PlaneShift
Gameplay => Guilds Forum => Topic started by: Coastal on June 06, 2007, 11:11:22 pm
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Hello Good Citizens
Beware! - There are those who are hidden and are bent on control. They are well organized and well funded. They
remain hidden. They do not mind lying, cheating, stealing, or murdering. They have plans, and they intend mastery over all.
Opposing them is an unorganized loosely confederated bunch of "good guilds" Nice people surely, but it takes better
organization to fight good organization. Are you "good guilds" going to let the "secret guilds" rule ? No !, you say, we
will fight the good fight! Guild Wars ? with Individual Combat ? Following rules ? Who are you kidding ? yourselves ? It will
take the "good guilds" some disrespect, depreciated value as seen by new players, and yes, loss, before they awake. When
they do they will realize they need to ban together NATO vs Warsaw Pact style. They need to form an uber organization
similiar, but better, than the Dark Empire. They need to recruit quality serious, players, not just anyone who wants to
belong. There can be guilds for those folks, the "good guilds" can continue the good work towards all new players, but
during this coming crisis, they need to grow strong, prosper, defend thier rights, thier members, and thier "turf". As an
interested outsider. I see people picking sides, and the lure of the dark side is growing and becoming ever popular. Have
some guilds as your "farm teams", in baseball lingo, pick the best to join your cause against evil, but put-up or shut-up,
and resign yourselves to be also rans, in a game ruled by The Dark Powers !
Mean't to generate discussion, and provoke thought, lets hear it !
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The problem with such an idea is that the enforcement can only occur in pure RP. Guild wars are voluntary, there is no real enforcement body besides that of the GM's and they cannot help in such an organization so as such you will actually need to rely on RP cooperation with evil guilds. This can be done but I'm not sure its what you had in mind.
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Hello Good Citizens
Beware! - There are those who are hidden and are bent on control. They are well organized and well funded. They
remain hidden. They do not mind lying, cheating, stealing, or murdering. They have plans, and they intend mastery over all.
Opposing them is an unorganized loosely confederated bunch of "good guilds" Nice people surely, but it takes better
organization to fight good organization. Are you "good guilds" going to let the "secret guilds" rule ? No !, you say, we
will fight the good fight! Guild Wars ? with Individual Combat ? Following rules ? Who are you kidding ? yourselves ? It will
take the "good guilds" some disrespect, depreciated value as seen by new players, and yes, loss, before they awake. When
they do they will realize they need to ban together NATO vs Warsaw Pact style. They need to form an uber organization
similiar, but better, than the Dark Empire. They need to recruit quality serious, players, not just anyone who wants to
belong. There can be guilds for those folks, the "good guilds" can continue the good work towards all new players, but
during this coming crisis, they need to grow strong, prosper, defend thier rights, thier members, and thier "turf". As an
interested outsider. I see people picking sides, and the lure of the dark side is growing and becoming ever popular. Have
some guilds as your "farm teams", in baseball lingo, pick the best to join your cause against evil, but put-up or shut-up,
and resign yourselves to be also rans, in a game ruled by The Dark Powers !
Mean't to generate discussion, and provoke thought, lets hear it !
1. NATO is OOC.
2. Secret guilds are, by their very nature, secret.
3. Guild wars and duels aren't the only ways to solve conflicts.
4. Good versus Evil is boring, and Planeshift's political scene is more complicated than good and evil.
5. There are secret societies that control everything. You don't know about them, so don't pretend.
6. It is evident that you don't understand what the Dark Empire is about.
7. Talking about "turf" and "respect" is TRASHY.
8. Dark does not mean Evil.
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/me chuckles
"Bigger, badder and better than the Empire huh.
And then what, what do you do when you finally defeat those oh so evil forces that want to rule Yliakum? Give the power back to the people? Massacre everyone you say to be evil and burn them at the stake? Or maybe you'll rule the eight levels yourself, bringing peace under your enlightened rule ... with a touch of procecution and unfair removal of those wo don't think like you?
Why is it that it's always the good and bright guys that speak of war without being attacked first? Do you really believe the lot of you are better because you claim to be good? You'd gladly slay anyone with the excuse of them being evil and wanting control."
/me laughs and slowly walks away
"You'd be better off taking an example of the Empire and minding your own business instead of this warmongering!"
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*Annera shrugs: The world is not as black and white as some people think, means and ends define many things, and the power corrupts, so even the most pure and goodwilled organization, when in a position of power, will betray its ideals and feed itself through the selfish aspirations of its members. True "evil" lies away from the obvious and clear, the real threats hidden under covers of good-will and helpfulness, the proverbial wolves dressed as sheeps. Now what if our "good" is not so good as we think?
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Yeah. The sickest, most evil, most sadistic guilds I've known have all claimed to be good-alligned. Welcome to the world of the sociopath.
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Good Citizens
Or course this is just roleplaying in the game PlaneShift ! Or course references such as NATO, WARSAW PACT, etc are OOC !
Of course I do not know the secret, behind the scenes, dealings of the, nameless few ? and I don't pretend I do. But, I can
imagine, Art imitates Life. Just look at today's OOC world for an example.
However, it does seem I've hit a nerve. Dark doesn't equal Evil. Even in Roleplaying Lying, Cheating and Sealing are Evil. Some
would rather use the term Lawless, or Ruleless. Take advantage of others for our own fun, amusement and enrichment !
But, by all means, do not bring attention to us. Let's keep things behind, the scenes, hidden, secret. What they don't know,
is to our advantage !
The point of my Message should be made clear. Those lawless groups, will take any advantage that they can. They are
organized. They are planning. They will surprise us. Do nothing, bury your head in the sand. Pollyanna Lives among us.
We do not want or need to rule. We need to organize, bring the Azure Light into the Darkness, Knowledge is Power.
- OR NOT ? What say the good citizens ? -
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Sssshhh! :whistling:
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Some of the most evil organizations are actually very lawful. You said it yourself by calling them "organized".
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I agree with zanzibar, organisation is created by order, rules and laws.
I wonder though...
Even the lowest of theives, and the cruelest of murderers have honour. Do the "good" have such honour, or prefer to bathe in their selfishness. Afterall, why be worried about those that lay in the shadows, if that is where they stay? Instead, "good" seems to want to massacre the shadows, and more so, know more about what is happening in the secrecy of the shadows. This is for nothing more than knowledge, knowledge is power, selfishness is fed with power then grows.
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Even the lowest of theives, and the cruelest of murderers have honour.
Not necessarily.
Do the "good" have such honour, or prefer to bathe in their selfishness.
Uh... what?
Afterall, why be worried about those that lay in the shadows, if that is where they stay? Instead, "good" seems to want to massacre the shadows, and more so, know more about what is happening in the secrecy of the shadows.
My character is distinctively evil and attempts to "save" him have been made a number of times. You're making unfair generalizations.
