PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: bilbous on June 08, 2007, 07:26:36 pm
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Hopefully this is a valid topic for discussion but if it is considered spoiler feel free to delete without notice.
What should you sell gold ore for? Does it seem like the buyers of ore are taking advantage of the sellers? A fairly standard price for ore is 400 tria/ore, the NPC's will pay 240t/o. This means the buyers are offering a premium of 160 t/o. Sounds pretty good right? I do not think so. Let's examine this more carefully. In order to come up with a fair price we must look at several things. Division of labor and value increase are the two main ones I will deal with. Smelting a pack full of gold, 40 for example, takes about 15 minutes while digging it will take anything from an hour on up, usually more. What about the value increase? In pure dollar terms the smelters seem to have the upper hand here, the miner increases his value 240 t/o from 0 to 240 wheras the smelter increases the value from there to ~860 or 620 t/o. Let me know if this number is off, and I'll fix it, it should be close AFAIK. Not bad return for 15 minutes work.
Personally I think a fair division would be straight up the middle, 860+240=1100, 1100/2=5500.
As far as I am concerned an offer of 400 is just greed and should be rebuffed. It may take the miner longer to get rich by selling to NPC's but at least the money is going out of the economy and not making someone else undue profit. If everyone followed this advice the smelters would have to mine their own ore and earn their value increase.
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The time needed to mine requires on ones mining skill and knowledge of the good mining spots so it's hard to generalize.
Personally I'd say it's a free market though so people decide how much they sell and buy for themselves. If you think the price is unfair then I suggest you start buying gold ores at higher prices ... but be warned, Donari tried this and got some nasty jealous backlash from the mining and smelting community. :P Not all miners can melt gold, those who can and still sell their gold are fools ... and not all melters are interested in spending their days mining.
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@Bilbous: Fair division? Yliakum isn't a socialist utopia, so this is something that will not be common, surplus value always is an interesting prospect to look for, and it's a known fact, specially nowadays, that industrialized, manufactured or crafted products have much more worth than the feedstock used on their production. Use of specialized skills or technology on a product has a significant effect on its value. If the miners are being underpaid, then they should form some kind of Union, or join one.
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Smelting is skilled labor, mining is unskilled labor. If you want to make what metallurgists make train metallurgy.
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Smelting is skilled labor, mining is unskilled labor. If you want to make what metallurgists make train metallurgy.
Same goes for mining :-\
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Smelting a pack full of gold, 40 for example, takes about 15 minutes while digging it will take anything from an hour on up, usually more.
Yes, but what you are forgetting is that in order to smelt gold you have to spend a large quantity of time and trias in order to progress to the level of skill it takes to smelt gold. It is not a one or two day task. It involves a lot of progress points and time. So to say it takes only 15 minutes to process the gold is true, but it took a heck of a long time to get to that ability. It is like in real life, your Med.School trained surgeon makes all the money even if the assistant is doing more work. There is a premium for knowledge and learned skill. So it is fair.
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I'm a miner, for now. At this moment I'm not training met, but I will eventually. I really don't mind the 400 i get per gold ore, hey man it's a lot better then the 240 from an npc :thumbup: Also, alot of the ppl that have a high met training is because they have been playing for quite some time. So chances are that they've had to 'only' sell to npcs in the past. If you ask me I think us miners of todays PS are pretty lucky to be getting that 400 trias, I think it's really nice that the high leveled MET ppl of our community see it fit to give us lower level players a break. If they choose to bring it down to 350 they want to buy the gold for I would still be happy with that. Why? Because it's still alot better then 240. Either way, I see it as a break for us miners. I would be pretty upset if all of a sudden one day all the MET players decided just not to buy gold from us and go mine it themselves. What a sad day that would be :(
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I had 45 gold ore yesterday in Oja and tried to negotiate a better price somewhat successfully but in the end I just sold my gold to the NPC. Did I lose out? no I received the baseline value of my gold. Did the potential customer lose out? no, she already had a pack full of gold and got the full value for smelting it. We each could have gotten more but didn't because I was not skilfull enough of a negotiator to even get 500 t/o. I could have stuck around and made more of an effort but I had some stocks I wanted to go practice with and I am kind of impulsive. I am positive I could have gotten a better deal from a different buyer.
