PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Jurrel on August 14, 2007, 03:44:14 pm
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Mining rates are at a all time low. I am told by Gms to make a report. I was told this was probably not on purpose. I have level 20 in mining and I strike about one out of seven times. I would really appreciate an answer as to what is goig on. It is too easy to say that the game is in developement and that where testers. I do know this and try my best to help the team any way I can.o A real answer would be refreshing. Thank you.
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Too many miners deplete the resources faster than expected?
Are you talking generally across all mines or the ulber gold field or other specific lodes? Is it possible you have been mining on the edge of the deposits? Just a couple questions that might help you get an answer. I can't say I have done much mining lately myself.
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The reduction of gold mining ratio was done on purpose. It brought forth too much income and therefore has been reduced.
Not a bug, not a mistake. Feature.
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Well maybe i can help here. The following is a quote aproved by settings. I hope this answers your questions.
"we are trying to balance the implemented features constantly, including the mining of ressources. review has shown that it was not rare enough in regards of consistency with the settings, thus it was decided to reduce the availability of the gold by mining."
There you go.
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7 times to hit gold at level 20? Seems a bit drastic if you aks me. I mean I am level 3 right now, meaning that the chances of hitting pay dirt will be more than slim. I do agree though that gold mines were a very lucrative source of income, probably too lucrative.
Have you thought about simply reducing the price for gold ore, or introducing differently sized chunks? I would experience it to be a lot less depressing finding small chunks every once in a while rather than a single big chunk after 25 attempts, even if the net amount is the same.
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Have you thought about simply reducing the price for gold ore,
Yes. Yes we have. :)
Have you thought of mining other metals? :detective:
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My bad, of course you have :P
How about differently sized chunks? It will make things more complicated, but also more interesting and less frustrating ;)
As for other metals: of course I have. But these require processing in order to fill my purse. I can do some processing now, but only because mining gold provided me with enough cash to finance my training ;)
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Wow! Thank you Hanix for responding as well as everyone else. Now I have the unpleasant task of telling my guild the bad news. As long as the price of training, weapons, and armor do not change it will be difficult at best to play the game. I will try my best to keep our new members from being discouraged. I am hoping a new preciouse metal was added to the game. The search begins. The changes have always worked out in the past however hard the initial shock is. I will trust your judgment and appreciate the answer. It does make a difference to the players who care about the game to know whats going on and why. Thank you for being upfront.
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I think we all need to remember that balancing an economy like this would be difficult at best. The way it was, no-one was mining anything other than gold. Yet, people are still crafting. Who supplies the iron and coal? What about people making silver weapons? Who supplies the ore?
I think that crafting could use a little tweaking. Why is no-one buying iron and coal? Do the crafters need to be mining or smelting gold to pay for their training? I think it is too necessary to have mining skills at the moment, it shouldn't be the profession that everyone has to learn IMHO.
[EDIT]
Currently, Harnquist pays:
Iron Ore 0.33 tria/kg
Coal Lump 1.00 tria/kg
Silver Ore 10.67 tria/kg
Gold Ore 40 tria/kg
I think it should be more like:
Iron Ore 10 tria/kg
Coal Lump 15 tria/kg (should be easier to mine though)
Silver Ore 20 tria/kg
Gold Ore 40 tria/kg
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This will cause a broader distance between newer players and advanced ones.
Older users had already the advantage of NPC's not fighting back (pumping up some of their levels while training) and now with this reduction in mining will be impossible to have a decent progress.
It's a bit sad. :'(
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I've said before that I was in favor of a more realistic mining system, and I, for one, and very happy to see this step taken. As a newer player, I don't resent the loss of easy money at all! ^_^
If an economic unbalance does occur, I do prefer saladasalad's idea of raising iron prices. Things like this are delicate, though, and I think it is important that we, the players, understand that economics require a good bit of tweaking to be both fair and feasible.
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I've said before that I was in favor of a more realistic mining system, and I, for one, and very happy to see this step taken. As a newer player, I don't resent the loss of easy money at all! ^_^
If an economic unbalance does occur, I do prefer saladasalad's idea of raising iron prices. Things like this are delicate, though, and I think it is important that we, the players, understand that economics require a good bit of tweaking to be both fair and feasible.
Nice , very nice !I just trained today a level at Crystal Way . Are you curious how much i payed for that ? 36036 trias and 858 PPs . I am an advanced player so i can carry 47 gold ore . That means 28576 trias because i can process my gold . What do you say about a new player?
Are you sure about this "more realistic mining system" ?
Btw all game became unbalanced , dont you think ?
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Nice , very nice !I just trained today a level at Crystal Way . Are you curious how much i payed for that ? 36036 trias and 858 PPs . I am an advanced player so i can carry 47 gold ore . That means 28576 trias because i can process my gold . What do you say about a new player?
