PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Waylander on August 17, 2007, 06:48:14 am
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This is more of a poll than anything. Hopefully a discussion.
As most of you know ( I hope :P ), Yliakum is a world created by gods which still hold some influence over it. I could go about and quote the setting a dozen times but, accepting this fact makes it simpler :P
Now, the question I ask you is:
How many of your characters are actively religious?
Only one of mine was so, I'm in no way trying to seem righteous, I'm just curious.
Edit: Before people attack me, this has nothing to do with Duraza's RP :P
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My current character, Suvok prays to Laanx now and then. He's not fanatical, but he regularly visits the Iron Temple.
An old character of mine called "Dalat" claimed to be a Prophet of Talad. It was technically within the settings as he was only making an unproven claim and people had the right to disbelieve him. He was deleted a couple of weeks ago but I might create him again at some point. As you have probably figured, he was pretty religious.
But yeah, that's about it.
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Well, Aeshion is a Bolia, so it goes without saying she avoids religion. Hyuken just kinda drifts along, and thinks all gods must be good. Though, he figures all folks are good on the inside as well. The only really religious character I have would be Janeous Creene, and he thinks all people in Hydlaa are heritics, and need to die.
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All my characters believe in the gods, all but Zan are also followers of either Talad or Laanx. Zan is more the "I'll folllow my own way" kinda guy but the others are religious people.
I've tried creating a Kran zealot once and instigating some conflict between Laanx and Talad worshippers but due to the huge amount of atheists that plan didn't go anywhere. Practically everyone he came across didn't even believe in the gods. (Which I personally found to be against the settings but hey :P)
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Phinehas is actively antagonistic towards the gods. He believes in them, and despises them.
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My currently main char is Black Flame... but that means I have no idea of what my "religion" is about because there's no info on this one... I make up everything in the end, trying to keep some mistery. Anyhow I still don't understand what Laanx and Talad are about. Also why there's no temple of Talad? And Black Flame temple or equivalent?
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Also why there's no temple of Talad? And Black Flame temple or equivalent?
The Black Flame is highly secretive and not spoken of openly because of their evil leanings.
There is a temple of Talad. It's just not implemented in the game.
Yet. :detective:
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but that means I have no idea of what my "religion" is about because there's no info on this one...
Read the settings.
After the departure of Laanx, a black flame appeared in Kadaikos. Everyone believed that it was a part of Laanx soul and was supposed to rule his people till his return. The black flame was sentient and easily took control of the people in Kadaikos.
Third epoch and very little information, but by no means none.
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I have one character who is very religious towards Talad. Because of it he only uses the Brown way as a representation of his loyalty and belief in the power of stone.
Besides him I had a couple characters (deleted) which served Laanx. Now a days thats my only religious character, my others are weird...
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My current character, Suvok prays to Laanx now and then. He's not fanatical, but he regularly visits the Iron Temple.
An old character of mine called "Dalat" claimed to be a Prophet of Talad. It was technically within the settings as he was only making an unproven claim and people had the right to disbelieve him. He was deleted a couple of weeks ago but I might create him again at some point. As you have probably figured, he was pretty religious.
But yeah, that's about it.
Dalat claimed to be the thousand year old son of Talad, if I remember correctly.
All my characters have some view of the gods unless they purposefully have no view. One of my characters has actually met Laanx and it had more than a small effect on his worldview.
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Very interesting, there are a couple characters from this thread that I want to meet now :P
Anyways, moving on. Do you think people are religious enough considering what we know of the settings?
By people I don't mean you or your characters, I mean the community of Yliakum that is roleplayed today.
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Already answerred that in my first post but to summarize it, not really no :P
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Well, I play a Dwarf and while my character knows well about Talad and Laanx and respects them both (Laanx for exploring the Stone Labyrinths and Talad for the shaping of the stone - both good Dwarven activities), he is not really religious for two main reasons:
1) He has not truly experienced any greater influence on his life or Yliakum as it is today from either of the gods and
2) When you're at work deep down in a mine and you suddenly hear that certain ominous creaking .. well, that is definitely NOT the best time to fall down on your knees and pray but rather to run like hell! And once you've made it safely out, there's no real need to thank the gods, as long as you haven't seen some miraculous hand holding up the shaft as you zoom by in any case. A real Dwarf knows that the ones to truly thank are the shorers, the mine planners, the geologists,...
(Yes, my character can be horribly realistic and literal-minded at times, possibly marking himself up as a viable target if the gods ever catch on to him... ;D)
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but that means I have no idea of what my "religion" is about because there's no info on this one...
Read the settings.
After the departure of Laanx, a black flame appeared in Kadaikos. Everyone believed that it was a part of Laanx soul and was supposed to rule his people till his return. The black flame was sentient and easily took control of the people in Kadaikos.
Third epoch and very little information, but by no means none.
So we are Laanx-ists under other form? I'd rather think the Black Flame has more to do with the Black Crystal and the presence that some claim to feel in DR.
I think also that there are very few Lemurs around (maybe because lack of skin or maybe because they aren't very strong) but others choose Black Flame among other reasons because they want to be strong in the Dark Way (no matter they never were in Kadaikos). My main char is not interested in Laanx at all (is a diaboli) but is most intrigued by the Black Flame, whom he believes is an unknown god of mighty power and deep mystery (and not Laanx).
I wonder also if it has something to do with the Xacha secret god and the Tower, or if these are two different gods. There's a lot unexplained in such divinity/-ies and it's precisely this obscurity what attracts me and, specialy, my main char. But I'd like to know... or I could start to make up things.
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my charactor doesnt care. either way. it doesnt effect him to lean one side or the other.
it only matters when he can make a profit off of whichever side.
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Dalat claimed to be the thousand year old son of Talad, if I remember correctly.
Yeah, he said he was his son, grown from 'the soil of Talad'
But there was too many holes in his argument to go on with him.
The settings highlights that there is no established theory about the creation of Yliakum apart from that of the two gods, Laanx and Talad.
This is very similar to medieval times, when there were no other theories than the Earth being created in seven days by God. Because of this, religion was taken as fact and the bible was not questioned. The select few that questioned the faith were considered sinners and outcasts, religion governed medieval life. However, in Yliakum, most characters do not believe in the gods, yet this situation is very similar to the Medieval period. This is supposed to be a medieval fantasy. I think there should be more god-fearing characters around to promote a bit more realism.
