PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: ShadowKat on August 30, 2007, 04:10:19 am
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*drags out her big soapbox and drags it to the square*
mkay ... look ... now some of you are going to think this is "brown-nosing", others are going to think I'm just being b*tchy ... however, I"m going to say it anyway...
I'm not without my own frustrations with the game. Trust me, I have several. But there are two things I always always try to keep in mind ....
1) PS is totally and completely free. No ads, no fees, no nothing. The only thing it costs is my time.
2) PS is still in many many stages of development. It's even still called a "tech demo".
Some things change quickly (and repeatedly), others take a long long time to change. Live with it. In my own little head I believe that if you're at all familiar with coding, programming, R&D, and any large scale gaming you will understand that very few things happen quickly. It cannot be done. If you aren't familiar with the technical aspect, then you really have no room to gripe at the devs for how long anything takes ... simply because you have no clue what you're talking about. Not only that, the admins and devs give their time freely to do what they can when they can. Silly people that they are, they want a life too. They have jobs and families just like the rest of us.
I will say to any and all (and even to myself) ... If you're that flippin unhappy with the game, don't play. It's that simple. There's tons and tons of RPG's, MMORPGs, etc etc ... go find something else**. If all you're going to do is whine and b*tch about how miserable you are ... go away. It's not helpful to anyone.
The devs and admins both have repeatedly asked for your help. They want your suggestions. What most devs and admins (in general) don't want is "whine, b*tch, piss, moan .. this is horrible .. fix it now, and fix it my way or i'm leaving". It's not useful or helpful.
Better yet ... if you think this world sucks and you can do it better ... go do it! Don't beat them up about it ... go build yer own mousetrap. I've done it. I (and several others) got so pissed at the way several forums were run, we finally went and made our own. Not that it was a raving success ... but I tell ya what ... it sure gave me a much better understanding of what the admins were going thru. (Though I still think ours is better than theirs ... but I'm biased).
Guess what else ... at the end of the day ... PS is going to go the way it's going to go. If I remember what I've read on the main page correctly, PS was started as part of a bigger project, and now is a project of it's own. So it will go as it will.
Anyway ... that's just my $.02 Let the beatings and the flamings commence.
*steps down and drags her soapbox away*
~*~*~ EDIT ~*~*~
** For any of you that are interested ... here's a link that provides a TON of MMORPG's of various genres:
http://play-free-online-games.com/games/games_rpg.html
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i was wondering when someone was going to do something like this. many people come here because they have heard about it on some site, that it is a good free mmorpg and never bother to read anything on the site. then they come and sign up on these forums and go to the linux game tome and say the game sucks, but they never thought about helping the project along, or that it isn't even close to done. they don't actually need to learn any coding or how to use any art programs, they can contribute by just playing the game or offering unique ideas. It says somewhere that we are first testers, then gamers so by just playing the game, supporting this project, and finding bugs, those people could help it along. I am learning how to use blender and i hope to be able to one day, make something that can go into the game(i hope so :)).
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\\o// Bravo. I totally agree. People here tend to think that the devs want to ruin their game, what an idiotic belief. No-one wants to spend countless hours, voluntarily, to make a crap game! Every change is implemented to make the game better. If you disagree that certain changes make the game better then calmly explain why you think that and make your own suggestions. Stop acting like 3 year olds.
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Tottaly aggred! you rock ShadowKat :thumbup:
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*drags out her big soapbox and drags it to the square*
[EVERY word of it.]
*steps down and drags her soapbox away*
\\o// \\o// \\o//
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I agree completely.
I only think constructive criticism should be dealt out, this helps devs. Otherwise it's just meaningless ranting.
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For the first time in so very long, I am moved to post. *curtsies deeply to ShadowKat* I not only agree whole-heartedly with what you said....you said it very well. :)
I would go so far as to say that if you had the time, look into actually becoming a dev. They work hard, and have been putting out some really amazing things for us lately; with even more astounding things to come I'm sure.
Anyway, Bravo and Kudos on a brave, beautiful and well-spoken post.
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dont forget we are all testers and just as vital as the devs to this game. whether its constructive or not every word we speak about this game helps it develop. so dont just get it stuck in your mind its free dont whine. thats why its open beta.
also it will always be in beta. so get used to it.
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Dont tell people to try develop their own game, because they dont like PS. They might actualy try it. There have been many people that have started wierd and very unsuccessful MMO projects on their own. Its not like they say - "Yay, what a revelation! Now i see how hard it is and Planeshift is the gratest game of all time!" afterwards. Please dont encourage them. I think PS has already lost a lot of staff because of it, tho i am not exactly sure about it.
Somehow i dout your target audience will read this thread, because they are just here to complain, not to listen to the opinions of other people. Take me for example!
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Crj: We haven't lost a single developer because they moved on to start their own game project. Some developers have left because they now work on professional games, but that's real-life-job related so it's a bit different :)
Some devs have also left for other reasons, a good portion of which was being driven away by the whiners, actually - so careful guys. Even if you have good intentions, the way you voice your opinions or complaints can push away the very people you're trying to help. It doesn't always work to come in and say "I complain to you because I care about this project," when you seem to very obviously not care about the people who make this project possible. I will tell you right now - there will always be players. But there won't always be the talented and skilled developers we've had over this project's time.
(A disclaimer: there are many incredible players who bring a lot of life to the game, as well. By no means do I mean to brush their contributions off as insignificant. I am pointing out that without developers to continue the project, these players will have little to use for their stories.)
But then again, no one listens anyway... :]
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whether its constructive or not every word we speak about this game helps it develop. so dont just get it stuck in your mind its free dont whine. thats why its open beta.
also it will always be in beta. so get used to it.
Wrong and wrong.
and particularly in your case . . .wrong :D
To everyone else thanks for the kind thoughts. Do what you can to take the time to beat back the trolls with your own posts so we are free to stick to our work. Perpetual accusations, demands, whining, threats to quit, bla bla bla, really do nothing to promote the game's development.
Only good ideas further the projects as a whole.
I can tell you I answer well stated friendly complaints faster than the crappy mean ones ;).
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I do not wish to be crappy or mean but it seems to me that the 'official voice' of PS on these forums has become a little overly defensive. I understand that it can at times feel like you are unappreciated and sometimes distinctly targeted for abuse and sometimes you really are. I think, however, that a return to your patient forbearance is in order with response to specific cases by PM when necessary. If you think that a complaint is without much merit and your initial rebuttal is ignored, that is when to take it to PMs or write it off as an insolvable difference.
I do understand that some people cannot let a dead horse rot in piece and that is where the thread lock comes in handy.
Try not to let it be your head in somebodies soup. If they get your goat they will think they won.
All that said, I have not tried to run a forum nor respond to a user community so perhaps my perception is a little unrealistic. Take it for whatever it is worth and nothing more.
