of responding to such a statement other than to avoid that player. Roleplay can be a powerful and magical thing, but it is also a fragile thing, easily diluted and broken. We enforce the rules on character names being appropriate to the settings, perhaps we should also ask that character behavior also be settings-appropriate.
Going to the movies comes to mind as an example- we have rules there- we are not allowed to disturb the other participants, we allow them to become immersed in the experience. If one could attend the movies without any rules, with people chatting about outside things and running about shouting and generally making it impossible to really connect with the movie, those who wished to truly experience the films would go elsewhere.
I think the non-roleplayers generally see roleplayers as being overly protective of their style of play. As I noted above, we act this way because because it is a fragile thing, not becuase we're a bunch of sensitive artists (though I am one ;) ). I think perhaps the non-roleplayers often don't understand our point of view because non-roleplay is a robust space, one not easily disrupted. If people roleplay near a group of non-roleplayers, their chat is not going to detract from the non-roleplayers' enjoyment of the game. Eyes might roll, and side comments might be made, but those players will not feel motivated to seek out a new place where they can actually play the game, the way roleplayers must when the roleplay is disrupted.
My two cents :thumbup: I am in favor of some RP-only space being created. Obviously one needs to allow leeway for newbies, and do one's part to teach those who need assistance.
Having created such a space though, we also need to decide what the boundaries are. Muzzy tells me that one is required to play in-settings (duh) in the MUDs, and that includes going along with what another character may be attempting to do to yours. If one is not comfortable with some issues in the RP, one takes it to OOC discussion for a resolution: "Ok, your character does this brutal thing to mine and runs off. We'll pick up from 10 minutes after the event and go back to IC" I googled a few sets of MUD RP rules and it looks pretty straightforward, but with any consensual space of the imagination, it requires maturity in play. Perhaps it is that aspect the the current PS rules are hung up at. With PlaneShift being free, we do have a lot of youth playing.
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Hello,
I intentionally tried to avoid any "this is the way to do it" rhetorics in my post. I believe the devs do know ways to push the game into the direction they want it to go and if they do feel like they are missing the methods, I am sure the community is more than happy to share their ideas if asked.
Perhaps the problem is that I don't speak MMORPG fluently, not coming from the culture. So let me use an analogy to clarify how I personally see the situation.
"Hey Muzzy, we have this group of guys and we are going to play football (real or the american version, doesn't matter) this weekend. We have this great field reserved just for us, the grass is great and the scenery is awesome. Wanna join?"
"Yeah, sounds great. I love football. See you there."
When I arrive at the place, there is a very nice field alright (although slightly under construction, but I knew that was the case) and it is full of people. But most of these people are seriously drunk, running around mindlessly, shouting "lol, rofl". Some are camping, some barbecue. Some just attack others randomly without a reason. Someone has set tents in the middle of the field. One goal is missing and the other is broken in pieces.
"I thought we were going to play football.."
"Yeah, see that one guy behind the tent? He has a ball. Oh, you just missed him. You looked at the wrong place at the wrong time."
Now, I am asking the people who own the field and organized the whole thing, "are we seriously going to play. This doesn't look like it.". If the answer is no, I am probably going home. I might come back every now and then, when I feel like drinking beer with my buddies and maybe even pass a ball back and forth a few times, but I am not going to call it "playing football" nor do I think it should be. If the answer is "yes, but we must respect everyone's right to camp or pass out wherever they want.", excuse me if I remain sceptical about the prospects. You don't need many tents or people sleeping on the field, or even playing some other sport, to ruin the game. If the answer is "yes", I think something needs to be done, because as it is at the moment you really cannot play. I might volunteer to fix the broken goal. Even if it might take a few years to get there.
So, I am asking.
Muzzy
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You better get your money back from whoever you reserved the field from or learn to enjoy bouncing balls off of drunkards heads. Better still take your ball and head off out of town where there are large areas where you can play in which you will see someone only once in a while. High traffic areas are not the best place to hang out, you may even run into several other types of footballers, your ball may be round but those other guys have an oblong ball and the ones over there are having a big circle hug around theirs. That doesn't even consider the lacrosse, cricket and paintball players who might be around.
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First, let me express that I thoroughly share your feelings, Muzzy. Second, through the time in PS, I've have had to accept that the answer is "yes, but we must respect everyone's right to camp or pass out wherever they want.", IOW, the tenor is, as bilbous already expressed, "everyone has their own way to RP, regardless of it's objective quality or utter lack thereof" (to the point where it is considered RP if someone claims their "character" is driven solely by the desire to become stronger, for whatever non-reason), and "it would be nice if people would put OOC in brackets". Obviously, this is almost identical to "No.", so RP in PS is only slightly better off than in for example Lineage (where it is more or less just tolerated), and in general it's the RPers who must seek quiet places to remain undisturbed. Luckily (or does that only emphasize the issue?), the tavern is such a quiet place most of the time, since it houses no important trainer or merchant, nor MOBs with phat lewt.