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I agree with Suvok ... but the problem is that in reality, we players are generally not so religious anymore so it's very tricky to play religious characters. Personally I never minded a challenge though :P
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Yeah, he said he was his son, grown from 'the soil of Talad'
But there was too many holes in his argument to go on with him.
But he was too persistant to ignore, especially with all the OOC reminders like Dalat says: [You don't have to believe this character if you don't want to!]
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Draklar is a nature worshipper I guess. Doesn't feel presence of Talad or Laanx.
If I actually had time to play PS I would probably create a fanatic of Laanx character... Waylander should see that one coming ;)
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Yeah, he said he was his son, grown from 'the soil of Talad'
But there was too many holes in his argument to go on with him.
But he was too persistant to ignore, especially with all the OOC reminders like Dalat says: [You don't have to believe this character if you don't want to!]
Yeah, it was pretty annoying how i'd get about 5 /tells at once telling me that I couldn't do this and that it was against the settings. But I mostly kept the OOC reminders to /tells.
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Draklar is a nature worshipper I guess. Doesn't feel presence of Talad or Laanx.
If I actually had time to play PS I would probably create a fanatic of Laanx character... Waylander should see that one coming ;)
And he would be awesome, I'm sure :P
Many people don't seem to think there is enough of a setting, examples of this are (not pointing fingures, of course) Printh, Dark Empire, Vaalnor and Duraza's book (if he means it to be not a fake, which I doubt). And yet, much of the setting is completely ignored.
A good 75% of people should be very religious. All of the Lemurs, Xacha and Kran. Only Klyros and Diaboli seem to be justifiably atheistic.
Discuss! :P
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if your born into a catholic family. does that mean you will practice the faith forever?\
if the books say there is a god, does that mean you will believe?
if someone says they are the son of talad, does that mean they are going against settings?
1. no
2. no
3. not in the least bit.
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if your born into a catholic family. does that mean you will practice the faith forever?\
Usually yes.
Sometimes you'll change faith into another.
On rare occassions you'll denounce all the gods.
All the same one born into atheist family may become religious.
90% of population in my country was baptised Catholic; 80% of the population is considered to be practising Catholics.
All the rest is usually different faiths, while amount of atheists is minimal. Much depends on the influence a Church takes and the mentality of the population.
Let's just remind ourselves the mentality of Yliakum's people is that of the middle ages, not modern times. Let's remind ourselves that the population has wide access to magic, which opens their eyes to the supernatural. Let's remind ourselves that the temple of Talad tends to spawn strange phenomena, considered to be miracles and available for anyone to see.
Waylander's 75% still stands as a valid estimation.
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It's kind of hard to not believe in Talads existence, looking at the temple he built all by himself.
On a side note: Draklar, i think you are overtrusting the statistics ;P
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It's not overtrusting if it can be backed up by closer observations.
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/me still disagrees ;P
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i know a great deal of people now adays that denounce gods. especially catholics. seeing as how its a very bad religion. but we wont get into that now.
and u say take it back to midevil times. what about jesus? he did miracles in front of peoples eyes. and people still denounced him as the son of god. well that was before midevil times. so lets speed things up. remember the dark ages? how many people you think put their faith and believe there was a god when times were so unbearable. then you have the renaissance where man.. god god fixed the problems and brought mankind into a whole new era of a better life a better time.
you think people still believed in god during this? after witnessing the horrible times of the darkages and then seeing the only chance at a greater time was in the hands of man?
magic is not proof of gods. its supernatural, but its powers harnessed by the world we live in.
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they denouced, because they had their own gods to believe in and because of that he obviously couldn't be the gods son.
There your character(?) believs and worships no gods, but he denies the knowledge of theirs existence. Its completly different matter.
Besides the example you gave maybe isn't real at all.
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its an example. of how people react to situations. not everyone blindly follows. and most give up hope when there is no hope. especially when there parents and their grandparents and their great grandparents died a miserable life with no hope.
i forget how long but the dark ages lasted quite some time.
my situation was not what i was talking about. it was more about all religion in Yliakum. and my character didnt deny the existence and he believed in the gods. he blamed them for the problems we faced. which is why he turned on them.
and i dont know who claimed to be talads son but. all i stated was it wasnt against the settings. people do lie. and to have a world without lies isnt a world.
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remember the dark ages? how many people you think put their faith and believe there was a god when times were so unbearable.
Quite a lot considering otherwise you had to deal with holy inquisition (granted, this relates more to the middle ages than dark ages) and alike fun stuff.
In general the medieval times were ones when people richly believed in magic, monsters and gods. The Church also had a great control over the life of commoners.
When times are unbearable people turn to gods in order to find help or reason for their suffering.
During times of Jesus people didn't denounce gods. They simply didn't feel like approving new one when they already had their own. Especially since this new god portrayed their own as false idols. He was also rejected from political reasons (the new god didn't aprove the godly nature of Roman emerors). That Jesus made miracles isn't even an argument, since it's a matter of belief.
Edit: Dark Ages lasted for 5 centuries. From fifth to tenth.
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See, THIS is why I hate discussions of in-game religion.
It ALWAYS collapses into discussion of real life religion, and those are arguments which nobody can ever win.
Keep your examples to Yliakum.
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How to get the new player to care about religion?
Seems a vital element of roleplay . . .
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if your born into a catholic family. does that mean you will practice the faith forever?\
Usually yes.
Sometimes you'll change faith into another.
On rare occassions you'll denounce all the gods.
All the same one born into atheist family may become religious.
90% of population in my country was baptised Catholic; 80% of the population is considered to be practising Catholics.
All the rest is usually different faiths, while amount of atheists is minimal. Much depends on the influence a Church takes and the mentality of the population.
99% of the population in my country was baptised Catholic; maybe 20% of them remain being so... ::)
... though many others "pretend" for special events like weddings and funerals.
(Other sects, excepting immigrants, are extremely rare: the drift is towards agnosticism, personal beliefs, atheism...)
Let's just remind ourselves the mentality of Yliakum's people is that of the middle ages, not modern times. Let's remind ourselves that the population has wide access to magic, which opens their eyes to the supernatural. Let's remind ourselves that the temple of Talad tends to spawn strange phenomena, considered to be miracles and available for anyone to see.