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Is it human to complain? We want everything now and we want the best. I have learned that patience does really pay off. If we wait patiently for things to improve it will happen. If we do not the end result can be worse then we even thought possible. Can we not be grateful for what we have? Think of all the
people who have put endless hours into this project for our enjoyment. It is the idea that the ‘squeaky wheel gets the grease’? This is not always true. For that matter is can make matters worse. Is true that if we complain enough we might loose the developers that we have? Can you imagine not having anyone to make this game? Then it would be gone. As I said before in “My Complaint” let us all be nice to Talad, the developers, game masters, and our fellow players. Once in a great while let us say ‘Thank you’ instead of saying, “If I have control of this project I could do it better.” Stop complaining unless you really do not have something constructive to say. I really do hope the complainers do read this, it may open their eyes. If you cannot do anything but complain then maybe you should leave so the rest of us can enjoy what we have come to know as our ‘home away from home.’
You do not know how good it is until it is gone. Trust me I know.
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/me watches Bambi
"if you don't have anything nice to say....don't say anything at all..."
hehe sorry that's what this is all reminding me of. I will be quiet now.
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Np Bilbous, just realize that there is less malice in my words than people may think.
the whole idea of feeding the troll applies, although i do not think ignoring is the best approach in all cases.
if responding to someone's trollishness is something that brings more trollishness out of them, a pm is only worse.
Believe me I have some amazingly poisonous pms in my mail box.
I prefer to air grievances, people cannot curse at me here :).
I cannot speak for everyone on the dev team but I can say a vacillate between wanting to stay in touch with the player community, and wanting to never open the forums or main irc channel again, due to what i feel are the worst members of the community and the general silence of those who enjoy our hard work.
To your credit Bilbous, imo, when you have something to say you tend to say it well and without ugliness.
I think threads like this, which sporadically pop up, do help morale, the underlying thing stated here is players taking the trolls to task.
If anyone wants the ultimate way to aid us, apply.
If anyone want to make me personally feel better about the state of RP in ps, stop hanging out at harnquist's ;)
My thanks to everyone who has positive constructive ideas to contribute and does so elegantly.
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I have to say I'm a bit surprised (nicely so) at the response so far. I was quite sure I was going to get completely roasted for my post. So thank you. :)
I've edited my post, adding a link for those that wish to journey on to other fields. If PS is not the game for them, perhaps at that page they will find one that is more to their liking.
@ Con - No we are not as vital to this game as the Devs. Without them to create the game there would be nothing for us to test. And non-constructive criticism (or b*tching) is not helpful. All it does is piss people off. Anything you were trying to say gets lost.
@ Crj - I have no fear of losing Devs because of this post. Simply because of the fact that it is not aimed at them. I'm not telling them to go build their own mousetrap ... they're already here building this one ;) It's to the other folks that think they can build a bigger, badder, better one. Perhaps they can. More power to them. If they can, they should go build their own instead of trying to force this one in a direction that the creators do not wish. It is the Devs and creators vision. And while they look for our input, it truly is their dream to carry forward in whatever fashion that goes ... not ours.
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I think we need a new forum status line under posts, One that conveys the feeling towards the player by the Dev/GM/Moderator staff.
Unnamed_Source
Hydlaa Resident
Posts: 119
Troll: YES/NO
A simple vote cast by those in charge as to what they think of the persons attitude, one vote per posting.
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had something like that before. with in 1 day of it being enabled, it was ultimately proved useless and pointless, so no.
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Hello all!
When I read the post of ShadowKat yesterday, I was inspired! Truly inspired! I was proud being part of this community even if this sounds trite. Then today I read the comments and I'm thinking how the attempt to repulse those continuous whining leads to many long threads concerning those conflict and this casts a shadow on the forum. :offtopic: In my opinion we should concentrate on how and what we could contribute and not on trying to change people and their opinion (please don't get me wrong - not to ignore but to not concentrate on it). Otherwise is might prove to be digging in the wrong place. :-\
After all there are here to have fun and not to charge the atmosphere with electricity even more shouting at each other. I'm just afraid that little good will come out of it. :(
greetings,
morla
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had something like that before. with in 1 day of it being enabled, it was ultimately proved useless and pointless, so no.
Damn... I was hoping to advertise my warty hide. Well, on the other hand, I will still be fed.
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Wrong and wrong.
and particularly in your case . . .wrong Cheesy
To everyone else thanks for the kind thoughts. Do what you can to take the time to beat back the trolls with your own posts so we are free to stick to our work. Perpetual accusations, demands, whining, threats to quit, bla bla bla, really do nothing to promote the game's development.
Only good ideas further the projects as a whole.
oh really? well gee here i was thinking everything we post gives a general idea of the what kind of players will be playing the game. im not just talking about ideas. if someone has a great idea but puts in bad context and you choose to ignore it thats fine(pretty stupid to me but fine) but even when people post "this game sucks and this is why" that tells you why this type of player doesnt like the game, you should see what he put and you understand that kind of player.
if all you people look at is well written, polite, and enjoyable post and go off of that, then your game will be only targetted to a small amount of people.
and if a dev leaves because of whiners.... then thats a sad person and needs to grab a kleenex and cry about it. your talking about a video game on the internet. one that develops slower than a snail. of course its going to be alot of whining. that will probably be the majority of thoughts. hell most games already out are outnumbered by trash talkers than people uping the game.
a dev should look at everything people post because we are the testers. and good devs want feedback no matter what on a game.
insults are excluded from this.
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There have been a good number of bad reviews from players that have been written politely and without whining. Thing is when people whine there is a 99.9% chance they are whining about something somebody has already politely pointed out to the Devs. And besides, expecting the Devs to go out of their way for players who do nothing more than complain is silly.
That small amount of people may be all the Devs want to target. I'll ask around but I doubt many Devs want the people who are constantly whining about usually invalid stuff to keep on playing ;)
If a Dev leaves because of whiners then the player community is at fault. And you'll notice that with those games you mentioned the devs often hire testers to test their games and, for the most part, ignore the whining. I know this, I was a professional tester and one of the main rules was "Be polite", Devs often ignore the most valid of points unless it's brought to them in a polite manner.
A player shouldn't whine. And, the grand majority of people who play PlaneShift put player before tester. Testers should go through the bugtracker and try to make bugs listed there repeat while, at other times, posting bugs of their own.
Everybody expects the outmost professionalism from the Devs and nothing from the so-called testers.
@ShadowKat: Amazing thread. I couldn't have done it better :)
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well not everyone is professional, like me, i respond when i just get off 3rd shift so im mad tired. but either way if u think every bit of feedback from testers doesnt help development then your dumb. plain and simple. it gives the devs an idea of who plays the game whether they stay for 2 seconds or years. and thats the key for making a great game.
constant whining of course is dismissed. i would expect that. but like my "rant" that was 1 whine that i freaked out about. and i prolly wont do that for a year or so and if that didnt help the devs get an idea about a certain tester than they are going in the wrong direction with the game.
i cant see another reason for making this game open beta but to get feedback from players. no reason to make it open beta unless your struggling for devs.
and i must disagree. if a dev leaves because of whiners its the devs fault. they are too sensitive and need to realize if they want to develop on an open beta they need to realize that majority of the internet community are whiners. so thats something they must get used to.
thats like saying someone quit college football because people boo'd them even tho they had great potential.
any dev who leaves cause they hear people cry on the forums is a whinebox themselves and dont deserve to see something they create.
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majority of the internet community are whiners.
Actually, minority. They are just the loudest.
