PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Raleigh on July 19, 2007, 10:43:38 pm
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I am not sure about this specific detail yet, as there is no law regarding it. Player characters will be able to write their own books, right? Now, what happens if somebody is caught with a book that has "subversive" or "indecent" content? Or is there freedom of "press" in Yliakum? Basically, I opened this thread to question about whether there will be some kind of IC censorship or not on what PCs write(Of course, I'm not referring to "mature" content in this thread, as then it's an OOC problem). Or, contrasting to the "medieval" nature, Yliakum is a "free" country?
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I find most people talk in a very liberal way. If that's the way they can talk in public you can only assume they are allowed to write in the same way.
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I find most people talk in a very liberal way. If that's the way they can talk in public you can only assume they are allowed to write in the same way.
I find nobody pays taxes yet too. This is a question regarding a not implemented yet feature, that is a functional government, and as a definitive law about "freedom of speech"/etc. is yet to be fleshed out by the Settings Team, this mean all of us might be wrong on the way our characters are open to speak or write about anything, I think it's rather a OOC thing, as most of us are used to free places IRL and as there is no mention of it, we assume Yliakum is quite free.
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To be completely honest, I don't think the Dev or GM teams will have the time to have anything but a land with free speech and free press.
So, I'm guessing that's what will be. I'd like to hear Xillix comment, though.
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Uh. Yliakum isn't a country.
Nor does it have a single widespread government.
That would be fairly stupid.
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Yliakum does have one solid and central government, known as the Octarchy.
It seems likely that this government would be heavy-handed with dealing with subversive books that encourage citizens to break the laws, or ones that somehow put the government at risk. Read the Octarchal Decree in Jayose's book for more on in-game law. I doubt the GMs have the time to enforce these laws, but one should probably roleplay with them in mind.
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Maybe Jayose can be the gatekeeper for publicly available literature... so that if you want him to include a book in his library you'd have to run it by him (aka the settings team) through some sort of mechanism.
As for books not in the library, many civilisations have had banned books yet those books still existed, traded by those who had a desire to seek forbidden knowledge... so in that sense.. outside the library I think a free-press is something that's almost unavoidable.
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Yliakum does have one solid and central government, known as the Octarchy.
Key word is "widespread". Yliakum is big. There will be places controlled by it, and places that aren't. There is no possible way one SINGLE government could control all of that land. At least not one that is possibly able to ban certain books effectively.
At least that's my assumption. Otherwise, like I said, that would be fairly stupid. But then maybe I speak too soon.
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Yliakum isn't all that big. The Dome's diameter is only 50 kilometers, the other levels are successively smaller. That's tiny, as countries go.
The Octarchy has very little say outside of Yliakum, ofcourse.
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Yliakum isn't all that big. The Dome's diameter is only 50 kilometers, the other levels are successively smaller. That's tiny, as countries go.
The Octarchy has very little say outside of Yliakum, ofcourse.
Yes but it also has 7 levels (correct me if I'm wrong) making it sound like a much more massive world to me.
Yliakum does have one solid and central government, known as the Octarchy.
Key word is "widespread". Yliakum is big. There will be places controlled by it, and places that aren't. There is no possible way one SINGLE government could control all of that land. At least not one that is possibly able to ban certain books effectively.
At least that's my assumption. Otherwise, like I said, that would be fairly stupid. But then maybe I speak too soon.
You are right. The Octarchs don't control all of Ylikuam. Look at the Stone Labyrinths. we can't control them for the fact that we have to fight what comes out of them to protect ourselves.
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You are right. The Octarchs don't control all of Ylikuam. Look at the Stone Labyrinths. we can't control them for the fact that we have to fight what comes out of them to protect ourselves.
Stone Labyrinths aren't Yliakum.
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I am not sure about this specific detail yet, as there is no law regarding it. Player characters will be able to write their own books, right? Now, what happens if somebody is caught with a book that has "subversive" or "indecent" content? Or is there freedom of "press" in Yliakum? Basically, I opened this thread to question about whether there will be some kind of IC censorship or not on what PCs write(Of course, I'm not referring to "mature" content in this thread, as then it's an OOC problem). Or, contrasting to the "medieval" nature, Yliakum is a "free" country?
Even if there isn't freedom of the press, characters should be able to make illegal books. It makes for good roleplay.
To be completely honest, I don't think the Dev or GM teams will have the time to have anything but a land with free speech and free press.
I'm not so sure. Controlling such things is an extremely high priority for this game's devs.
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Controlling such things is an extremely high priority for this game's devs.
I would be careful of such statements. The only "control" we are most likely to exert is moderate for OOC abuse.