As it is now the smelters are overcrowded with gold smelters who are solely in it for the cash value and this makes it more difficult for those who wish to train or actually make stuff. It would be nice if each area had its own smithy i.e. one in the fortress and one in the winch but the devs have not seen fit to do so, so overcrowding has become a problem. On in the BD region would certainly go far to alleviate the crowding and might possibly be restricted to those with sufficient factional points. Actually I think usage restrictions via factional points might be a very good idea, and encourage doing the quests. They could open up an area behind Zak and in the room near the dark rogues for those characters with a less honest bent, put one in the winch for those of a mercantile bent and leave the remaining two with perhaps one in the fortress proper for those with a pro-government alignment.
Another idea might be to enforce time rental whereby you have to pay the owner of the equipment to use it and the fee for smelting gold would be considerably higher than the fee for less valuable ores.
Anyway I did not expect to see smelters agree with my initial post greedy people can always justify their greed, just as poor people bemoan their powerlessness. I do not think I will be lining anyone else's pockets unless I get a fairer portion of the take and I urge other miners to do the same though I doubt many will have the same resolve (if I even do).
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The overcrowding of the furnaces is becoming a serious problem indeed ... the best solution for this is to give practical experience based on the number of stock in a single stack instead of equalizing a stack to a single stock. I'm certain the devs are aware of this bug and hopefully it'll be fixed soon so people can load their stacks into the furnaces.
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Hmm, gold ingots sell for 608 trias (which mean 208 profit for the smelter) or am I missing something?
Anyway, Donari, once she joined the Imperial Trades, tried to raise the price to 500 trias as mentioned before. This resulted in the general community doing acts of vandalism (such as putting garbage in the furnace to stop us from smelting), hating us and doing threats of boycotting (and doing bad publicity of) our steel business. So, I agree, the gold smelters are, even if just for their agenda on keeping the 400 price at all costs, being unfair (a funny demonstration of how economic interests bring a community together). I doubt you'll have much luck in getting the 500 trias price. Either the seller already has such conviction and will put himself through the pains of "defying" the gold smelters, or most of them will simply wait for some other miner to show up and buy his ores. Nevertheless, good luck on that.
On the furnaces case, I agree, we could use another economic center, off Ojaveda and Hydlaa.
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Another thing that is a little odd and correct me if I am wrong here too, is that by and large the base price per ingot is higher than the price per stock so the bold smelters use up more slots because they have no incentive to make stocks.
hmm 608? perhaps it is not so unfair as I imagined. That would make a fair price 414 by my previous algorithm.
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Ok, let me get this straight. You're using the term "unfair" to try and determine what prices something should be sold at?
Ha.
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Well considering the whole thing as being without danger, the gold economy is not fair to those who risk death to make a living. Of course nobody ever said the world was fair. Then again as far as I know gold is useless so should have no value at all at the moment. Here is an idea (rhetorical), make the npc's only buy stuff that can be used and base the price on the relative merits of that use and what the supply is. Hey, here is another idea (also rhetorical) let's have open pvp and see how much money the smelters can make with an ax in their head. My point is that the whole system is artificial and could be more realistically designed. I am sure it is temporary and things will get better eventually.
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When the gold rush took off prices for ore were in flux and finally seemed to have settled down where they are. Why? because most miners seem to feel that is a fair price and most smelters seem to feel it is a fair price. Most miners seem to want to unload their ore as quickly as possible to get back to the mines. On occasion I see miners dropping the price hoping to get someone to buy their load quickly instead of standing around waiting to find a buyer willing to pay a higher price.
I mine and smelt my own gold ore when I need tria so I don't have a vested interest in the price of gold ore other than the impact it has on people willing to mine ore and create steel at an affordable price.
But if I did decide to buy ore I would have to look at the time and effort involved as the price goes up. If I dig 10 ore and smelt it myself I make 6080 trias. If I buy it at 400 then I have to smelt 29 ore. If I buy it for 500 I have to smelt 61 ore. If I'm able to mine 30 ore in one trip to the mines I make 18240 tria or I have to smelt 183 ore bought at 500 tria apiece. I prefer the trip to the mine.
The only way for miners to get the higher price is a union that no other miner is willing to buck. But at that point most of your smelters may just start to mine their own ore.
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Just curious, what is the difference in the time factor between going to the mine for your 10 gold and buying 30 at the forge to make the equivalent profit? I suspect it would be at least 30 minutes of real time. Now what is the difference in time between digging a full load at the mine and transporting it to the forge with buying a full load at the forge? I suspect that buying at the forge, even at 500 would be more profitable in the same time than mining your own, although I do now agree that is somewhat higher than is absolutely reasonable. It is the digging that consumes the most time because it is one at a time and not always successful.