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Coneitic, I swear the next time I see you insulting developers on this forum you will be shown the door. This is your final warning.
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that was a pm no need to broadcast that kayruu.... and i wasnt insulting any dev, if anything i was judging the ones that had already left the project so i feel that was unfair.
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Well, you did call a prospect "dumb" up there.
Though I always find saying "your" before dumb/idiot/stupid to be a sweet, sweet irony.
Now. Maybe I'm being too sensitive*, but I'm not a dumbass, Coneitic. I'm not actually being paid here. I'm not paid to read or ignore your rants. I'm not paid to avoid the forums, irc fan channel and whatever else, hiding for the fear of facing annoying players. I'm not paid to just shut my mouth and carry on with my tasks. I'm here because I enjoy the act of creation and because I find the challenges here to be good for my experience. But you know what? There are many different places where I can find both more experience and enjoyment. Right now? I'm neither paid nor willing to deal with people like you. I realise you probably don't care about my input here and there's enough of devs around anyway. But you think I'll care about your "sensitivity" remarks or this project in general if people like you continue your "help" for the developers? Try me.
* isn't this actually expected for many skilled writers and visual artists? You want artists that lack sensitivity or something?
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ummm that came out of the blue.. i didnt know you were so sensitive.
but either way you act like you never went to high school, or maybe ur still in high school.
or maybe you went right from high school to college.
or maybe just maybe you didnt grow up. but check it.
the world is hard. the world is full of insensitive people. the world is full of assholes, and douchebags.
but heres the key. see i learned this about 2 or 3 years ago. if your you.. and you enjoy being you. you dont let that effect you.
so lets put it down in ps terms.
this game is volunteer right? this game is for fun right? so if you like coding, you like designing a game. you like... i dunno you handle rp right? you like that. you dont let people, you can say people like me, you can say anyone who is a complete ass, stop you from doing what you like. because once your an adult, you pick and choose who you spend time with. when you become an adult you figure out that its about YOU. what you like, what you want.
and if you cant handle criticism or personal attacks, or even whining about what you like to do. then you need to run away to the jungle and not live with people. because the worlds tough. and if you let anyone, anything interfere with what you enjoy and what makes you happy then theres no point on living.
so to sum it up. if you stop doing what you like because of another group of people, your a crybaby and need to get a tissue to wipe them tears.
grow up.
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but either way you act like you never went to high school, or maybe ur still in high school.
The way you write, spell, punctuate and comport yourself its like you never went to grade school! And incidentally, any derision you get on these forums is not "out of the blue"! *whistles and walks away*
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Well I have two words for you, Coneitic:
Boo hoo.
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and i must disagree. if a dev leaves because of whiners its the devs fault. they are too sensitive and need to realize if they want to develop on an open beta they need to realize that majority of the internet community are whiners. so thats something they must get used to.
any dev who leaves cause they hear people cry on the forums is a whinebox themselves and dont deserve to see something they create.
And people who get murdered should have been able to defend themselves?
"Do onto others whatever you want because it's their fault they can't stop you"?
The community whines about how slow this project is, that is the irony of it all. They whine and whine and drive away developers and then turn around, ask why it's going so slow, get their answer, say the devs should be able to handle critisism and that it's not their fault they are whiny idiots...
Long live the community.
Disclaimer: I think I might add this part to my sig "Some Players of the community are amazing."
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\\o// @ ShadowKat
Nicely put, usually it's the complainers who tend to take up much of the forums with much the same recycled dev-bashing, nice to see more positive expressions of appreciation.
Certain people seem to be of the impression that they have a right to express these negative sentiments, simply based on the fact that they have been around a long time and convey the impression that they are 'owed something' for their time, namely that their input will be given extra weight based soley on the fact that they can shout loud and long on these forums.
Sorry to burst anyones bubble, but it's actually the devs that are owed something, our support, it's such a small thing really, but in fact essential both for the play testers, (us players, lest we forget are testing this game), and the dev team, not only are they owed the bug reports, and the problems we have in installing and running the software on our machines, but our thanks for having something to actually test. Equally the devs owe us a little time to listen to our wishes, our hopes and fears on the various directions the game is taking, and to an extent our complaints, however they have no need to be constantly harrased by particular players. Without the devs there would be no game, however the same cannot be truly said of we players, there is no requirement for such a large number of play testers this early in development, in fact we're priviledged to be a part of this project.
I for one truly appreciate the hard work the dev team puts into the continued growth of the game, sometimes it may seem to the players that not much is happening, however just because we don't see continual, large scale, and visible improvements every week or two is no reason to continually whine about the 'slow pace of development'. We are not privy to the work going on behind the scenes, or the pace of change, until an update is released there is no obligation on the part of the dev team to inform us of progress, and for every update there will be new bugs and problems for us to report, after all that's our primary purpose, extended play testing.
I have worked on a number of projects for my company, and know the frustration that can develop when the customer is not satisfied with the progress, and can empathise with the feelings of any members of the dev team who have felt that they could not continue to work on this project due to their feeling unappreciated by the loudest complainers, perhaps some support would have helped persuade some that their work was not in vain, however it's a sad fact of human nature that we tend to remain silent until we have something to complain about.
I for one will be reporting any problems I find in game with as much useful information as possible, without any impatience or frustration, since I too am aware of the importance of clear, concise and constructive criticism.
this game is volunteer right? this game is for fun right? so if you like coding, you like designing a game. you like... i dunno you handle rp right? you like that. you dont let people, you can say people like me, you can say anyone who is a complete ass, stop you from doing what you like. because once your an adult, you pick and choose who you spend time with. when you become an adult you figure out that its about YOU. what you like, what you want.
and if you cant handle criticism or personal attacks, or even whining about what you like to do. then you need to run away to the jungle and not live with people. because the worlds tough. and if you let anyone, anything interfere with what you enjoy and what makes you happy then theres no point on living.
so to sum it up. if you stop doing what you like because of another group of people, your a crybaby and need to get a tissue to wipe them tears.
grow up.
And for your information Coneitic, it's not about YOU, it's about realising that there is more to life than your own juvenile self-gratification, I learned that about 20 years ago, go think on it, and when you can frame a cogent and coherent reply without constant self-reference, then by all means feel free to comment.
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To the handful of people throwing around insults about other’s educational background, implied intelligence, and maturity, knock it off. In my opinion it only shows insecurity on your own part and doesn’t exactly contribute to the discussion.
To Coneitic, take a deep breath the world is not out to get you. While life certainly can be tough at times and has its share of jerks and idiots, most of the people out there aren’t half bad, and the ones that are miserable excuses for human beings are usually too self-absorbed to really pay too much attention to you anyway.
Also, while it’s understandable that you’re not exactly in the best mood when you get off of a long day’s work, the PS forums are not an appropriate place to vent frustration. It’s not why we’re here, and it makes perfect sense that people get annoyed when they read what could quite easily be perceived as a rant, though well intentioned it may be.
At the risk of actually going back on topic :P Nice post Kat, too often people forget that no one is twisting their arm to play PS and that the devs aren’t their personal game creating employees. The devs have their own vision and that may conflict with some of the player’s ideas but, as the old saying goes, “when you try to please everyone, you please nobody.” Fortunately we live in a world full of choices and if PS isn’t your thing or is heading in a direction you can’t live with, you don’t have to, move on to greener pastures and feel free to never look back.