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I do not know if this is only a misconception of mine, but from the first time I entered in Planeshift, roleplaying seemed to be overall much better than what it is now(And don't go with those cheap jokes "It is because you weren't here before" :P ). Probably because many good RPers I knew left Planeshift, and no matter how the argument goes that it renews, I still miss them for now because until now I saw not much on that matter("For each 10 RPers that leave, come 6 l33ts, 3 godmodders and 1 RPer" is my current impression).
If I have one remark to make, is that godmodding sometimes become rampant, and the aforementioned IRC-like talk with "LOL", "plz" and alike expressions are the main problems related with such trend. Many of such problems seem to come from those who for a funny reason or other play PlaneShift for PvP, even though its PvP is mediocre, instead of PlanetSide or other game specifically designed with interesting PvP.
As godmodding is a very much debated issue and making rules about it may lead to ambiguous interpretations and potential abuses and unfounded accusations, perhaps there should be at least some iron fist against the excessive use of "LOL" "LMAO" and alike beyound brackets in MAIN for anybody besides newbies*, because unless it is clearly defined as OOC or on tells, it tends to annoy any one looking for a serious roleplay experience. I wait for the day the ignore_list will not be needed to be used constantly if one wishes a believable roleplay environment.
*Democracy is the rule of the majority, if the majority is made of "l33ts" and "N00b PKers" for example, then it won't work fine for MMORPGs that strive to give the "RP" acronym a true significance. So it's time to make things harsher, specially now that the quality of roleplaying in Planeshift apparently is continually degrading, specially due to some supposed "roleplayers" and "roleplay-focused guilds" around, I won't point names as people know when they are doing something wrong, that does not matter much. What matters is the situation apparently getting worser as the community slowly degrades, and something should be done to raise the roleplay quality of PlaneShift, because for now, I would rather recommend Neverwinter Nights Multiplayer than Planeshift for people trying to find roleplay.
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I do not know what constitutes objective quality in role play, extremely poor role play is fairly obvious but many of the role players seem to think it is perfectly to fill in the gaps in the settings with whatever nonsense they know is not going to be within the ultimate settings but justify it as a grey area. Others get away from that by replaying endlessly the same tired old soap opera themes, keeping within the settings but never using the tools the game system provides.
If you think back to where role playing games started not one of them offered a system where people went around and did meaningless stuff and gained no benefit from it. In every one I ever saw (dice on the table games) all had some system of character development and the idea was to do things to advance your character within the confines of the rules and the settings the scenario defined. Nobody played a serf who stayed home and did nothing of note.
Part of the problem with MMORPGS is in fact that the mechanics are too static. You cannot bend the rules with the dungeon masters grudging approval, you can only do what the game lets you. A lot of people try to get around this by pretending things happen which really do not, this is a form of god-modding that requires the agreement of all participants but to me it is not real role playing as you are stepping outside the constraints imposed by the system. It is like telling the gamemaster that his villain did not just cut off your head by rolling a natural 20 (d&d reference) because your neck is monstrously thick even though you are a normal human and that is what vorpal blades do to humans when the wielder rolls a natural 20.
So unless there can be some consensus as to what constitutes appropriate role play, tolerance must be the key.
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@Bilbous
The problem with the overabundance of meaningless(and boring too) roleplay is that besides the level treadmill and some quests which fun factor is arguable, the game doesn't offer much opportunity quite now for a character to be a true hero with a meaningful existence, there is no way to exerce influence, to build or shape parts of the world in Yliakum by characters, and this truly makes roleplay using the game engine itself incredibly limited. About the serf's example, somebody tried to roleplay being an Octarch once, to do something meaningful besides tea time chat, and it ended in a heated discussion about its nature being godmodding or not. Adding to that the mentions that people are supposed to roleplay "normal people", I suspect this game may be intended for what in other RPGs is meaningless and uninteresting. We want to be adventurers, war heroes, villains, powerful people, legends or perhaps hilarious types and not a bunch of common people chatting, because those things can easily be found in real life. If PlaneShift is intended exclusively for such type of Roleplay focused on the activities that in any common RP section are given to NPCs because of their uninteresting nature, then many of the people @Bilbous define as, roleplayers, those who wished to go beyond chit-chat, would leave as well.
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This is why I stressed tolerance.
/me is Canadian, does it show much?
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But should we tolerate people constantly using "lol", "wtf" and alike without brackets in MAIN chat? I don't think so.