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One thing I am sure of is that if the gm's and/or devs catch wind of a manual floating around that contains methods for abusing bugs or somehow creates a bug on its own, it will not go over very well. I do not think that books describing how to do quests or how to combine glyphs should create much of a problem. The former might have to be written in the manner of a diary to remain IC while the latter could just be a recipe book.
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I am not sure about this specific detail yet, as there is no law regarding it. Player characters will be able to write their own books, right? Now, what happens if somebody is caught with a book that has "subversive" or "indecent" content? Or is there freedom of "press" in Yliakum? Basically, I opened this thread to question about whether there will be some kind of IC censorship or not on what PCs write(Of course, I'm not referring to "mature" content in this thread, as then it's an OOC problem). Or, contrasting to the "medieval" nature, Yliakum is a "free" country?
Even if there isn't freedom of the press, characters should be able to make illegal books. It makes for good roleplay.
To be completely honest, I don't think the Dev or GM teams will have the time to have anything but a land with free speech and free press.
I'm not so sure. Controlling such things is an extremely high priority for this game's devs.
Yes, I'm not asking about an OOC system that blocks you from writing a book, but for what would happen IC if you were caught with a book pointing certain flaws of justice system, defending other forms of government or telling things "the Man doesn't want the people to know". And about the last statement, I don't think so, it is a ridiculous waste of time to work and develop a game just to control others. As exemplified below:
"So as a munchkin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchkin_%28role-playing_games%29), I want and am making/supporting a game that will take decades to be finished just to control it and then to roleplay being a god/emperor/etc and do whatever I want with the other people characters on it because it is pleasant to my ego because I can't command anybody IRL." Now that is what I call a far-fetched statement on other people's motivation(and yep, it's what I interpreted from it). And anyway, having GMs to assume gods/etc is(and if not, should be) a temporary solution while certain game mechanics are not implemented. In fact, pulling a bit more offtopicness I think there should be much more support to player-made events instead, and a solid and dynamic quest system.
Until now though, there is no written law in-game declaring that it's illegal to write things of that nature, or non-mainstream religious books, so all that is left is to wait for an official answer from the Settings, or if it doesn't come, write this on the next Q.A.
One thing I am sure of is that if the gm's and/or devs catch wind of a manual floating around that contains methods for abusing bugs or somehow creates a bug on its own, it will not go over very well. I do not think that books describing how to do quests or how to combine glyphs should create much of a problem. The former might have to be written in the manner of a diary to remain IC while the latter could just be a recipe book.
It's obvious that OOC things will be controlled and removed if necessary, I'm more interested on whether there is or not an IC censorship of the stuff. Now about quests, I think would be quite weird to have the solution to some quests written ICly. I'm not sure whether some "big brother" of books exists or not, so I'm waiting for an answer, as I said.
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Your assuming that they have something they don't want you to hear. You already know the nature of the government better than the settings team so why do you ask when you can answer your own question? Take down the 'The Truth Is Out There' poster, drop the Orwell book and go play in the sun or some other non-paranoid activity. Its good fun and who cares if they're watching.
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I suggested the diary format because it wasn't specifically about how to do quests although that information could be gleaned from it. Very briefly: "I woke up this morning and wandered around town for a bit, I stopped to talk to Harnquist and he asked me to get him a couple steel ore. I headed out of town to where I knew of an iron mine and a coal mine. Just as I left the city gates I was waylaid by a member of the filthy MadHatters guild and spent a good half hour sparring with him until I finally dispatched him to the DR. ...." And so it goes on incidentally including the steps to take to complete the quest.
I think that to have this type of in-game material available would be preferable to blatant cheat guides on the guild forums. Others might not agree.
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Your assuming that they have something they don't want you to hear. You already know the nature of the government better than the settings team so why do you ask when you can answer your own question? Take down the 'The Truth Is Out There' poster, drop the Orwell book and go play in the sun or some other non-paranoid activity. Its good fun and who cares if they're watching.
You are assuming that the government is perfect. Take down Thomas Moore's "Utopia", go away from the "tea time lobby" (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27935.msg335880#msg335880) and try to understand that perfection IC = boredom OOC. This game can be more than a IRC Room with roleplay flavor in a completely peaceful land of pretty flowers and harmony... In fact I was giving an hypothetical example about someone having something written that isn't very pleasant, so just pay attention next time before making another reductio ad absurdum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduction_ad_absurdum). I shouldn't have fed this, but anyway, I don't understand why to suddenly make this so close to personal. Hopefully the post quoted here will be the last logical fallacy, possibly answered by other one. I see what this previous post is...
- There is book control in dystopian novels and conspiracy theories thrillers
- So it doesn't match with any other type of literature or fictional universe, if it isn't dystopian, book censorship isn't believable.