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People are different. Devs are people. If I do a drawing that I find myself proud of and someone tells me its awful then I probably wont draw another for 2 months. You have to understand complaining about a Devs work can have the same effect. Whereas if I was writing a story I would go straight back and improve it if someone criticized it. Its nice when a Dev has an instantly persevering quality, they aren't paid, its not required. Obviously if its not up to scratch they will have to fix it eventually. but constant whining will do no good for their short term moral. Understand also insulting someone's personality will hurt their feelings. In the case of the Dev team that hurt is not deserved.
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/me hugs Feline Prince
My thoughts in your words :)
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http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=29820.msg341722#msg341722
I call this complete lie. I saw too many people leaving PS because of it's way of developement, I saw now 9 artists and minimaly 7 coders leaving PS because it hmm 'sux'. I won't name them as I don't know if they wish to be mentioned.
PS is beta opensource game, but somehow devs and people forget that as not having stable and bugfree system it's completly stupid to try to play on finished game with :
1: hiding bugs from bugtracker > deleting (in past they used to be delteted) and setting bugs private
It's completly against OS logic as lately a lot of fixes came from community and lot of them were fixing realy big security/exploiting issues
2: making me PL 48 hours just to test stupid magic won't help with finding bugs (devs already got poked with _quite_ long list of bugs in magic)
so what about more often having wipes and much easier to train?
What about stopping to hide bugs and leaving community to 'play' it's role?
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http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=29820.msg341722#msg341722
I call this complete lie. I saw too many people leaving PS because of it's way of developement, I saw now 9 artists and minimaly 7 coders leaving PS because it hmm 'sux'. I won't name them as I don't know if they wish to be mentioned.
Without names this is doubtful. And they were probably not devs but prospects. If somebody was going to leave PS because it sux they wouldn't wait the months it takes to become Developers.
PS is beta opensource game, but somehow devs and people forget that as not having stable and bugfree system it's completly stupid to try to play on finished game with :
1: hiding bugs from bugtracker > deleting (in past they used to be delteted) and setting bugs private
It's completly against OS logic as lately a lot of fixes came from community and lot of them were fixing realy big security/exploiting issues
Way to call the devs completely stupid, first off. Sorry "Completly".
1) Many settings bugs need to be private, otherwise people could go use spoilers from the database. Now, if Devs didn't find spoiler list after spoiler list they may not worry about this...
2) I don't know about hidden bugs. I imagine they were just badly written or such. But, I do not know.
3) PlaneShift isn't your run of the mill OS project.
2: making me PL 48 hours just to test stupid magic won't help with finding bugs (devs already got poked with _quite_ long list of bugs in magic)
so what about more often having wipes and much easier to train?
What about stopping to hide bugs and leaving community to 'play' it's role?
Yes it will. In fact... that would be exactly what testing is. Congratulations. In fact, testing would be having you do that and, if you encounter a bug, redoing that bug, again and again. You'd then have to come up with a recursion rate (The % of times it happened while trying to repeat) and narrow it down to up to around a dozen steps needed to trigger the bug (-step here, -step there - equip this) and so on and so forth.
The game needs to move forward, the training is being balanced but it is the training that will be in the final release. For matters that need a certain level there are GMs who can set themselves to that level.
The community has again and again shown that the role they want to play is that of players, there is a large number of bugs on the bugtracker (not nearly enough for how long the game has been out) but, many of these are dupes and only a few players know how to write a decent bug report (Every single bit of information that may, in the smallest of ways, cause any part of the bug should be in there.) If you are an exception, apply to the GM team, I believe they do much testing.
"Tester first, player second." Maybe if you actually live by that you can use it as an argument. As it is there is maybe a dozen people who can say they test.
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Way to call the devs completely stupid, first off. Sorry "Completly".
1) Many settings bugs need to be private, otherwise people could go use spoilers from the database. Now, if Devs didn't find spoiler list after spoiler list they may not worry about this...
2) I don't know about hidden bugs. I imagine they were just badly written or such. But, I do not know.
3) PlaneShift isn't your run of the mill OS project.
1)If you set 'quick rates' wipes won't matter > bugs can stay open
2)Whole planeshift is badly writen without some basic style or anything.
3)Are you sure?
I won't start listing names, but belive me I know whey too much to stay silent if someone lies like that. :-X
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1) No idea what you are talking about. I'm saying that the devs don't like quest spoilers so they keep bugs that spoil quests private. (spoiler: walkthrough)
2) Please rephrase, not sure what you are saying.
3) Oh, there are other fully 3D Opensource MMORPGs out there? I haven't found any. Please link if you know them, though.
As I said, I imagine they are prospects, you've not addressed that.
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There is PT for example, bunch of people who disliked PS code :-\
Yeah but quests are proprietary they shouldn't even be on bugtracker... I'm talking about OS part of game if you didn't noticed.
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One other one. That makes it quite none-run of the mill, doesn't it?
And you were talking about bugtracker. Where bugs are made private. I explained why some were.
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There is PT for example, bunch of people who disliked PS code :-\
A bunch of people who for some odd reason weren't accepted into the PS team, actually. Well, that and people who never applied to PS and people who never had anything to do with PS.
One person doesn't like code of one location, and suddenly it's a whole bunch of PS code haters :P
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We should get back on topic. Give the developers a round of applause for all they do for us. Maybe it is the players that need to take a long hard look at themselves to make this game back to what it should be. It just might explain why all the good players are now gone.
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To be honest, most good players seem to be making a return, ss of late. Perhaps not all the way to PlaneShift but they are coming back into contact.
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Disclaimer: Not meant at the general public. Target select people only.
I'm tired of whiners and tired of people thinking that they're either abused or always right or we're the bad guys and we never listen and it's so unfair and we're out to ruin everyone's time and nothing we do is for the players and we're selfish and we should be tough all the time and yet still down to earth and please every player faction and do all that people want and prioritize based on what they think they know rather than what we internally know and can do and yadda yadda yadda.
Socia: Way to go calling me a liar and then saying that we had 9 artists leave. Are you on the team? Were you in contact with art WTBs? Because I have been here since Moogie, and I know each and every single art dev that has been on the team since she left. Name me some names, sweetie. And by the way: prospects aren't developers, and they can't "leave" a project if they've never officially joined it. When they are WTB, then they can be counted in.
Listen. I don't come here to be bitched at by anyone, and the moment I feel that this is no longer something that brings me any joy because of the sheer amount of stupid and misinformation (so much misinformation!) and arrogance and sheer hate directed in the team's direction, I will leave this board. And you'll have to deal with what that will mean. You, not me, who will be somewhere else doing other things and be happier for it. I will stop listening to player complaints. I will stop listening to player opinions. I will stop sharing anything I know with the community. I will continue creating art assets based on our release plans and fixing bugs via the BT, and nothing more. I am on the verge right now and 100% serious about it.
You are the ones who create the very deaf ear you complain about later.
And you know what, at some point I couldn't care less.
