PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Maju on August 22, 2007, 12:24:55 pm
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:o
It's mad. When you can easily kill a tefu without a scratch and then you are even more easily killed in two hits by another... :'(
Same with rogues, etc. There's no way to know in advance how strong they are, so you can avoid combat when you suspect they are stronger and attack only when you feel you can win. I've tried using ranged magical attacks but to no use, as they seem to suffer about the same with them... but when you come to close contact the difference is so brutal that it just makes no sense. How can a "weak" tefu not being able to even scratch you and then its cousin can kill you in two hits? If such abysmal difference exists, shouldn't you be able to notice from the distance: "uh, a strong tefu in its prime" or "great, a weak elderly tefu with worn off claws"? I think you should and that these so extremely different mobs should be called by different names, so you can take them apart easily and chose your rival intelligently. Some call strong tefus "king tefusangs", or strong rogues "master rogues"... but you seldom know in advance which is each one (unless you grind always in the same spot).
I think this is quite unfair, really... and frustrating. Now the DR is not such a heavy penalty... but in the future it will be. Any character is expected (unless he/she is a madman ype of "hero") to try to avoid death, yet with such conditions this is more than just problematic: it's night-on-impossible.
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have you checked the description of the mobs where it lists how easy or hard they will be for your character? [that is if you are intelligent enough to know [your char that is]]
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Actually I like it that way. A tag over enemies head giving information about their strength would be sort of boring, no? Too predictable. Look at the Cutthroats: All of them seem to be differently strong, which guarantees for some surprise.
Of course evaluating them, depending on mental stats like it is, generally, should be possible, like one can differentiate a weakly looking one from a musculuous one.
Factor of realism appears to be discussed much these days. Not to go offtopic now, this sort of realism I appreciate. You cant encounter a group of thugs and expect everyone to be of the exact same strength.
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I would even go one step further. The npcs should have random strength, so that the one you just killed is either weaker or stronger next time he spawns. That would also be nice for the campers ;)
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Grand idea, Rongar, I second that! =P
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all mobs should be same strength. better for rp.
"hey im new to the land (or "im ready to start training") any ideas on a good sparring monster?"
"sure the rouges arent very intellegent and have minimal training"
or
"Im getting bored with these rouges. where can i find a challenge?"
"try the tefusangs, they have strong claws and tough skin, hard to penetrate without a strong enough swing"
instead its.
"hi where can i find an easy monster to kill"
"the rouge that spawns outside of hydlaa gates. he is easy"
or
"the tefusang in the far right of the arena, he only takes a few hits to kill"
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I cant agree.
A char approaching a pack of Ulbernauts for instance should sneak and observe, spotting out the weakest one of them. Every race has younger and older individuals, leaders and followers, who all vary in strength.
I remember long time ago I rped a hunt with my char and some friend, and he was seeking out the most powerful one for certain reasons whatever. That moment already I wished there in fact would be more of a different, yet all were of same strength of course (Volcano Ulbers).
Not that it spoiled our fun, but for rp it makes much more sense, in my opinion.
People can adivce newly ones like you propose, Coneitic, yet they could also tell them of races and instead of pointing at the one always being the weakest, they could rp it and advice to watch out for pack leaders as they are ferocious, especially with whelps around.
"the rouge that spawns outside of hydlaa gates. he is easy"
To me that doesnt really appear to be rp at all. In that case I would say, I dont care much if people do their ooc-play.
To strength modulating: Should be within some limits depending on sort of npc of course. maybe like the strongest possible Tefusang could defeat a weaker Ulber. Or something alike. I wouldnt think to introduce a random-count factor for strength (and/or other skills and stats) of npcs shouldnt be that hard? I admit I have no clue how it is coded though.
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This is a graphical game, mobs should not look similar if they are not. If you want everyone to right click and read a description just impliment a /consider command like many old dikuMUDs have.
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I think the plan is that different strength monsters of the same 'species' will be of different 'types' in future. It's already done in some cases now.
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Speaking of that X is it intentional that the Malfusangs (sp) drop the Tefusang parts or is that just a case of labelling/modeling not being complete yet? Similarly the advanced Consumers (whatever they are called) drop regular Consumer parts.
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I agree with Velh on this, the variance is a good thing. And Rongar's randomness between spawns would be good too. It would be nice to have some graphical randomness too (such as all rogues not looking exactly alike) but i understand that takes adding models and textures that are probably a low priority at this point.
Ponder - graphical doesn't have to ignore believability. The descriptions can be way off too depending on your INT or training. I rarely use them. But all you need to know is that if this is a character type X, then you should proceed with caution.
