PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Miaua on August 22, 2007, 09:04:25 pm
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Greetings
As of late this has been "fixed":
*** 2007-08-22 by Michael Gist
- Fixed bug #2155: 'basecloths' no longer count as light armour.
Whoever thought of this actually being a _bug_ should have maybe also thought about a compensation for all those chars who don't wear any armor. Without doubt you will be more vulnerable when being hit, but also is a char without armor lighter than anyone with armor, and/or clothers are some kind of armor too. So this one without armor should have at least advantage of a higher dodge rate, speed or anything.
The last bit isn't taken into account in PS yet and I would like to see a compensation for the lost protection because of this "fix".
Or... like IG Light armor description says: "Light armor - Trains in the use of lighter armours like CLOTH, hide and leather..." Should be cloth (I would say that no character is naked) still count as LA.
Edit August 22, 2007, 12:08:27 PM
Or there cant be add some special (perhaps "unarmored") skill for that? Similar to melee?
Hassadria + Miaua
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Clothes are not armor, and Xordan spent a while explaining this to Talad yesterday. The rules that were in place before he really looked into and fixed them were quite bad and unrealistic. You are not going to be as protected in a garment of cotton as you would if you were wearing tough animal hide, and there is no reason to "train" a clothes-wearing skill. If you want protection, put on something that's meant to protect. Otherwise people are eventually going to think they can fight decently with ballroom dresses.
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What is the benefit in wearing armor? Which of your skills provides the better protection? Those are important questions.
IMO, you can move better in this and that armor type and move in ways to lower the damage of an incoming hit.
Where is the difference wether you wear clothes or leather? None. It's still the same skill.
You move your arm against the hit in a way so that it doesn't hit you directly, but slides you. And with this skill, you can wear even a housecoat.
Or is there any other system how you can "train" armor? I doubt that the leather is stronger when someone else wears it.
And movement restrictions... well, when you wear heavy things, you surely will be easier to hit, because you can't react as fast.
That's why we would like to suggest:
1) A skill similar to melee (like avoiding hits at all, without any armor).
2) Or just any similar thing which might "protect" you when unarmored, cause now, unarmored character only has disadvantages and no advantages, that's not true IRL, isnt it?
3) Disadvantages when wearing any kind of armor.
4) Some combination of previous points.
Miaua and Hassadria
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There is no "disadvantage" - it's now the default. Wearing armor then gives you an advantage as it protects you from damage, the way it works in every other game :)
If you want to move quicker, train Agility. It doesn't rely on any armor type, and is exactly what you're asking for.
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Where is the difference wether you wear clothes or leather? None. It's still the same skill.
Quite a big difference. Someone who wear cloth all their life would not be able to suddenly put on a set of leather armour and be able to move as if they've been wearing it all their life. Wearing cloth and leather are two very different experiences. The base clothing that characters wear by default provide no protection, and that's the way it should be. When there are proper cloth robes in future they will most likely have magical bonuses. Non-combat clothing will most likely have no protection bonuses though.
As Karyuu says, if you want to not wear armour then train Agility.
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There is no "disadvantage" - it's now the default. Wearing armor then gives you an advantage as it protects you from damage, the way it works in every other game :)
If you want to move quicker, train Agility. It doesn't rely on any armor type, and is exactly what you're asking for.
You avoiding the answer :)
Well.. all right "every other game?"
Never thought this should be like every other game, where everyone runs around armored and armed like battle vehicle... but thats minor now.
How does the armor works? Did we say nonsense? I dont think so. The way explained in Hassadria's post is reasonable.
In my country was great war in medival ages, where heavy armored army lost battle against just "peasants in clothes" Why? Cause they was able to move way faster then armored knights. Why should it be in game different?
Light Armor -
Its protection is not great. The protection of such armors flows from the ability to move fast, unrestricted. Like there was said, the "move-ability and knowlidge how to move to avoid, or ease the hit" counts here. So it should count for no armor at all too.
Medium armor -
is combination between light and heavy
Heavy -
Here is the skill still used for ability to move and knowlidge about the hard points of armor. Fighter moves himself to try to avoid the hit, but its heavy, so its often not possible (noone can say that you move same fast with clothes and with 60Kg heavy plate armor on you) So the fighter need try to move, so the blow is delivered into hard point of the armor.