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Question on this same topic.
I don't know if anyone else noticed, but there are furnaces in the arena is there not? You know...up by Veja. Why aren't they 'useable'? I don't understand, she's a smith and has all the 'stuff' needed to melt and so on near her. I just think it would make sense to open up that area for ppl to use. Err or is that in the works? ::|
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Ok, let me get this straight. You're using the term "unfair" to try and determine what prices something should be sold at?
Ha.
Uh, I'll suppose you're referring to Bilbous.
Bilbous, if gold ingots and stock work in the same way silver ones do, gold stock shouldn't indeed make up for the effort of smelting it.
In the end, gold isn't as rare as it in theory should be to make it have any value and it's useless in any other sense then straight selling. But PlaneShift's economy, at least in this point, seems to be made in order to fulfill the needs of individuals instead of creating a relatively realistic economic environment.
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I think it tends to favor the early adopters because they tend to find the bugs and balance issues that need to be dealt with, training metallurgy used to be much easier because more things gave you practice.
As for the stocks issue, last time I looked (not recently and not for precious metals at all) 10 ingots was worth more than one stock of the same material and that is just counter-productive.
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Just curious, what is the difference in the time factor between going to the mine for your 10 gold and buying 30 at the forge to make the equivalent profit? I suspect it would be at least 30 minutes of real time. Now what is the difference in time between digging a full load at the mine and transporting it to the forge with buying a full load at the forge? I suspect that buying at the forge, even at 500 would be more profitable in the same time than mining your own, although I do now agree that is somewhat higher than is absolutely reasonable. It is the digging that consumes the most time because it is one at a time and not always successful.
It really is economy of scale. The distance involved in travel to the mine is fixed and will always use the same amount of time. The time it takes to dig 30 ore is really not that much more than 10 depending on experience and knowing where to dig (though I know people will have differing opinions on this). So I agree that a trip to the mine for 10 ore isn't worth it. One trip to the mine for 30 ore is a different story. The added bonus of going to the mine is meeting people on the road and maybe saving a few people from ulbers on the way.
Having another furnace aound would be a big help. Maybe Harnquist has made enough gold now to afford expanding his place.
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It is really odd, the new gold mine is easier to mine than the old one and both are far easier to mine than silver. I've tried both the silver mines I know and if I average 1 ore in 6 tries I'm having a good day whereas the new goldmine if I am averaging 1 ore in two tries I'm having a bad day. Add to that silver ingots are less valuable than gold ore and it does not seem to make much sense. I think it would be better to increase the value of silver and make it more readily available and decrease the value of gold somewhat. And is it my imagination or did they increase the level to smelt silver to match gold? What is the point of that when silver is already not worth mining?
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The new gold mine is easier to mine because the old one is depleted and you can smelt silver from level 10 on. By the way, you assume you only have to flick your fingers and a miner appears to sell you gold. In my experience getting enough ores from a miner takes a very long time. By walking to the gold mine myself and mining there myself I make more money then when I would buy it from a miner. The gold price is just too high and the supply is too low.
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Fair enough and I do tend to speak in ideal terms, it just seems that whenever I am near Harnquist there are two or three people trying to hawk their gold. Certainly there are times of the day when it is just that easy. Perhaps the smelting is too easy as well. It would seem to me that iron, steel and bronze can have more impurities left in them but that precious metals are held to a stricter standard by the market and so might be required to be smelted 2-3 times before they reach their full value.
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Going off the settings, we should assume that Trasok can smelt gold, yet he pays for 240 tria per ore.
Therefore, the going rate for gold ore is 240 tria... not 400 and certainly not 500.
The rate smelters offer... is higher than the standard going rate, and is therefore fair.
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Wow. Yes, 400 per gold is standard rate.
look at gas prices, for pete's sake. $3 a gallon? thats ridiculous.
so, i blame the gas for the gold prices. :D
just for the record, i sell all of my gold i mine at 380 /piece.
Heh...
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I am not a libertarian(on the US meaning of the word), but I have something to suggest: throw a proverbial "Ayn Rand" in the market of Yliakum - remove all the NPC merchants with fixed prices(Read: OOC Planned Economy), develop a very good batch of gold-based weapons or equipment with clear value alongside crafting support for all metals, lootable animal parts, etc(including rat parts of course), then let the players determine the final prices of everything through supply and demand among other factors. This will surely heat up things and solve this problem from once to all, or perhaps worsen it, who knows? Predicting a completely free market from devs intervention on a virtual economy might bring several results. But it is more interesting than having the end of most commodities as "vanishing" in the hands of NPCs who buy them always for the same prices.
