PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Myriel on July 18, 2007, 04:59:57 pm
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I just wondered...because I think it would be quite uncomfortable for them to sit on their tails :P
I came to two possible solutions:
1) Enkidukai chairs have some kind of hole or slit in the back, so that there is room for the tail,
OR
2) They don't use chairs at all, instead they sit on furs and pillows around very low tables like people do in some real cultures, too(that would also be easier to realize with the current game mechanics as you can't sit on chairs yet ;))
What do you think?
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Having a tail doesn't prevent them from sitting down like people do. The tail isn't coming out from their butts - tailbones sit higher, and this doesn't interfere at all with them positioning themselves on a chair.
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Why would they need to sit on their tails? They could just curl it up towards their back.
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Exactly. Have you ever seen a cat sit? If anything, I would imagine the Enkidukai would want to sit a little forward in the chair just to make room for their tail to drape over the side.
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Hello!
I think that Enkidukai don't use chairs much but prefer sitting on the ground. It is said that Enkidukai maintain their wild nature and this is one part of it, at least for me. If they would use chairs it would be a kind of stool and not a chair with a backrest.
With kind regards
Kaityra
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@Myriel: Set your rump on a firm ground. Now start leaning backwards. At the point where it starts to hurt, that's how Enkidukai would have to sit for their tails to pose any problem ;)
@Kaityra: They may maintain their wild nature, but that doesn't mean they're birdbrains :P
They'll prefer hunting and wilderness over highly manners and great cities, but if you actually find one in a tavern, he won't sit on ground when there's a free chair right next to him ;)
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Hello!
Kaityra: They may maintain their wild nature, but that doesn't mean they're birdbrains :P
They'll prefer hunting and wilderness over highly manners and great cities, but if you actually find one in a tavern, he won't sit on ground when there's a free chair right next to him ;)
Pardon? Are Japanese or any other Asians birdbrains? Yet they sit on the ground more occasionally than the European...
No, it has nothing to do with not being able to produce such a thing as a chair. It has something to do with tradition and heritage.
And if you have read my comment you would have noticed that I have written "not much" and "kind of stool". Myriel is right, the tail is an issue although not a big one. An Enkidukai could sit on a chair with a closed backrest sideways for example.
With kind regards
Kaityra
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When Asians come to Europe and visit a place that has specifically chairs, they sit on chairs.
If European goes to a place displaying a typical Asian culture, he will sit on ground (provided the place is designed like that).
Likewise if Enkidukai goes to a tavern with chairs, he will sit on a chair.
Otherwise, yes, they are birdbrains.
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Ok, you're right, of course they can sit on chairs, I exaggerated a bit :oops: ...I just imagine that it would be a little uncomfortable. So I thought, it would be logical if there was another kind of chair or pillows on the ground or something in Ojaveda, as it's a city where mostly Enkidukai live...besides I think that that would be a nice detail as each race has a different culture and...well, that would make it more visible. The houses already look different, that's great :flowers:
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Well of course chairs won't be Enkidukai's item of choice... they're too bulky for the nomadic people :S
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Hello!
Well of course chairs won't be Enkidukai's item of choice...
Did I write anything else? ::)
With kind regards
Kaityra
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Slightly :offtopic: Why does the Ojaveda tavern have chairs, while most of the tents where enkidukai live have pillows for sitting on? It'd be different to have pillows in the tavern with everyone relaxing.
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Hello!
Why does the Ojaveda tavern have chairs, while most of the tents where enkidukai live have pillows for sitting on? It'd be different to have pillows in the tavern with everyone relaxing.
Hmmm, maybe only visitors go to the tavern while the Enkidukai enjoy the hospitality of their friends in one of the tents? Well, I guess the explanation is more simple: The tables and chairs should give you the feeling to be in a tavern.
But I second the suggestion to have carpets and pillows for us Enkidukai in the tavern.
With kind regards
Kaityra
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Hello!
Well of course chairs won't be Enkidukai's item of choice...
Did I write anything else? ::)
I believe I did write anything else. As in, explanation to the above statement; context you decided to cut out.
You said Enkidukai would prefer to sit on ground. I say they would sit on chairs if those are available. But they will use other items when traveling, for the simple reason chairs are too bulky to transport.
Why does the Ojaveda tavern have chairs, while most of the tents where enkidukai live have pillows for sitting on?
Brado doesn't need pillows. He doesn't transport his tavern all around the Dome.
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i always looked at the tavern chairs and just said to myself "if i had a tail, i would kill the person who designed these" Irick oftain just sits on the floor when he is alone. if he is with friends or someone who expects otherwise of him, he mans up and sits on the misshapen blocks of wood. though the innitial question was "can" i think you really mean "would", and then it is really a matter of personal choice.
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So a tail makes it awkward to sit on chair, but not on the ground? Explain?
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Hello!
[diplomatic mode on]
Well, the modern Enkidukai may do as him/her pleases, sitting on chairs, take a shower (/me shivers) or even eat cooked meat (/me shivers even more). We old fashioned Enkidukai with a wild and nomad tradtion will sit on the ground, preferable with some nice soft cushions (/me purrs at the thought). We will lick ourselfs to keep us clean and we will hunt when we are hungry and eat the raw meat wherever we are.
[diplomatic mode off]
With kind regards
Kaityra
*edit*
Hello!
So a tail makes it awkward to sit on chair, but not on the ground? Explain?
Hmmm, let's have a look at the animation of the male and female Endikukai sitting. I'm not sure about the male one at the moment although I think it is more leaning to one side. The female is sitting on her heels. Either way they are not sitting on their tail bones. Both methods of sitting are a little bit awkward when done on a chair.
With kind regards
Kaityra
[ No double-posting please. --Karyuu ]
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So a tail makes it awkward to sit on chair, but not on the ground? Explain?
well, first off, the tavern chairs have this big triangular part of their backing, which i keep envisioning wedging my character's tail uncomfortably if he sits down "normally" in one of the chairs. then there is the fact there is a backing at all. i think for an Enki to sit in a chair comfortably they would have to kinda slouch to give their tail space. Irick is all about appearances, and consiters slouching bad manors, worse then sitting on the ground. dose that about cover it?
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-- Edit 2, I cut the trolling out .. --
Edit: Just a little food for thought, but if Enkis couldn't sit on chairs comfortably, would they have taverns that have nothing but chairs as means of sitting?
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Well, the modern Enkidukai may do as him/her pleases, sitting on chairs, take a shower (/me shivers) or even eat cooked meat (/me shivers even more). We old fashioned Enkidukai with a wild and nomad tradtion will sit on the ground, preferable with some nice soft cushions (/me purrs at the thought). We will lick ourselfs to keep us clean and we will hunt when we are hungry and eat the raw meat wherever we are.
You don't bathe, only lick yourself and additionally eat raw meat... Do you realise Enkidukai have similar metabolism to that of humans? How come your character is still alive? And think of all the parasites...
Hmmm, let's have a look at the animation of the male and female Endikukai sitting. I'm not sure about the male one at the moment although I think it is more leaning to one side. The female is sitting on her heels. Either way they are not sitting on their tail bones. Both methods of sitting are a little bit awkward when done on a chair.
Ah, so I assume Ynnwns don't know how to sit in any other way than kneeling?
@Irick: Is your char really that fragile? I don't see what's the problem with wrapping a tail to side or even up front. Does pressing his back against the chair hurt him too? :P
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Hello!
@Draklar
Well, it seems that you don't even try to understand what others write, do you? The animations I have mentioned were an example of how sitting on the floor is different from sitting in a chair.
It seems that there are different approaches to play the Enkidukai race. You can play them like humans with some catlike features or you can play them like cats with a humanoid form. I don't have a problem with either approach. I have chosen the cat-approach for Kaityra and I really enjoy it. And as every other cat Kaityra does not have the same problems with parasites as humans have because she is just more resilient.
I want to suggest an experiment. Take a short stick of about 5-10cm. Hold that stick to your tail bone so that it is a natural extension of your lower back. Try to sit in a chair with it as humans do and you will see the problem.
With kind regards
Kaityra
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@Draklar that is correct. I don't remember how male ynnwns sit but female ynnwns kneel, unless you roleplay it differently. Anyway I forgot Enkis were nomadic, but I don't see how that would affect the tavern, its the center of the town(for now). It would make sense that it should match Ojaveda's culture. My question - it was actually just an observation but I forgot a tavern would also be a travellers first destination, so it would need to accomodate everyone.
@Cyl I've only seen one tavern, besides what about all the pillows and rugs in the tents, why don't they have chairs, can't be too hard to carry chairs?
By the way, your signatures cute, what is a fluff?
Being a non-enki, I have no idea about the tail and sitting, I would imagine a little space for the tail would make it easier for them.
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So now we're comparing tails to stiff sticks? Okay, I give up :P
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@Irick: Is your char really that fragile? I don't see what's the problem with wrapping a tail to side or even up front. Does pressing his back against the chair hurt him too? :P
let me put it this way, again, he can sit in a chair, but he choices not to because it causes unnecessary irritation, which in turn causes distraction, and in his training distraction = bad. as for the "wrapping a tail" comment, while it dose not seem like it takes much movement, if the feline build can be in any way reflective to the bone structure of the enki, you would be trying to bend the three bones at the base section of the tail around 130 degrees to either side just to get around the triangle even if your character is slouched, more [around 180] if you wanted your character to sit with his back against the seat. plain and simple, chairs are not made for tails. Enki _CAN_ use them but mine dose not _want_ to.