Even with random appearance I wouldn't expect 2 rogues that look alike to have the same stats. I find it not very believable that creatures and baddies are always going to fall within a set range. Why shouldn't 1 tefu kick my butt while another goes down with a couple hits, or even runs away (can they ever run away?) The way they congregate implies a herd mentality, so there should be dominant aggressive ones and weaker, more submissive ones. And if tefus have variety, human MOBs should have even more.
I was shocked when I first saw the aggressiveness of one (formerly tough, but beatable) rogue who not only damaged me badly, but then chased me down when I tried to get away (and I don't mean just walked after me. I mean chased - with bad intent). But it was a good shock. Its exactly what I should feel if I'm stupid enough to challenge an unknown rogue in a dark alley.
Con - how does all the same strength help RP? I would think a believable uncertainty would help more.
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Problem is with aggresive mobs like rogues: you have to get closer to study them than them to attack you... what means that you'll end in DR if you are unlucky. Plus you need some time (seconds but decissive seconds) to read the text and decide. It's just sending people to DR gratuitously.
And anyhow... similar mobs, specially non-humans, should have similar stregths... if they vary, they can't vary from cat to lion, if you know what I mean. They can vary from weak to strong lion, but that's not the same as happens in game, where one tefu can be killed with zero risk and the other can't be even approached without death risk. The differences in strength are extreme, unnatural and not realistic at all.
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Speaking of that X is it intentional that the Malfusangs (sp) drop the Tefusang parts or is that just a case of labelling/modeling not being complete yet? Similarly the advanced Consumers (whatever they are called) drop regular Consumer parts.
Yes. Malfusangs are tefusangs in the same way that Great Danes are dogs.
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And anyhow... similar mobs, specially non-humans, should have similar stregths... if they vary, they can't vary from cat to lion, if you know what I mean. They can vary from weak to strong lion, but that's not the same as happens in game, where one tefu can be killed with zero risk and the other can't be even approached without death risk. The differences in strength are extreme, unnatural and not realistic at all.
Explain then, the difference between a new character and a seasoned veteran. Just like PCs, creatures can have different experiences and purposes in the pack. There are aggressive tefus that have fought and non-aggressive that flee.
For example, a timid pit bull and a trained pit bull fight. I think the answer is obvious which would win.
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Double left click the Mob from a distance. No need to get that close.
All creatures the same easier for RP?
/me almost chokes.
Cripes, I don't even want them to appear in the same spot over and over. But to all actually BE the same? Ya, that would be great for RP... if you consider Diablo to be a good RP game.
Random (within bounds) stats, random agressiveness, random (within reason) spawns, and with a certain purpose. Now -that- makes for good RP.
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I agree with under the moon, its not that hard to just go up and examine the creature, and besides its more fun if their levels are differnt.
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It gets frustrating when you can kill a tefusang 1 time, then the next time you aren't even doing any damage at all. Then you are stuck with hunting rats until that monster resets.
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It's almost necessary for RP that creatures of the same species have different stats. Say you attack a puppy, you will probably beat it. Now try attacking a full grown Rottweiler, you probably won't fair so well.
Perhaps they will be able to do something with scaling in the future, stronger creatures appear larger. But for now, look at the desc.
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Has anyone else notced how aggressive they have come lately? I mean you see something and think to yourself "oh yeah, I can take that" you extange a few blows and realize "oh my gosh I am gonna die!" So you take off running, and you run and you run and you run, and finally you have to stop because you have run out of stamina...and it catchs up to you and kills you because you can no longer run away.
Or maybe this has just happend to me. I guess it makes it a bit more realistic tho, cuse if I was a teffy, and some shrimp came and started hacking away at me then then tryied to run, I'd chase his butt down and pound him good, I was just trying to graze before he came along and ruined my day.
:)
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Well I haven't seen this myself too much but monsters should have stamina issues themselves and big ones ought to tire fairly quickly.
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I agree with Velh, Rongar, and UtM, personally. Remember that strength and size isn't everything even with monsters and animals and all that. There is experience behind it, intelligence, etc. Take two people the same physical condition and everything. Heck, take twins the the same physical condition and everything, have one fight 100 fights, have the other fight 500 fights. Then have the two face off. Who's gonna win? More likely the 500 fight one. They look the same, but that doesn't account for everything.
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After 100/500 fights they wouldn't be in the same physical (or mental) condition anymore, even if they were identical before. They wouldn't look or behave the same either: one would have more muscle, or more battle scars, or might glance around nervously anticipating attack, or confidently seek out opponents, etc. Basically, an experienced/aggressive monster should be distinguishable from a less experienced/less aggressive one, not just in their description (which should be done better), but in behavior and appearance.