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Ok, let me get this straight. You're using the term "unfair" to try and determine what prices something should be sold at?
Ha.
Uh, I'll suppose you're referring to Bilbous.
I'm referring to anyone who does what I described. No reason to single someone out when the same concept would be applied to anyone who says the same thing.
I mean...
eh
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Under those circumstances, a "fair price" is usually considered to be one where neither buyer nor seller are completely satisfied but both did well enough to claim victory.
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The miners are happy, the smelters are happy, I don't see a problem. Last time I checked the gold mine ulbers weren't aggro, so that's not a problem. If gold was being sold for more than 400 I wouldn't buy it though. If all the miners decided to sell it for more I'd go mine it myself, and I think most metallurgists would as well, as it'd be more profitable that way. All that means is that the miners who don't have the metallurgy skill have to sell it to Harnquist for 240...
The prices of gold have changed over time. Started at 300ea, I used to pay miners 400 so long as they always came to me first when they had a load of gold. Then when gold got harder to mine it went up to 350, and eventually to 400. People have tried to sell it for more, but it's never quite gotten past 400 for a reason. This is where the market has settled, and it's done so for a reason.
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Lets think about this...When I buy an ore at 400...and sell it to an NPC for 608..then I only make a 208 profit...whereas if I mined it myelf and sell to an NPC..I make a 240 profit...sounds to me like it's the miner making out here to me..let alone..the miner also can get minning practice points which ,ofocurse, helps to level up his skill..so if minning and selling to another player gets the miner 400 tria and minning practice points...then to me the miner makes out just as well or better than the buyer. Maybe I'm wrong to some..but thats my option ;)
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Me and a friend were talking in game. He has high MET and I don't. Anyways, it got us thinking. It
would make sense to charge 400 or even 500 for, drum role please...For Iron and Coal. Why not?
It's what's used the most and therefore has a higher value then gold. But in order to do something like that, the entire enconomy would have to be stripped and redone. However, the only problem with this is that Iron and Coal are harder to mine then gold. So it would be worth the time and effort, but we might be having this same debate about Iron and coal later on. Whether if the price of selling it should be raised or not, do to the fact that it's harder to mine and so on. I think this 'problem' will be a never ending story.
So I say, for now we should really be happy with what we are getting from the MET ppl for gold. Because really if you think about it, gold isn't worth all that much. The reason for it being so important right now is an issue that will more then likely be resolved soon. Maybe with the new client gold won't be a major factor in money making. Maybe, just maybe it will end up being iron and coal. Or maybe, there will be a better use for gold? Who knows. Either way I think this 'debate' is kind of pointless. We are really so fortunate to be able to sell our gold to higher ranked players and not just the npcs, and we are bikkering about it? So what if they make a little bit more profit? Is it not by now something they have earned? If not their right as seniors players or non stop players? I say Kudos to the wonderful ppl who have given me 400 for my gold. It's made my life a hell of a lot easier!
I mean if we are going to talk about this, then why not about the high prices of items being sold in auction channel? Isn't it their right though? Of corse it is. Just like the gold issue...same crap different pile!
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to charge 400 or even 500 for, drum role please...For Iron and Coal.
Hmm, you realize what this would do to the price of stock, right? If you'd pay 500 trias for each you'd end up with a stock being worth at least 5.000 trias (add the metallurgist's work...), which is about the double of the prices practiced today. But the problem is, I think, that hand crafted weapons don't still consist a solid business (correct me if I'm wrong, do they actually sell and for how much?) and they were "damaged" (rightfully) by the new change in the quality (which makes that a crafter must be much more experienced to reach higher quality), which makes gold ingot selling a much better business, at least for those which aren't that skilled in weapon making.
Anyway, this discussion was based on a lack of information. Bilbous thought gold sold for a higher price and he has more then the right to be wrong about it - he's [seems to be] a miner, not a smelter. Doubt taken, main problem solved. Also, Bilbous, if gold is like silver, a stock is worth (in terms of material to make) 5 ingots against our usual 10. The idea of stock is to craft armor (it seems to me that both silver and gold can only be crafted into armor, or their description is incomplete) and that is to craft armor that is even worst in practical use then those crafted with steel as gold and silver are "soft".
