PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: bilbous on June 23, 2007, 07:50:33 pm
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Does anyone else think that eating food and drink should more logically improve stamina rather than hit points? When you are working up a real sweat, stopping to rest will help you rekindle your energy and having a bite to eat and something to drink will add more but it won't magically close blisters or heal wounds. For those things you would apply first aid and take medicine.
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But rrrememberrr, medicine, not even in RrrrL help right away. A 'fix' to put in medic panks like FPS shooterrrrs mostly have that heal you rrrrright away arrre as unrrrreal as food that heals (rrright away).
The only thing that is rrreasonable to explain that it could cure diseases/cure wounds rrrright away is, of courrrse, Magic.
methinks ;)
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Hmm, I think food should give Hit Points and drinks should give Stamina. If you don't have enough nutrients and the good stuff from food you can't be healthy. And yeah, you also can't without water, but I think drinks are more related to stamina and food more to hit points... just my view anyway.
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hit points are not about health ;) Hit points are about energy and ability you have to fight.
If you fell from a height, you are in pain, you fight worse, but it is passing, your HP go up.
Food do increase HP, as it recover your strenghts <--- here answere to your post Natrina
HP are even about illness, being Ill you won't fight good and so you have less strenghts, so your HP reach zero faster, coz there are less of them. But to restore the level of HP to their normal, you need to stop being ill, what isn't so easy as with overcoming pain after a while. It should take time. At least it's how i imagine it.
Think of HP as health makes no sense. How do your wond recover in real? Days or months (whoever trying to comment, keep in mind PS day is shorter, but your char doesnt live faster, there is no argument for that). In PS the HP bar is rising fast. There is no Health bar, if there were, it would probably keep the hp bar decreased until you recover (see lenght of recovering in real life)
The potion of healing is increasing HP bar, but it doesnt heal you, but recover your strenghts, what explain how it is possible, it works so fast.
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Umm what happens to you if your hit points reach 0? contrast that with what happens when your mental and physical stamina reach 0. Hit points are your health, it is an abstract representation certainly and characters in the PS world all are regenerative in nature... must be something to do with the crystal, if you need an in context explaination... but you cannot do anything when your hit points reach 0 except spawn by the death guardian -- with full hit points no less! There are no injuries, there is only damage.
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its obvious that when HP reach 0 you are n longer able to defend yourself and are crytically hit.Your not visualised health in binary form (1 or 0) drop to 0 and ouy die.
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hhmmm yes if I fall down from a tower I'm to tired to land on my feet and that is why I die. That really makes sence....... ::)
Also why would I get more tired fom getting hit then from hitting myself? The HP goes down because when you get hit you are wounded so HP represents your health obviously. Not the least seeing HP stands for Health Points and not Hitpoints in many games ;)
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hhmmm yes if I fall down from a tower I'm to tired to land on my feet and that is why I die. That really makes sence....... ::)
HP drop to zero, because your health must be obviously zero, there is no reason for your HP to be differen't, while you are dead.
Why won't you try to look sense in the fact, that HP regenerate so fast, if you argue they are health?
Also why would I get more tired fom getting hit then from hitting myself? The HP goes down because when you get hit you are wounded so HP represents your health obviously.
For swinging blows you have stamina. Didn't you see it decrease wen you does it? If you swing too much, your stamina drops too 0 and you can't fight efectively, in consequence your HP will drop faster.
You are not getting hit. It's stupid we are get hit, while in real 1-2 such hits are lethal. You evade blows good enough for them not to lethally wound you.
Not the least seeing HP stands for Health Points and not Hitpoints in many games ;)
Did you see them to care about any logic in a fight, besids it looking cool? I did not, because it is obviously not their objective, so i have no idea how you can give them as example.
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Hmmm. I wasn't trying to come up with a discussion about the definition of HP in PlaneShift. And I think we can go around it and touch all the definitions we can find but it in the end depends solely on the devs, so let's leave the definition to them (or is there something official already?). My point was that HP, that comes down to be your body's status (it's strength, it's health, it's damage capacity), was more directly affected by hunger (read: lack of nutrition, which makes the body weaker), while the lack of water would inflict more rapidly in your stamina, being able to cause you to pass out (which doesn't happen in PlaneShift, but should. Arcanum had a nice system of when stamina [which was MP] reached zero your chara passed out and remained in the ground until his MP reached positive values again).
Anyway, my point is everything less solid. The lack of sugar, for example, also causes people to pass out, as well as water shortage is quite quicker to kill a person (weeks? while food shortage takes months to kill). Oh well, let the discussion continue.
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Food in this way... I'm all go for it.