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The Keys, IMHO, are in fact tolerance, balance, and rule by example. Tolerance is crucial as we do not have the means to enforce Role Play at all times, nor do I think the devs want that. (I say enforce--they do want to encourage it at all times). Sometimes you need to go easy on people to give them the chance to learn.
Balance is also a must. Bilbous, I find your definition of godmodding quite restrictive, but I do see your point. However, if we all RP'ed entirely within the confines of the engine at all times, we would do nothing but kill, mine, and craft. I'd rather play a drunk, thanks. I see nothing wrong with playing a hero if you like, but it had better fit in with the settings and it had better be a well developed character, preferably with an interesting flaw or two.
Rule by example is perhaps the most important. No, there are no rules against being OOC. However, it is an offense to disrupt an RP. So RP as much as you can, and people around you will learn by your example. If they disrupt it with OOC comments, send a polite /tell asking them to stop. Don't be surprised if you have to explain what they are doing wrong. If it keeps up, send a /tell to a GM or make a /report. Action taken will of course be up to the judgment of said GM, but you've done what you can, and spread RP awareness.
Muzzy,
Best analogy ever! Some days I feel like that as well. But other days it's like reading a really good novel that I just can't put down. I've spent hours playing characters involved in just entertaining social situations (yes, the soap opera aspect...it's fun), or in crazy plots. I'll admit it is somewhat hit and miss. You sound like a force of good, so I'm asking you to stick around for a while. Pop in game every once in a while and see if you can find and/or create some RP. In the long run your efforts will likely be appreciated and rewarded (By good RP).
@Raleigh
Did you turn off your chat filter? If not, you shouldn't even see things like that. If so, why?
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There is nothing to prevent you from playing a drunk if you want, just remember to keep going back to brado's to buy your spirits, actually imbibe them and find some way to pay for your habit. It may be that kada-els will also sell you some once the barmaid npc is fixed but drinking imaginary ale is kind of cheating. Do it if you like but that is what I think. Heck you can even buy them from some bootlegger if they want to go get them for a profit but spirits are in the game and you should respect that.
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If not for the PG rating, I think "potheads" would be possible to RP too... Zak could sell the grass in his hideout in the *spoiler* :whistling:
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Speaking of drinking why is it you cannot sell beer to gold miners? do they not get thirsty working there? and the ulber slayers what is their excuse? I suppose they might have their own...
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The big problem (going back to the football feild anology) is not that they are people on the field who do not no how to play the game, or even that there is a game going on. It is that there is no fence around the park, so anyone can come from any direction, completely missing any rules of conduct that might be posted. All that they get is a small note that tells them there are rules somewhere... But all they see is a big whoscow of a party, so they think that is what the field is about. When in Rome...
The solution is something in Character Creation telling people what is expected of them in no uncertain terms ("The use of 'net talk' (lol, OMG, etc) is severely frowned on.). Equate this to a gate on the field with the rules stated in plane sight.
Second, there would be newcomer villages where you originally start the game based on what you chose in CC. NPCs and players would be there to guide you through the things you need to know (game mechanics and expected conduct) in a quest-like format. Call this the dugout.
That would solve a great many problems.
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Muzzy, you are exactly right. Not only is there no one enforcing the rules of staying IC, but anyone who complains about someone else going OOC runs the risk of being mobbed by their peers. Attitudes are so lax that I've even seen GMs going OOC when they're facilitating roleplay events. When I made a stink about it, I was attacked, which makes this following statement a little ironic:
The Keys, IMHO, are in fact tolerance, balance, and rule by example.
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You've received a true, and very nice, explanation of why GMs sometimes use OOC when they run roleplay events. You weren't attacked. Don't exaggerate, it gets you nowhere here.
Sometimes a clear and correctly bracketed ([]) OOC clarification is needed to help some players who might have missed IC comments, actions, or character descriptions to understand what is going on. For example, treating a street begger as if they were a highly respected and wealthy member of society may derail the RP and cause more confusion among other players. Just as sparingly-used OOC text can clarify confusion in any player RP, it can do the same in GM events, but even more since GM characters are often treated differently than player characters for OOC reasons.
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You've received a true, and very nice, explanation of why GMs sometimes use OOC when they run roleplay events. You weren't attacked. Don't exaggerate, it gets you nowhere here.
Sometimes a clear and correctly bracketed ([]) OOC clarification is needed to help some players who might have missed IC comments, actions, or character descriptions to understand what is going on. For example, treating a street begger as if they were a highly respected and wealthy member of society may derail the RP and cause more confusion among other players. Just as sparingly-used OOC text can clarify confusion in any player RP, it can do the same in GM events, but even more since GM characters are often treated differently than player characters for OOC reasons.
I was flamed by Xillix and Vengeance, both of whom are dev leaders. I'd be able to produce quotes of my own, but the thread was conveniently deleted.
