PlaneShift

Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nikodemus on August 13, 2007, 04:32:32 pm

Title: Cogs, ha!
Post by: Nikodemus on August 13, 2007, 04:32:32 pm
(http://psgrafika.republika.pl/cogs.png)

So, this are winch cogs! Texture really great, design makes me badly disturbed when i look at it ;P
Knowing quite a lot about 3D graphics, i realise its quality-face count compromise. But it could have been made better! If this won't be changed in winch, maybe the future machinery designs will be made with this kept in mind, more sense ;>

Look at their shape and now look at: 

They are almost nowhere near close to this.
I gues first cogs ever invented wasn't that precise,
PS case, but what we see in PS, makes no sense.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/pl/c/c2/Zab_kola_zebatego_1.png)

The spaces beetwen each "teeth" are too big. So big that i doubt the cogs can rotate at all. Additionally, look at the three bigger cogs in the upper part of the screenie. Isn't the distance beetwen them too big? I assume these cogs were supposed to work with another (they are in the same plane), but they can't ;P
I propose to decrease the distance beetwen cogs (look at the greyscale scheme) and their design too. I propose to use 9 "teeth" for a medium size cog and add one more side to each "teeth", what will look like this:
http://psgrafika.republika.pl/cogs.swf
In comparison to winch cogs, this one will have 48 faces more (one more teeth and 4 faces more a teeth, coz of shape change)
and it would be beautiful, if in PS the cogs rotated from time to time ;> To make the animation, i used one bone a cog.

I want to comment on the cog axis too. In the winch it is made as prism with square base, where texture is imitating a round cyllinder. Think, from tehnical point of viev it doesnt have to at all! It may be even a prism with triangle base. On such a prism, the cog has no chance to get loose! And the axis has round ending only in the wall, where it is mounted and where player can't see what's inside, so it doesnt have to be modeled at all ;D
If the cog is supposed to be loose on the axis, it again is round only hidden by the cog. The axis isn't rotated, thus animated. It is static.
I think both solutions are good.

There are two more alternatives to the cog shape.
http://psgrafika.republika.pl/cogs-l1.swf
and
http://psgrafika.republika.pl/cogs-l2.swf

What we have in PS currently isn't really a making sense and good option ;) Finally, i think that if you devs can't spent time on this kind of design, maybe you will let someone else, who is wanting? *Nikodemus blinks*

I except many replies ;P
Title: Re: Cogs, ha!
Post by: bilbous on August 13, 2007, 10:38:05 pm
Well we know a great magic is involved with the winch from the settings team so perhaps the shapes of the gears are more suggestive than functional.
Title: Re: Cogs, ha!
Post by: Seytra on August 13, 2007, 11:44:05 pm
Quote from: bilbous on August 13, 2007, 10:38:05 pm
Well we know a great magic is involved with the winch from the settings team so perhaps the shapes of the gears are more suggestive than functional.
Maybe, but the winch is a combination of magic and mechanics. If it weren't, then the mechanics would have no real place there. The head mechanic also is at work near one of these places, implying some function, even though their actual position and size don't immediately suggest which. Additionally, FAIK, medieval aesthetics used to decorate the machinery and walls, but not actually waste space like this (though obviously this may be a special twist in Yliakum).

It is however possible that they're not in use right now because they're part of some gearbox. The gears that aren't used ATM may just be lowered into the machine room for space (or maintenance), and since they don't move, they don't need to be shielded, nor do they need to be in a usable position WRT each other. At least that's how I explained it to myself.

The shape is another matter, even though the gear they embed into might simply not show. The shape itself doesn't necessarily need to be altered, because while the design shown here may be the most robust /efficient one, this might not have been discovered yet, or they might not need to sustain big forces; they're rather small, anyway, given the size of the winch itself, so maybe they're only used for loading and unloading. The winch needs to span 15km, so gears this small (look at the gears in an aerial ropeway) likely can't cope with the forces unless they're magically enhanced. If they are, though, they don't need to be any particular shape anymore (though it might still make sense). The teeth in windmill gears (which also are huge) are all sorts of shapes, some simply square or round (special shapes usually exist only when they need to intersect at an angle).