This is for nothing more than knowledge, knowledge is power, selfishness is fed with power then grows.
If you say so.
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Even the lowest of theives, and the cruelest of murderers have honour.
Not necessarily.
From where my character hangs out, there is honour amongst thieves.
Do the "good" have such honour, or prefer to bathe in their selfishness.
Uh... what?
Perhaps too much for you to understand.
Afterall, why be worried about those that lay in the shadows, if that is where they stay? Instead, "good" seems to want to massacre the shadows, and more so, know more about what is happening in the secrecy of the shadows.
My character is distinctively evil and attempts to "save" him have been made a number of times. You're making unfair generalizations.
Not unfair, since I am going by the generalizations made in this thread before my post.
This is for nothing more than knowledge, knowledge is power, selfishness is fed with power then grows.
If you say so.
The way of the world, not because I say so. Most people that yearn for power, have aspirations of selfishness and greed, why else would they want the power? Good then turn against good, and fight for that power, while an "evil" organisation is less likely to have its members turn on each other for that power. They are more likely to share the power, and overcome all "good"
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From where my character hangs out, there is honour amongst thieves.
Yes, but not necessarily.
Perhaps too much for you to understand.
Or perhaps too little.
Most people that yearn for power, have aspirations of selfishness and greed, why else would they want the power?
To change the world as they see fit.
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Citizens, Brothers and Sisters, This is supposed to philospohical in nature and not mean spirited, or disrespectful in any way.
I know the most vocal critics of this post have been ranking members of the Dark Empire, what else would you expect them
to say about a post such as mine?
Everyone is entitled to RP Planeshift, in any way that they choose. The Planeshift world is rich and varied, and has
the potential to keep us all amused. Maybe too much so. A person's character, can have good or bad alignment, They
can affect a few other players with the way they RP. They are quickly identified and avoided, if they attempt to scam
you, etc.
Guilds are a collection of players gathered together to RP a common theme, learn from each other, and enjoy
each other's company. It can add a new dimension to the game. Guilds can also be a powerful force in the game.
Guilds are the creation of it's founder, his/her RP extended to a group format. A guild is only as strong/weak as the
founder's vision and embraced by a strong/weak collection of other players. The "best" guilds seem to have all the
"best" players. It's the vision of the founder that attracts these players, the players stay because they get something
out of the guild, it adds something extra to the game. In the members eyes, it is essentially a "mod" to the game.
They exist with thier friends in a game slightly different than that of players who are not in the guild. This can be a
good thing if it doesn't impact the play of others in Planeshift. However, guilds that are founded on the premise that
they are going to change Planeshift into thier founder's own RP vision, could have unanticipated consequences for
the average player that does not share the guilds vision. It depends on the power of the vision and those players
who share it. Have your guild, roleplay as you like, enjoy the world you've created for yourselves, just don't expect
me, a non-member, to enjoy it also. Do not expect me or others to stand-by and watch as you remake Planeshift
as you see fit.
Jan 2005, It was asked:
"about ur global domination project, how u gonna conquer and destroy all the guilds in PS with only 8 members :rolleyes" Ashamn
Answer:
"It may not be possible but we still have the ambition to do it. Thats what really counts, and thats the foundation of the guild"
Princess Aelya
From present day Website:
"the dark ones are gathered in their quest for domination and control"
"Through cooperation and solid leaderance we shall evolve to claim everything Vodùl created"
This may seem like a big deal about nothing, but, "Mighty Oaks, from little acorns grow", and from another
cliche, "nip it in the bud" Keep your RP, have fun with your guild, just bring down the vision to only include yourselves, please.
Back to the Game !
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Please stop mixing IC and OOC up so much in this thread ... if you want to be yet another 'hero' that wants to rally everyone against the Dark Empire then stick to IC behaviour and leave words like players, NATO, Warsaw Pact, RP, etc. out of your speeches. If you want to organise some fun roleplaying lay off the dramatics and just talk to the people involved, work out a way to pull this off with which everyone agrees and can enjoy themselves. You're confusing the heck out of me :P
P.S.: your quotes about the Dark Empire are from quite a while ago, since then the Empire is under new leadership by Sangwa and it's goals and nature have changed. Granted the website is long overdue for an update but it is bad roleplay to use OOC reasons like websites and forum posts to start an IC war either way.
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Zan, my friend
I am not trying to be some kind of IC "hero", or personally attempting to change the IC play in anyway. I am not
trying to incite any type of IC war. I have not been part of any guild, nor do I want to be at this time. I think guilds
are a good thing, but, you can get too much of a "Good Thing".
My post was just to generate discussion and provoke thought. In this I failed.
What I got instead is Dark Empire officers and supporters, defensively, nitpicking parts of the post itself instead of
a 2-sided discussion. I know the DE may be sensitive lately, because of recent critisism. My quotes may be old, but
they haven't been disavowed. The website may be old, but it's what is out there for the public to see. Like any
secret society, bringing attention to thier plans will only cause them to be shuffeled to "closed door sessions".
As Zanzibar says in a RECENT reply to my post,
"There are secret societies that control everything. You don't know about them, so don't pretend"
As Zan says in a RECENT reply to my post,
"it is bad roleplay to use OOC reasons like websites and forum posts to start an IC war"
What? I am not trying to roleplay in my posts, and is not "official, for the public documentation, and public discussion
by leaders of a guild, reasons to support a reasoned statment regarding that guild? and I am not trying to start an IC war!
Let, me think a minute, Zan ? Zanzibar? Could these be Alt's of the same person? Just a thought ! Stranger things than
multi-headed beasts, have reared thier head.
BTW - Off this subject, if you'll grant me this forum posting fauxpax, since you seem to like to bring it up as part
of your augument, I admire your Society of Vaalnor Roleplay model, as I do that of the Dark Empire. They both
have a place in the game. Your vision for the world of Planeshift may be different than mine, and there is nothing
wrong with that. Just be careful not to impact players that do not share your vision. If they choose to play with you fine,
but don't alter play for others.
Best Regards
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I am not trying to be some kind of IC "hero", or personally attempting to change the IC play in anyway.
You fooled me.
What I got instead is Dark Empire officers and supporters, defensively, nitpicking parts of the post itself instead of
a 2-sided discussion.
If it's everyone versus you, then there are two sides: Everyone, and you.
I know the DE may be sensitive lately, because of recent critisism.
If they correct a mistake or a misconception, how does that make them sensitive? From what I've seen, they laugh off most of the criticism and correct people only as a courtesy.
I am not trying to roleplay in my posts...
You should make this more clear in the future, because you had me fooled.
Let, me think a minute, Zan ? Zanzibar? Could these be Alt's of the same person?
Yes. Zan is one of my "nice guy" alts, and Shalmaneser is one of my "bad guy" alts. Sometimes I have conversations with myself. And "Zanzibar" is actually a shared account, thus my abrupt changes in personality and mood.