With this thread, I am most certainly through. Thanks to those who have shown their support - you guys are amazing.
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I will leave this board. And you'll have to deal with what that will mean. You, not me, who will be somewhere else doing other things and be happier for it. I will stop listening to player complaints. I will stop listening to player opinions. I will stop sharing anything I know with the community. I will continue creating art assets based on our release plans and fixing bugs via the BT, and nothing more. I am on the verge right now and 100% serious about it.
With this thread, I am most certainly through. Thanks to those who have shown their support - you guys are amazing.
Please Karyuu, don't do it ... ask one of the engine devs to write you a small filter for making the forums a good place for you ... but please,
please don't leave those who need your support.
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/me drags out a bigger soapbox, puts the insulting people and trolls in it and nails the top down, then drags it off before returning.
Be very glad I am not a moderator. I am not so kind as others when it comes to unfounded insults and petty arguing. I am not going to defend the Devs, as they need none. I am not going to support the players’ ‘side’, as -believe it or not- that is what the Devs are doing.
The game is evolving and changing all the time. If it is not fast enough, tuff. If it is not in the direction you wanted, then you can “make your voice heard”, but do not expect the world to bow down before you, especially if you act disrespectful and demeaning. This is not a birds’ nest, and the loudest criers do not get the worm.
That is not to say Devs don’t make mistakes sometimes (or there would be no bug tracker). But all in all, I have far more complains about players’ behavior and actions than I do with the Devs. The difference?
Devs are willing to listen.
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I think most of us ( the team ) realize that we won't be beating Warcraft anytime soon but that's part of why the team is successful. We realize that we have to set realistic goals and take small steps. A lot of these projects end up biting off more than they can do at once and get fustrated and just toss up their hands under the weight of their ideals. We set the bar low to start with and raise it up as we go. Considering from where we started we are doing pretty good. Just need to push that bar a bit higher.
Does the project move slowly? Depends on how you look at it, from a player point of view it probably moves pretty slowly with some jumps as new stuff is added. From a developer point of view it's rather a lot quicker than that. Something is always being refactored or changed or fixed. The key point here is that work is always going on. Even if it's at a snails pace sometimes work is continuing. The time to worrry and complain is when all development stops and the project just rots. I'd like to think the project is big enough now that can't happen.
I don't care if people think the project sucks if they can give good reasons ( not something like "No mounts? OMG!!1! you are sucks" ). But I do care when people discount our work or our efforts. We put in a lot of time and effort into the project and when somebody comes along and tries to convince people otherwise, that's when I take offense.
It comes down to four groups:
1) You think the game sucks, you delete it and never do anything with it again.
2) You think the game sucks and run to the forums to tell as many people as you can.
3) You think the game sucks and you post on the forums and have good reasons why and willing to be patient.
4) You think the game is ok and play it offering ideas what makes it better.
I can live without #1 and #2 and will do our best to help with #3 and #4.
Probably rambling here but killing some time before going home from work. I will touch on the idea "If you don't like it do something to fix it!" or "why don't you join the team and fix it". Personally, I'd like to see those not mentioned any more. Right now it's a complex system and their chances of actually doing something to fix it are about nil. Now there are a few exceptions and we have found some diamonds in the rough who actually do fix things.
When it comes to bugs or features they are usually:
1) Easy to fix
2) Complicated to fix
Complicated to fix either means that we have no idea how to fix it or no idea why it occurs. The other thing it could mean is that there is a fundamental deisgn issue that needs to be resolved. Hence a small bug might take weeks ( months! ) to sovle depending on the structures it affects. Having to re-design entire sections of the code is not very easy because we can't just pull it out and fix it. It's like trying to fix an engine on a moving car. You have to be careful about the things you do.
Also, not sure who you are refering to that has left the team. I know of a few 'developers' that left for various reasons and only one that had differences about how the team was run. Everybody else seemed to fade away as we got more people. If they had significant issues ( ie PS sux ) then why did they not bring them to me so we can address them? I've said many times that parts of our code suck and working hard to isolate and remove those areas. So not sure who you are refering to in your post about people leaving.
And another thing. Where did the idea that we are some sort of super secret stonecutters organization? You know the real reason why stuff is 'secret'? Because for a while there we really didn't have that much to release. So needed every 'suprise' that we could get. Now that we have settings and art working full steam I would expect more 'stuff' to be shown.
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This post is shorter than it looks! ;)
Crj: We haven't lost a single developer because they moved on to start their own game project. Some developers have left because they now work on professional games, but that's real-life-job related so it's a bit different :)
There are people who have left and now have their own projects (Platnya and Moogie?), but they didn't leave PS because of their projects.
Some devs have also left for other reasons, a good portion of which was being driven away by the whiners, actually - so careful guys.
I've heard this from some people, but it's not really true. In almost every case, the person in question had problems with the community or personality issues. You obviously know a bit more than I do, but I don't know of a single case of a dev truely leaving because of "the whiners".
I do not wish to be crappy or mean but it seems to me that the 'official voice' of PS on these forums has become a little overly defensive.
There are a number of problems with the people involved with the project, but you have to keep in mind a few things. They are volunteers. They aren't getting paid to be polite or to put up with crap. They typically have a large personal investment in the project, so it's natural for them to be touchy when it comes to criticism - no matter how constructive. And they're basically kids. We're talking about teenagers and people in their early 20's with a number of exceptions. It's not fair to have high and heavy expectations in terms of their behaviour and maturity.
if a dev leaves because of whiners its the devs fault. they are too sensitive and need to realize if they want to develop on an open beta they need to realize that majority of the internet community are whiners. so thats something they must get used to.
Again, it's an issue of maturity.
Listen. I don't come here to be bitched at by anyone, and the moment I feel that this is no longer something that brings me any joy because of the sheer amount of stupid and misinformation (so much misinformation!) and arrogance and sheer hate directed in the team's direction, I will leave this board...Thanks to those who have shown their support - you guys are amazing.
I think it's quite possible that supporting you means encouraging you to leave the board for the sake of your own happiness. Others can pick up the slack.
I think most of us ( the team ) realize that we won't be beating Warcraft anytime soon but that's part of why the team is successful.
Yeah, there is that, but for a team to be successful you also need to know how to take care of people. I'm not sure the PS team is very good at that.
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I think most of us ( the team ) realize that we won't be beating Warcraft anytime soon but that's part of why the team is successful.
Yeah, there is that, but for a team to be successful you also need to know how to take care of people. I'm not sure the PS team is very good at that.
Explain?
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I think most of us ( the team ) realize that we won't be beating Warcraft anytime soon but that's part of why the team is successful.
Yeah, there is that, but for a team to be successful you also need to know how to take care of people. I'm not sure the PS team is very good at that.
Explain?
You and I have both witnessed out of control team members. We've had candid discussions about them. Some have left, some are still here. If you want me to name names and link to posts, I think that would be more appropriate in a PM. Many of those posts have been deleted though in order to protect devs and moderators from their own poor judgment, and I'm not sure you're so ignorant of their lapses in judgment as your question suggests.