As far as the description goes, it would help to mention apparent age, physical condition, battle scars and behavior. Like "A young looking rat, shivering with fright and ready to bolt" vs. "A rat, seemingly in it's prime, it's battle scars a testament to many successful fights."
I doubt it could be easily implemented at this point, but personally, I think NPCs and player characters should be pretty much exactly the same to the server except that one is controlled by a script and the other is controlled by a client. For spawning (rats for example), have a rat make a nest, another rat finds it and wanders in, both adult rats stay in /near the nest, the nest produces baby rats, baby rats level up to adult rats, which then go make new nests. A player could destroy a nest, but it would be defended by two adults and lots of babies and might require special tools (like a shovel, axe, pickaxe, torch, whatever).
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What about something like FFXI has with Notorious Monsters? basically sometimes randomly some mobs will spawn instade of a normal mob that is MUCH stronger... usually....
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I agree that they should be of different strengths, but with a realistic variance. I think what the original poster is getting at is the extreme difference in some cases. Take the 3 Dlayo Gladiators in the arena. The guy without weapons can't scratch you (understandable...he doesn't have weapons) but goes down in a couple of hits (from Mordaan's swords, anyway). The guy with swords also doesn't seem to scratch Mordaan and takes a lot more to defeat. But then the guy with axes once hit me for 1900 damage! :o
Sure, they SHOULD be of different strengths, experience, training, etc. But not THAT much. It just seems to be a real extreme difference. Sure they are all of different abilities, but they are still all of the same race. To take one teffy down with one swing while not being able to scratch another seems a bit extreme. The puppy/pitbull example is a good one. Perhaps with scaling not available yet, descriptors could be added like "Baby Tefusang", "Young Tefusang", "Alpha Tefusang", etc.
But as with everything in this game...all in good time. :)
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All types of monsters could have a general strength, which varies within certain bounds.
Name --- General Strength --- Variable Strength
Rat --- 10 --- 5 - 15
Clacker --- 20 --- 10 - 30
Gobble --- 30 --- 20 - 40
Cons. --- 45 --- 30 - 60
Rogue --- 60 --- 40 - 80
Bandit --- 75 --- 50 - 100
...
Something like that... This way, the strongest rat can be stronger than the weakest clacker, but in general it can be said, that different races are either stronger or weaker than others.
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I agree that they should be of different strengths, but with a realistic variance. I think what the original poster is getting at is the extreme difference in some cases. Take the 3 Dlayo Gladiators in the arena. The guy without weapons can't scratch you (understandable...he doesn't have weapons) but goes down in a couple of hits (from Mordaan's swords, anyway). The guy with swords also doesn't seem to scratch Mordaan and takes a lot more to defeat. But then the guy with axes once hit me for 1900 damage! :o
Yes, there should be some way for the character to sum up the opponent, moreso than just There is a rogue, I hope he is one of the weak ones and not one of the killers. In my experience, the viewing the creature is unreliable enough that I do not generally use it anymore. Maybe INT helps...but my character is not a spell caster, and with the combat and crafting I am trying to learn, I simply can't expend all that money and PP's into Intelligence just for this purpose.
I have also found myself getting 1200 XP from a rogue that can't touch me, and 200 XP from a rogue that gives me a few whallops when I fight him. I am sure these imbalances will be worked out at some point, but until then, there will always be the "Whack the rogue" parties in spots where they are easy to kill and give a lot of XP's and loot. Everyone knows what I am talking about.
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A system will be made to regularize them at some point, what i cannot understand is why they are reading incorrectly in relation to players. Did someone put in a bug or feature request?
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yes it has been reported bug 864 [if i understand you correctly]
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I'm solidly in the 'leave it random' camp. I mean, what kind of creature is always the same?
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I'm solidly in the 'leave it random' camp. I mean, what kind of creature is always the same?
I don't know...when you see a dog, can you tell the difference between a Beagle and a Rottweiler?
Can you tell the difference between a Clydesdale and a racehorse?
Can you tell the difference between a professional wrestler and marathon runner?
Can you tell the difference between an Offensive Lineman for a pro football team and a cornerback?
A dog is not just a dog. A horse is not just a horse. A person is not just a person. There are differences, and you can see the difference from one to the next. that's basically the problem here....one rogue looks the same as the next, but one can't hurt you, and the other can kill you in 2 hits.....and the experience points do not reflect their toughness.
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We'll fix it.