Yes indeed... but magic is one thing and thinking it belongs to this or that god is different. You can perfectly think that Laanx' priests (the temple of Talad is yet to be added) use magic to justify their beliefs (the same that Wiccans and Chaotists think often of official religion leaders). Magic can have other sources than the official god/s.
Also and this is important: unlike in European Middle Ages, there's no one single official religion... but at least two (Talad and Laanx may share a mythology but they are also sort of rivals). This resembles more the case of proto-historical and ancient polytheisms. Additionally you have other gods: the Black Flame (whateve it is) and the gods that the different races brought from their countries of origin, probably many gods each of them. This is not explicitly dealt with in the background story so it's open for creativity, really. One of thems seems very important: the mysterious Xacha god of the windowless tower... another may be the presence felt in DR, which might be the same behind the Black Flame mystery... or not. There's a lot to imagine and discuss (specially IC) about this issue of gods and religions.
Btw, does anybody knows what do the sewers' fanatics worship?
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Btw, does anybody knows what do the sewers' fanatics worship?
Yes.
Also, Maju, I repeat, keep your examples to Yliakum. Real-life religion shouldn't be factoring into these discussions in any way.
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How to get the new player to care about religion?
Seems a vital element of roleplay . . .
Game mechanics is my favoured answer. Like make characters that often pray and perform missions (crusades) for their chosen god be granted protection from the given deity, sometimes saving the unlikely adventurer from life-threatening oppresions. If someone wants to go all atheist, he can just die. His problem.
Of course this argument fails horribly when characters are given unlimited "lives" anyway ;)
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How to get the new player to care about religion?
Seems a vital element of roleplay . . .
Game mechanics is my favoured answer. Like make characters that often pray and perform missions (crusades) for their chosen god be granted protection from the given deity, sometimes saving the unlikely adventurer from life-threatening oppresions. If someone wants to go all atheist, he can just die. His problem.
Of course this argument fails horribly when characters are given unlimited "lives" anyway ;)
Yeah. If game mechanis somehow tied into religion it would kinda make more players recognize it. Like maybe Sharven won't teach magic to students who haven't become a follower of Laanx. Special "holy weapons" (even if the effects aren't added yet but I'm sure they are supposed to be put in the game) could maybe be granted after doing some kind of religious quests. The little things do help people to recognize or want to understand the bigger ones. ;)
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so lets bring the examples to in game.
your charactor is either born or came to this land somehow. and only knows about the gods from what he/she reads.
they have never seen the face of the gods and spoken to them.
so not believing in a god is fine.
after reading all the documentation about gods and seeing temples. and seeing your life is horrible and now way to fix it. i dont see how wrong it is to blame the gods.
also making up lies to get the people on your side. thats no way against settings. just because something isnt true or goes against the settings or "history". doesnt mean its bad rp and ooc. if i say to someone " there are no gods. some random person built the temples and tricked you all" of course it goes against settings. but how is that ooc. its a lie. something that needs to be part of yliakum.
also in the middle ages people were forced to a religion. doesnt mean they believed in it. the church had complete control? so say a king backs the religion and says they are right whatever they say. that means everyone has to follow the church right? you go against the church you go against the king. you die. but thats not yliakum
yliakum is a world with history of gods but no actions. so anything people say about them can be true or not.
untill a charactor is corrected by one of the gods themselves. then you cannot say they are lying or not.
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See Jeraphon?
Discussing religion with ingame examples is even worse. That is, considering much of the crucial material wasn't introduced ingame yet :P
But as far as introduced examples go:
Seeing that the creature refused to follow his orders, Laanx became enraged and destroyed the creature by whispering a single word.
His priests are all zealots
"The term Zealot, in Hebrew kanahi (קנאי, frequently used in plural form, קנאים), means one who is jealous on behalf of God."
My, my. What a peaceful world, that Yliakum.
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I'd like to refer you to the Great Inconsistency Hunt, then, Draklar. Inconsistencies in the religions of the game are just as valid as all other inconsistencies.
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Well I don't see any inconsistencies in religions so far. Besides the one where Laanx is refered as he and she in a single sentence.
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wheres that quote from draklar??
i hope its not from settings. nothing like using a hebrew term for the world of Yyliakum.. oh how do we tell the difference now?
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Is it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law
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The simple fact is that the actual setting of PlaneShift can include cultural beliefs. If the devs want people to believe that the Azure Sun is a giant transformer, regardless of whether or not it is, they can do that.
To go against cultural beliefs is a very, very rare thing. Humans conform, even today non-conformists are actually just conforming to the new trend :P
If you grew up in a village where everybody believed in god, you would, too. Growing up in a catholic family increases the chances of being catholic dramatically, imagine that without having any atheists around.
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In fact both diaboli and klyros are natural born atheists/agnostics: it's in the settings. Some may have other beliefs but most should be in that line (though most diaboli I know of are Black Flame because of the enhanced Dark Way and affinity to the Black Crystal).
The huge ammount of gods (not just Laanx and Talad, but also all the ethnic gods that came with the different races, plus the Black Flame) should make a lot of literate people to have some sort of detachement from religion (skepticism) or follow religions based either in their parents' beliefs or in persuasion. Not being many prophets around (Phostle aside), the second seems less likely.
Personally I think that the conventional citizens should be:
1. Talad followers: this should be the main trend, as Talad created the city and all that. Talad is like the "good god", so he should be the ost popular. The lack of a Talad Temple (so far) kind of distorts this... as there's no visible monuments to Talad in all Yilakum, in spite of his mythical importance. Krans should be almost always "Taladists".
2. Laanx followers: this should be less strong but still a powerful trend, specially among Lemurs (there are few lemurs around though).
3. Ethnic religions: the several "foreign" races brought with them their own gods. We know little of them from the settings, but many dwarves, elven and humans should be mostly interested in the gods of their ancestors. An important mysterious ethnic god is that of the Xacha (again few Xacha around, but it seems they have strong connections with the government).
4. Black Flame: should be minoritary among Lemurs and rare among others, yet many choose it because they are attracted to chaos, evil and/or the mysteries of darkness (and also because of the extra points re. DW).
5. Agnostic/atheists/skeptics: this should be the main trend among diaboli and (I suspect) klyros. They definitively should not be Laanxists in most cases (as per the settings).