Your vision for the world of Planeshift may be different than mine, and there is nothing wrong with that.
I don't think the difference is in vision. It's your methods that people take issue with.
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Ah so this is meant as an OOC discussion .. like I said, you confused the heck out of me and I don't think just me :P
If this is a discussion then it's good because we are discussing. Like Zanzi, who is not me by the way .. no matter how much he'd like to be :P, said pointing out misconceptions on your part when it involves a certain guild they know well enough is just a part of that discussion. One side makes a statement, the other side disagrees .. if we're all agreeing here there won't be any discussion and nobody will learn a thing :P
Now about your last remark ... mind pointing out to me how I might be forcing other players to play things my way when they don't want to? If I'm doing it I'm completely not aware of this and would like to correct that.
A question for your discussion .. why exactly do you feel it's necessary for the good guys to unite against the bad guys? Are there so many guilds that seem to be threatening other's freedom to play in-game or are you mainly interested in a Good vs Evil War roleplay? Not judging, just curious.
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The truth is out there... but also some interesting words @Sangwa already said regarding everything:
First: Any usage of D&D Alignments in this game is out of place. That means any tagging of the Dark Empire, or any other PS guild, using this alien alignment system is far from being accurate, whichever perspective you look at it with. We're not Lawful Evil, Neutral Good or Lawful Neutral.
Fourth: Our objective is quite simple. It has been called world domination before. However I currently put it in the following wording: to please our ambitions and attain whatever is within our reach. This means it actually depends on our virtues. And currently we've proved to be virtuous by most everyone's standards.
Take your own conclusions from this old reply. And a last thing to mention, complaining on the fact a political organization seeks power is the same thing as complaining on the fact business seek profit and lions seek to eat anything when they're hungry. Remember that many "freedom fighters" ended up being pretty different as well once they achieved power. When we speak about political groups, things become very morally ambiguous. Perhaps somebody is trying to use the Dark Empire as a scapegoat to distract people from the real current threats. Watch your surroundings, the Dark Empire would have much to benefit on being completely secret if they sought simply a cabal to take over Yliakum... but there are other groups perhaps looking for that.
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Let, me think a minute, Zan ? Zanzibar? Could these be Alt's of the same person? Just a thought ! Stranger things than
multi-headed beasts, have reared thier head.
Somebody is paranoid, or someone is Schizo ::) Which will it be?
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Now we have conspiracy theorists mixing OOC with IC. Only one thing I can say for sure: Zan and Zanzibar are definitively not the same person. I know the name of Zan's other character, it isn't named "Zanzibar", but I won't tell it here. Lets try to improve a bit this discussion though, accusations of "x being y" won't help with that.
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Zan, and Zanzibar, Please except my sincere apology. Not the way to make friends and influence people.
You judge me wrongly Zan, I said,
"I admire your Society of Vaalnor Roleplay model, as I do that of the Dark Empire. They both have a place in the game."
You can't really fault me for saying that. I continue,
"Your vision for the world of Planeshift may be different than mine, and there is nothing wrong with that."
You can't really fault that statement either, I continue
"Just be careful not to impact players that do not share your vision. If they choose to play with you fine,
but don't alter play for others."
That statement is the one you had a problem with.
Zan asks:
" Now about your last remark ... mind pointing out to me how I might be forcing other players to play things my way
when they don't want to? If I'm doing it I'm completely not aware of this and would like to correct that."
Please excuse me, I was not clear enough. I did not mean to accuse your guild nor DE of anything, it was simply
a general plea, to all groups with a grand storyline for thier RP. I have not had my play impacted by any guild in
Planeshift, and do not know any character who has, although I have read about some, here in the forums.
Forget all the BS I wrote about "Good Guys organize and fight evil, etc" in my first post. This discussion provoked thoughts
in me, and my thinking about the subject, has evolved, during the course of these posts. After all I was the only one posting
that was concerned (thus my comment, that my thought's had not provoked a 2-sided discussion. I don't count myself)
We are all here to have fun and enjoy Planeshift. Let's not get too serious, even if you have spent considerable time
constructing the mods, that you find enhances your experience. It is after all, just a game.
I have nothing else to add to this "discussion", and concede to the impeachable logic and wit, of the debators of
the opposing view.
May the Azure Sun, brighten your day, light your path, and bring you immense Joy !
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The truth is out there... but also some interesting words @Sangwa already said regarding everything:
First: Any usage of D&D Alignments in this game is out of place. That means any tagging of the Dark Empire, or any other PS guild, using this alien alignment system is far from being accurate, whichever perspective you look at it with. We're not Lawful Evil, Neutral Good or Lawful Neutral.
Fourth: Our objective is quite simple. It has been called world domination before. However I currently put it in the following wording: to please our ambitions and attain whatever is within our reach. This means it actually depends on our virtues. And currently we've proved to be virtuous by most everyone's standards.
Take your own conclusions from this old reply.
Especially in reference to "usage of D&D Alignments in this game is out of place":
Name: Gobble
Location: Any location with substantial covereage.
No. Appearing: 1-5
Frequency: Uncommon
Alignment: Neutral-evil
Size (h/w/l): 90x60x90cm
For those who wonder, the above can be found "in this game".
Take your conclusions.
The entire matter with the Dark Empire is becoming extremely annoying. Leave the fricking Dark Empire reputation to their PR people. It's their job, it's their part in the spectrum of Planeshift's role-play. Not yours.
I had my Magnir character called "evil" by some Dark Empire members and people somehow associated with them. Out of false accusations, in fact. Did I whine? No. Did I try to change their opinions ooc'ly? No. I took in-character measures to fix it.
If Dark Empire's ill reputation finds its way to the forums, well too bad. That only means their public relations doesn't do too well. What it does not mean is that you can turn the entire thread into Dark Empire argument.
If the name does not do them well, they can change it (and let's just point out the name originally did refer to the evil side of the empire).
If their behaviour gives them bad name, maybe they should change that too.
What I don't get it is why the same people over and over whine about people calling it evil. Neither of my two characters trusts the empire. Both have reasons to do so. Want to argue with me whether they have actually seen what they've seen? If so, too bad. I don't.
Also, for a change try role-playing characters that aren't meant to be "perfect" and extremely "open-minded". Not only are they boring, but it also causes this absurd ooc defensive behaviour.
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Now, back to the point of this thread. I really believe that we do not need a Caligula, Nero, Alexander The Great, Atila or alike to rally the forces of those who truly believe in altruism. What Yliakum needs on the "goody-two-shoes" side are people like Jesus, Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Malcom X and Nelson Mandela. Somebody who kills as constantly as a serial killer isn't the type that should be the "moral standard" for a "good guild". Being "good" isn't simply murdering "evil", it in fact lies much beyond that.