Hilon's post was not satisfactory. The problems he used as examples have solutions that do not require going OOC.
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Xillix and Vengeance were commenting on your complaint about typos. It's entirely unrelated to this thread, so my comment to you here stands.
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As does my response. Hilon did not make the case for going OOC.
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His case was that sometimes it was needed, that's pretty obvious and understandable.
As for other GMs, I don't thing they are supposed to go IC at all.
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I already know what to conclude about that thing, lets leave at that. Now back to the discussion here.
I played for quite some time a MMOG that had a "noob island" where quests were used in a tutorial form to teach people on how to play, and also gave you a nice headstart (In fact you could gain several levels by simply doing the quests), instead of starting in nowhere without nothing in your inventory. Those elements really add some finesse to any game and make things easier for everybody. Now as UTM said, what we really need is something like that, but also with some OOC hints about roleplaying. It might be a challenging concept, but a roleplaying tutorial would really help with many things if properly done, I suggest part of its content as IC, and part of its content as OOC(to explain in-game the concept of roleplaying, and with the brackets, of course). This really will make a huge difference on user-friendliness regarding Planeshift.
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I agree with that. As long as it's not too long.
Movement passed!
[Who says I'm self-important?] :P
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His case was that sometimes it was needed, that's pretty obvious and understandable.
Is it, though? Can you think of a situation where a GM participating in an RP event has no other choice but to go OOC in public chat?
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I think a tutorial shouldn't be mandatory, but messages should really recommend a new player to go through it before going in game, just like in many games I know. I don't like the idea of forcing everybody to pass through a "roleplay tutorial", unless it is completely seamless in relation to the rest of game and looks like a natural part of it on its composition.
I mean something like a NPC talking to you just as you arrive who you can ask questions to(Perhaps using a system like Oblivion's - choose subject you want to ask about, then type the IC message of your character - ,because a significant change on the way NPC chat currently works is also very important for user-friendliness, as really effective chat AIs are very far from ou reality), and then this NPC will recommend him to talk with another NPC. While that OOC messages would them appear explaining detailedly the controls and such, among pieces of roleplaying related with the occasion where your character is(also a good moment to teach /me and /my), perhaps a quest could involve going into the pub, and then the NPC said you could ask for a beer and he would pay for it. Then a menu would explain to you to think whether your character does not drink alcohol or not, and give the appropriate answer like "Sorry, I do not drink", or "No, but thanks for the offer", as an example of a roleplaying tutorial in context with what is happening. I know it is no easy deal, but this is definitively something to look for, but I think this is more of a case for the wishlist, perhaps.
With a tutorial and clear warnings in-game about the roleplaying nature of Planeshift, also there will be no excuse for the noob who insists on using LOLZ, ROFL, WTF and such on main chat and without brackets. Perhaps a smaller part of the tutorial on its ending about godmodding and how to avoid doing it could also be implemented, to make things even more clear.
And lastly, closing the gaps around the Settings will really contribute indirectly to improve the overall quality of roleplay, because then the grey area will become smaller and smaller, making things much easier for those wishing to involve their characters in those and difficult for those who intentionally exploit these areas to conceal godmodding.
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Just a few thoughs I had reading this thread:
LOL : reading it Laugh out loud can be read not as an OOC comment deserving [] in all cases. Since the number of emotes is limited it's most of the time a "/me laughs loudly" typed quick in the chat for an immediate reaction to something that was said/done IC. When done this way, I don't see it as a 13375p34|< expression but as a character reaction. Something that don't break the immersion.
Other expressions you mentioned including the F word are forbidden since PS takes place in a civilised place and since everyone is asked to be polite and use a language suitable for every kind of players. "wtf", "stfu" and such are without hesitation vulgarity that is not to be tolerated even used IC. Not only are they disrupting the RP.
Roleplaying within PS rules is not to write pure english literature (something non english natives like me could hardly do). I think that's why I take no offence when reading "BS" instead of "Broad Sword", "DR" for "Death Realm" and other abreviations. Those abreviations are making the chat more fluent and lowering the constraints for being a skilled typist.
So there too there is a range between what's reasonable, questionable and excessively disrupting. If RP is meant to force players to be typists then it's disrupting the immersion by adding constraints to what you can/can't type.
Now, about the "newbie area" where people would have to learn about RP before they can interact with other players:
It appears that the best way for a new player to learn about PS roleplaying is to chat with other players. throwing newbies into a community instead of grouping them together increases the chances that the first players they meet are used to PS and not only other newbies unaware of Yliakum and its ways.
What about the stat raisers, OOC chatters you can still meet in PS?
It is true that they can find more things to do at this point of the game developement. They can gather money, train stats, practice by camping NPCs and such. The game mechanics allows them to do so. But you are also allowed to RP with other players and nobody has the right to disturb your RP.