Doubts:
6. Klyros: were they originally atheists/unreligious like the diaboli or rather they had their own ethnic god(s)
7. Ynnwm and other mixed race people (many race chars are supposed to be mixed anyhow): they should be divided in several loyalties, including a strong trend towards skepticism ("atheism"). Ynnwm could (mostly) have been raised in aheism (diaboli parent) and either an elven ethnic religion or one of the mainstream ones (Talad, Laanx) (elfic parent). Other mixed chars could have their own mixed raisings and hence open choice re. beliefs.
8. Polytheism: such a large choice of gods should lead to a tolerant polytheist society, in which some worship/venerate one god, some do the same with several and others are just detached from religion. The lack of temples (other than Laanx') seems to hinder this polytheistic activity, really (and in general to hinder religion in general). There's very little in-game mechanics associated to religion, anyhow, and little understanding of what it may mean.
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Hearing this, Laanx went to these men personally; he didn't want to run the risk of loosing people that could be valuable. He found a few hundred of these people. They were desperate, almost without food, and resigned to ending the glorious history of their race in a moist alley. Laanx revealed himself of them and showed them all his power. The Xacha followed him without exception and he became their god.
Xacha's would be Laanx. As would Lemurs.
Kran would be Talad, that's for sure.
It has been 750 years since Yliakum was settled, most of the old religions would have died out by now, I imagine.
In the City of the Azure Sun, the people increased their population and their knowledge under Talad's silent guidance. Many of them - except the Diaboli - slowly gave up the faith in their previous gods to worship the god of the glyphs.
Like so.
I do agree about the diaboli and Klyros, though.
Black Flame should be near inexistant in Yliakum from what I see.
I completely agree with your last point.
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i hope its not from settings. nothing like using a hebrew term for the world of Yyliakum.. oh how do we tell the difference now?
Oh my, you're right! That's outrageous!
Quick, what other cultural heritage should we remove from the settings? Italic? Greek? Germanic? Maybe we should remove all setting material, as (Laanx protect us!) it just may turn out that the language we all use here borrowed countless terms from all sorts of world cultures!
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Wait...
Are you saying that over time the English language has evolved and adopted new words, some of which are from different cultures, and given them definitions of their own...
I don't know if I can accept that new words are added to the language...
I'll google it just to make sure.
:P
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Are you saying that over time the English language has evolved and adopted new words, some of which are from different cultures, and given them definitions of their own...
It's crazy, I know! :o
Edit: In reference to actually intelligent posts:
I don't really see where the settings portrays Klyros as clear agnostics/atheists. The race is obviously traditionalistic. They stand by such values as honour or brotherhood. All the same with culture like that they would probably much rather die than be forced to do anything against their will. I think that's why they refused to follow Laanx. Atheism isn't a good explanation when the godly powers are proven with many Klyros being murdered and tortured.
As to Talad's worship being the main one, I'm not sure. The faith is filled with harmony, passive. It takes what comes and uses it to the best effect. Laanx priests on the other hand tend to be zealots. They should show much more will to fight for new followers and even take shady (the masked god) measures to achieve their goals.
It's also a question how Diaboli can be atheists if they avoid temples at all costs and have holy items damage them greatly. It would appear they are of supernatural origin themselves. Would demonic be too convenient?
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It seemed their pride did not allow them to bend to any god.
True, I wouldn't called them atheistic, more they don't worship any god, though I'm sure they believe they exist.
Talad worship would have been the many ages ago in Yliakum history, as for now, I'd imagine that Laanx would have slowly taken over since the temples were created. I'd give them about equal portions but with Talad having a bit more.
Of course, this is all for the settings devs to decide.
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thats the whole difference some people can't see at all.
Unlike our real world, there everyone knows the gods exist, but not everybody worships them. I have no idea why some people there argue their characters don't believe.
It's like i said: North America doesn't exist, coz i never been there. I never saw it and all the people, media are liers^^
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Hearing this, Laanx went to these men personally; he didn't want to run the risk of loosing people that could be valuable. He found a few hundred of these people. They were desperate, almost without food, and resigned to ending the glorious history of their race in a moist alley. Laanx revealed himself of them and showed them all his power. The Xacha followed him without exception and he became their god.
Xacha's would be Laanx. As would Lemurs.
That's for the history... but then there is the issue of the windowless tower that somebody posted had gathered in-game (from NPCs) that was built by the Xacha and is apparently related to an obscure god of them and they and their god seem to have excellent relations with the Octarchy. Their power is such that their tower is quite higher than that of Laanx' temple, what the followers of Laanx hate.
So it seems that the Xacha have their own god or gods (besides Laanx) and that the windowless tower is directly related to that discrete faith.
It has been 750 years since Yliakum was settled, most of the old religions would have died out by now, I imagine.
You imagine... but you may be wrong. There's literature over there that says the opposite (check in DR library for instance).
In any case, it allows for quite a bit of creativity by players, who may choose to follow this or that belief, not just the main offcial ones... but also any dwarven, elfic or human pre-migration belief. It wouldn't be against the settings if someone worshipped Baal, Artemis or Shiva (human gods) or maybe an entity taken, say, from "The Lord of the Rings" (as we don't know much of where did humans, elfs and dwarves came from).
In the City of the Azure Sun, the people increased their population and their knowledge under Talad's silent guidance. Many of them - except the Diaboli - slowly gave up the faith in their previous gods to worship the god of the glyphs.
"Many of them", right. I already said that most should be Taladists. But many others would be other things: Laanx, ethnic beliefs, even a few Black Flame.
Black Flame should be near inexistant in Yliakum from what I see.
Yes as such... but the mysteries associated with Darkness exist (they are very real in DR: Black Crsytal, the "presence"...) and there's a lot to create in relation with it. Of course there should probably esotheric (secret, semi-secret) sects... but even Laanx religion is that way, as only priests seem able to read the Book of Names (and the settings are not explicit about that either).
The settings may be unclear but all I could find about the Dark Way of magic is that it draws it power from the Black Crystal (instead than The Crystal). While the relation between the BC and the BF are aboslutely obscure... one can't but think they are asociated as they seem to share the same Dark nature. It's an open matter but able to be roleplayed in a creative manner as one fits best. It gives occasion for many interesting theological discussions IC. The "real answer", the "truth" will always remain somewhat hidden, because that's how religions are, right?
...