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Hello!
So now we're comparing tails to stiff sticks? Okay, I give up :P
I knew that this would be the answer. No, tails are not stiff sticks or I would have told you to get some broomstick. But the part of the tail we are talking about (the one near the pelvis) is quite stiff because it contains fairly big bones compared to the rest of the tail. So the short stick was just an approximation.
With kind regards
Kaityra
*edit*
Hello!
@Iridena
By the way, your signatures cute, what is a fluff?
"Fluff" is usually the bakcground story for a character. It is called fluff because it is in addition and has no technical meaning in a MMO(RP)G. For roleplaying it might be the most important part though.
In regard to tails I wanted to add that I like to use the tail to express the mood, e.g. I let it flip back and forth if being nervous. Sitting in a chair with a backrest the tail has to remain fairly still because there isn't much room to move it. Most movement of the tail are not done consiously but happen automatically. Having to keep the tail in one position for a longer period can be very strenuous, at least mentally of not physically.
With kind regards
Kaityra
[ No double-posting please. --Karyuu ]
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(http://z.about.com/d/cats/1/7/P/-/3/GGChair640x480.jpg)
(http://www.perkins-observatory.org/Images/cat/catonchairBIG.jpg)
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Hello!
Ah, photos of evidence.
As you can see, the first cat is sitting sideways on the chair as I have proposed in one of my earlier posts.
The second cat is sitting on the chair like it would sit on the ground. It leans forward using its front legs for support. It does not sit erect like a human would.
And btw. Enkidukai would have larger tail bones than house cats. The tail of an Enkiduaki wouldn't be as flexible at the base.
With kind regards
Kaityra
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I'm going to make this very clear, as a developer - Enkidukai have no problems sitting in human chairs. I don't know what you guys are arguing about, but if you want an official answer, there it is.
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Hello!
I'm going to make this very clear, as a developer - Enkidukai have no problems sitting in human chairs. I don't know what you guys are arguing about, but if you want an official answer, there it is.
Well, actually we cannot argue about it as the Enkidukai are a fictional race. As already mentioned I have chosen the cat-approach to play an Enkidukai. I was just explaining why with this approach my character behaves like she does. I hope that the races are set openly enough to allow different approaches.
Btw. where is the animation for sitting in a chair? ;)
With kind regards
Kaityra
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There is no such animation yet because we have no system in place to detect where you are sitting at the moment.
I hope that the races are set openly enough to allow different approaches.
Every race has their culture, history, and behavioral patterns. You are welcome to play outside of them, as long as you understand that your character is then not the norm of that race.
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Hello!
Every race has their culture, history, and behavioral patterns. You are welcome to play outside of them, as long as you understand that your character is then not the norm of that race.
Hmmm, Kaityra not being normal? Ok, signed. :) But reading some of the posts here I think that at least some other players take a similar approach.
I'm curious about the base of your decision about Enkidukai having no problems when sitting on chairs.
With kind regards
Kaityra
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That base has been mentioned multiple times by multiple players, pay attention.
And why are you so heavily discussing this anyway, it's not like this is an integral part of the game...
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can kran sit on chairs without breaking them, that is the question :P
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They eat them :P
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Hello!
That base has been mentioned multiple times by multiple players, pay attention.
Yes, Sir! I'll pay more attention in the future but if you have any links I would really appreciate it.
And why are you so heavily discussing this anyway, it's not like this is an integral part of the game...
Because it is an interesting question. Is there any problem discussing it? I mean, it is not off-topic or something...
With kind regards
Kaityra
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Below my post are two links on the right of the word "Pages:". The links are called "1" and "2". Click on them and you'll see the comments I'm talking about.
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I will simplify. The tailbone does not come directly out of the behind, but sits higher exactly as it does on us. A tail does not interfere with Enkidukai sitting as humans sit.
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don't usually say this, but i have to disagree with the Devs on this one based on feline bone structures. but hey, it's your game, you call the shots for the majority. as for me personaly, i will be in the minority until i see a flaw in my logic, or a bone structure chart for Enki's from settings. i know i am being suborn, and i apologize.
however i do not withdraw my point.
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Enkidukai have feline qualities, but they are not cats, just like humans are not apes. I find this an amusing topic, but I've given you answers and I'm going to refrain from repeating myself :)
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@Irick: I think all you have here are some misconceptions about the feline tails structure.
Enkidukai have feline qualities, but they are not cats, just like humans are not apes.