Having a forced "learn how to" phase when starting the game is not a bad idea. But I am less sure that communication with NPCs using multiple choice pre-defined answers is really immersive. in Oblivion, that you mentioned, there is only 1 role you can play from the start; a prisoner destined to save the world (TES unique scenario). Depending on your character, you could answer a "Yes/no" question is many ways. "Yes", "yep", "why not", "I'll do that", ... And neither the implemented AI nor a multiple choice can allow that. That's why it's much easier to talk to real people. Forcing an unaware newcomer to interract with others to find his way to the sewers is the PS way to make one learn RP and IC chat. Warnings about what's allowed and not being OOC themselves, they take place in /motd and /tips when loading areas. that is in OOC part of the game mechanics. Isn't it fine this way?
Settings and game mechanics are the petri dish. How the community uses it depends on players themselves. To make sure the RPing community is the one people are willing to enjoy instead of taking part to a PvP stats contest, reinforce it with your own RP.
There will always be players willling to play against the system, against others, against RP regulations. Forcing everyone to conform to a single scripted RP only for those is giving them more challenge and adding constraints to RPers. Since the goal is to allow the roleplaying community to build the IC society the orientation of the devs and GMs is more into giving more freedom to roleplay than to force it in a single direction.
A noble goal not yet achieved but since many players like you are concerned and involved at an early stage of game elaboration, a goal that will probably be achieved.
Aside a few flames you would have to ignore, be sure that you don't risk anything in making improvement proposals to the parts of the rules and settings you think are missing or unclear.
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LOL : reading it Laugh out loud can be read not as an OOC comment deserving [] in all cases. Since the number of emotes is limited it's most of the time a "/me laughs loudly" typed quick in the chat for an immediate reaction to something that was said/done IC. When done this way, I don't see it as a 13375p34|< expression but as a character reaction. Something that don't break the immersion.
I don't really agree. When you're having a sensible, role playing conversation, I see it as breaking the atmosphere when I see a
(Excuse the cheesy and lousy example)
Player 1 says: Hello old friend, how are you
Player 2 says: Never better, a bit peckish though. And you?
Player 1 says: I'm so hungry, I could eat a live trepor
Player 2 says: lol
:beta: Perhaps there can be a filter on this like some other phrases in the future. For example, at the present, when you type in OMG, your character says "By the gods!", so when you say LOL, wouldn't it also be possible to trigger a /me laughs loudly command?
Also, there is a difference between slow typing and lazy typing. When I see DR, thats OK. When I see BD, thats OK. When I see "Sell 30K 2.5/ 50/50 BS" in the Auction tab, I think: Lazy typing.
Honestly, even for a slow typist, it doesn't take that long to write a couple of words about 5 letters long.
Also, what so people say about the words Wibble, Soz and Plz in IC?
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DR and BD are acceptable as there is Death Realm and so, but slashes and so aren't I'm for new skill > identification, you won't see stats of weapon until you are able to identificate it. [pushes stats more away from IC]
another terrible thing is death in planeshift, talked many times. Lots of people started to do this > if you loose duel you don't die until you ropleplay it, you are wounded and you stay away from happenings for some time (min 24hours) problem is that these days nearly noone accepts any rules...
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LOL : reading it Laugh out loud can be read not as an OOC comment deserving [] in all cases.
BS. You should always use some variant of /me laughs instead of LOL or ROFLOL. LOL is ugly, distracting, disruptive, and unnecessary.
Since the number of emotes is limited it's most of the time a "/me laughs loudly" typed quick in the chat for an immediate reaction to something that was said/done IC. When done this way, I don't see it as a 13375p34|< expression but as a character reaction. Something that don't break the immersion.
It breaks the immersion. Saying "But it's easier to type!" isn't justification enough.
So there too there is a range between what's reasonable, questionable and excessively disrupting. If RP is meant to force players to be typists then it's disrupting the immersion by adding constraints to what you can/can't type.
Give me a break. You don't have to be a "typist" to avoid using LOL.
Settings and game mechanics are the petri dish. How the community uses it depends on players themselves.
Wrong. The devs create rules for how the community can use the game, and the gamemasters enforce those rules.
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Personally I never use leet speek in context, if I need to laugh I type "Hahahhaha" or "Hehheh" or something along those lines depending on how amusing I think I or the person I am talking to is. I rarely use /me or my. Nor do I normally narrate: Squiniting mightily, bilbous says "you must be joking." One good thing about being a Kran is it seems more in character to be impassive.
I do agree that the community sets the norms while the devs and GM try to guide the community to where they want to go, sometimes, I'm sure, it is like herding geese as every now and then one is bound to fly off in the wrong direction.