At the start your dfferent body status bars would be just decreased and then if it worked out and people realised they really need to eat, devs could introduce passing out, if you don't care about eating. As about water. Each food contains water, so eatng/drinking would be one and the same. Unless you want everything what one can drink or eat has two values: amount of food and amount of water.
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I don't have the time to read all replies right away but comsuming food making an individual less tired ... well that doesn't make much sense.
Like Nikodemus said HP is a representation of general health. Eating and drinking can improve general health, it cannot remove fatigue .. unless you're drinking caffeinated products :P
Ideally I'd like a system where our characters have additional 'hunger' and 'thirst' bars. Forcing us to eat and drink regularly or experience a decrease in HP over time. The hunger and thirst bar will decrease slowly over time and can only be replenished by eating and drinking. If they run out, they'll make sure your health bar decreases over time .. eventually leading to death by dehydration or starvation.
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Like Nikodemus said HP is a representation of general health. Eating and drinking can improve general health, it cannot remove fatigue .. unless you're drinking caffeinated products :P
That's nice, but i meant something opposite ;P Unless i don't know what you define by "general health"
And when you don't eat, you are tired. Somehow i fell it's what you meant
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Whether it's food or drinks, it makes sense to improve both, health and stamina, as long as the food and drinks themselves are healthy.
This is normal. Haven't you seen athletes exercise? They need both to keep up the energy levels. If they get injured, proper food (or supplements) with a good amount of vitamins can help with faster recovery time. The energy recovery is more of a short-term effect, while health recovery is more of a long-term effect but both are affected.
Also, take a look at the PlaneShift guide here:
http://www.planeshift.it/guide/en/guide-stats.html
2.5.3. Hit Points
Hit Points are calculated with a formula that involves strength, agility and endurance - endurance being the greatest factor. A character can increase his or her Hit Points by training in the skill of Body Development.
Let's see what "Body Development" description is:
http://www.planeshift.it/guide/en/guide-skills.html#guide-skills-training
Body Development
Determines the health of your body and provides you with more Hit Points. Whenever you train this skill you spend time to work out and to enhance your health.
So, you see that both can affect HP greatly.
I don't think food and drinks should have a major instant effect in the game anyway. Picture eating a sandwich while in an intense battle. Fast HP and MP recovery should be left to magic potions or magical items/gear with regenerative properties. Unless, of course, it's a magic sandwich, which eats itself for you. 8)
Pretty easy to figure out.
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I have to agree with Nikodemus.
I had a similar problem in a p&p game I'm playing, where the "Hit Points" couldn't logically represent health.
I simply came to conclusion those stand for vitality. Same in PS. I don't think you could survive sword slashing directly at your head. Instead you can assume thanks to vitality reserves, your character had enough energy to get away from the attack "just a little bit", as a result receiving only minor jab, instead of a skull-crack. Once your vitality goes down, you no longer have the energy to avoid such blows and the opponent simply finishes you off.
Another thing it explains is why better sword skill gives you better damage. If you hit, you hit, right? Damage should simply depend on the strength. But with better sword skill, it would be harder to avoid direct jabs.
Falling from heights also. At some heights it doesn't matter how much vitality you have, you'll simply die. But in other cases having enough vitality may allow you to make the jump a little bit more controlled.
But I think that's looking for logic in place where there is none :)
Edit: One more thing. Stamina going up through drinking and eating is kind of dodgy. It could just as well represent muscles burning out oxygen. And if that's the case, then eating and drinking won't help much.
Either way the "Weakness" spell shows Hit Points aren't really all about health.
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Like Nikodemus said HP is a representation of general health. Eating and drinking can improve general health, it cannot remove fatigue .. unless you're drinking caffeinated products :P
That's nice, but i meant something opposite ;P Unless i don't know what you define by "general health"
And when you don't eat, you are tired. Somehow i fell it's what you meant
Like I said .. had little time to read through the replies so I just glanced at yours quickly. What I mean with general health is our condition. Our health points being at 100% means that the character is perfectly healthy. 0% means he's dead ... anything in between there can point to him being wounded, crippled or just generally ill.
Food has two effects, a long term and short term one ... in the short term it only 'cures' the feeling of hunger or thirst. But it won't make us feel healtier or less tired, in the contrary .. the energy needed for digesting a meal makes us more tired, right after eating it. Of course in the long run it keeps us healthy ... that's why I think a system where not consuming food should be bad for a character's HP, instead of where eating food rewards a character, is more realistic.
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Hmm, I agree with Zan. Better would be to add another bar and have it have negative effects when close to zero, I doubt that'll happen though, it seems easier to discuss on the effect of items than to add new elements to the system :P.