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Yes, the smelters are definitly greedy. Even if a beggar demands the insane amount of 250 tria, he is greedy. A bread costs 1 tria, so he has more then enough to live for about half a year. If the smelters gain 208 tria per ore they melt, they have more then enough for the rest of their lives after a day of work.
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Yes, the smelters are definitly greedy. Even if a beggar demands the insane amount of 250 tria, he is greedy. A bread costs 1 tria, so he has more then enough to live for about half a year. If the smelters gain 208 tria per ore they melt, they have more then enough for the rest of their lives after a day of work.
Aah (correct me if I'm wrong) But then you are greedy to, sell weapons and other stuff for way to high a prices. no? ;)
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I am not greedy, since this discussion here is OOC. However, Donari is.
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What did they say..."Greed is good" Some (a small amout) of greed is good... drives amibtion, desire, etc... To much greed is however another story. ;D . I am not which catergory (greedy or not) I fall into as I mostly mine and smelt my own... that might change as the needs changes...
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I am not greedy, since this discussion here is OOC. However, Donari is.
Aaah, But how do you view the Smelters then? IC or OOC? in which view you choose i was talking about you ;)
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This is going nowhere.. the fact of the matter is wiether or not the smealters are greedy? yes. Are they greedy cuz they demand 400 per ore? Hell no. Fact of the matter is.. is base price is 240 from npc. Smelters buy at 400.. thats a 160 increase from npc base price. Each ingot sells for 608. So. 608-400=208 profit. So, if the miners make 20k from thier day, the smealters will make only 10k.. Smealters make LESS profit then. If anything, if you want "fairness" the price should be lowered to 304 per ore so that BOTH parties make the SAME profit.
As for balance of supply and demand.. LOL.. forget it. Gold would be worth as much as iron if PS worked that way, but it doesnt. Silver should be werth more IC as its better to work with, "rarer" and so on.. but no.. LOL.. anyway.. /end topic.
Smelters arnt greedy just cuz they demand to pay 400 and no more, if anything its the miners that are greedy for wanting MORE money. :P But in all actuallity, both parties are greedy :P hehe
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If the smelters gain 208 tria per ore they melt, they have more then enough for the rest of their lives after a day of work.
not quite. Live is expensive, especially if you want to train. Now you might say training isn't necessary, but I want my char to learn magic, which is, by the way, most expensive to train. For 200 trias, you can't learn much...not to speak of buying glyphs...
But PlaneShift is still :beta:, and if you consider that, I think it's doing well :thumbup: \\o//
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Each ingot sells for 608. So. 608-400=208 profit. So, if the miners make 20k from thier day, the smealters will make only 10k.. Smealters make LESS profit then. If anything, if you want "fairness" the price should be lowered to 304 per ore so that BOTH parties make the SAME profit.
I don't think you understand. There's a difference between mining and smelting and that is mostly why miners get more: there's transport and failure (which depends in the miners on skill and the same in smelters but, smelting is a random number that isn't bigger that, let's say, 5% of the time) that sums up to it taking more effort for the miners then that of the smelters who have simply to buy and smelt it, even with the problems in getting space in the furnace, the amount of effort is not the same.
In the end, I don't really care what is proven here, but what I see is that the price is 400 and will remain 400 until some change in the game system happens, which, hey, can happen pretty soon depending on when the 019 will be released.
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IA realistic market model is something that is still really far, far away. With weapons being sold for prices higher than the one of a trained pterosaur... Once it becomes encouraged to follow around the table on this page (http://www.planeshift.it/economy.html) by game mechanics, things will be more realistic. For now... I already witnessed pan flutes being sold for 1 million(AHEM, I don't need to tell who did it) and even worser cases. Of course this also something that is the fault of an OOC reaction to the game economy from the players. For example my characters rarely agree with many of the currently established prices for things, as many of them are based on the rarity of the loot coming from mobs that nobody else can craft in the whole world, something that is 100% OOC as well, if you take a look at it.
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Nice discussion, but I didn't see were anyone stated exactly how many hours of boring moving stock and molten steel between the furnace and stock caster it takes to get to metallurgy level 20. I figure it took me about 2 hours a night for each level of metallurgy after about level 5. If you wish to figure the true value you have to come up with a total measure of time and cost, for example, it's no point to train metallurgy to level 20 to melt 100 gold ore, that much is obvious, but where is the breaking point versus just mining gold for that many hours and selling it. Assume it took me 30 hours to train metallugry to level 20, how much gold ore could I have mined in that time and transported to Harnquist and sold for 400 each, and you also have to take into account the fortune the smelter paid to train to level 20 and the fact that you used to have to train at Trasok's but all the gold was near Harnquist, that is you paid Trasok's trias to train metallurgy but then you had to mine gold ore to get more trias and back then there were few gold buyers if any and the price was 350 when there was a buyer. And the gold mine was the one at the magic shop, slightly better then it is now but not much depending on the eaxct spot you tried to mine and your luck.
In addition, not that many people wish to spend their game time standing around waiting for some miner to come around selling their gold. I've often got caught up in the sprit of buying gold, using it to train a bit more metalurgy instead of shuffling steel stock around, and then selling the ingots to Harnquist. But at the end of the night I relaize I could have been doing any number of things that are more fun. The devs had a great idea of mixing Ulbernuats and gold mines, gold mining got a lot more interesting after that from my point of view.
Some people had a better training system figured out and had the fortune of being able to play when most of us were dealing with the real world. I always thought mining was boring till I tried learning metallurgy, then I thought learning metallurgy was boring till I tried learning weapon making, with every increase in level I still made blades of the same or worse quality. In fact for each increase in metallurgy skill I still make steel stock of the same or worse quality then I used to.
The devs have managed to create a stable economy with regards to the buying and selling of gold ore with no more then about 200 people in game at any one time. That is truly amazing. Gold mining used to be a lot harder, but then again skill levels used to top out a lot lower. There are a lot of things that need to balance in the game for this one part of the economy to work.
The only things that disappoints me is that they took existing good weapons and made them nearly useless by giving them qualities less then a dozen other weapons. I still haven't found the balance in that, as it was once weapon wear and tear was working old weapons gradually lost value.
In addition, whether they knew it or not many of the smelters actually risked physical injury in the real world from such repeatative movement with the mouse in order to reach level 20, many friends complained about the pain not knowing the risks are more serious then they imagined. Mining need to be no more the touching the keyboard every fifteen seconds while exercising or watching TV. The repeatative movement of smelting is nearly as bad if you decide to stick around the furnace and buy gold and cast one ingot at a time.
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Raleigh, I more then agree with you there. Prices are totally off settings, but when things are more solid and a wipe comes up it'll, as you said, normalize. You can't blame people for selling things are ridiculous high prices though, the only thing the Government says is we can't do high prices in time of crises and, as it seems, Yliakum is currently in high prosperity :P.
In addition, whether they knew it or not many of the smelters actually risked physical injury in the real world from such repeatative movement with the mouse in order to reach level 20, many friends complained about the pain not knowing the risks are more serious then they imagined.
Ah ha.. I'll have to agree with that to some point, but it only hurts when the game (because of the computer) starts to slow down, forcing you to force the movement. That is an OOC reason, though I agree maybe the devs should try to do something about it - maybe what someone else said already, making experience be gained when stacking, which would save a lot of slots and a lot of wrists.
On your first point, though, I think training mining is as hard as training smelting. Yes, you need some material for smelting training and in mining you only have to, well, be in a mine, but I can't quite say it took me longer to reach level 20 in mining then it did with smelting. After you have a lot of material you can just reuse it, keep in mind it also depends on the material you use, some are quicker then others. In the end, I get the idea. In real life I suppose a miner wouldn't get as much money as a smelter would.
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Smelting a pack full of gold, 40 for example, takes about 15 minutes while digging it will take anything from an hour on up, usually more.
Yes, but what you are forgetting is that in order to smelt gold you have to spend a large quantity of time and trias in order to progress to the level of skill it takes to smelt gold. It is not a one or two day task. It involves a lot of progress points and time. So to say it takes only 15 minutes to process the gold is true, but it took a heck of a long time to get to that ability. It is like in real life, your Med.School trained surgeon makes all the money even if the assistant is doing more work. There is a premium for knowledge and learned skill. So it is fair.
Hehe, actually mettalurgy takes about two days to max out, mining takes far more time :P.
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Speaking of armor, when will we be able to make or own? :thumbup:
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Surely if you are interested in a skill, or have a vocation for it then what you earn for it is purely down to luck (considering what job you go for), so if someone is out for money, then they don't go for a low income skill, they spend their time progressing in something more lucrative, both ways, there is no slave labour and nobody is being forced to do anything, if someone is greedy, then they are greedy, what does it matter?
Isn't it more interesting that these divisions that have arrisen in the game in some way mimic how people see each other in society? someone has already made the medic comparrison I notice.