Edit: corrections
Title: Re: Cogs, ha!
Post by: bilbous on August 14, 2007, 01:11:06 am
Well I meant suggestive as in to imply the purpose for the device as something to hook the magic on. For instance if you want to summon a giant eagle you might make a little clay bird figurine or you might carve a small sun rune on a staff of firebolts.
Title: Re: Cogs, ha!
Post by: Seytra on August 14, 2007, 01:18:26 am
Ah, I see. Obviously that interpretation didn't cross my mind, as I assumed that the magic involved isn't direct spells (like energy arrow), but more of the enchanted item type, and the Movers more or less maintain that magic (they say it's "magical augmentation", anyway), so rarely require actual casting of spells. *shrug*
Title: Re: Cogs, ha!
Post by: bilbous on August 14, 2007, 03:42:58 am
Fair enough, but even enchantments begin as spells. For instance if you wanted an item that allowed you to summon that eagle once per day it would still likely require that totem during the casting of the item enchantment spell. Thus the winch has a permanent magic that is perhaps a miniature lift mechanism but still requires further magic cast each time for it to actually function. It may be that all we will ever see is the platform  going up and down with no apparent supports or even connection to the cliff side. It is possible that the only evidence of the workings will be a scale model upon which the activation spells are cast. If I were developing it I might just do it that way to simplify the creation and implementation process AND to add to the mystery and awe it could inspire among the mundane folk. Naturally frequent users would come to take it for granted but maybe not all.
Title: Re: Cogs, ha!
Post by: Nikodemus on August 14, 2007, 11:08:09 am
Yes, the magic is possible the way you describe, but if i got you right, and all the so called "cogs" are just some symbols, which let spells to work, then i don't get why they would ever need so many of them. If they can make something to rotate by itself, then what for build gearboxes all over the Winch, if these rotating thingies could have been directly in the point where needed, probably many on one axis, to increase the strength. And if they aren't supposed to rotate at all, then i still fail to see what for put so many of them in small areas all over the winch.
I been always thinking the magic is for the engine and the control descs they have there, with these monitors and stuff.

There are dwarves, blacksmiths and others who maintain the whole mechanism, even if they don't get how the whole thing works, they need to know a little, so that, while they maintain, they know how too. They need to know well how pieces of the mahinery works and so we should be allowed too. Mistery is good, but if it's mistery, because noone really disigned the mahinery, how the NPCs are supposed to say something with sense anyway? We have no way to learn it because of this. Why not while NPCs can and from IC PoV they are the same people as our characters.

As about the shape, i made animation:
http://psgrafika.republika.pl/cogs-l3.swf
from 1st to 10th frame and from 25th to 45th frame, the teeths aren't touching another (don't panic, its not 66% of the time ;P, the animation just slows down at the and and starts slow at the start, couldn't make it regular) Anyway, it turned out the cogs can still rotate quite well. Only because of the "touching of the teeths" which isn't occuring, the cogs work in fact irregurly (to hard for me to animate it well) more than http://psgrafika.republika.pl/cogs-l1.swf for instance. This means constant speeding and slowing up, which is bad.
I believe that because of the force each cog is causing to another (if they ever were supposed to rotate ;P) and the friction, the teeths tips will get used up and you get a cog more or less of this: http://psgrafika.republika.pl/cogs.swf shape. And you get big clearance, because the cogs weren't designed this way.
A good alternative for 3D designer is http://psgrafika.republika.pl/cogs-l1.swf as it saves up some face, put leaves the principle.
It would be suprising if they didn't know in Yliakum, that cogs get used up this way, especially that they didn't invent it like 10 years ago. There is the waterwheel in BD and it's qute old. If it's supposed to move up some simple mahinery, there are needed at least a few cogs. I assume that they figured out since the first implementations, that the cog can't have o sharp teeth tips.