I don't really see where the settings portrays Klyros as clear agnostics/atheists. The race is obviously traditionalistic. They stand by such values as honour or brotherhood. All the same with culture like that they would probably much rather die than be forced to do anything against their will. I think that's why they refused to follow Laanx. Atheism isn't a good explanation when the godly powers are proven with many Klyros being murdered and tortured.
Sure. They are (or used to be) probably "ethnic" in their beliefs.
As to Talad's worship being the main one, I'm not sure. The faith is filled with harmony, passive. It takes what comes and uses it to the best effect. Laanx priests on the other hand tend to be zealots. They should show much more will to fight for new followers and even take shady (the masked god) measures to achieve their goals.
Read above. As per the settings many (not all) of the different races became followers of Talad. Laanx created the Lemurs... but Yilakum is Talad's creation, so Yilakum people will likely tend to follow or at least respect Talad strongly (except Lemurs and Xacha maybe).
It's also a question how Diaboli can be atheists if they avoid temples at all costs and have holy items damage them greatly. It would appear they are of supernatural origin themselves. Would demonic be too convenient?
As per the settings they are suggested to be somwehat demonic in nature... not explicitly with those words but all the settings re. Diaboli make them look like demon-like humanoids. Using the term "demon" in a Christian sense though would be getting out of the settings though... but it's clear that the inspiration for such race comes primarily from that source.
They are atheist not in the sense of disbelief... but rather of disinterest/opposition towards the gods and what they represent. It seems to be against their nature: to proud and unholy.
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Unlike our real world, there everyone knows the gods exist, but not everybody worships them. I have no idea why some people there argue their characters don't believe.
Well, after 750 years with the gods only manifesting indirectly, one may be skeptic regarding *these gods* or even the existence of any god (or relevant god). One can believe that magic (only visible manifestation) is just natural and has potentially a "scientific" explanation. Even in the European Middle Ages there were some atheists (those who could afford challenging the authority of the church as that Holy Roman Emperor known as "Stupor Mundi", who even led a crusade in the name of a god he didn't belief in). If the context is more loosely pre-modern than just specifically "medieval" (as I think it should be interpreted), we have many atheists/agnostics in Ancient Greece an a total pragmatic ecclecticism in Ancient and Medieval China, and many polytheisms in many different parts of the World.
I think that people should avoid taking the rather strict monotheistic cliché of Medieval Europe (that anyhow allowed for many heressies and polytheistic pervivences, in which often socio-political unrest manifested) and be more open minded. After all, Yilakum religious relaity is clearly polytheistic and ecclectic, not the mono-doctrinarian reality of Medieval Europe or Islam. Think more in Ancient Egypt, China, classical Greece, India...
And, of course, it's different from all them anyhow.
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Read above. As per the settings many (not all) of the different races became followers of Talad. Laanx created the Lemurs... but Yilakum is Talad's creation, so Yilakum people will likely tend to follow or at least respect Talad strongly (except Lemurs and Xacha maybe).
"When the Xacha began to build the temple to Laanx, Talad felt control of his people's hearts slipping away. Many of his people, curious and charmed by Galeran's power, began to workship Laanx and to forget what Talad had made for them."
Also, you can hardly compare the state of Yliakum's religions to real life polytheistic ones. The churches are in a strong rivalisation. There's no, uhm, united "pantheon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0137.html)" ;)
Your arguments are conflicting by the way. You're assuming after all these years belief in gods could wane away, but all the same you state people would follow Talad for what he did for them in the times of yore. That is despite that Talad doesn't interfere with the Yliakum, while the Church of Laanx certainly fights for the followers.
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Read above. As per the settings many (not all) of the different races became followers of Talad. Laanx created the Lemurs... but Yilakum is Talad's creation, so Yilakum people will likely tend to follow or at least respect Talad strongly (except Lemurs and Xacha maybe).
"When the Xacha began to build the temple to Laanx, Talad felt control of his people's hearts slipping away. Many of his people, curious and charmed by Galeran's power, began to workship Laanx and to forget what Talad had made for them."
Also, you can hardly compare the state of Yliakum's religions to real life polytheistic ones. The churches are in a strong rivalisation. There's no, uhm, united "pantheon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0137.html)" ;)
Your arguments are conflicting by the way. You're assuming after all these years belief in gods could wane away, but all the same you state people would follow Talad for what he did for them in the times of yore. That is despite that Talad doesn't interfere with the Yliakum, while the Church of Laanx certainly fights for the followers.
Well, you may be right about Laanxism being stronger than I thought but, though there's rivalry between Laanx and Talad, they form part of the same mythology anyhow, obe could even say that they are the same religion in a way: two ramifications of the same mythological idea (compare with Jupiter and Saturn or Vishnu and Shiva or whatever).
The settings and in-game literature are clear anyhow that the ethnic gods exist, though guess you could say the occupy a less prominent position (partial exceptions: the mysterious Xacha god of the Tower and the even more mysterious presence of DR).
The books you can read in DR are also quite clear that there are diferent opinions as to what causes ressurrection: some claim it miracle of their gods, other think of natural causes, etc. There's no clear explanation about the origin of the Black Crystal, which is most important for Dark Way adepts.
Also, generally speaking, it's clear that Laanx and Talad are gods of a polytheistic set. There's at least another more powerful god mentioned (Vodul) that is not worshipped directly by Yilakumites, and one would perfectly understand that there's a large (maybe infinite) array of other gods, though they had no direct incidence in the reation of Yilakum (they belong to other worlds and realities... though some have gained presence in our hollowed stalactite by means of importation or other unclear means).
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What I meant is that in polytheistic religions people pray to various gods depending on what they want. There's no such thing when it comes to Laanx and Talad. Either you worship one, or the other. If it wasn't for the fact these past events really did happen, the two faiths wouldn't be connected at all. I mean, why should they if you can kick out a god and nothing is going to change? In polytheistic religions that's different as each god represents something that cannot be just taken out.
By the way, I think Xacha are the only race that may have atheism really justified (due to their scientific inclinations). Ironically, most have a deep faith in Laanx. I think this should be saying something.
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What I meant is that in polytheistic religions people pray to various gods depending on what they want. There's no such thing when it comes to Laanx and Talad. Either you worship one, or the other. If it wasn't for the fact these past events really did happen, the two faiths wouldn't be connected at all. I mean, why should they if you can kick out a god and nothing is going to change? In polytheistic religions that's different as each god represents something that cannot be just taken out.