Point me if there is something wrong on this theory, and we accept it :)
If its reasonable, it will be nice to ponder about implementing in game. Every kind of protection should be usable, not only the "best" and nothing more.
Thanks for at least thinking about it. (armor might be not suitable word for this... "L,M,H protection", or "L,M,H defense" fits way better)
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I don't think we want to overcomplicate. Clothes are clothes, armor is armor. It's just that simple :) If you're not going out to fight, you shouldn't be wearing your armor, so there's no point to everyone standing around crafting in chainmail. That's bad roleplay, and something the players themselves should acknowledge.
In the future we will have many different sets of regular clothing that are just for visual style, and many sets of armor that is meant for protection. The two will remain separated because it's a realistic simplification for games. Again, if you want something to train to avoid being hit or to hit faster when you're not wearing armor, train Agility.
I really don't understand the need to make it any more elaborate.
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Ehm, isn't this change in your advantage?
Example:
Kran has protection by his hardened skin of 10.
Kran has leather armour with protection of 5.
Kran equips the armour.
The system thinks "Hey, you can't wear two armours at the same time!" and removes the "skin" armour.
The Kran now has protection of 5 which is half of the protection he would have without any armour on!
Xordan fixed this bug, so that's in your advantage! A weak armour won't cause you to be weaker than you would be *without* any armour on anymore.
Xordan:
I do have some comments on your fix. Now the right protection is calculated by picking the highest number, why is this?
If a Kran has 10 skin + 5 armour he would have 10+5=15 protection.
Right now it would be 10+5=10 protection as 10 is higher than 5 and thus 5 doesn't count. You'd say that a Kran with leather armour on would be a bit better protected agains scratches than one without.
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Xordan:
I do have some comments on your fix. Now the right protection is calculated by picking the highest number, why is this?
If a Kran has 10 skin + 5 armour he would have 10+5=15 protection.
Right now it would be 10+5=10 protection as 10 is higher than 5 and thus 5 doesn't count. You'd say that a Kran with leather armour on would be a bit better protected agains scratches than one without.
I originally had it stacked like you showed, but Talad thought this was too big an advantage for Kran so I had to make it pick the highest, even if it makes little RP sense. Maybe one day Kran will have a suitable disadvantage to balance it out and it'll stack.
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And isnt there any way, or think, to add some advantages towards ligher armored people?
No armor -
protection 0 + 60% (depends on agility) chance to avoid hit at all (from damage 100, will avarage appear as 40dmg )
Light armor -
protection 25 + 50% (depends on agility) chance to avoid hit at all (from damage (100 - 25) 75, will avarage appear as 37.5dmg )
Medium armor -
protection 50 + 35% (depends on agility) chance to avoid hit at all (from damage (100 - 50) 50, will avarage appear as 32.5dmg )
Heavy armor -
protection 70 + 10% (depends on agility) chance to avoid hit at all (from damage (100 - 70) 30, will avarage appear as 27dmg )
This way is im my opinion much nicer, cause it allows various character and styles. Not only "moving armory wins"
*edit*
not sure how PS calculates the damage, so convert it please as you want ^.^
and its logic anyway. one can avoid slash or anything much better when is not restricted by 20 - 80 Kg heavy armor.
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Agility should drop if you put on -any- armor, or clothing you are not used to wearing.
And I beg to differ about 'normal' clothing giving no advantage over armor. You can move faster, giving you the greater ability to avoid blows right off the bat.. Loose clothing (including robes, cloaks, and yes, even dresses) will lower your agility somewhat, but more than makes up for that by helping conceal the position of your body. In fact, I would say training the use of loose cloth is a very viable means of dodging more blows than any other type of armor.
A person with no agility at all standing still in a slight breeze is harder to hit with a solid blow if wearing loose clothing rather than any type of armor.
Now, if you do get hit, that is a completely different story.
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I originally had it stacked like you showed, but Talad thought this was too big an advantage for Kran so I had to make it pick the highest, even if it makes little RP sense. Maybe one day Kran will have a suitable disadvantage to balance it out and it'll stack.
Perhaps in the future, Kran will refuse to wear anything but metal armors, to help balance it. It would make sense that they would not be comfortable wearing "skin".