Taking care of people goes both ways though. Just as individuals like Moogie, Demarthl, and DaveG weren't good at taking care of people, we weren't good at taking care of them. They were put into positions they weren't fit for. They weren't given the tools they needed to succeed. They were set up to fail. Players such as myself didn't help by being so confrontational and self righteous, but I hold players to a lower standard than actual team members and I especially hold players to lower standards than individuals in leadership positions such as Xillix and Vengeance. Other individuals have suffered from the culture as well, Karyuu being a more recent casualty though the warning signs were there for a year.
Planeshift is facing a crisis of leadership and community. It cannot afford a culture where it is ok for devs to treat others as their lesser. It cannot afford a culture where it is ok to be abusive if you happen to hold authority and power. As a leader, you are a servant to those under you. Not the other way around. Xillix preaches that to join the team you must know humility, but humility is far more important for those at the top. You are required to put your ego aside and to forget about your personal vendettas and knee jerk reactions. Do you protect your own? Yes. But you do it in such a way – you do EVERYTHING in such a way – that everyone comes out feeling a winner. You do not pick on people. You do not insult or harass people. You do not encourage others to engage in such activities through either example or turning a blind eye.
I'm not sure how else to put it.
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The obvious problem is the team being too soft on the players.
From all discussion boards I visited, Planeshift forums have the softest approach and at the same time spawn the most chaos.
In places with strict moderation it's something completely safe to allow political/religious discussions, whereas over here this is a no-no.
Some professional boards will even state all negative posts will be deleted.
I'm actually surprised to see an admin give a polite reply to a topic, which falls under an obvious case of "deletion+warning material" in most professional/semi-professional forums.
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I don't see it as being soft. Being polite doesn't mean you agree with the person. You can respect the person without respecting their ideas, or even their behaviour.
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See, you don't see it as soft.
People from different boards will.
That's the difference. Over there people know when to state their opinions and when to shut up.
Over here people believe it's their genuine right to argue with moderators.
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I could delete everything I don't care to read? Would that make you feel better?
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See, you don't see it as soft.
People from different boards will.
That's the difference. Over there people know when to state their opinions and when to shut up.
Over here people believe it's their genuine right to argue with moderators.
I've been a member on quite a few boards since the mid 90's. I've witnessed quite a few moderation styles and their effects. I see treating people like human beings as a good thing, especially when you're talking about a community as reliant on fresh blood and cooperation as this one.
I could delete everything I don't care to read? Would that make you feel better?
I can share with you my observations and experience. Ultimately, it's up to you how you conduct yourself. Personally, I don't see why you feel it's necessary to protect your authority by making threats. In fact, I don't see why you think it's necessary to protect your authority at all since it isn't being questioned. All I can point out are the consequences of your actions, whether they be hate literature on the net or losing individuals like Karyuu.
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I've been a member on quite a few boards since the mid 90's. I've witnessed quite a few moderation styles and their effects. I see treating people like human beings as a good thing, especially when you're talking about a community as reliant on fresh blood and cooperation as this one.
When we're talking about community reliant on fresh blood, it's important to have a friendly community. And if you want a friendly community, it's better to kick three trouble-makers in their faces, rather than allow the said three argue with devs and moderators on and on until the boards are seen as root of all evil and widely avoided by decent community members (as it is happening now).
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I've been a member on quite a few boards since the mid 90's. I've witnessed quite a few moderation styles and their effects. I see treating people like human beings as a good thing, especially when you're talking about a community as reliant on fresh blood and cooperation as this one.
When we're talking about community reliant on fresh blood, it's important to have a friendly community. And if you want a friendly community, it's better to kick three trouble-makers in their faces, rather than allow the said three argue with devs and moderators on and on until the boards are seen as root of all evil and widely avoided by decent community members (as it is happening now).
Do you honestly believe that's the situation here? I'm afraid it goes far beyond that from what I've seen during my time here, and many others seem to agree.
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Looking at the accusation (concerning consequences) towards Neko's actions you posted up there, I don't think you have a near to decent idea on the situation that's happening here. This isn't to say I think the situation is deep at all. In fact, it's downright shallow.
It's based on a simple thing called frustration. Everyone are frustrated and that doesn't do well for professionalism.
How much abuse one can take before getting frustrated depends on personality. But professional or not, in certain environments everyone are going to get frustrated at one point or another.
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Leaders as servants of the people eh, Zanzi?
I don't quite agree with assigning them an inhuman elevated position.
The inability to make mistakes does not make a better person. It is the act of messing up occasionally, acknowledging that fact and learning a lesson from it that turns us into better human beings.
You say that you see treating people like human beings is a good thing, yet you find that the Devs, moderators and GM's need to act above human standards?
Well I'd much rather have a humane leader who shows emotion and care, at the risk of venting frustration from time to time, than one who acts with professional courtesy at all times but may think we're just a bunch of kids, not worth getting riled up about.
In my opinion, your way creates a gap between player and dev and gives rise to the feelings of superiority, which you want to avoid.
I've seen a lot more emotional involvement and community-dev contact in PS lately and I have to admit that I like that change. I'd much rather have my devs to be people with feelings, who I can talk to ... but whom I can also hurt as a less positive but necessary side-effect ... than elevated servants who stay behind their masks of leadership.
Being human also means you don't need to take someone's crap if you don't want to, it means you can show anger ... as long as you do not become anger.
To round up my, problably pointless, opinion I'd like to say that I commend people like Karyuu and Xillix who give their, sometimes emotional, opinions about certain encounters and show very high levels of maturity at the same time. And I'd like to see the people who think the only defense against the hordes of egocentrical and insensitive internet dwellers is becoming insensitive themselves, being dropkicked back into the stone age.
Don't become an asshole because you're surrounded with assholes, it'll only make the smell worse. :P
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Zan, I think you're missing the big picture here.
Namely what people like Xillix or Karyuu are/were sometimes going through with the current state of forums :<
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Zan, I think you're missing the big picture here. Namely what people like Xillix or Karyuu are/were sometimes going through with the current state of forums :<
It's bigger than just the forums.
Looking at the accusation (concerning consequences) towards Neko's actions you posted up there, I don't think you have a near to decent idea on the situation that's happening here. This isn't to say I think the situation is deep at all. In fact, it's downright shallow.
It's based on a simple thing called frustration. Everyone are frustrated and that doesn't do well for professionalism.
How much abuse one can take before getting frustrated depends on personality. But professional or not, in certain environments everyone are going to get frustrated at one point or another.
Neko's "actions" are only a very small piece of it, and he didn't start off using the tone he now does. I think the evolution of his style as moderator is better understood as symptomatic of the problems. He is, in a sense, another casualty.
Frustration may be a big part of it. If it was only frustation, I'm not sure that would make things shallow. And I'm still not convinced that abuse by the players - if that is indeed the abuse you're alluding to - is an important factor here. I think the devs are smart enough to expect the occassional bad apple, and I think they're capable of the emotional maturity required to not let such bad apples affect them so harshly. But it isn't even bad apples that we're talking about here. It's about callous and abusive treatment of regular and well intentioned players. I guess you could argue that a state of paranoia and extreme defensiveness has been conditioned into them, but I don't find that to be a satisfactory answer.
Leaders as servants of the people eh, Zanzi?
Leaders as servants of the team they lead. Serve the servants so the servants can better serve the people.