By the way, I think Xacha are the only race that may have atheism really justified (due to their scientific inclinations). Ironically, most have a deep faith in Laanx. I think this should be saying something.
Why would not some worship now Talad and then Laanx? Talad, I suspect would not have any problem with that... Laanx might be more envious. But people is practical and if there are several gods and they are not mutually exclussive (as happens in monotheistic faiths), many will surely respect both, even if they feel more attracted to one or the other.
You think probably in Greco-Roman polytheism, where most gods were believed to form part of a divine court and often even lineage. In other faiths the realtions beween different gods were/are not so straight and they may not represent different aspects but different forms of religion unified by a sense of common roots. The relation of Shiva and Vishnu is probably of that type: there are Shaivites, there are Vishnavas, and there are other trends (left hand path, Brahmanists - what's their Hindu name?) and other related or unrelated religions (Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Zoroastrism, Islam, Christianism, etc.), besides the many secondary (or not so secondary) gods of Hinduism. Some worship all, some worship none, some worship only one as "the true god", etc. Yet that normally doesn't cause major social clashes because what's probably most essential of polytheistic societies is (often) their eclecticism and tolerance.
As per the Xacha maybe their god is actually one of rationalism and science, who knows?
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Literate characters should be more likely to be religious because they'll be more familiar with the recorded history of the gods and their interactions with mortals. If you grew up on a farm and only ever heard tales of Laanx and Talad, you'll have less reason to believe in them.
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Yes zanzi. Nothing like the power of a cold book. Beliefs and traditions passed on throughout generations in close communities are totally no match for some words written by someone you don't even know. Hey, maybe if I pick up some books by Rowling, I'll start worshipping Harry Potter?
No, seriously. What are you talking about? The most faithful approach to religion can be found in the rural areas. The least faithful in bigger cities, especially among the educated. Is one (dubious) argument going to change that? There's a sea of arguments that speak otherwise out there.
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draklar ur last post is going off of real life information. the thing you keep reminding people not to do.
i back zanzabar's last post. the more you read of it the more you might believe. tho, the more you believe the more you might be inclined to blame the gods for the state of the world it is now.
in a big city like hydlaa with a huge temple of laanx and the statue. more of a reason to believe.
in say.. oja its a small place that seems to be miles away from hydlaa. no temple, no statues. just merchants and tents. if i was a parent and didnt want my child to know about these gods because i didnt believe in them.. i would move to oja. and keep it quiet. tell the child the people who come to the city speaking of these charactors are just storytellers. no fact behind them. as would most.
i think people in this thread are getting mixed up with the difference between believing and worshiping.
in yliakum where would u go if u didnt want your children and your childrens children to believe or even know about the gods? would u go to hydlaa the big city, or to the more rural oja?
Also, you can hardly compare the state of Yliakum's religions to real life polytheistic ones.
same goes for its people draklar.
also... if u pick up a book about laanx and talad in the library, wouldnt u find it in the fact/historical section of the library?
where would harry potter be located in the library?
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I'm amazed by your skill in missing other users' points.
Also, you're confusing me and Jeraphon.
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Yes zanzi. Nothing like the power of a cold book. Beliefs and traditions passed on throughout generations in close communities are totally no match for some words written by someone you don't even know. Hey, maybe if I pick up some books by Rowling, I'll start worshipping Harry Potter?
No, seriously. What are you talking about? The most faithful approach to religion can be found in the rural areas. The least faithful in bigger cities, especially among the educated. Is one (dubious) argument going to change that? There's a sea of arguments that speak otherwise out there.
We're talking about Planeshift, not real life.
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Right, so what you're saying is that unlike in real world, in Yliakum people don't tend to have much closer and traditionalist communities in rural areas and they most certainly don't depend on gods more in places where tough living conditions leave their lives at nature's whim.
It also turns out hearing about gods is more of a reason to worship them than if your life simply depends on their decisions.
I'm not saying people in cities don't worship gods, but saying they have more reason to do so is absurd. Books are good for introducing you to religion, but after you finish reading one, a book won't answer your doubts. The most important source of teaching about religion are the people. Priests, family, environment. More family and environment in rural areas and more priests in cities. Now the question is what will be more influencial. People you live with, or charismatic priests you meet once in a while. Books don't even matter as in rural areas you'll have all the basics passed just by living with people.
Also before the (typical enough) misinterpretation, my point was
The source of atheism is either doubt or complete agnosis. We can rule out the latter as neither cities nor the villages here are some sort of secluded areas that common knowledge simply cannot reach. Now doubt is the heart of science. But considering Xacha are the most scientific people and yet they don't doubt the existence of Laanx, this source of atheism can be ruled out either. Atheism simply has no rational basis in the Yliakum.
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way to switch ur point up. GJ
atheism is not rational in yliakum?
ya ur right, you must believe everything you read, you must believe what people say.
hmmmmm.... someone grows up only reading tales of gods, and rumors of other people. all through this time they are growing up an act of god is nowhere to be seen. as the settings say "the gods are away". but they must believe because its irrational not to? if anything since the settings say the gods are away and there is no REAL PROOF of them that all can see and watch. it seems far more rational to believe there are no gods.
in yliakum. the larger town "hydlaa" would have far more believers. seeing as how the temple and the statue is there. the more rural areas (oja) would have people less inclined to believing, as the only thing lifetime inhabitants know is what others bring.. books, tales.. whatever.
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Wow, so now you need large temples and statues to believe in something?
Damn, I wonder how come people worshipped deities before the Roman Empire started spreading the idea of large cities all across the Europe.
And yes, Coneitic, you're supposed to believe in everything others say. Right.../me throws Coneitic a ball of yarn.
Go amuse yourself.
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Right, so what you're saying is that unlike in real world, in Yliakum people don't tend to have much closer and traditionalist communities in rural areas and they most certainly don't depend on gods more in places where tough living conditions leave their lives at nature's whim.
What I'm saying is that, unlike the real world, in Yliakum gods actually exist.
The source of atheism is either doubt or complete agnosis. We can rule out the latter as neither cities nor the villages here are some sort of secluded areas that common knowledge simply cannot reach. Now doubt is the heart of science. But considering Xacha are the most scientific people and yet they don't doubt the existence of Laanx, this source of atheism can be ruled out either. Atheism simply has no rational basis in the Yliakum.