- Government is either completely perfect or evil, there is no in-between.
Pretty simplistic and pretentious views loaded with sarcastic "you're paranoid" comments.
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Controlling such things is an extremely high priority for this game's devs.
I would be careful of such statements. The only "control" we are most likely to exert is moderate for OOC abuse.
I take care when making such statements.
And about the last statement, I don't think so, it is a ridiculous waste of time to work and develop a game just to control others.
Talad isn't involved in enforcing the rules of the game, and he isn't the only dev with decision-making powers. The obvious conclusion is that my statement did not refer to Talad.
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*sigh*
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As if this hasn't been stated enough, it's a game. The goal is to have fun and enjoy yourself. If you glean amusement or fun from writing in-game, go for it. Odds are good, whatever you write will be acceptable, unless you're either 1) deliberately being offensive, or 2) insist on writing some [really] horrific/grotesque/insert-appropriate-adjective-here. I freely admit that I don't have a lot of time or experience swimming with the PlaneShift community as a whole, but from what I've surmised, devs don't have the time [or] inclination (generally speaking) to step in and play the Fahrenheit-451 game. Now if something blatantly obscene is brought specifically to someone's attention, that's a different matter and I'm guessing it would be judged on a case-by-case basis, with the majority of responses being "It's fine, quit whining."
In other words, play the game, have fun, and on the rare occasion censorship [does] swing your way, just take it in stride.
Sheesh.
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You are assuming that the government is perfect. Take down Thomas Moore's "Utopia", go away from the "tea time lobby" (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27935.msg335880#msg335880) and try to understand that perfection IC = boredom OOC. This game can be more than a IRC Room with roleplay flavor in a completely peaceful land of pretty flowers and harmony... In fact I was giving an hypothetical example about someone having something written that isn't very pleasant, so just pay attention next time before making another reductio ad absurdum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduction_ad_absurdum). I shouldn't have fed this, but anyway, I don't understand why to suddenly make this so close to personal. Hopefully the post quoted here will be the last logical fallacy, possibly answered by other one. I see what this previous post is...
- There is book control in dystopian novels and conspiracy theories thrillers
- So it doesn't match with any other type of literature or fictional universe, if it isn't dystopian, book censorship isn't believable.
- Government is either completely perfect or evil, there is no in-between.
Pretty simplistic and pretentious views loaded with sarcastic "you're paranoid" comments.
I never claimed to know the nature of the government, you did. Let the settings team decide rather than assuming that the default is terrible. Most of the time I'd agree with you but the way you put things makes it difficult to express that. Actually I rather like you but you jump to the conclusion that I don't and that I'd rather be playing Habbo Hotel. Just chill out and stop being so cynical.
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What's everyone getting so defensive about? Its a legitimate question. (though, in my opinion a fairly obvious answer)
Really, I don't think he cares that some of you do not.
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It's the "obvious answer" one I was aiming for, Kiern. Although I did gloss over the discussion of OOC content - but I think the answer to that was stated previously as well. ;)
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The matter is still in discussion among devs.
As is evident elsewhere the Octarchy is not always friendly.
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I would say that this falls into the common sense category. If you or your character has to ask yourself, "Should I be writing this?" or "I wonder how much trouble this will get me into." or "I hope this slips by without a GM noticing." then the answer is likely "No."
There is no system of law -coded- right now, but that does not mean you assume there are no laws, or you are above them. I was just told yesterday by someone with maxed stats that they can do anything they want because they could defeat any guard sent to arrest them. Foolishness and idiocy. If one guard was defeated, ten more would come. Defeat them, and the rest of the army comes. One way or the other, you go down. The same goes for writing. Just because no one -will- come to arrest you right now, it does not mean they would not.
Good RPing means playing to bounds coded in the game, as well as those that are not.
As for 'freedom of speech', don't count on it. One of my characters, who is a law abiding and upstanding citizen, was killed by an Octarch's guard for questioning the Octarch's motives in putting citizens in danger for his own benefit.
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Utm's post is a clear representation imo of roleplaying with reasonable boundaries. As devs we will do everything in our power to place some kind of system of checks in place to make sure book content falls within reasonable boundaries. If anyone has ideas on how to make this work we would surely be open to the discussion at least. The dev team has some ideas on how to do this but as the debate is not settled my NDA prevents me from sharing with players atm. Raliegh raises legitimate concerns here, and as usual, the dev team also shares those concerns.
The Octarchal Decree will be a changing document as new laws are needed; fortunately for the settings team history has not officially begun, so these edits should be seen as ex post facto in application. Players who wish to roleplay well should bear these laws in mind as they govern themselves. I mean that for the lawless and the lawful. The best way for a player to play a role in planeshift is to be well rooted in the settings. In fact it is darn near impossible to play a role that is effective without this knowledge.