I don't quite agree with assigning them an inhuman elevated position. The inability to make mistakes does not make a better person. It is the act of messing up occasionally, acknowledging that fact and learning a lesson from it that turns us into better human beings. You say that you see treating people like human beings is a good thing, yet you find that the Devs, moderators and GM's need to act above human standards? Well I'd much rather have a humane leader who shows emotion and care, at the risk of venting frustration from time to time, than one who acts with professional courtesy at all times but may think we're just a bunch of kids, not worth getting riled up about. In my opinion, your way creates a gap between player and dev and gives rise to the feelings of superiority, which you want to avoid.
There's the trick. Leadership is not something everyone is capable of. This is very true, and you're right to point it out. That's why you should be careful about who you put into a leadership position. And yes, it is important to take care of people without making them feel like they're inferior. Not everyone is capable of it. And it's not professional courtesy I'm talking about. I would say that it's on a level somewhat above that.
I've seen a lot more emotional involvement and community-dev contact in PS lately and I have to admit that I like that change. I'd much rather have my devs to be people with feelings, who I can talk to ... but whom I can also hurt as a less positive but necessary side-effect ... than elevated servants who stay behind their masks of leadership.
Feelings are good. Being abusive is bad. Projecting a mask is not effective leadership.
Being human also means you don't need to take someone's crap if you don't want to, it means you can show anger ... as long as you do not become anger.
I'm very glad you said this! There is a difference between anger and hatred. Hate is based on the need to destroy. Anger is based on a need for change. There is a not so subtle difference.
To round up my, problably pointless, opinion I'd like to say that I commend people like Karyuu and Xillix who give their, sometimes emotional, opinions about certain encounters and show very high levels of maturity at the same time. And I'd like to see the people who think the only defense against the hordes of egocentrical and insensitive internet dwellers is becoming insensitive themselves, being dropkicked back into the stone age. Don't become an asshole because you're surrounded with assholes, it'll only make the smell worse. :P
I don't think your posts are pointless. I think you've compressed everything rather effectively with the line "don't become an asshole because you're surrounded by assholes". I'd rather people remember that if all this crap I'm saying about effective leadership doesn't make sense to them.
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I didn't miss the big picture, Draklar ... I just didn't see the need to give disrespectful people more attention than they deserve :P By the way I do agree with your point, sometimes the moderators of this forum are too gentle. Quite a few people here could use a good spanking to learn more respect for the hardworking men and women that make planeshift possible.
Zanzi, looks like we're on the same level then.
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It comes down to this. Either we post and try to be part of the community or we forsake the forums completely. Personally I would rather keep posting. But if we are going to have these same conversations over and over again it might be better for the development team to just stop posting and just post updates. If you want to hold us to a higher standard then we have to remove ourselves from the community and become a faceless organization posting under the "PlaneShift-Team" name.
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Personally I have no problem with the way the moderation team works. I have more trouble with certain members of the community who feel it is their right and/or responsibility to drive them out.
This board seems quite tolerant to me. Ideally, perhaps there is room for improvement but we do not live in an ideal world. If you continue to drive out the volunteers who are willing to put in the time eventually the board will die. People should try to live up to the standards they expect of other people.
By the way, I do not see board moderation or development team member as positions of leadership. They do amount to a certain kind of authority. It is not the job of the moderators to take crap or teach etiquette. Their job is to enforce the rules. School is out, learn to cope on your own and welcome to the real world. The development team members job is to do what is needed to be done for the development of the game and their presence here although mandated by the development leader is a courtesy to the community and they do not need to take crap either.
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If you want to hold us to a higher standard then we have to remove ourselves from the community and become a faceless organization posting under the "PlaneShift-Team" name.
Which I would prefer myself.
I've had enough of all the people complaining about the "lack of professionalism".
The funny thing is that people apparently expect such and psychologically make the equation "professionalism = faceless organisation" while mentally blank out that behind each organisation are individiuals.
It seems that for the audience PS was too "individual" in the past. Probably it also has to do with the current size and speed of the project. A small project easier is regarded as hobby and individual fun; at a bigger project a different measuring rod is applied.
Now we get compared to real big projects with the result that we're seen as too hobbiest (and therefor unprofessional) which is unthinkable for a project of this size.
Let's say it this way round: PS doesn't fit into either category at this moment. It's not a small individual backyard project, it's not a WoW v.2 either. It's not a linux or a wikipedia and the worst thing is (when trying to categorize PS) the team grows - and with that the content that is not open at all.
PS failed at first as a 2D moneymaker. It became a hobby. Now it grows out of the shoes that fit to the hobby image. Let's become professional - let the whiners whine, ban the abusers, promote the quality contributors, get donations from the players who really enjoy playing - and all that as a faceless organisation as the audience expects it.
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pro·fes·sion·al /prəˈfɛʃənl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pruh-fesh-uh-nl]
–adjective
1. following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.
(http://www.lsh.co.uk/images/cms/david_gilbert_professional.jpg)
vol·un·teer /ˌvɒlənˈtɪər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[vol-uhn-teer] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a person who voluntarily offers himself or herself for a service or undertaking.
2. a person who performs a service willingly and without pay.
3. Military. a person who enters the service voluntarily rather than through conscription or draft, esp. for special or temporary service rather than as a member of the regular or permanent army.
4. Law.
a. a person whose actions are not founded on any legal obligation so to act.
b. a person who intrudes into a matter that does not concern him or her, as a person who pays the debt of another where he or she is neither legally nor morally bound to do so and has no interest to protect in making the payment.
(http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/2326725/2/istockphoto_2326725_i_volunteer.jpg)
I am not a mod or an administrator and therefore have no obligation to be moderate or administrate, if i were one I would be severe indeed, and we would not have seen this thread (which was originally intended to offer us thanks for our work and request greater patience and understanding from posters on this forum) turn into one poster's personal agenda against specific devs. Until I am paid for this work I shall reserve my right to call a troll a troll. Good luck to anyone who has intent to rat on me or any member of my team.
My voice is only privileged in the minds of my readers over other posters by their honoring my contributions relative to their own, no one needs to honor that. I appreciate that some people do respect my opinion, but here, I am just a poster like any other. I never took or gave more or less sh*t than I do today. I do not delete posts and cannot ban people.
I have lost my temper a time or two but I believe I have readily been forgiven by the community at large.
To all earnest caring players, I am arguing against forswearing these forums entirely. If you think our absence would be a loss, now would be a good time to voice those concerns.
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for my part I think that the forswearing of the forums by the Dev Team in general would be a sad day for planeshift, it's obvious that there are many reasons why the team would wish to insulate themselves from the personal nature of some of the comments that have been levelled at then from time to time. However removing their prescence from these forums other than to moderate without comment or indeed feedback would be, in my opinion, to create a division between the team and the players.
I hope it won't come to this, since one of the strengths of planeshift is that the players can actually communicate with the development team, and this makes it a much richer experience for both parties.
I realise the frustrations that some of the team may feel, when faced with criticism of decisions that have been made in regard to content, or the way that content has been presented, however this must be tempered with the justifiable pride they feel in their accomplishments thus far, with each new piece of content, or feature added the game becomes a subtly different one, and people in general fear change, which can give rise to initial opposition.