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For a simple discussion people seem to get awfully upset here so I'm going to bail out as well.
For clarification though, Coastal, I don't have a problem with you at all .. I was just discussiing and my questions were meant. I was trying to understand where you came from because it didn't make sense to me.
"Just be careful not to impact players that do not share your vision. If they choose to play with you fine,
but don't alter play for others."
I didn't have a problem with this, I was just honestly curious if I really did act that way without knowing. Thank you for your compliments towards Vaalnor though but it was never my idea to begin with. Induane, Valbrandr and Lishom created Vaalnor, I just hopped on the bandwagon later on.
Draklar, just one thing ... when players engrave OOC ideas like "Empire = evil" into their character's minds then the influence of PR people like Sangwa, Nurahk and Hwnae here disappears. That is what I noticed to be wrong .. people do not judge the Empire by it's in-game behaviour but by it's OOC reputation, they'll expect evil in every act, even the good ones .. becoming paranoid beyond imagination. Either way it is what it is and I'm going to leave this thread at this point.
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Draklar, just one thing ... when players engrave OOC ideas like "Empire = evil" into their character's minds then the influence of PR people like Sangwa, Nurahk and Hwnae here disappears. That is what I noticed to be wrong .. people do not judge the Empire by it's in-game behaviour but by it's OOC reputation, they'll expect evil in every act, even the good ones .. becoming paranoid beyond imagination. Either way it is what it is and I'm going to leave this thread at this point.
Okay, just keep in mind you were asking for it:
IC Reasons
- The History: Throughout many years (or more likely ages) Dark Empire was in fact malicious force led by a Diaboli line all the way until the (cruel) empress Aelya.
- New Leadership: Sangwa is a politician-turned-thief. Not exactly someone people would easily trust.
- The Dishonesty: After the recent auction I "overheard" a private conversation between Donari and one of "PS nobles", in which her excessive greed and charlatanism became all the more obvious. Greedy merchant is a book example of "lawful-evil" alignment.
- Ill Ambitions: This is somewhat private, but as the idea was open to all imperialists, it could easily slip out - Dark Empire wishes its guards to induce fear. Not exactly virtuous behaviour.
- Excessive Violence: Dark Empire proclaims itself to be much like a family. Well, maybe it is, but surely a pathological one. Words of Nurahk to one of aspirants (said in semi-public place): "You raise your voice to a flame again and you'll be stuck in a cage for the rest of eternity." Threat of cutting off tongues followed. From Hwnae you could hear phrases such as "shut your trap", or "Be silent, aspirant! You will obey the order to stay your hand or you will face the consequences of your disobedience." While it may sound semi-harmless, let me just point out while speaking the second, Hwnae blatantly implied using his battle axes would be directly connected with the "consequences". And this leads me to another point.
- The Tyranny: Dark Empire began developing its laws. What one may find interesting is that while the laws clearly defend wealth of the Imperialists, further defending those in power from betrayal; There is absolutely nothing about condemning those in power for oppressing those below them (besides maybe one vague rule, which would easily be sidestepped by any lawful-evil character). I'm checking it for a while now, waiting until change to this shall be found in their library.
- Wicked Behaviour: That one was just way too obvious. Nurahk and another DE member laughing in a tavern about someone's death through plague. While the fact it was rogue they laughed about might be completely okay for them, the not-so-rich part of the society wouldn't feel okay with this (knowing stealing is a necessity, not a hobby). How can someone feel okay in presence of people who treat inhumane death so lightly? Also, it was a plague..? Quite frankly plagues take many lives. Is rogue being one of those deceased enough of a reason to laugh about it?
And that's just my observations. There are people who observed the Dark Empire for a far longer time than I did. I didn't feel all right with pulling out all this on the forums, but as I said: Forcefully implying no one has reason to consider DE as evil, is asking for one to be proven wrong. You're condemning people's characters here.
And before anyone says the above points are completely natural: Too many games. In real life many "merchants" are actually humble and honest people. People don't consider plagues funny and in past uprising was taken against rulers like that as soon as forces assembled. On the other hand, Alfred the Great, anyone? He achieved much for England and still was known as the "protector of the poor". There's no comparison between Alfred's England and DE, really. And still by D&D standards, Alfred the Great would be considered as lawful-
neutral.
Even in Planeshift the neutral people seem much more "good" than the Dark Empire as a whole. Threats and verbal violence most certainly aren't means people of Yliakum use to achieve what they need. Nor do they carry out so much of this shady business.
And I'm not upset with this discussion. I'm upset with how you try to dictate how people should role-play towards DE.
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First off, Nurahk isn't a typical DE member.
Secondly, the history and background of the Dark Empire should be communicated in-game and in-character.
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I think it's time to put things straight about one of the reasons(cultural in this case) why DE is viewed as "evil" with a simple comparison between our western PoV regarding good and evil and "political values":
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9c/Political_chart.svg/300px-Political_chart.svg.png)
See the topmost corner? It represents authoritarianism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarianism), or in our case, something constantly associated with evil. When we speak about it we are speaking about a system of social control based on strict obedience to a form of authority with strong control of people's life by it, it also relates with police states, dictatorships, absolutism, oppression, obedience, loyalty till death. We westerns(the majority at least) certainly scorn the values associated with ideologies on this spectrum. From our cultural standpoint it can be quickly associated with the concept of evil. A coercive and oppresive organization subduing people's will and smashing their liberties won't be seen as a good thing.
Now on the other diametrically opposite of the bottom of that compass lies libertarianism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_libertarianism), where it is believed government shouldn't interfere with people's lives, and is supported the supremacy of individual rights and personal freedoms over any kind of authority, associated with freedom of speech, freedom of press, freedom of choice among others many of us are used with and even more(pro-legalization of marijuana among other liberal stances over polemic questions). This position may be filled with the so-called archetypes of the "Freedom Fighters", and promote their ideals of freeing a land from despotism or struggling to achieve even more civil liberties in an already mostly liberal environment. This people, in a quick glance, can easily be associated with the concept of good in our eyes(except if religious values go against their libertarian principles).
So here it sums up:
Dark Empire is unarguably a very authoritarian organization, including on its own ideology, and from the OOC point of view of the majority of the Western World(that is sometimes very difficult to remove completely because of its cultural origins), being authoritarian equates with being evil, therefore the Dark Empire is "evil".
And to make things even more accentuated, the commonly remembered connotations of the word "Imperialism" aren't very positive either, as they are related with ruthless conquer of foreign lands. The "Dark" is not the main source of this view, in my opinion.
"Ambition to achieve what is possible" and "World Domination" can be synonymous, if an organization becomes sufficiently powerful for it. And values aren't so solid at all on groups seeking political power. Ambiguous statements might make people assume the worst.
An I will be honest, when I try to think how would the Dark Empire work once it became a nation, first things I remember are 1984 among other dystopian novels...