Atheism, in the real world, is based on a value for evidence. In Yliakum, unlike in the real world, evidence points to the existence of gods.
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If there's something you impress me with, zanzi, it's your ability to argue with people by supporting what they just said.
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...considering Xacha are the most scientific people and yet they don't doubt the existence of Laanx, this source of atheism can be ruled out either. Atheism simply has no rational basis in the Yliakum.
You can't speak for the race as a whole, as individuals could easily have varying opinions on the matter, regardless of majority belief.
Also, there are varying degrees of disbelief/doubt.
An atheist is one who denies the existence of a deity or of divine beings.
An agnostic is one who believes it impossible to know anything about God or about the creation of the universe and refrains from commitment to any religious doctrine.
A skeptic doubts and is critical of all accepted doctrines and creeds.
There have been atheists, heretics, and infidels throughout our own history. I'm sure Yliakum history is riddled with them, as well. From an RP perspective, this only makes things more interesting. Heretical organizations can make for interesting nemeses.
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If there's something you impress me with, zanzi, it's your ability to argue with people by supporting what they just said.
If that's what you believe just happened, then power to you.:)
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...considering Xacha are the most scientific people and yet they don't doubt the existence of Laanx, this source of atheism can be ruled out either. Atheism simply has no rational basis in the Yliakum.
You can't speak for the race as a whole, as individuals could easily have varying opinions on the matter, regardless of majority belief.
I'm saying in general. And if I can do that, it means in general science in Yliakum doesn't attempt to disprove gods, giving no rational basis for any sort of atheism.
An atheist is one who denies the existence of a deity or of divine beings.
Just to nitpick. Atheism doesn't imply someone denies gods. It emplies someone doesn't aknowledge them. Atheism can take a form of denial (strong atheism) or it can take a form of no belief, without actual denial of the gods. As in, "I don't care" (weak atheism). Additionally atheism also appears when secluded person/tribe was never bestowed the concept of gods. That's what I call complete agnosis.
In a similar way you oversimplified agnosticism.
Now as our totally insightful friend already said, in Yliakum gods actually exist. This gives science a possibility to grasp the concept of gods. And as the example of Xacha shows us, the science did grasp this concept, and that makes the comparison with real world atheism rather inaccurate.
P.S. The power's always with me, zanzi. It always is.
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Did I oversimplify, or do you prefer to nitpick things into complexity?
Either way, atheism and heretical behaviour, no matter how you perceive them only add more dimensions to RP in any campaign.
THAT's the point I was making. :P
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Now as our totally insightful friend already said, in Yliakum gods actually exist. This gives science a possibility to grasp the concept of gods. And as the example of Xacha shows us, the science did grasp this concept, and that makes the comparison with real world atheism rather inaccurate.
Religion and science would be very weird in this game. In real life when people think of science they think of everything that relgion says differently about...In game though the scientific explanation for how the world was created would be that the Gods used magic. Magic...hmm wouldn't the scientific explanation for day and night be that the magic crystal gives off the light? Come to think of it I think science would be completely different. It sounds more like magic being the science to me.
Person one: How do people make flames?
Person two: Its the science of combustion. (I don't really know if thats true mind you :sweatdrop: )
Person three: No. The great Talad gifted man with the glyph. Some of these glyphs use the power of the crystal to use the red way and create flames.
At least thats what it sounds like to me ;D
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Simplifying is okay, so long as it is accurate.
Atheism isn't a very interesting concept as it's rather mainstream in our society (well nowadays the tendency turns to agnosticism).
Heresy can add some sweet situations, that I agree with. And I wouldn't say it doesn't exist in Yliakum ;)
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Keep in mind that Atheism is not a new thing by any measure. It's been around for thousands of years. The writings of the ancient Greeks are evidence of this. The penalties for Atheism in old religions is also evidence of Atheism by reactions to it.
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my point was, to sum it up for you draklar.
people who believe and worship would be more inclined to move to this big city where they can visit the temple daily and pay tribute. therefore the city would most likely be full of believers.
whereas people who did not believe and thought it was all... say a scam.. would want to get away from hydlaa, and its people. they stay away from the temple.
besides "Knowing the gods exist" is an OOC thing. believing they exist is IC.
nobody in the game has seen first hand there really are gods. so how is athiesm so wrong?
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nobody in the game has seen first hand there really are gods.
Not true.
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Hai, very not true - http://www.planeshift.it/history.html (http://www.planeshift.it/history.html)
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Hai, very not true - http://www.planeshift.it/history.html (http://www.planeshift.it/history.html)
Bringing up the history doesn't help :P I believe that happened before most of us and it says that the gods no longer interact with us like that.
nobody in the game has seen first hand there really are gods.
Not true.
Yeah its not true necessarily. Who knows what events have happened in the past so the gods could have once before interacted with a players.
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Oops, fair point :) Though I'm sure after munching some of those Lake Mushrooms I saw Laanx explaining his/her transgenderism ;)
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my point was, to sum it up for you draklar.
people who believe and worship would be more inclined to move to this big city where they can visit the temple daily and pay tribute. therefore the city would most likely be full of believers.
whereas people who did not believe and thought it was all... say a scam.. would want to get away from hydlaa, and its people. they stay away from the temple.
besides "Knowing the gods exist" is an OOC thing. believing they exist is IC.
nobody in the game has seen first hand there really are gods. so how is athiesm so wrong?
Good point.
They would want to get away from the temple, many would stay because of their lives.
It's not wrong. Atheists would just generally be laughed at, asked how the temple of Talad was made, and then laughed at some more when they can't answer. :P
And the games have been away from some time. This may actually be true, Duraza, we don't know how long they've been gone. Atleast for Talad and Laanx.
Black Flame worshippers could have seen their god if they were in kadaikos.
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The main point is not to denounce Atheism completely, though I think we should, it's to point out that there are way too many of them. The gods do care about who worships them, Talad built that temple because too many people turned to Laanx, so, up until they left, they'd be keeping an eye on atheism.
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ya your giving history, im talking about the players in game now. unless you played with laanx or talad, or seen one of them appear and do something incredible noone has seen first hand what has happened.
they may have once interacted with the people, like laanx chilled with he lemurs but that was long ago, you say yliakum is 750 years old and the gods no longer interact with us, they are gone, the way i see it is, unless the majority of people playing have seen the gods, and watched them perform miracles then it all relies on faith and athiesim is just as rational as anything else.