Orangutans! Karyuu meant to say orangutans :P
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Enkidukai have feline qualities, but they are not cats, just like humans are not apes. I find this an amusing topic, but I've given you answers and I'm going to refrain from repeating myself :)
we [the player/contributor community] have little information. there for we must do our best to compensate. as i said, show me an Ekien x-ray, then this topic will be settled.
we [the player/contributor community] need information, not summorys. put out a settings encyclopedia. until then all sorts of useless speculation will go on and result in more "amusing" topics. sorry if i come off blunt or offensive. I'm stressed out right now. and a tiny bit angry i still can not get other information from settings. not that it is their fault, i might not be trying hard enough.
i will admit i am not the "normal" player and probably am requesting to have accsess to far more information then the "normal" player. to tell you the trueth i am probably over stepping my bounderys. i want to be able to create in this world the PS team has provided, not just observe and interact with what is already there. i want to know "Why", not just that some thing dose. i want to add, not just take. but i do not think i, nor anyone, can if we don't know enough about the PS world as it is already.
@Draklar: i am pretty sure "it don't bend like that" or if it dose, it ain't doing so comfortably. i mean, you try bending your spine against a hard service for possably hours on end and see if you don't get a few pangs here and there. a tail is not stiff, but it is not pice of string eaither. your cat siting on a chair that is at least 4 times as big as him, dose not a good example make.
wow, long post, i feel better now. i think i'll go to sleep.
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This topic should have already been settled, because I am telling you as an art developer that Enkidukai have no problems sitting in human chairs. The fact that I have no time to draw a customized "Enkien x-ray" for you should not affect you to this degree. I want you to do an experiment for me. Sit down in your chair, and feel for your tailbone. You'll notice that usually, it is not pressing into the chair unless you are slouching back. On Enkidukai, the tailbone is an especially pronounced continuation of the spine and sits high enough that they experience no discomfort.
You can choose to remain stubborn about this, but it's becoming illogical when I am giving you these answers time after time. Now you can choose to accept them, or continue thinking that you have the "more right" answer even after my repeated explanations.
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@Irick: The examples were meant to show how the tails can be bent. I do believe that should be enough of a proof.
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Hi yer all ...
first of all: I have moved to another city and I am only able to use the internet at work for about 2 weeks, so I say sorry, if this is a silly question that could have been answered by myself if I had tried the new client. (Reading forums at work is one thing ... but playing just impossible)
:offtopic: ??
So hear (read) my question:
Is it possible to sit on chairs in an "normal way" for any chars ? (My last remembrance is that it looked kinda weird if you climbed a chair and sat down on it ... Has that changed in the new version ?)
:ban: ??
Thanks for your attention.
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Btw. where is the animation for sitting in a chair? ;)
There is no such animation yet because we have no system in place to detect where you are sitting at the moment.
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Hello!
I will simplify. The tailbone does not come directly out of the behind, but sits higher exactly as it does on us. A tail does not interfere with Enkidukai sitting as humans sit.
I accept this as a statement although the current model of the Enkidukai (at least that of the female) suggest that the tail bone is fairly low. I'll guess you will get a problem should you ever try to create a model for an Enkidukai sitting on a chair. Until then I consider this topic solved. I agree with Irick as nobody could convince me otherwise.
With kind regards
Kaityra
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This one isn't a debate about bone structure or "comfort" of sitting, but rather relates to animation.
We have a /sit command that causes the player model to run its sitting/sitting-loop animations. From what I've seen all the animation files are separate component parts so in [theory] it wouldn't be difficult to add a new animation (edit the CAL3D file to accept it, create new anim, and so forth)... I do acknowledge (from personal experience) that creating an animation is not as simple as saying "let it be so" but I imagine this is doable.
Anyhow, in the same vein that we have /attack1...5, perhaps a new /sit1 animation and game command for those of us who'd actually use chairs? Or even just an alternate sit command - doesn't necessarily have to be targeted towards chairs.
I know it's not a very high priority, but I thought I'd throw it out there.
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We have different chairs of different heights in the game - we'd never be able to match the animations properly at this stage.
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Depends on how it was done, actually... :sweatdrop:
I was thinking more of the people who (for whatever reason) sit cross-legged in chairs, although I do understand completely.
I do wonder however - it seems most static objects (rocks, tables, chairs, etc) all have bounding boxes for collision, so it could be feasible to gear the animation in question to "ground level" and take advantage of this natural collision. Of course, using it on flat terrain would mean your legs(/tail) go sinking into the ground, but the idea is there at least... I'm sure there [could] be an efficient solution, but that's a technical discussion for a different thread (or IRC). :whistling:
Just thought I'd pose the idea.