If there was a chain, they would work well with it, but there is none and they look like they should work directly one with another.
Title: Re: Cogs, ha!
Post by: Jeraphon on August 14, 2007, 05:36:30 pm
So you're trying to find an IC reason why someone in the art department doesn't have engineering knowledge? :)
Title: Re: Cogs, ha!
Post by: bilbous on August 14, 2007, 05:55:45 pm
It could just be that the cogs are there to make it look like the engineers actually do something but that it is a complete scam and the winch is all automatic. Most inhabitants will have no idea what it all is and wouldn't even know who or what to ask to get real answers.
Title: Re: Cogs, ha!
Post by: Nikodemus on August 14, 2007, 06:51:26 pm
Quote from: Jeraphon on August 14, 2007, 05:36:30 pm
So you're trying to find an IC reason why someone in the art department doesn't have engineering knowledge? :)
I suppose its the first thing people like discuss on. What i tried to do with this thread most of all, is bring attention of those without enginering skills and do things right next time. Its not even that much of enginering problem, it should be a common knowledge. Cogs are everywhere!
I also proposed those without the knowledge, to let design things they have somehow completly no idea about, to someone else. So that modelling, they know how.
Would you model a tavern without idea what is a tavern, what should be inside? No, one should try to search about it, if he don't know yet. Same with cogs. It's a basic knowledge. When you model a house, if you modelled it without a roof, would it be ok?


Most people indeed give a $#!& about it, if something makes sense or not, but it s a domain of a RPG. You can roleplay there, whanever you want and if there are graphics to support it, they have to support it everything. Sure it takes time, but who said developing a RPG is easy? Otherwise Diablo is RPG because you can RP there.... a warrior who fight! and warlock who both figh and cast spells! and... thats all... :]
But this is what happens if one define a RPG as a place where you can RP only limited amount of activities.


Title: Re: Cogs, ha!
Post by: Pizzasgood on August 14, 2007, 09:55:03 pm
About the common knowledge bit.  I agree that it's the type of thing that should be obvious, but you'd be surprised how many people, when asked to draw a bicycle, leave out the chain and gears.  On the other hand, were I asked to draw a horse and rider, I'd probably leave out important items too (though not quite so essential as the bike chain).  What's common knowledge really depends on who you ask.

The only way I see to justify the current cogs is if there's a magic "extension", which grows outward from the cogs to form a frictionless and highly durable "true-cog" shape.  Personally, I'd rather just write it off as innocent ignorance and hope the modeler sees this thread.
Title: Re: Cogs, ha!
Post by: eldoth_terevan on August 14, 2007, 09:57:57 pm
I think things like this should be immediately addressed with the 1.01 update to the client...
Title: Re: Cogs, ha!
Post by: Nikodemus on August 14, 2007, 09:59:58 pm
Quote from: eldoth_terevan on August 14, 2007, 09:57:57 pm
...addressed with the 1.01 update to the client...
You are depressing me :]
Title: Re: Cogs, ha!
Post by: eldoth_terevan on August 14, 2007, 10:31:56 pm
Hah! I liked Bilbous' reply too... its just a scam to keep the guys at Hydlaa Public Works in a paycheck. ;)
Title: Re: Cogs, ha!
Post by: Jeraphon on August 14, 2007, 11:49:47 pm
Quote
Personally, I'd rather just write it off as innocent ignorance and hope the modeler sees this thread.

Talad to the white courtesy phone, please, Talad to the white courtesy phone.
Title: Re: Cogs, ha!
Post by: Karyuu on August 15, 2007, 12:12:06 am
Cherppow created the model, and seeing as how he hasn't been around in a while, we'll have to sit tight and bring it up again when (if..?) he returns.