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lol for once we agree it seems waylander.
and not to be picky but doesnt the black flame represent laanx soul? so the followers of that would follow laanx? thats what the settings say.
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We agreed on most things, still on opposite sides of the argument though :P
They probably haven't been gone that long, and though it is history, it does give them a certain personality, they both want worshipers, we know this. So, up until they left, which I imagine wasn't so long ago, they'd been keeping an eye on atheism. Most people would be very religious, and very few, if any, would be athiest.
Black Flame is it's own god that tricked the people of Kadaikos into believing it was the soul of Laanx.
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The gods have made personal appearances in-game since the release of CB.
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The point is that they shouldn't have. The people impersonating Laanx and Talad were not aware of the gods actually being away.
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The point is that they shouldn't have. The people impersonating Laanx and Talad were not aware of the gods actually being away.
Well it's too late now! :) And that's not the point. That's your point. One among many. So there! :D
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That's a point from Luca. And it's not too late - previous roleplays may continuously need to be changed as Settings advances.
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That's a point from Luca. And it's not too late - previous roleplays may continuously need to be changed as Settings advances.
Good luck with that.;)
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people who believe and worship would be more inclined to move to this big city where they can visit the temple daily and pay tribute. therefore the city would most likely be full of believers.
whereas people who did not believe and thought it was all... say a scam.. would want to get away from hydlaa, and its people. they stay away from the temple.
Yes, because it's not like, you know, people need money to move into bigger cities. It's totally okay for a peasant to move out from rural areas despite that even there he has troubles with making a living. And those who do live in big cities, certainly have lots of time to pray to gods. It's not like making a living in a big city requires earning much more money, right? Surely city inhabitants have so much time that they spend entire days within the temples!
See, now here's funny thing. What you said there is based on assuption that your assumption is true. You grasp the paradox?
If people in cities are more faithful, then what you say may be true.
If they aren't, then what you say is false. Why? Because if people in rural areas are more faithful, then people annoyed with religion wouldn't wish to go to a small traditionalist society, where not praying everyday is seen as something mighty odd.
Now the only support for what you say is that temples make such a big difference. Will a rich merchant who is too busy for religion move away to a village, automatically giving himself loss on his strategic merchant position in one of the biggest cities in Yliakum? Hell no. Are the only inhabitants of the rural areas Diaboli? Hell no again.
In fact, how would anyone try to escape from religion if religion is everywhere? You'd have to shelter yourself from all the people, not just move out to the rural areas.
Now another point. You heard of Plato's allegory of the cave? What happens when a prisoner is set free? Does he escape to cut himself free from the other prisoners? No, he comes back and tries to free them. If someone gets free from the grasp of religion, he won't try to escape, but rather show the religious people his new way.
And if there are gods, that means there are proofs that gods exist. And if there are proofs, science is okay with them. If science is okay with them, then there's no space for doubt.
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sounds like your turning a personal battle into a forum battle.
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You can't really call it battle. I mean, I already won. Now it's all about taking out the unfortunate survivors.
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You can't really call it battle.
This is true. I prefer calling it "Draklar doing his thang".
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I think that's enough of the insults and off topic comments either post constructively or not at all please
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/say Forged over the hard hearts of atheists/With the molten metal of the faithful/And skilled the hammer strikes of the soulful/Laanx's book of names hath called for its priests./Tend now to the chaos in the crystal/Let his mighty name ring forth in echoes/And scatter his enemies in death throes/While awaiting converts at each portal/For Laanx highest lord of Yliakum/Hath made a home of this cold lifeless stone/And brought souls from the azure sun. Let none/question the lessons of the crystal's hum./And let us pass in passion the messages/Marked out for us each in Laanx's passages.
IN this verse is threatened the vengeance of God on the wicked unbelieving citizens of Yliakum, that were God’s visible people, and lived under means of grace; and that, notwithstanding all God’s wonderful works that he had wrought towards that people, yet remained, void of counsel, having no understanding in them; and that, under all the cultivations of heaven, brought forth bitter and poisonous fruit.
The above is excerpted and adapted from here http://edwards.yale.edu/images/pdf/sinners.pdf (http://edwards.yale.edu/images/pdf/sinners.pdf) as a little joke for our atheist characters.
I think some decent points have been raised.
I will say that, the gods of the old cultures have largely been eliminated but more on how and why later.
I would like to steer this thread a bit toward what do players think they need to be more concerned, in a role playing sense, with the gods?
What would drive you to begin to play as priests or at least stop hanging out at the loud smoky forges all day to have your conversations?
What would it take?
How do you imagine it being something you would consider more seriously?
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I would like to steer this thread a bit toward what do players think they need to be more concerned, in a role playing sense, with the gods?
What would drive you to begin to play as priests or at least stop hanging out at the loud smoky forges all day to have your conversations?
What would it take?
How do you imagine it being something you would consider more seriously?
Well firstly being able to learn more about the gods would help. We all know the basics from the settings but just being able to figure out more. For example modern day religions usually have books with the teachings of that god. Sure Laanx has the book of Names but it doesn't help us much. Being able to know a lot more would help.
Secondly many players do quests, its a thing thats always going happening. I'm not saying to this for everything but add quests that reveal more religious facts. Maybe make a quests to become a priest of Laanx and Sharven would teach you of Laanx's teachings (like how Harnquist can teach you to become a blacksmith). Involving quests always help and makes a more intresting way to find things out.
Another intresting thing would be making certain NPC's notice religion. I know that after becoming a Laanx follower you can do quests for Sharven but I think there should be more NPC's like that and, if not already done, a quest to become a Talad follower. Maybe some NPC's won't train you if your not of their religion. Do all NPC's have to act that way, no. However some should.
Some gm events should also deal with religion. Look at how many people always come to them. Its the perfect time to distrubute knowledge and help players pay more attention. Maybe a gm will test someone on their knowledge of Laanx. That might cause people to actually wonder.
In the end its all about attracting the players. Blessed weapons that can only be gained by being a strong follower in one faith, quests that teach you of the faith's, etc etc. While I'm not saying we should just add a bunch of ways to get shiny weapons and high skills sometimes thats the only way to make people take notice. ;) Just do it in moderation.
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I've met plenty of hard hearted theists.