About a new player I say that their training won't cost nearly that much, because cost increases with levels.
Regarding NPCs not fighting back: this problem keeps appearing every once in a while, and it is instantly exploited by almost everyone online at that time (can you say "cheaters"?). That's what you get when you make PPs and "lvl" the reason for playing, but don't be sad, you'll likely witness other bugs to abuse / exploit in time. Fair play does find it's limits whereever people can get away without it.
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Btw all game became unbalanced , dont you think ?
I tend to agree there. But isn't that more of a reason to start somewhere with searching for balance? :)
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"About a new player I say that their training won't cost nearly that much, because cost increases with levels."
Try to make a new char and try to do Metallurgy at level 20 with this new rules . And do that with this "wonderfull new system" implemented at iron and coal mines(dont forget gold mines) , furnace , stock casting and , not in the last , in inventory . Dare you ?...
Let's see what remains for us in this game :
- if i want to fight i must do that in arena (laggy , laggy , laggy)
- i cant keep my swords in hands because i can hurt somebody (btw i can interact with another caracter only in war or duel)
- Laanx tell me to learn some crafting . Show me please one crafter which made a spoon or another object except , swords , axe , daggers etc . But the war and the fight became prohibited .
Oh yes , role-play , all the time . Right , is necesary . But the whole game become a theatre , talk , talk , talk . No action no possibility to train ( without money you can't train) , no adventure , nothing but talk .
I loved this game for realism . It wasn't a game , it was another planet , another world but a real world . From now the realism is gone . What remains ? Just a game , boring and hard to play...
Sorry about my words but im realy sad . A wonderfull world have been destroyed ....Why?
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Try to make a new char and try to do Metallurgy at level 20 with this new rules . And do that with this "wonderfull new system" implemented at iron and coal mines(dont forget gold mines) , furnace , stock casting and , not in the last , in inventory . Dare you ?...
Magic and metallurgy are two very different things. To train magic, which the reply was aimed at, you only need a glyph and a trainer. Metallurgy is an advanced area that hardly is something a new player should be doing immediately.
Regardless, level 20 itself is pretty high already IMO, so obviously the cost will be significantly higher than when you start from around 0. This also is expected, and therefore I don't see how your post applies to my post?
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I believe the minning hit/miss ratio is highly off kilt myself...when someone at level 20 has just a good a chance as someone at lvl 2 or even lvl 10..it's a bit non-realistic IMHO. Wouldn't it make more sense if the higher your lvl the more productive the outcome? Instead of having everyone hit as often?
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not only are the mining rates low on gold, but what is up with "being too tired"? its a message brought up by having (confirm?) less than 30% mental stamina. how much thought really goes in to swinging a pick? most of the time workers dont even think about mining when they are working (in RL at least). plus, i can barely get 4 tries in before i get glowing red letters telling me im too mentally worn out to swing my pick. i know im going to hear about "autominers" or something like it, and thats no excuse.
the rate decrease seems like punishment for making money...whats wrong with making lots of money if everyone is able to make the same amount? sure it could imbalance other skills, but, whats skills? skills that have not yet been implemented. what else do people spend time doing, herbal? realistically, yes, people have professions, but you have to remember this game is still in the making. so while it seems things are being balanced out, a lot of work is done and nothing is accomplished.
i hope you dont see tis as an attack, just some criticism
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Truthfully, I think more effort could be put into making mining fun, and less into making it ballanced. I tried mining for about ten minutes once. Pure dreadful. I deleted that character.
I do think it would be better if rates were much higher, or even for every try, but reduce the size of the ore, or the mieral content. They -only- affect high skill in mining should have is the ablility to dig faster, and knock bigger chunks out of the wall.
Digging- low level.
"You got some gold dust."
"You got some gold dust."
"You got a small nugget!"
"You found nothing."
"You got some gold dust."
High level is about the same, just with a higher chance of breaking out bigger nuggets, and you can dig faster.
But again...that does not sound like a heck of a lot of fun to me. And yes, I do have a better idea. ;)
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Pretty much what I was getting at earlier.
On a different matter: leveling up is now a complete pain and takes literally decades, since you only gain a very small amount of "practical knowledge" (green bar lengthens) after a successful hit. In my not so humble opinion that "practical knowledge" should be given in much bigger chunks.
I started off as a level 3, because my father was a miner, but I truly pitty those who are level 0 and want to learn mining. As things are at they moment, they will not be able to learn it ever.
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I started off as a level 3, because my father was a miner, but I truly pitty those who are level 0 and want to learn mining. As things are at they moment, they will not be able to learn it ever.
Good point. I think that needs to be addressed.
when someone at level 20 has just a good a chance as someone at lvl 2 or even lvl 10..it's a bit non-realistic IMHO.