Settings has done all it can to elicit player feedback to aid its efforts to produce a fuller and richer rp experience for the "players" (i still think of you all as testers) and player written books may well add to this richness. Greatest additions will come from those with the best education on the PS settings imo.
Great books may also give me a clue to who to include in the team or at least who to court :)
Happy gaming.
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One of my characters, who is a law abiding and upstanding citizen, was killed by an Octarch's guard for questioning the Octarch's motives in putting citizens in danger for his own benefit.
Utm's post is a clear representation imo of roleplaying with reasonable boundaries.
Except that the death penalty is only used for extreme crimes according to the settings. Nothing in the settings suggests that the government is fascist.
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I'll just stick to writing love poems to my wife. Can hardly go wrong there ...I hope :whistling:
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Except that the death penalty is only used for extreme crimes according to the settings. Nothing in the settings suggests that the government is fascist.
There is a difference between permanent death and normal 'go to Death Realm, do not pass start' death. ;)
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Exactly. Zan is right (it is all in a book somewhere). I do not at all like the 'new' take on death as a common side trip in life, but that is the bandage that was used to try to tape gameplay to Settings. Permanently 'executing' a character is do-able, but rare, and only for certain things. Temp kills for random things or insults are not, sadly.
I would do two things to books as it is, however. One, add a 'bad word' filter to it. Two, add some sort of player 'rating' to books that GMs can see in a list. Then, 'bad' books can be weeded out faster.
By the way, can GMs find and delete a book easily the way the system works now?
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well if your only looking at ways to stop offensive content in book a good first step would probably to be bending the filter setting to allow it to cheack the typeing in books and send a report to gms of any "bad words" that have been writen in books and currently who owns such books as for other content i guess you will really have to go with players unless you keep a log of ever book being created and its content and you all read over it. but the bad word system has problems with it words like bugger and damn ome up as being filterd out witch i really dont see as bad words not if used correctly.
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Except that the death penalty is only used for extreme crimes according to the settings. Nothing in the settings suggests that the government is fascist.
There is a difference between permanent death and normal 'go to Death Realm, do not pass start' death. ;)
No, there isn't. When you die, you go to the death realm. Some find their way back to the realm of the living, most don't. According to the settings, anyway. You could always godmode if you wanted to RP differently.
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Ahem. No, zanzi, you are quite wrong here. Certain executions do not send you to the deathrealm at all. Others prevent you from ever returning to life. As for most folks not returning from the DR, that has been changed in the Settings, if not yet on the main site. As said, go read some of the new books. Anybody can come back now.
*edit* Allive, just modify your own filter to put in or leave out what you wish. I happen to filter out all 'LOL's and ':)'s.
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yeah well what i was saying is use the current bad word thing for chat for going over books as you type em but blocking words like this i think would be so anoying ect ect also if it was going to be used to go over books and report to gms it means it will not be able to modify it and you could be getting books removed for no reason.
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Ahem. No, zanzi, you are quite wrong here. Certain executions do not send you to the deathrealm at all. Others prevent you from ever returning to life. As for most folks not returning from the DR, that has been changed in the Settings, if not yet on the main site. As said, go read some of the new books. Anybody can come back now.
*edit* Allive, just modify your own filter to put in or leave out what you wish. I happen to filter out all 'LOL's and ':)'s.
Ahem. Are you claiming "the new books" as a source? Ahem.
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By the way, can GMs find and delete a book easily the way the system works now?
Nope. The developers would be able to query the database though, but that would annoying do to every time.
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All sexually explicit material will be confiscated by me <.< after reading to check that it really is explicit.
We must Think Of The Children.
P.S. Bloody gruesome violence is okay though. Say NO to boobies!
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*falls off his stool laughing*
*all Copy Center customers stare in horrified amusement*
. . .
That auto-filter isn't a bad idea though. Based on the logic "if you can do it to chat, why not to book-writing?" Even if it doesn't eliminate cheat-books or offensive material, it would eliminate LOL, n00b, [explitives], and so forth - although I'd hope that anyone inclined to write would be above such foul things.
I'm allowed to hope, right?
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Lets face it, most of what is written is not going to be within the settings, and possibly downright offensive. There are going to be book burnings, mark my word... they will have to add another bunch of GMs as "firemen", its gonna be a full-time job. Filters won't do it and querying the database won't do it, unless one can account for every permutation of spelling, obfuscation, and language variance in writing. But I love the feature...
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There will be players who will make a trade out of selling books that others write. People will be able to go to such merchants to avoid grafiti.
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A bad word filter? Seriously?
:surrender: