PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: saladasalad on July 30, 2007, 05:15:30 am
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I would like to propose the use of chatterbots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatterbot) to improve NPC dialog. Chatterbots could completely eliminate NPCs non-recognition of simple phrases. For example, if I approached a random NPC and ask "about quest" they will respond. If I ask an NPC "Do you have a quest?" they will respond, but if I ask an NPC "Do you have any quests?" they will not know what I am talking about. All the NPC really needs to know is that you are asking a question about quests/tasks/jobs, a chatterbot could be easily taught to respond to just about any different way of asking "Do you have a quest?".
Chatterbots can be taught by asking them a question and if you are unhappy with the response then you correct them, the next time they are asked that question they will give the corrected answer. Leaving the bots open to be taught by players would probably lead to pollution of the NPCs dialog so it should be closed to the settings team or players who have been given permission to teach NPCs. Either way, players chat logs should be logged by the server (are they already?) so that the most common questions (and methods of delivery) can be entered into a template bot that could then be used for all NPCs. This method has the added advantage of allowing the settings team to test the dialog as they are programming it.
Another place where I think this could be very beneficial is in a virtual adviser, a very knowledgeable NPC (Jayose perhaps) could act as an adviser on OOC issues. Instead of GMs and advisers having to repeat answers to common questions over and over, such as, "What do glyphs do?", etc. Again, the answers could be based on questions logged questions from players.
I think the best way to go about assessing this idea would be to weigh up the positives and negatives:
Pros
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- Much more realistic interaction with NPCs.
- Innovative; could attract new developers and players.
- Decrease workload on GMs and Advisers.
- It would be a good way to introduce new information about Yliakum or rumours, etc.
- Could make PS a personalised experience via NPCs "getting to know" the player.
- Quite a few actively developed open source chatterbots are already available, see:
* Program D (http://aitools.org/programd) (Java, J2EE)
* RebeccaAIML (http://rebecca-aiml.sourceforge.net/) (C++)
* ChatterBean (http://www.geocities.com/phelio/chatterbean/) (Java)
* Program R (http://projects.dottorsi.com/programr) (Ruby)
* Program Q (http://sourceforge.net/projects/qaiml) (C++, Qt)
* AIMLbot (Program #) (http://aimlbot.sourceforge.net/) (.NET/C#)
* Program W (http://programw.sourceforge.net/) (Java)
Cons
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- Difficult/time-consuming to implement. (?)
- If it is open to players to teach NPCs then they might teach them spoilers or OOCness. (Solution: Let only team members teach NPCs.)
Could I please get some opinions on this?
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Settings has been recently given a tool to log things that players ask NPCs (or rather, things that players ask NPCs that are not understood.) We are in the midst of making NPCs smarter by using these answers.
Problem: not many players talk to NPCs, thinking it's not worth it because their dialogue is flawed, therefore very little gets logged. Believe me, I've gone around and checked. Most NPCs have zero misunderstood things, and high-traffic NPCs like harnquist usually have a handful (almost all of which are based around quests.)
Solution: Talk to NPCs and PM me directly as to what they're not understanding. I've even made my own thread about it for more information:
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=29353.0
Thanks for your concern and support.
I do realize that you have less than 10 messages; I am often available on IRC so you may attempt to PM me there as well, or hang on to your logs until you have 10 messages..
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Actualy i was playing with a public chat bot a few months ago.Their realy interesting.I even managed to teach it lithuanian.It knew the basics and the secondary word meanings.Its quite fun that they at first reffer to you as "User #" but after a quick type she learned my name.That would be fun to see that at first NPC's dont know your name and reffer to you as "stranger" but once you introduce yourself they will call you by name.
Also before i forget id like to Jeraphon for his idea on fixing NPC's and saladasalad for beeing so constructive.
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Help in this way and you will have what you have complained of not having.
If you do not you lose credibility for all complaints related to npcs forever :)
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Settings has been recently given a tool to log things that players ask NPCs (or rather, things that players ask NPCs that are not understood.) We are in the midst of making NPCs smarter by using these answers.
<snip>
I do realize that you have less than 10 messages; I am often available on IRC so you may attempt to PM me there as well, or hang on to your logs until you have 10 messages..
If you already log un-understood (???) questions should I still PM you all my questions or just the ones that were misunderstood?
And just out of curiosity, what sort of system does PS use for NPC AI (language and behaviour)? Aren't you already basically creating simplified chatterbots? Is there an AI team?
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And just out of curiosity, what sort of system does PS use for NPC AI (language and behaviour)? Aren't you already basically creating simplified chatterbots? Is there an AI team?
BAM! (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=28632.0)
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If you already log un-understood (Huh) questions should I still PM you all my questions or just the ones that were misunderstood?