Same here.
the rate decrease seems like punishment for making money...whats wrong with making lots of money if everyone is able to make the same amount?
The prices within the player-economy are vastly different than those from the NPC-economy, plus prices of specific items (also some that will be introduced) should be within a range of acceptable prices, set by PS settings.
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well, I stopped mining myself a while ago, because Tolol is a Metallurgist and Crafter and no Miner at all (although he had mined much more in the past than many of you will have ... ;D )
I started buying whatever I needed ...
and just as a kind of information:
I will soon have to pay higher prices for the Ore I need because it has become hard to get some.
(I am often not fast enough if anyone offers some ... ???)
So I think this is what will happen more and more in the future ... I guess we will have iron and coal rising more than gold because the gold price is limited by NPC prices for what I can craft out of gold.
But Iron and Coal ... Yay ... Steel price will raise, weopon prices will ...
and it won't help anything ... because the money-flood is over.
And hard work will not be worth a .........
okay ... We'll see
I yesterday tried to auction some "things" (no gold, no iron, no coal) ... what do you think ?
No bidders except one ...
The people of hydlaa are keeping the money in their sacks because they can not be sure how they will earn money in the future (and how much)
I think this is not much of a problem ... but it could become one very soon
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I don't think that's the reason auctions go bad ... there just isn't much worth investing in. Weapons only need to be replaced every so often and they can be gotten by almost everyone as loot or cheaply bought from NPC's. And day to day life is expensive enough with all the training costs. People don't have the chance to save their tria up unless they chose to stop training.
The only stable economic flow we see now is in resources (steel and gold) because no NPC's offer that and there is a very high demand.
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PROs:
What... that is one of the main reasons auctions go bad.. if you did have any money you cant buy anything...i watched the same guy trying to sell a seduction weapon for 4 days now at 120 circles... he is still selling it.. 30,000 for a sword is ridiculous.. unless i can live in it and ride it like a mount.. because i could buy a home for 30k.. or at least a tent.. but i understand what the Dev are trying to do .. it is simple economics.. lower the amount of trias in circulation by cutting off the gold supply is a good way to raise the value of the tria.. The only problem is that Playing Characters don't understand that or else they are dumb thinking a sword is worth 30k.. if you think a sword is worth 30k then you shouldn't mind paying 400 trias for an apple or how about 50k for a glyph from the magic shop.. magic is way more expensive that some sword right.. it is a smart move by the DEVs but it sucks for us..... but if everyone could realize that trias are harder to come by then maybe the price of things will go down.. but i doubt it!
CONs:
NOW WHAT SUCKS ABOUT THIS..... Anyone who can smelt gold knows of what i speak... with availability of gold being lower the price from miners has come up to 500 in some cases... this means on a load of 20 ores i make 2000 trias.. WATCH OUT big money... if you cant tell i am being sarcastic .. I SPENT MANY A DAYS IN FRONT OF A HOT FURNACE LEARNING TO SMELT GOLD JUST FOR SOME NEWB WITH A SWORD TO MAKE MORE MONEY THAN ME BY KILLING SOME TREAPORS AND SELLING THEIR ORGANS........ WTF.. are the devs telling me that all the hour i spent learning to smelt gold is a waste of time.. looks that way.. so i fear that metallurgy might not be worth going after anymore..if i would have know this was coming i wouldn't have wasted all that time...
LEARNING A TRADE IS A WASTE OF TIME!!!! if a newb with a sword can make more than you.. an alternative money making source needs to be implemented.. like gemcutting or introduce PLATINUM back into the game....
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whats max mining skill?
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20 afaik
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The problem is (probably already stated) that only the rate of gold mining as been affected. To be realistic, and fair, miners have to raise prices. Thats fine, if the other end of the rope doesnt get ripped off. I expect that usually, goldsmiths like orino sell their products to NPC's. If you cause the price of ore to rise, the price of all the products in which the ore is used must rise as well. That has not happened. So, people have stopped using ore to make products. With no demand for the ore, people have started selling it to merchants for much less than they would if they were to sell it to characters. Because of the loss of profit, miners will quit and moved on to something else. With no gold miners, whats the point of gold?
See how such a minor tweak can mess with the economy rather than stabilize it? Or maybe the stabilization that is being thought of is to not have a gold economy at all.
Another thing, i have heard that the sink in gold mining rates were meant to keep people from making inordinate amounts of money and imbalancing the economy. If the miners just raise prices proportionally, they will still make the same amount of money. But, this will only happen if it is made so that it is profitable to buy ores and make them into something more valuable. If nothing is done, the first paragraph's scenario will happen and we can just forget about gold.
The Apocalypse is near :o
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Drastically reduce the cost of training, and -perhaps- slow the rate of training, and much will be solved.