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No need for any new bars. When yo are hungry, part of all you bars become red, darker, desaturated, whatever and this means they wont restore higher into that area, unless you eat. The more hungry, the bigger they are.
Same about sickness
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@Nikodemus
I don't think it's logical the way health is represented although I disagree with blows needing to be deadly. In duels anyone with some training can infact already kill in one if not two blows.
Personally I would rather it not be health becuase things like lifeinfusion makes roleplaying wounds a little to easy to heal, but if it's not health how do you explain people are able to fight 100% again with a wound? Is it realistic? Ofcourse not. It's obviously something chosen to try and keep the game fun and playable, but to say it represents something else doesn't make sence either specially seeing we already have a stamina bar. It sounds more like what you feel it should be then what the devs intended with it.
@Natrina
I think food and drinking should definately have more of an influence. I have been thinking for quite a while how you can implement something without it becoming to annoying for people who don't make a lot of money and also make the foodprices a little like they would be with the players economy and most importantly making it so eating food and drinking isn't becoming an OOC requirement.
Haven't found an answer yet although I like the idea of the discoloring bars to represent you are hungry. Seems rather hard to combine if you are planning to use that for sickness and poisons aswell though so perhaps a icon on the status bar when you are hungry or poisoned or ill would be better.
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Personally I would rather it not be health becuase things like lifeinfusion makes roleplaying wounds a little to easy to heal, but if it's not health how do you explain people are able to fight 100% again with a wound? Is it realistic? Ofcourse not. It's obviously something chosen to try and keep the game fun and playable, but to say it represents something else doesn't make sence either specially seeing we already have a stamina bar. It sounds more like what you feel it should be then what the devs intended with it.
When you get wounded, you die. There is no other option in PS currently. Binary, 1 or 0. This explains why people are able to fight 100% again with a wound, or rather its lack.
Even the manual say HP are hit points and body development will be to increase health. Of course then health is still binary, but some of it's influence passes towards HP, as you are supposed to have more vital strenghts.
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From the guide
# To attack, just right click on the monster and click the sword icon. Look at the top right of the screen and you will see your and its life going down. Be sure to avoid death! If you are in trouble, run away and return later.
Description of the skill body development
Determines the health of your body and provides you with more hitpoints
Description of the skill endurance
The ability to run to far places and fight for prolonged periods depends on endurance. Stamina is directly related
What manual? All the things I read all say exactly the opisite of what you are saying. The stamina represents your ability to fight. hitpoints your Health
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If you think about it, HP (red bar) and stamina (green bar) are actually the same thing. They both represent your character’s -ability- to go on, though HP does it in a poor and undefined way. HP is more like your long term stamina, while stamina (green bar) is your ‘sprinting’ ability.
How injuries and healing figure into this, I am not sure.
This is how I would arrange things. For one thing, you would not ‘hit’ or be hit with every blow. Our characters would have so many holes in them by now, it is ridiculous to even consider it (though, that is the way it is done now). Instead, battles would be calculated by short term stamina, balance, long term stamina and -actual- injuries.
Balance: VERY important. Being knocked off balance is often the losing factor in a fight. When off balance, you can not attack or defend well, allowing your foe to injure or knock you down. Loss of balance depends on what fighting stance you are using and how high your short term stamina is. Example: you are using a ‘Full defensive’ type stance and have high stamina. This allows you to evade/block most physical attacks against and equal foe without losing much balance or stamina. Balance can be lost and regained within a few seconds. Regaining balance would be as simple as switching to a more evasive/defensive stance.
Short term stamina (STS): Every swing you make, spell you cast, step you move, block you do, or training you study drains your short term stamina. The lower it gets, the less accurate your moves, spells, balance, evasion, and blocking gets, and the slower you will learn. This has no affect on your health, but recharges at a steady rate based on health and long term stamina. Potions could restore short term stamina.
Long term stamina (LTS): A variation of HP that recharges based on your health. Think of this as the reserve for short term stamina. The higher your reserve, the faster short term stamina recharges. If stamina was water, this would be a large bucket with a small hole in it that drains into a small cup. The small cup would be short term stamina, which you drink from to do actions. Training your character in different ways would increase the size of the bucket, the cup, or the transfer hole. If your ‘bucket’ runs out of water, you are dead. Having 0% stamina means you have 0% energy left to do anything, including keeping your heart beating. If dedicated, you could possibly -run- yourself to death, but it would take a few days worth of non-stop running and jumping.
Injuries: This is for when you actually get hit. Injuries would be -unhealable- in a fight. No food, no magic, no potions. Injuries would have a direct affect on short term and long term stamina. Going back to the bucket example, injuries would be poking holes in your bucket and cup, draining both at a steady rate, and plugging the hole. As above, if these injuries drain your stamina to 0%, you are dead. Injuries would be classed from minor to lethal. Each ‘level’ of injury would put a drain on your LTS. Minor injuries would be “Rat hits you on the leg, giving you a bruise”. This drains only a tiny amount of LTS that you would not even notice, which heals the minor cut or bruise over time (magic could heal them faster). However, if you are hit by that rat a hundred times, your ‘little’ bruises are going to start adding up, reducing the flow of stamina to STS, and starting to drain your LTS at a fast rate. Severe injuries would be deep cuts and bad breaks, poking large holes in your ‘bucket’ of stamina. “Gobble slashes your arm, breaking it and causing severe bleeding.” For this, you get out of battle -fast- and get yourself healed by magic, or in a perfect system, bandage it and stop the bleeding if there are no mages about, then get help. Mortal injuries would kill you soon after inflicted, but you still have a little time to get away and find healing. Lethal injuries kill you instantly. “Ulbernaut takes a mighty swing, removing your head from your shoulders.” Say “Hi” to Mr. Death for me.
Heath: Actually, there would not really be a heath meter. Perfect health with no sickness or injuries would mean your LTS (or HP, if you must) would recharge at its maximum amount. Severe injuries would drain your LTS much faster than it could recharge. Sickness would slow the rate of recharge.
Battles would be a series of attacks, blocks, evades, and minor injuries until someone becomes off balanced enough that a solid blow could be landed, disabling or killing his opponent. Unless you are fighting an Ulber or such, where you have to land a great number of blows to cause it enough injury to kill it.
Now, this brings me to the topic of this thread. Food and drink. Food and drink do not instantly do anything for any of the above. Downing 100 apples during battle will just make you bloated ;). What foods and drink will do is give you a -future- boost in several of the above. How and what depends on what, exactly, you ate. A drink of water will boost the refill rate of your short term stamina for about half an hour of gameplay. A good steak will boost the refill rate of your long term stamina for a few hours of gameplay. A sugary snack will slowly increase the volume of your STS for about ten minutes of gameplay. Veggies would increase the volume of both LTS and STS to a small amount, and boost learning rates. Other foods would boost your magic abilities. Mixes of the above foods will very the ‘buff’ of volumes and refill rates.
“So I’ll just eat a 100 pounds of sugar before each battle!”
No, you won’t. Every type of character (based on stats) would have a ‘full’ meter (in a menu, or popup when eating) that would not allow you to eat more than your fill, and types of food that would be best for them. So, it will be up to you to find the best combination of foods to keep your character fully recharged in what you do the most. Filling up on sugars would be great for battling, but you run out fast and would have to wait until you had enough ‘room’ to eat more.
Potions (normal) would also have a slow affect, but speed up healing of injuries over the long run, or give a large boost to LTS or STS. Magic potions would heal your injuries very fast, but still take time. -Both- would take up room in your ‘full’ meter as well, and have adverse affects if you took them without already having eaten good foods.
Then there are other foods that have positive and negative effects (glances at the dwarves). Yes, wine and ale (and perhaps sugary foods). Such would give a boost in charisma and STS gain, but reduce the rate of learning a skill. Drinking too much then drops all skills, including charisma STS. some food could be great boons for casting magics, but be poisonous, such as muchrooms. Potions could have a similar effect, being greatly beneficial for healing wounds, but severely handicapping the rate of short term stamina refill (all your HP would be going towards healing, leaving nothing for actions).
However, you would never actually -have- to eat. Eating would just add 'buffs' to your character over time. When that food runs out, your buff fades. Otherwise, eating will be assumed to happen while offline, or the Sun's energy would sustain your character.
That is how I would do things. But that is just me. :)
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I have been thinking for quite a while how you can implement something without it becoming to annoying for people who don't make a lot of money and also make the foodprices a little like they would be with the players economy and most importantly making it so eating food and drinking isn't becoming an OOC requirement.
I don't think there is much to worry about that ... Hydlaa has plenty of appletrees with free food for the poor, Ojaveda might have to recieve something similar. And all the food available from NPC's in both cities is very cheap, as it should be. Four or five tria should get anyone a huge meal that will last them through the day.
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*smiles* true enough, but ofcourse 5 tria should be a lot more then it is in todays playereconomy so that is why I was thinking of more realistic prizes versus how this might force people to powerleveling to make money.
Didn't think of the appletrees so I suppose that would balance things out quite nicely if there would be such places in other areas aswell. *nods* good points ;)