You can do either. Some people give me the understood ones as well, and comment on the answer. For example, "I wasn't expecting him to know that" or "That's pretty good, but maybe you can add this..."
I only get logs based from the most recent restart, so you can understand why I'd like them PMed right now. I can't exactly go around to all 100+ NPCs and check the logs, hoping someone's done a top ten since the last restart. Furthermore, some NPCs do "understand" things but still respond they don't know. Example, "I know where many things are, but not that." might be an answer if you ask an NPC where something is. It's taken as understood, but is still not helpful. Make sense?
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Does this count for quest-related NPC conversations and your every day chatter alike?
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Does this count for quest-related NPC conversations and your every day chatter alike?
The logs, yes.
But quests and everyday chatter are handled two different ways. Right now I'm looking to improve everyday chatter. Improving quests will come after that. And yes, I'm fully aware that most people don't want to talk to NPCs at all unless it's quest-related, but that's part of the reason we're doing this - to make NPCs feel more like characters and less like quest automata.
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I am in favor of a much simpler NPC chat interface. I think that every one interacts with an NPC it should be done through a list of possible responses. Just like how it is done in the Elder Scrolls or the vast majority of other RPG and MORPG games out there.
The current system makes very user unfriendly and really disincentives people, mostly noobs, from playing the game.
Thats what I think anyway.
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arkuis: That suggestion has been brought up many times before, and we have argued against it for various reasons. Our goal is to make the NPCs feel like real people - a lofty ambition, but one that is possible if we keep at it.
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I am sure you have but it has a very negative effect on game play for a first time gamer. It is no fun trying to guess what the NPC wants to hear you say the whole time is very boring. I suppose you could put a list of coming commands and talking points for first times gamers, that would help things a bit.
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I am sure you have but it has a very negative effect on game play for a first time gamer. It is no fun trying to guess what the NPC wants to hear you say the whole time is very boring. I suppose you could put a list of coming commands and talking points for first times gamers, that would help things a bit.
That's precisely what the thread (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=29353.0) Jeraphon linked to is about. In this respect, it is particularly vital that not only "experienced" players, but also new players to do that, because the phrases of each will differ.
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And yes, I'm fully aware that most people don't want to talk to NPCs at all unless it's quest-related, but that's part of the reason we're doing this - to make NPCs feel more like characters and less like quest automata.
Sorry to keep harping on about it but this is why I think that powering NPCs with chatbots would be a sensible action. Your goals are the same as that of the chatbot developers, you're basically creating a chatbot from scratch when there are already some very advanced, open source, alternatives available.
I am sure you have but it has a very negative effect on game play for a first time gamer. It is no fun trying to guess what the NPC wants to hear you say the whole time is very boring. I suppose you could put a list of coming commands and talking points for first times gamers, that would help things a bit.
I don't understand this perspective. If you can't hold a RL conversation then PS probably isn't the game for you anyway.
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ok well I posted a topic on this subject and it got deleted.
I posted that topic because it applied to the Wishlist rules. "A NEw Twist on an old subject" Maybe nxt time the moderators can add my good ideas to this thread before just flat out deleting my post.
Anyway something needs to be done about this.
For instance the NPC simply sayin I'm sorry did you mean "And then provide a list of possible subjects that are associated with the text you typed in." would solve this problem.
*edit*
I am sure you have but it has a very negative effect on game play for a first time gamer. It is no fun trying to guess what the NPC wants to hear you say the whole time is very boring. I suppose you could put a list of coming commands and talking points for first times gamers, that would help things a bit.
I don't understand this perspective. If you can't hold a RL conversation then PS probably isn't the game for you anyway.
U don't understand?
In Real Life if I came to you and asked you Kran Poetry would u not correct me? If I came to you asking about the application of a linux honey pot on a network and i didn't seem to know what i was talking about, Would you stand there and tell me "you sound like a mumbling dirt dobber" if so Then "you" obviously can't hold a "RL conversation" then can you? Man if you don't understand this prespective then you need to crawl out from under that rock you are living under and talk with some RL people, Or better yet take a break from this game and get some fresh air your social skills are starting to fade.
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Chill. That comment wasn't even addressed to you. Anarid was saying that we should have a system where we didn't have to come up with or type our own character's dialogue. If you are saying that "NPCs should understand what we are saying" then I totally agree with you, that is the purpose of this thread.
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Sorry to keep harping on about it but this is why I think that powering NPCs with chatbots would be a sensible action. Your goals are the same as that of the chatbot developers, you're basically creating a chatbot from scratch when there are already some very advanced, open source, alternatives available.
Knowing what I know about how NPC dialogue is processed, I think importing chatterbots would be needlessly complicated. Are we producing chatterbots from scratch? Well, perhaps. But each NPC has individual knowledge that would need to be programmed either way, be it using a chatterbot program or the status quo. Now that we're used to it, we have a handle on it, and - this is the most important part - there's a guy willing to sit down and start cranking it out, it would probably get done quicker if it was done with the current method.
So please. If you're reading this, help out. Heck, ask anyone who has submitted NPC questions/triggers to me what the end result was if you're skeptical.
You've got more than 10 messages now, saladasalad. I'm looking forward to hearing from you. :)
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Actually, I would not mind a few 'chatterbots' in the game that talk, jest, or bicker with players in open chat, not the NPC tab. Of course, that could be done on any player's client if they had the know-how. No need to bother the Devs if that is what you truly want.
Though, I think they might be banned if found out. *frowns*
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Actually, I would not mind a few 'chatterbots' in the game that talk, jest, or bicker with players in open chat, not the NPC tab. Of course, that could be done on any player's client if they had the know-how.
I've seen this before in a MUD. NPCs who would wander to your area (usually when someone shouted) and react to every emote you made or spout random phrases are really annoying. They were sometimes useful if they spoke foreign languages that you had partial knowledge of so you could improve off them, but otherwise you'd just ask a really powerful wizard to go into the next room, shout to beckon them, then toast them with a fire bolt.
In PS, people would probably just petition them for harassment.
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I would only have them respond if their name was said. Then they would be the only ones who would file for harassment. ;)
A town gosip would be a good candidate.
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A town gosip would be a good candidate.
There's a certain Dermorian bartender who's a good gossip. You should try asking her about it. :detective:
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On the subject of NPC interactions, It is very annoying that it is very difficult to find the right words.
I would like to see key words highlighted in the texts. This way clues could be left to direct the player to the right words. (I was going to give an example, but then realised that I would be posting a spoiler)
My biggest frustration is knowing exactly what is required, but not knowing which words to type to overcome the user interface. It certainly reduces my enjoyment of the game.
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From what I've notice from doing quests (I went on a quest rampage not too long ago, it was awesome :P )
NPC 101 for quests goes like this:
1) Read what they say, there's usually something along the lines of "Go ask Somebody about something." at which point you go to Somebody and say "Tell me about something"
2) Most every trigger, unless it's answering somebodies question is "Tell me about thing" Or "Somebody sent me" with the odd "Give me item"
3) Most quest spoonfeed you the trigger, no joke :P
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Sorry to dig this up but after being advised, I figured I would bring this to the top and see if there has been any leeway made. I know I have a very difficult time trying to find ANY key words to get ANY information from the NPCs. I have not been playing long (more than a few days) but the ONLY key words/phrases I have found is:
Hi or hello
What is your job?
Do you have a quest for me?
Oh and "what is the latest gossip" from the tavern lady... otherwise... nada. I type very plain and proper spelling, clear concise english and my least favorite phrase nowadays is that NPC's version of "I don't understand"
I never could finish the introductory quest so I just said to send me to Hydlaa....
and I have only taken one quest here which is the guy needing 7 beers... and even after doing the quest, it still remains incomplete...
My suggestion from the other post which I was told was off-topic:
One thing the developers may want to look into is called the "Billy Project" from Greg Leedberg... I have been following his project since he was a teen (almost 9 years now) and it has made some major progress since the early days. The project has not been touched much in the past few years but the core programs and abilities are there and something like Planeshift and its "real conversation" format may be enough to have him jump on board and help out or at least allow usage of his Billy Project program.
Take preset responses, combine with real conversation and how people speak, it learns to give proper and customized responses. So say the devs introduce a new magician into the plaza that only comes out at night, no need to reset a whole series of NPC responses. Add a few preset comments about "Rethalian only comes out at night" and "Rethalian can teach you things about the Dark Way that you could only dream of before"... and as people start talking and asking, using the Billy Project it is possible for "word of mouth" to spread knowledge about any single person in the game in a matter of a day or two to other NPC.
Plus as travellers move from town to town, word of mouth can travel much more slowly, kind of like how it did in the medieval days. A few people go to the neighboring town talking about a new magician... and usually within a week or so the new magicians name is known.. and then later on "he is familiar with the Dark Way"... and so on...
So much potential as long as the NPC preset responses are programmed in...
and before someone says it... yes his installable program is windows only but the programming was done in C++ and parts in linux so contacting him about the potential to use this would help the game out so much.
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I have to agree with an earlier post... there is usually a trigger phrase in the quest dialog.
I find that "Can I help you" or. my preference "May I help you" is a very effective way to get the NPC to tell you if they have a quest or not.
Typically the dialog during a quest will set things up in such a way that you "tell so-and-so I sent you"... so you would target NPC and type "so-and-so sent me". Look for "say" or "tell" or "about" or give/get <item>. This should help you greatly.
And no... I am not disagreeing with you... I HATE "I'm sorry, but I don't seem to understand what you are trying to say". But this is a work in progress, and I've come to enjoy the game a lot.