The economy is not based on a product right now. It is based on the need to aquire a service (training). The high cost of training is because of the high 'levels' one can get to now, and the exponential rate at which it increases. Players -have- to get HUGE amounts of money to train these high levels. Once they get there, though, they still have the ability to make that huge amount of money, but have nothing to spend it on. That floods the market.
Crafted or looted swords costed a lot not because they are worth more, or because gold was so common, but because it takes an insane amount of money to get the training needed to make them.
Now that gold has been nerfed, you will see some effects that I am sure have not been considered. One is that people will no longer be willing to help new players out as much. Instead of keeping those lower end looted weapons to give to newbies, folks are going to start selling everything they have to pay for training. Not only that, folks are going to be spending more time out in the mines or camps trying to get the money to spend on training, leaving less time to interact with the enviroment and other players (AKA roleplaying). Organizers of RPs will also have less tria to spread around for furthering their plans (Yes, it -does- take money to run an RP or organization). I know many a good rolepaying guild that bases their funds on gold so are going to have to spend more time mining or camping as well. With less example of good RP going on... well, you can gather what will happen.
So, until there is a way to fund roleplayers without taking up all of their time 'mining', then you can not take away the easy money. I saw the very same drop in RP when Platinum was dropped from the game.
/me starts to ponder economics...
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I am now brainstorming a little. It may or may not make sense ;) I will give an example in the end so please bear with me. ::)
The way I see it, the price of a product (product price) should be given by the total price of the raw materials of which it is composed (raw price), multiplied by a certain factor (effort).
( product price ) = effort * ( raw price )
That certain factor needs to be a function of the time invested in making the product (time) and the number of skill points required to produce this product (skill). I propose
( effort ) = f(time) * g(skill)
where f and g are functions.
As far as f is concerned, I propose:
f(time) = (1 + time) ^ (time const)
where time const is a constant bigger than 1 (e.g. 1.2), which needs to be determined. time could be in minutes for example.
As far as g is concerned, I propose:
g(skill) = (skill const) ^ (no. of skill points)
where skill const is a constant bigger than 1 (e.g. 1.3), which has the same value among similar skills, but needs to be determined. This formula just means that having a skill of 2 is more than twice the effort of having a skill of 1.
If one requires two or more skills, the respective g's should be added, but subtracting the number of additional skills required:
gtotal = g1 + g2 + g3 + ... + gn - (n - 1)
All this formula means is that requiring 3 different skills at level 2 is not as much effort as needing a single skill at a level of 6.
An example - Producing iron stock vs. producing steel stock:
Assuming that both iron and coal have a cost of 1 tria, the cost of resources is 10 in both cases.
( product price ) = effort * 10
Let's assume that the time needed for both products is 2 minutes, then
f(time=2) = (1 + 2)1.2 = 3.7
The skill required to make iron stock is 1 in metallurgy, so
g(skill=1) = 1.31 = 1.3
Therefore for iron
effort = 3.7 * 1.3 = 4.9
and
Price iron = 49 trias.
If one wants to produce steel stock, one needs a metallurgy skill of 5, so
g(skill=5) = 1.35 = 3.7
Therefore for steel
effort = 3.7 * 3.7 = 13.8
and
Price steel = 138 trias.
The way things are at the moment, both iron and steel sell for 60 trias at Harnquist's. In any case steel stock should be more expensive than iron stock.
Does this make sense at all or am I just being a useless geek :'(
I know this doesn't solve the mining problems. I could sit down and work out a similar formula for the price of getting the raw materials in the first place. If the devs think it is worth it I could also tidy this up and produce an easier to read version with pretty graphs and what not.
/edit: of course one would need to adjust the constants and maybe even skew the functions a little. This was just an example of how one could determine the prices.
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I like your formula, but it doesn't really help in this specific situation :)
As I said already (how many times?) we're changing the ressource rarity not because we're funny like that but because we have a bigger picture in mind.
If you are above 18 I invite you to apply to rules department in which you can apply all that what you thought of, but in compliance with the rest of the development :)
(see http://laanx.fragnetics.com/nexus/newapplicant.php)
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I would love to give you guys a hand. So yes, I have applied.
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I know that there are lots of skills that are on the list but don't do anything, so why do they have options that allow you to start with ranks in useless skills? For example, I have a character who was the son of a famous jeweler, so he has several ranks in the gemcutting skill, which is useless. I think that I'll just have to make a new character that's the same except with a different kind of father. But, back to the point, wouldn't it make more sense for them to make at least some of the skills that are currently inactive active. to balance the economy with other types of wares?
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the skills that are inactive are inactive becuase they haven't been developed yet. :)
*edit*
Since this has been established to not be a bug, moving thread and locking, as there are enough open threads about the same subject.