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Of course the 'training' villages would be voluntary. Anyone who creates an alt or new character is not going to want to go through the tutorial again, unless they want the rewards. Also, one would not dump all the newbies in one newbie only area. Your choices in CC would dictate where you start (rather than race). Rough example follows:
Mining background- Start point is a working mining camp near a mostly safe public mine. Mining type NPC trainers would be right on hand. Reward for finishing the tutorial before leaving would be basic mining tools, some training, and mining maps.
Soldier- 'Boot camp' in a military complex. Reward fro completing training would be light armor, basic weapons, and future access to official military quests.
Gladiator- Similar to Soldier, but with greater choice in starting weapons, and access to paid fights rather than quests.
General crafters- Start in a bazaar-type area, or individual craft areas. Rewards would be many and varied, depending on what you choose as your background.
Peasant- Start out on 'the farm', a large government owned ranch. Rewards would be knowledge of herbs and plants, minor fighting skills and weapons, plus an easer path to owning your own plot of land.
And so on. Each way would give you a general path to follow, but you could forgo the reward and just leave. Also, each 'camp' would be a working area of the game, so that there would be good reason for developed characters to return there. Player characters could be paid to become teachers, drill masters, and masters (IC advisors) if they themselves went through a more advanced training path in the same area. You can not expect many players to dedicate themselves to teaching new folks the ropes if there is no reward.
In this way, you give new people the knowledge they need in an easier format, and you give older players a greater sense of purpose. LOL and such could be virtually eliminated. (if that be what the Devs or players want)
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Good idea to provide volontary training areas.
Not only being a lazy typist ;) but also a lazy reader, I did not click the search button to see if it's already in wishes forums.
The idea of being able to decide if you want to go trough a full learning process or ignore the informations you already know or won't use would really be a great improvement. Instead of searching for revelant informations for a specific vocation all over the world talking to every and each NPC, having an easy to find starting point would allow to develop a char according to ones tastes.
But does it apply with RP?
not sure.
As I said it's the community that defines the socialy acceptable behaviours. If more people are really disrupted by "LOL", be sure that GMs will care to /tell people using it to prefer /me laughs. Since I was never annoyed by it (maybe too used to net-chat) I never cared myself for the reasons I explained.
My point was more to show that there is a range between what's acceptable:
- Selling BS to the best offer
to what's fully OOC, disruptive, annoying:
- WTS BS /x.x
If a rule has to be edicted, it can only be an advice not to over-use abreviations. Unless someone finds a way to define more precisely and without contestation what's fine and what's wrong.
You can't imagine how many people whined when told that "wtf" was vulgar and not allowed.
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Good to see constructive criticism.|
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You can't imagine how many people whined when told that "wtf" was vulgar and not allowed.
Not only can I not seem to imagine, I can't seem to care either! :)
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Using shortcuts is :thumbdown:.
About powerlevelling and less role playing. I started one topic in past where I (in short) wrote that I really dislike raising off all level caps up. Reason was simple, the more levels in each skill, the more powerlevelling people you get, the less role play. If the game stayed on numbers before, it would be much better, because when powerleveller hits max levels he is done. Nothing to do, game is terrible, farewell. ;) No one supported me there though and topic got closed. ::)
So when we finally hit 300 levels in each skill we will have 95% of powerlevelling people and 5% of role players. Thats how it is, you can think or tell what you want.
Lately Im also amused by the number of people who uses non english languages (I was very lucky with french lately) in main chat and they dont even react on [english only] sentences. Kills any role play at all.
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Wow, okay.
1st off, When i first played the game, i was just like them, i didnt care for OOC or IC or RP.. i just wanted stats and power, however, through my time in PS i have grown attatched to wanting to be in RP and IC. So im somewhat of an oddity :P
2nd, About the "n00b village" what is to prevent them from just ignoring it? They ignore the rules all the time, they forgo with the settings, and seldom read the b/g they should. So the village would be pointless, as they would be like "oh, well F*** that, im going to do this"
3rd That lack of inforcement, or ability to inforce it is unimaginable. But a point was brought up, once a powerleveler reaches maxxes, they just get bored and "delete", however, with the introduction of PVP we are brought and left with levelers who now have something to do, who feel compelled to use those stats to kill, to get OOC fame IC'ly.
PS has been around for sometime, however it has lost track of its true goals, which {from what i read} is to promote RP with its setting and to promote fun for its players. I have tried to steer players/leaters/powerleverlers into the right direction, but it is impossable. The only good rp is one that happens far away from any populace that carrys even a slightest OOC threat.
Question, why do we even need stats? We dont need them to RP do we? True that PS gives the choice to level and kill mobs and so on, but its moved from RP to a more WoW game filled with more and more leets, and less and less true rp'ers. More god-modders.. more more more of the wrong people that ruins even the best rps.