Words have power, Here is an Example: (http://youtube.com/watch?v=8TLD3Z6sJWA)
Norsefire is "good" on all its propaganda efforts, but in fact all its working lies on tyranny and oppression, and once a masked man comes to announce and broadcast the truth, things start to slowly change...
But I see the Dark Empire more akin on its principles to other fictional group: the PlanetSide's Terran Republic (http://www.terranrepublic.com/), and it also is associated with evil while the "freedom fighters" of the "New Conglomerate" there are considered by its players as the "good guys".
Now think about it: a dystopian empire isn't something so bad from OOC perspective, specially due to the fact things are currently very bland and uninteresting around Yliakum. We need some tough to overthrow oppressors so we can have some focus instead of wandering around chit-chatting. If the Dark Empire fails on presenting an interesting perspective on that, I would be tempted to push a straight-forward(no disguises of its nature) "Orwellian" guild to make something akin to a very small version of IngSoc, but more medieval.
Finally, there are some "empires"(read: countries that seek domination) that use the values of freedom, democracy and liberty as pretexts to invade and "free" other countries ruled by dictators, but this is another history...
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Secondly, the history and background of the Dark Empire should be communicated in-game and in-character.
And it has been. But it's awfully annoying when in response to doing the above you see DE members scolding it in ooc threads. And if we don't want to drag in character stuff out of character, how about simply accepting how others role-play their characters, hmm? Personally when I see someone role-playing in a way I don't approve, I simply walk away. It's as simple as that. No need to make posts about how Planeshifters just have a need to see DE as evil (another thread). And obviously this thread wasn't meant to be what it has been turned into.
Also, Nurahk doesn't need to be a typical member so long as he takes a high position.
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Dark Empire is unarguably a very authoritarian organization, including on its own ideology, and from the OOC point of view of the majority of the Western World(that is sometimes very difficult to remove completely because of its cultural origins), being authoritarian equates with being evil, therefore the Dark Empire is "evil".
This simply is not true. The freedoms you love so much only exist because of the rule of law.
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This simply is not true. The freedoms you love so much only exist because of the rule of law.
So freedom is evil? :lol: Now we can all (the ones who love freedom) say we're evil \\o//
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I hate it when I can't keep promises I make myself :P but here goes ...
Some of your IC reasons to dislike the Empire I won't disagree with, others I do. Since I'm tired of this discussion I won't bother to express my thoughts. My problem was not with Draklar but with others who do not have the same long IC history with the Empire .. in fact many of them were newly created characters who couldn't have any IC history with the Empire, unless they made it up, but still remain solid in their opinions of an evil Empire. That is what bothered me.
And I am not trying to dictate how people roleplay, I'm just upset by some people's reasons for roleplaying that way. I never singled you out, Draklar but I guess you felt I did.
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This simply is not true. The freedoms you love so much only exist because of the rule of law.
So freedom is evil? :lol: Now we can all (the ones who love freedom) say we're evil \\o//
Alice in wonderland logic at its best.
Who said that freedom was evil?
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I never singled you out, Draklar but I guess you felt I did.
Nope, I just felt I were included.
In reference to the entire post, fair enough :P
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Alice in wonderland logic at its best.
Who said that freedom was evil?
;) You don't have to be able to see how deep the rabbit hole goes, just to see that I said that
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Draklar, just one thing ... when players engrave OOC ideas like "Empire = evil" into their character's minds then the influence of PR people like Sangwa, Nurahk and Hwnae here disappears. That is what I noticed to be wrong .. people do not judge the Empire by it's in-game behaviour but by it's OOC reputation, they'll expect evil in every act, even the good ones .. becoming paranoid beyond imagination. Either way it is what it is and I'm going to leave this thread at this point.
Okay, just keep in mind you were asking for it:
IC Reasons
- The History: Throughout many years (or more likely ages) Dark Empire was in fact malicious force led by a Diaboli line all the way until the (cruel) empress Aelya.
- New Leadership: Sangwa is a politician-turned-thief. Not exactly someone people would easily trust.
- The Dishonesty: After the recent auction I "overheard" a private conversation between Donari and one of "PS nobles", in which her excessive greed and charlatanism became all the more obvious. Greedy merchant is a book example of "lawful-evil" alignment.
- Ill Ambitions: This is somewhat private, but as the idea was open to all imperialists, it could easily slip out - Dark Empire wishes its guards to induce fear. Not exactly virtuous behaviour.
- Excessive Violence: Dark Empire proclaims itself to be much like a family. Well, maybe it is, but surely a pathological one. Words of Nurahk to one of aspirants (said in semi-public place): "You raise your voice to a flame again and you'll be stuck in a cage for the rest of eternity." Threat of cutting off tongues followed. From Hwnae you could hear phrases such as "shut your trap", or "Be silent, aspirant! You will obey the order to stay your hand or you will face the consequences of your disobedience." While it may sound semi-harmless, let me just point out while speaking the second, Hwnae blatantly implied using his battle axes would be directly connected with the "consequences". And this leads me to another point.
- The Tyranny: Dark Empire began developing its laws. What one may find interesting is that while the laws clearly defend wealth of the Imperialists, further defending those in power from betrayal; There is absolutely nothing about condemning those in power for oppressing those below them (besides maybe one vague rule, which would easily be sidestepped by any lawful-evil character). I'm checking it for a while now, waiting until change to this shall be found in their library.
- Wicked Behaviour: That one was just way too obvious. Nurahk and another DE member laughing in a tavern about someone's death through plague. While the fact it was rogue they laughed about might be completely okay for them, the not-so-rich part of the society wouldn't feel okay with this (knowing stealing is a necessity, not a hobby). How can someone feel okay in presence of people who treat inhumane death so lightly? Also, it was a plague..? Quite frankly plagues take many lives. Is rogue being one of those deceased enough of a reason to laugh about it?
And that's just my observations. There are people who observed the Dark Empire for a far longer time than I did. I didn't feel all right with pulling out all this on the forums, but as I said: Forcefully implying no one has reason to consider DE as evil, is asking for one to be proven wrong. You're condemning people's characters here.
And before anyone says the above points are completely natural: Too many games. In real life many "merchants" are actually humble and honest people. People don't consider plagues funny and in past uprising was taken against rulers like that as soon as forces assembled. On the other hand, Alfred the Great, anyone? He achieved much for England and still was known as the "protector of the poor". There's no comparison between Alfred's England and DE, really. And still by D&D standards, Alfred the Great would be considered as lawful-
neutral.
Even in Planeshift the neutral people seem much more "good" than the Dark Empire as a whole. Threats and verbal violence most certainly aren't means people of Yliakum use to achieve what they need. Nor do they carry out so much of this shady business.
And I'm not upset with this discussion. I'm upset with how you try to dictate how people should role-play towards DE.
Alright. Let's just put this to rest.
Leadership: Sangwa is one of the few Imperials who are actually trusted, but, that's a decent point. All the same, it's not enough Reason for the recent Empire-hate going around.
Dishonesty: A merchant being greedy... believe it or not we also have fighters who enjoy fighting, spies who like being stealthy and Shadowlords who like being awesome. I'm just saying that a greedy merchant isn't a reason at all. Most any merchant is greedy.
Ill Intentions: Every military force is meant mainly for inducing fear. And if you've found a guard doing something inappropriate, you should inform Hwnae. Out of all the fighters I know, the Imperial Guard happen to be the ones who tolerate their members doing crimes the least.
Excessive violence: Nowhere near an excuse for the recent Empire-hating. This is merely discipline, the same people who say this would have to be blind to ignore how well we take care of our members. I believe Roberet is the one I said that to, if you ask him he'll tell you that I'm quite often helping him when I can.
The Tyranny: You really searched long and hard, didn't you? The Empire trusts those it promotes.
Wicked Behavior: That plague was a poison, Draklar, one meant to be given to me. I usually wouldn't have been quite so wicked but the man didn't seem against poisoning half of my friends (to whom I offered the drink and a warning). If anything, those "good" people opposing the Empire are guilty of wicked behavior.
Though some of these have a basis in truth, and they aren't all completely wrong, nobody with half a brain would do more than take a second look at the Empire. Currently, the only reason people want to attack the Empire is because they are mediocre (at the very best) roleplayers who see "Dark" and "Empire" together. They ignore the fact that there has not been a guild or person slighted by the Empire in god-know-how long. They ignore the fact that the Empire does not break any laws. No member has murdered, stolen, assassinated or framed anybody. The Empire has never blocked people from a public place (bar a misunderstanding with Ecuetas), they've never held anybody against their will. In fact, all the Empire has done is train, listen, learn and trade.
All of this leading me to believe that it's simply OOC jealousy or the need to be a "good" guy and fight the "dark" side which has lead to the recent outbreak of Empire-hate. The people who hate the Empire do so ICly for the dumbest of reasons ("They tried to raise the price of gold", "Roberet tried to defend the Empire but did so poorly", "About two years ago they did something bad, I swear").
Hell, even in dealing with those who seek to destroy the Empire, only one person has been a target of attack.
If you can find me a half-decent reason for the latest Empire-hate, please bring it forth. And I mean Empire-hate not, oh, they don't seem too good, let's look into them.
It's kind of sad that the roleplay in PS has reached such a low level that had the Dark Empire been called the Light Kingdom we'd probably be hailed as heroes daily.
Now, unless stating a reason, let us leave these drop. Considering it is only lightly related to the topic at hand.
I do believe that what our good friend the topic starter was trying to get at was that the "evil" side of Yliakum seems to be much more organized than the "good". I disagree with "evil" and "good", as you all know, I find it usually does nothing more than create terrible RP ("I's good, I wanna fight da evils") but, I do agree that more organization between allied guilds is a must. As far as I have seen, The Royal House of Purrty is the only guild who actually pays heed to their agreements. They don't just strike an alliance, they look at the terms of the alliance and the needs of the members. (As far as I have seen, in fact, The RHoP is one of the amazingly well RPed guilds out there, possibly the best.) By doing this they add meaning to the alliance and reduce the amount of complication when one side is in need of the other.
I don't think anybody's plan matches the Dark Empire's in organization, though. But, at the moment, there is a lot of confusion. Lines need to be drawn to show people what power they have, rules need to be finalized and alliances need to be made. The PR needs to be worked on tremendously, as it is, with all the organization being done, a lot of people are left without knowing half of the truth, even I find it hard to answer some questions from time to time. And the Forces need to start working together more closely.
All the same, the plan is amazing. The Community of Vaalnor also has a great set up, very similar to the Empire's and done a little bit before, I believe. The Royal House of Purrty is also very well organized though, often overlooked because of how unique it is. And Duraza, though he isn't a guild himself, was very organized.
So, if you must use "evil" and "good", I'd say both sides are about equal in organization, there are just a ton of more "good" people. (DE, RHoP, CoV being "Good", Duraza being "Evil".)[/list]
(I love how I underlined my typo...smooth. Fixed now)
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Dishonesty: A merchant being greedy... believe it or not we also have fighters who enjoy fighting, spies who like being stealthy and Shadowlords who like being awesome. I'm just saying that a greedy merchant isn't a reason at all. Most any merchant is greedy.
And before anyone says the above points are completely natural: Too many games. In real life many "merchants" are actually humble and honest people.
Hey, 'least I tried, right?
I can address some points... For example most guilds having proper (and actually better) discipline without threatening their members, or how much truth there is in saying guards are meant to provoke fear in the citizens, but it's obvious we won't agree on anything, right?
Also, sorry for my being a mediocre role-player, Nurahk.
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I don't really care that there are other ways to do things. I'm just saying that our way isn't evil. There being a few or even many merchants who aren't greedy doesn't make those who are evil.
So far, by your reckoning, almost every army/armed force is evil because the threaten their members. Pretty much every business is evil because they are greedy. Police forces are also evil...
You know what, let's go with a shorter list. The people who don't fall into evil by your reasoning:
Jesus.
(Then again. According to your tyranny thing. He never did make rules about him not being able to use his powers against everything...so he's a bit on the border there.)
Long list.
And to be honest, for the most part I don't care. But when it gets up to four groups who have thus far attempted to attack the Dark Empire because we are "evil" it becomes something of an annoyance and definetly, a terrible RP.
And I said mediocre at best ;)
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Positive Propaganda X Negative Propaganda, that's what this discussion is about.
Example: "All merchants are greedy so it's not wrong" X "Imperialists eat children" :P
I don't have OOC reasons to hate the Empire(it doesn't exist in real life, wake up people!). Neither my current main character does, because she isn't so hooked up in ideological questions as Annera. I am more interested on ideologic conflicts, meme wars (http://freethought.homestead.com/Meme.html) and information warfare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_Warfare) than on the beaten up "GOOD X EVIL with knights in shining armor beating the dark army of Doom". The DE is autocratic and imperialist(duh!), as there are those who are democratic, monarchic, oligarchic, etc. From each's point of view, all others could be viewed as "evil" from the eyes of a memeoid(individual who became so fanatic for a value that he would sacrifice himself for it, like a bomber man, for example). A democracy or republic is a sign of absolute chaos in the eyes of the authoritarian, while the autocracy of an empire is an oppressive tyranny in the eyes of a democrat. So claiming "X is evil, Y is good" on politics won't work.
Now, I will try to go back on topic:
There was already something like that, an allegiance of "good guilds", the Sworn Council of Yliakum (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=25301.0), but I suspect it may be dead now. I don't see much "evil" in Yliakum myself, so I think it's quite useless to worry about all.
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Aye, that quickly became background. Most didn't think twice of it after a week. The thing about having an allegiance of "good guilds" is that there is surprisingly little "evil" going around.
Of course, to poke things into the region of IC, if somebody wants to organize something like this, I'd be glad to help.
I also remember there being a militia force, I was a part of this, an exploration officer, if you will. It was made to deal with any large threats to Hydlaa (Rogue attack, Beasts at the Bronze Gate), wouldn't mind seeing that.
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I don't really care that there are other ways to do things. I'm just saying that our way isn't evil. There being a few or even many merchants who aren't greedy doesn't make those who are evil.
So far, by your reckoning, almost every army/armed force is evil because the threaten their members. Pretty much every business is evil because they are greedy. Police forces are also evil...
You know what, let's go with a shorter list. The people who don't fall into evil by your reasoning:
Jesus.
(Then again. According to your tyranny thing. He never did make rules about him not being able to use his powers against everything...so he's a bit on the border there.)
Long list.
Lawful Evil
These characters believe in using society and its laws to benifit themselves. Structure and organization elevate those who deserve to rule as well as provide a clearly defined hierarchy between master and servant. To this end, lawful evil characters support laws and societies that protect their own concerns. If someone is hurt or suffers because of a law that benifits lawful evil characters, too bad. Lawful evil characters obey laws out of fear of punishment. Because they may be forced to honor an unfavorable contract or oath they have made, lawful evil characters are usually very careful about giving their word. Once given, they break their word only if they can find a way to do it legally, within the laws of the society. An iron-fisted tyrant and a devious, greedy merchant are examples of lawful evil beings.
Do I really need to say more?
And personally, I know lots of people who don't threaten others or are overly greedy. Actually, personally I don't really know any people who are doing such things.
Police that just follows its orders is lawful-neutral, no matter whether the orders are "bad" or "good". Nice of you to put words into my mouth, but believe me, I can do that myself.
Just one more thing, during the Cabal era, Dark Empire was openly proclaiming itself to be lawful-evil, though ooc'ly. Still, our relations with ingame people were simply superb. In time most guilds (even the good ones) had no problem with the Empire, sometimes even agreeing to stand side by side. In fact, some people have seen us as protectors. No one organised anything against us whatsoever. Now the thing is, back then role-playing was on a much lower level than it is today. I'm interested in how your argument is exactly supposed to work.
Today there's this general opinion of quite a few Hydlaa people (not only from those who oppose DE)
- Dark Empire members either have ill intentions, or are too naive to see what Dark Empire is about.
- Many people aren't fine with the Dark Empire. Most are too afraid to stand against it.
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I don't really care that there are other ways to do things. I'm just saying that our way isn't evil. There being a few or even many merchants who aren't greedy doesn't make those who are evil.
So far, by your reckoning, almost every army/armed force is evil because the threaten their members. Pretty much every business is evil because they are greedy. Police forces are also evil...
You know what, let's go with a shorter list. The people who don't fall into evil by your reasoning:
Jesus.
(Then again. According to your tyranny thing. He never did make rules about him not being able to use his powers against everything...so he's a bit on the border there.)
Long list.
Lawful Evil
These characters believe in using society and its laws to benifit themselves. Structure and organization elevate those who deserve to rule as well as provide a clearly defined hierarchy between master and servant. To this end, lawful evil characters support laws and societies that protect their own concerns. If someone is hurt or suffers because of a law that benifits lawful evil characters, too bad. Lawful evil characters obey laws out of fear of punishment. Because they may be forced to honor an unfavorable contract or oath they have made, lawful evil characters are usually very careful about giving their word. Once given, they break their word only if they can find a way to do it legally, within the laws of the society. An iron-fisted tyrant and a devious, greedy merchant are examples of lawful evil beings.
Do I really need to say more?
And personally, I know lots of people who don't threaten others or are overly greedy. Actually, personally I don't really know any people who are doing such things.
Police that just follows its orders is lawful-neutral, no matter whether the orders are "bad" or "good". Nice of you to put words into my mouth, but believe me, I can do that myself.
Just one more thing, during the Cabal era, Dark Empire was openly proclaiming itself to be lawful-evil, though ooc'ly. Still, our relations with ingame people were simply superb. In time most guilds (even the good ones) had no problem with the Empire, sometimes even agreeing to stand side by side. In fact, some people have seen us as protectors. No one organised anything against us whatsoever. Now the thing is, back then role-playing was on a much lower level than it is today. I'm interested in how your argument is exactly supposed to work.
Today there's this general opinion of quite a few Hydlaa people (not only from those who oppose DE)
- Dark Empire members either have ill intentions, or are too naive to see what Dark Empire is about.
- Many people aren't fine with the Dark Empire. Most are too afraid to stand against it.
That's all very nice. Really is, Draky-boy. But, the thing about forums is that they have threads, see. And those threads have topics...
Need I say more.
Besides, I've very little idea what you are actually getting at. I'd be glad to discuss it more in the correct thread, of course.
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Oh, this thread was revived again?...
Anyway, just a few things about the economic faction of the Empire. We play by the rules everyone else does (which are but a few ones) and I'd like to know what is that makes us, as an organism, greedy? Pushing the gold price to 500 and, therefore, creating an instability in an economy that doesn't have any solid rules to make it stable? Having aspirations to become an organism of major importance and income in the Yliakum's economy? We have an Empire to sustain, so our aspirations are, from birth, extraordinary. We either have the willpower to aspire to become the biggest or we'll fail.
Also, other then two or three people in the Trades, there isn't anyone talking about "greedy" plans, at least not that I know of. And well, I'm not in favor of tyranny, so you won't see me dictating or violently punishing those people because of their "greedy" attitudes, oh look. The absence of one of your points is what creates another. I wonder if I should go with tyranny as it would save us from having the greedy point.
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Well, we can dump another point I guess. The History. As it doesn't correspond to present.
My point is why people could see empire as evil, not how it is in reality.
Also, pushing the price up could be considered a way to get more miners selling their goods to you. Considering Imperial Trades is a large force, you could easily carry on with it. Guilds that don't have as strong trades side might suffer much more from increased price and as such they may be forced to stay where they are. But in such situation, more people would turn their goods to the Empire and in the end Empire would earn even more, while others would become poorer :P
This is one of methods to gain monopoly. Price-alternating is usually greatly limited in many (yes) free market countries for this reason.
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The thing is many of the points you made were made because you were in the Empire. You know Sangwa started off as thief, you know the rules of the DE. Most people don't know half the things you put there, not even one third, they call the Empire evil on a name basis, yup, I quite believe that to be a fact.
On the monopoly thing, you're right. But, as I said before, there aren't any solid rules to the economy, as long as you can make a trade, pretty much everything is valid. At this time, it's more a question of the community being civic, then of the merchants ditching their natural right to try to win over competition. If the government does not protect it's people making laws and enforcing it's appliance, the people have to protect themselves. And that same people have, here, given proof of being able to protect itself, even using vandalism to do so. So I doubt any gold smelters will end up in misery anytime soon.
Edit: Woops, didn't realize this wasn't a thread about the DE, so I'll try to push this back on topic. I think that the creation of real evil guild, using the D&D definition only to make the idea pass through, would be quite nice, even if just to give people another target for their "Good driven" hate.
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Or something like that:
"...our customers expect no less of us. We have never
sought to become a monopoly. Our products are simply so good that
no one feels the need to compete with us."
Where do you want your Longsword today?
@Natrina: As I said, if I know enough people will be interested, I might be willing to create such target for the "good guys", but with a rather unique characteristic.
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Good Citizens
Or course this is just roleplaying in the game PlaneShift ! Or course references such as NATO, WARSAW PACT, etc are OOC !
Of course I do not know the secret, behind the scenes, dealings of the, nameless few ? and I don't pretend I do. But, I can
imagine, Art imitates Life. Just look at today's OOC world for an example.
However, it does seem I've hit a nerve. Dark doesn't equal Evil. Even in Roleplaying Lying, Cheating and Sealing are Evil. Some
would rather use the term Lawless, or Ruleless. Take advantage of others for our own fun, amusement and enrichment !
But, by all means, do not bring attention to us. Let's keep things behind, the scenes, hidden, secret. What they don't know,
is to our advantage !
The point of my Message should be made clear. Those lawless groups, will take any advantage that they can. They are
organized. They are planning. They will surprise us. Do nothing, bury your head in the sand. Pollyanna Lives among us.
We do not want or need to rule. We need to organize, bring the Azure Light into the Darkness, Knowledge is Power.
- OR NOT ? What say the good citizens ? -
I wonder what 'alliance of evil guilds' you're referring to. There are a few small alliances of "evil" guilds, but nothing really worthy of note. I guess it depends how you define "Evil". If anything PS needs more chaos and evil, not less. What's more, many simply won't fight. They'll laugh or taunt you in brackets and continue to do whatever it is you want them to stop as if you don't even exist.
At any rate, if you get too many good guys, then PS is just an online sewing circle. "Evil" is a catalyst. Gotta have it. ;)
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They'll laugh or taunt you in brackets and continue to do whatever it is you want them to stop as if you don't even exist.
;D Funny, very funny. that 'you' say such a thing.
~Enalyrius
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What's more, many simply won't fight. They'll laugh or taunt you in brackets and continue to do whatever it is you want them to stop as if you don't even exist.
Well, Valorius, Planeshift is not a game for player versus player, the game mechanics even don't allow this. You cannot force somebody to do a duel with you. You are known as a very powerfull and high skilled character. Nobody who is interested in roleplay and who is not as skilled as you would accept to do a duel with you. If somebody says to you in brackets (means ooc) that he won't fight with you in a duel you have to acceept this. You should not blame somebody as a coward or as bad role player if he won't fight with you.
Besides you are known as a bestial and bloodthirsty character who trains very often how to duel. So don't wonder why nobody wants to fight with you! The memory of your way to do a guild war is still in the heads of the people...
There is no need to do a duel to play an evil character!
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They'll laugh or taunt you in brackets and continue to do whatever it is you want them to stop as if you don't even exist.
I was lucky enough (or maybe avoiding CBers in general has its benefits) to have no confrontation with your character. I did however see some of her actions and I have to say, by all means, RP-wise she should be simply ignored. Your character is notorious for breaking laws of Yliakum, in the very middle of a large town.
Either what you do on the plaza is mere dueling; in which case people can ignore you all they want. If they don't want to accept, they don't need to.
Also: dueling in towns is a crime.
Or it's an open assault. In that case while a character wouldn't have choice other than to fight, if you happen to kill that character... here are some fun facts:
You're standing in the middle of a large town.
You just commited a crime, for which punishment (if notorious) may be even a permanent death.
Allow me to simplify:
Either the characters you challenge have all the RP right to ignore you, or your character should be non-existant by now.
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Ooh! Ooh! Am I missing out on some flame wars? This should be interesting...
Draklar's right, though...
I also agree with something Zanzibar said at the very beginning of the thread. Something along the lines that PS's politics are more complicated than just good vs. evil. That's so true... Everyone seems to think that the only response to the inundation of good guilds is to begin to create "evil" guilds. Usually they're just pathetic. I strongly suggest looking into other alternatives than outright evil, they prove to be so much more interesting for all involved.
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Ooh! Ooh! Am I missing out on some flame wars? This should be interesting...
From my experience in these forums, I can asure you something you definitively already know: it won't take too much time for you to see another one.
Draklar's right, though...
I also agree with something Zanzibar said at the very beginning of the thread. Something along the lines that PS's politics are more complicated than just good vs. evil. That's so true... Everyone seems to think that the only response to the inundation of good guilds is to begin to create "evil" guilds. Usually they're just pathetic. I strongly suggest looking into other alternatives than outright evil, they prove to be so much more interesting for all involved.
There is no simple definition of evil in a Brave New World, too bad it isn't medieval enough, although, depending on the possibilities given by mind control magics(and perhaps alchemy and Lah'ar), a fantasy-like "failed utopia"-like town might be possible somewhere in the stone labyrinths. We really have to wait for certain areas(Stone Labyrinths and DR mainly) and new features before more space opens for conflicts that go beyond silly PvP 1 vs. 1 combat and for "evil" guilds to have some significant and justifiable power, conflicts that involve more than physical combat and require much more than brute force(powerlevelled characters) are yet to come.
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There are a few small alliances of "evil" guilds, but nothing really worthy of note.
This should be changed to: "I don't know of any notable evil alliances."
What's more, many simply won't fight.
For good reason. Many people won't fight you in particular due to your well-earned reputation.
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Funny you say that, Valorius. Some guilds have been threatening the Dark Empire lately, as I heard. Of course the Empire doesn't want to fight them. These guilds have called the Empire "Weak and cowardly", the only reason the Empire won't fight these guilds is their bad roleplay however. Besides, a roleplaying guild versus a powerleveller guild isn't really fair.
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Funny you say that, Valorius. Some guilds have been threatening the Dark Empire lately, as I heard. Of course the Empire doesn't want to fight them. These guilds have called the Empire "Weak and cowardly", the only reason the Empire won't fight these guilds is their bad roleplay however. Besides, a roleplaying guild versus a powerleveller guild isn't really fair.
Yeah. People like [not going to say it] will shout such things at anyone who declines a duel invite. Individuals like such individual then bully their guild and friends and allies into doing the same. It's harassment.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: These people are hurting the game and its community and they should be made to leave if they don't clean up their act.