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Doesn't it say somewhere in the settings that Kran skin is the equivalent of leather armor? If this were so then it would be 5 + 5 = 10 with leather and not 5 +5 = 5. Where did the Kran skin = 10 come from in the first place? From what I was told it was exactly the same and wearing leather was just redundant. Perhaps I missed a change somewhere, I do not usually look at the changelogs.
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Hassadria points to UtM's message
That's what I mean with 'disadvantage'.
Everyone is able to train agility to the same level. That means that the one wearing heavy armor is as fast as the one wearing no armor.
That's realistic?
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Hassadria points to UtM's message
That's what I mean with 'disadvantage'.
Everyone is able to train agility to the same level. That means that the one wearing heavy armor is as fast as the one wearing no armor.
That's realistic?
Very true. I'm not agaisnt the change with the armor but another change should also be added. Those wearing armors should have their speed reduced, the heavyier the armor the greater the reduction is speed. If everyone is just allowed to wear whatever protection they want and move with the same speed as someone without any armor just because they have equal agility levels....its just not realistic. A simple fix is making armor have a negative effect on agility. Just like there are weapons that boost stats make armor lower agility. Depending on the armors weight you lower the agility more. Only with no armor are you fully agile.
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Doesn't it say somewhere in the settings that Kran skin is the equivalent of leather armor? If this were so then it would be 5 + 5 = 10 with leather and not 5 +5 = 5. Where did the Kran skin = 10 come from in the first place? From what I was told it was exactly the same and wearing leather was just redundant. Perhaps I missed a change somewhere, I do not usually look at the changelogs.
I just picked the "kran skin = 10" for my example. If Kran skin is indeed the equivalent of leather armour I should've picked 5 for clarity, but that doesn't matter. It's about the calculation itself, not the values, in my example.
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Fair enough Thom.
Now about the unarmored combat and agility, you don't really need a separate skill for unarmored if dodge is based on agility, all you really need to do is build in a modifier to the various armor types that reduces the effective agility more for the heavier types. For example clothes would be 0 light armor would be -5, medium might be -10 and heavy could be -20. The numbers do not matter at this point they are there just for clarity, they could be 0,10,20, and 40 or something else.
Alternatively you could go by percentage instead or a straight number and while you are at it you could combine the armor number with an encumbrance value at the same time. For example using the lower numbers, a character with 50% encumbrance could have a -25% Effective Agility (EA) from the weight and have 20 added to that if wearing heavy armor.
Of course it gets a little complicated if the person is wearing mismatched armor so that each piece would need its own modifier, the numbers above would represent a full set so heavy chest might be 8, leggings 7 gloves and boots 2 each and helm 1 to total 20. Medium armor would have 1/2 those values and light 1/4 all in addition to the weight modifier. The weight modifier for armor could be negated with expertise so at the highest levels you would only suffer the base modifier to EA and not the encumbrance for the armor pieces.
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/me raises his hand
Is there any way to know if this, or something similar, is going to be implemented (Or at least thought about)?
It doesn't fit into bugtracker or wishlist I fear, but feedback or information would be welcome.
As unarmored fighter I see it a little (more than a little ;) ) unbalanced like it is now and suggestions about an improvement were already made in previous posts to which I can only agree.
Seeking for information
Sen
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There already is a disadvantage to wearing heavier armor- you cant fight for as long. Since you are carrying more weight, each time you move, it takes more physical stamina. Someone can get used to moveing around in heavier armor, so that they can move just as fast, but it takes a whole lot more energy.
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Could someone explain how exactly the 'natural armor' of Krans work at the moment? Is it a fixed value or can it be trained/improved?
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There already is a disadvantage to wearing heavier armor- you cant fight for as long. Since you are carrying more weight, each time you move, it takes more physical stamina. Someone can get used to moveing around in heavier armor, so that they can move just as fast, but it takes a whole lot more energy.
Not at all for high-stats characters. They can fight for unlimited time.
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You know what the opening posts remind me of? This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0025.html)! :D
Though I need to differ. It's not true all games handle armour same as PS does. Quite a few don't actually have an armour skill and I believe it's a far more reasonable solution than having armour improve damage reduction thanks to your skills.
And I think it would be best if the armour skills didn't deal with the damage, but much rather reducing disadvantages from wearing given type of armour.
But obviously this isn't the mmorpg style of doing things. Gods forbid, it could reduce the hack&slash feeling of the game :P