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2nd, About the "n00b village" what is to prevent them from just ignoring it? They ignore the rules all the time, they forgo with the settings, and seldom read the b/g they should. So the village would be pointless, as they would be like "oh, well F*** that, im going to do this"
Some people will never become good roleplayers. The ones who can learn or want to learn should have a chance.
Question, why do we even need stats? We dont need them to RP do we? True that PS gives the choice to level and kill mobs and so on, but its moved from RP to a more WoW game filled with more and more leets, and less and less true rp'ers. More god-modders.. more more more of the wrong people that ruins even the best rps.
Roleplaying can utilize stats.
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Roleplaying can utilize stats.
(I come from a paper and dice background, so take the following as you will)
My opinion is that the RP's should utilize stats. Not that it is very practical right now (and probably not even soontm), but I think people should make the attempt. Without something concrete to base your actions on, you run into something similar to the old George Carlin bit - Everyone who drives slower than you is a moron and everyone who drives faster than you is a maniac. Just replace moron and maniac with sucker and godmodder. Without a standard that everyone plays against, chaos takes hold, feelings get hurt etc. etc.
And since most powerlevelers are too busy powerleveling to get involved, if a random one happens to crash the RP with the sole intent of griefing, ignore him just like you do now (hey, PS is free for everyone, these things happen) but if he's a good RPer, well you've just had a returning war hero join your RP.
The other option, in my opinion, is to hole up in a room at Kada's with that select group you feel safe RPing with and type out your adventures. Ignoring a huge chunk of the game engine that the Devs are pouring their energy into.
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Question, why do we even need stats? We dont need them to RP do we? True that PS gives the choice to level and kill mobs and so on, but its moved from RP to a more WoW game filled with more and more leets, and less and less true rp'ers. More god-modders.. more more more of the wrong people that ruins even the best rps.
Actually I thought about the same. And yes, if I knew such a game I would leave it here and go there. ;) I can imagine a game with no leveling or some limited version where you wouldn't have to run from town and kill everything on sight. At start you would make similar choices like when creating PS character and you would choose for example talents. That would generate your character (different race statistic + talents + choosed life options) and here you go. Fighting would have to be tricky. You could still learn things like crafting etc. etc. I would rather see more options for players which could "change the world" (houses, castles, player made cities, wars), involved in world policy, tons of role playing than insane levelling to be the best. (hey dude whats your swords? Pfft I have 265 already!)
BTW: this system enforces even a player which dislike it to go and more or less powerlevel up. I cant imagine how my character role play would fit if he was the weakest person around...
Im saying that as person which played 3 MMORPGs at once, thanks GoDs I left at least that moronic WoW :S. So Im not lazy, thats not it. ;D
But thats not going to happen here. So let me just continue whinning about 300 levels cap not being a good idea. :P (it will be "fun" to go for it I suppose *sighs*)
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From the Octarchal Decree of 435:
VI.Male, female and Kran children shall be made to fight with sticks and throw stones at targets from the earliest ages....
VII. Once an adult, all peoples must seek and provide monies for at least one year of weapons and armor training.
VIII. All citizens must always be prepared to protect themselves and defend their property.
There is some interesting reading in the game, if you choose not to train combat skills you may be liable for whatever punishment the Vigisemi deems appropriate. And how is it to be determined, no other way I can think of than your skill level in at least one weapon and one armor type. You can claim anything you want but it may not wash with the town guard.
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bil, seeming as you start playing your character as say a yong adult ish type of age, that training as a child is already done. So, saying that once you create your charcter you must train, does not hold and water, as that training has already been done.
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I can see how that rationale can apply to Section VI, but think that Section VII might indicate that having a character with 0 weapon and armor skill is not on. The way things work a "years worth" of training will get you 10 levels in both skills without really trying (Once an adult...).
I wasn't really suggesting that there would ever be an in-game penalty for not doing so, though it may seem like I was, I was trying to suggest that those people who claim "I'm a crafter,( a merchant, the town drunk, etc.) I do not need to train or have any combat skills" do not have a leg to stand on as far as the setting goes. It was also to try to give them a little in context excuse to do what they cannot see their character doing. Sure the childhood obligation has passed, there is an adult obligation as well. Section VIII (it is crazy no? hehheh) then goes on to suggest that even if you somehow manage to assume you covered VI and VII in your characters pre-history, remaining with all combat skills at 0 is a burden to society and punishable with unspecified measures. I
doubt training police will ever be part of the game nor do I think a proficiency test will ever be required for the right to wander the realm. It is not even clear whether the book is a historical document or that the statutes remain in effect. I am just trying to indicate that it is a martial society and everyone is expected to contribute. You can take Switzerland or Israel as a model where every adult is required to be in the militia, unless I am mistaken. Certainly a later Section I did not cite would suggest that in the case of an incursion from the stone labyrinths anyone may be conscripted to aid in the fight. I do not think it says that exactly, that is my interpretation.
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I read that book some time ago and started laughing. Literally. It seems someone in Settings is trying to make powerleveling (or leveling or any sort) a prerequisite to roleplaying, and put a straw and twigs bridge between the two. I have to wonder what is wrong with RPing the exact stats you start out with.
Sure, it may make sense settings-wise, as the world is wrought with dangers, but game mechanics do not support it in any way. Let me lay it out simple as to why.
You are -required- to have training.
Training costs are ridiculously high.
All characters are supposed to start out as peasants without a tria to their name. (starting to see where I am going with this?)
Players represent the ‘heroes’ (those that come back to life) in the game, and as such, are not meant to be the general ‘peasant’ and laborer greater mass of the to population. This means most of the NPC populous makes -less- than a player character.
Training is done by giving -no, requiring them to buy weapons, then sending them out to fight wild beasts, which gets a good majority killed on the first day.
NPCs are -not- heroes for the most part, so do not come back to life after being killed.
-Everyone- is required to do this type of training.
-Everyone- is required to play a killer (beast or man, killing is killing)
-Everyone- is subject to the government sanctioned extortion inflicted on the people by greedy trainers.
-Everyone- would be an expert at rock throwing when they started the game. I see no rock throwing skill at all.
Though I could go on for some time more, I will let it rest now. I will only except that law as an archaic and unused relic of another time (as it was written several hundred years ago) when this type of thing was required just to keep the cities safe. Until training is either severely reduced in cost, or even free to some extent, and it does not require citizens to put their lives in jeopardy, I will not except this as a commonly practiced law.
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You are -required- to have training.
Training costs are ridiculously high.
You are supposed to know how to use a sword. Game mechanic wise, you can use a sword even with skills at 0. This can show that even characters without some serious fighting background, had some basic fighting training. Stands well with the setting (where you're expected to train with sticks and stones).
All characters are supposed to start out as peasants without a tria to their name. (starting to see where I am going with this?)
Reminds me of Fyrd and alike stuff. Anyone knows how it came to the situation that English Longbows were simply unmatched? :)
Players represent the ‘heroes’ (those that come back to life) in the game,
You need to read more ingame books. What you're talking about here is a mere myth.
Training is done by giving -no, requiring them to buy weapons, then sending them out to fight wild beasts, which gets a good majority killed on the first day.
1) This was done in England, and to a good effect (again, the Longbow case).
2) No one is sending anyone at anything. It's for self-defense. The Bronze Doors squadrons are meant to be the first line in fighting the wild beasts.
NPCs are -not- heroes for the most part, so do not come back to life after being killed.
Again, nothing more than a myth.
-Everyone- would be an expert at rock throwing when they started the game. I see no rock throwing skill at all.
Ranged
The skill used for any weapon used at a distance.
Also, I don't think kid training with rocks on his own receives a professional training.
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Another thing I would like to mention, except for possibly Kran, eating is killing. Kran are excepted because they can apparently snack on diamonds (vis. the kran in the plaza snacks on the diamonds you provide him in the course of a quest) and by extension other rocks. Of course no-one is forced to eat by the game mechanics. Pretty near everything you soft skins eat was or is alive.
Is not a gardener who roots out a weed or salts a slug also a killer? Killing is killing....
Low levels of training are reasonable inexpensive, level 10 in one weapon and one armor type would likely fulfill any requirements and can possibly be achieved in character creation.
Unarmed combat, melee or the martial arts would seem to qualify as well otherwise Sinto would likely be forced to use a weapon.
Nothing is wrong with playing the exact stats you start out with, however characters skills will progress if they do anything, even stats would realistically change due to aging, you are talking about some unnatural kind of character stasis. It is just a fact of the game that the training system is as it is, I think it could be better but at least character progression is possible.
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On the subject of Roleplay and newbies:
Is ignorance an excuse if a player breaks other rules? Say someone, relatively new, finds an infinite trias glitch, and exploits it to no end, filling the economy with duped trias. Is ignorance an excuse, then, because they didn't know that it was against the rules to exploit bugs?
Personally, I have no sympathy for the people who don't know the rules, as long as those rules are easy to access (planeshift's are online, are they not?).
Hey, maybe an OOC room before you enter the actual world, with the rules on a nice sign? Each time you logged on, you'd be there, before going into some portal to Planeshift itself. Rules would be easy to read, first timers would be asked to read them :P And people could chat, if they wanted, entirely OOCly, in that room. It'd work, certainly...