It's human nature to keep quiet when we are contented with a particular situation, and this can give rise to the feeling that those who are opposed are in the majority, since they shout the loudest, and the most often.
As players and contributors to the forums I feel that we have certain rights, in that we have the right to post constructive criticism, advice, help, suggestions for improvement, additional content, however as people we should realise that the Dev Team are people too, with feelings, and that those feelings can be hurt by some of the personal comments that have been made, I personally would have dealt with some posters far less leniently than has been the case. Like it or not, we are guests here.
I understand that players have in some cases a lot of personal time and emotion invested in this world we call a game, some have been here since the early days, and feel that this gives them a greater right to speak to others in any way they feel, i'm sorry to have to tell you this, but unless you are a member of the dev, admin or mod team, then your rights are the same as everyone else.
I for one was not surprised to see one mod leave these forums recently, and had I been in the same place would have banned at least two people, however i'm not as nice a person, and the forum is now actually diminished due to the lack of a decent caring member of the mod team.
What we have is a very free, open and gentle mod team, what we deserve is a harsh, strict and reactionary mod team, I know which I prefer.
In conclusion i'd like to say, that if everyone here was to show a little forebearance before posting, a little care in their choice of words, and a little humanity when dealing with others, then this would be a great place to post, until then, you'll probably find me in IRC, at least there the consequenses of tactlessness and rudeness are absent, as shall I be if the Devs decide this forum is better left to the players.
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for my part I think that the forswearing of the forums by the Dev Team in general would be a sad day for planeshift, it's obvious that there are many reasons why the team would wish to insulate themselves from the personal nature of some of the comments that have been levelled at then from time to time.
If an individual is in fact so sensitive that they can't handle the noobs, then perhaps some distance would be wise. However I don't think that's what's going on here. There are individuals - both past and present - that, to be blunt, get high off their power and enjoy being mean to people. They tend to leave after a while because of the effect they have on their peers, but it's been a trend that's been around for years.
I didn't miss the big picture, Draklar ... I just didn't see the need to give disrespectful people more attention than they deserve :P By the way I do agree with your point, sometimes the moderators of this forum are too gentle. Quite a few people here could use a good spanking to learn more respect for the hardworking men and women that make planeshift possible. Zanzi, looks like we're on the same level then.
Treating people with respect does not mean agreeing with them or being permissive of their behaviour. I'm not asking people to be nice to trolls. If anything, I'm saying individuals should stop contributing to the problem.
It comes down to this. Either we post and try to be part of the community or we forsake the forums completely. Personally I would rather keep posting. But if we are going to have these same conversations over and over again it might be better for the development team to just stop posting and just post updates. If you want to hold us to a higher standard then we have to remove ourselves from the community and become a faceless organization posting under the "PlaneShift-Team" name.
This is a false dillema. There are many different ways a person can contribute to the forum. Some ways are helpful, some ways are not. What it seems like you're saying is "Either we do what we've been doing, or we leave." I don't think that's constructive or true.
@Bilbous: I believe the only two people I labelled as being in official leadership positions are Vengeance and Xillix, but it is true that whenever a dev or GM is bad to a person it reflects poorly on the project.
@Kerol: Like acraig, you're presenting a choice that doesn't exist. There are a lot of options besides treating people poorly and becoming a faceless organization.
I am not a mod or an administrator and therefore have no obligation to be moderate or administrate, if i were one I would be severe indeed, and we would not have seen this thread (which was originally intended to offer us thanks for our work and request greater patience and understanding from posters on this forum) turn into one poster's personal agenda against specific devs.
You are the settings team leader. People judge the project by your behaviour. Those under you look to your behaviour as an example of how they themselves should behave.
Until I am paid for this work I shall reserve my right to call a troll a troll. Good luck to anyone who has intent to rat on me or any member of my team... To all earnest caring players, I am arguing against forswearing these forums entirely. If you think our absence would be a loss, now would be a good time to voice those concerns.
These sentences really work against you and the point you're trying to make. You've hidden insults within your post that support my view of things more than they support the view you're trying to push.
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@Zan: Hmm, okay. I would say it's way too hard to participate in the community while ignoring trolls, but apparently we share opinion on how the trolls should be dealt with... Which I guess puts me in agreement with the general statement.
These sentences really work against you and the point you're trying to make.
No, see... In your opinion these sentences really work against Xillix.
Otherwise you're implying Xillix loses in the eyes of community, whereas I believe in majority the community is there for Xil.
Oy, speaking of being helpful, zanzi. You mentioned people creating false dilema, but each time you said that, you also forgot to explain what the other options are. But knowing you to be a spotless member of this community, I'm sure you'll fix that right away.
Those under you look to your behaviour as an example of how they themselves should behave.
Hahahaha xD
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These sentences really work against you and the point you're trying to make.
No, see... In your opinion these sentences really work against Xillix.
Otherwise you're implying Xillix loses in the eyes of community, whereas I believe in majority the community is there for Xil.
Oh definately! I'm behind Xillix as well. Liking someone and thinking they have good things to offer doesn't mean you'll never be critical of them.
Oy, speaking of being helpful, zanzi. You mentioned people creating false dilema, but each time you said that, you also forgot to explain what the other options are. But knowing you to be a spotless member of this community, I'm sure you'll fix that right away.
Haven't I made a third option pretty clear? It's to stay, but to correct the bad behaviour.
Those under you look to your behaviour as an example of how they themselves should behave.
Hahahaha xD
Do you disagree?
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Oh definately! I'm behind Xillix as well. Liking someone and thinking they have good things to offer doesn't mean you'll never be critical of them.
Yay for out of context responses \o/
Haven't I made a third option pretty clear? It's to stay, but to correct the bad behaviour.
Oh, of course! Well duh, how could we be so stupid! Obviously mods and devs go offensive on the players out of their own, totally unaffected choice. It's not like they lose control or anything. They're in a full control all the way, no frustration and emotions taking over their attitude; no loss of the cool reasoning. Man, seriously. How could we be so stupid. Thanks, zanzi, you're the bestest o/
Do you disagree?
No, no. *snort* You're totally right.
... xD
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<3 Draklar :D
I don't think people's self control is as low as you suggest.
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Haven't I made a third option pretty clear? It's to stay, but to correct the bad behaviour.
Actually, if I were responsible for these forums, I had taken action against the first three people who went off topic within this thread.
I was not talking about leaving the forums unattended - in the contrary. I was talking about cutting down the senseless arguments and mudthrowing towards the staff, all the people who seek help here and regular users who don't need to go on an ego trip.
I was talking about involvement of the devs or GMs or mods with player topics and not getting involved if not called. And if involved, having the team answer as one after internal discussion.
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Allowing trolls to continue to troll reflects far worse on the dev team and moderators than calling a troll a troll.
Draklar knows well I fight passionately with my team on many issues but I weight their words carefully because they also give their time not just empty snarky comments. It is very easy to say what is wrong. Solving it is what my team members and other devs and gms work to do every day.
I invite everyone to look at the post history of Xillix and judge for yourselves whether I am fairly judicious.
On the issue of venge, well I will let him speak for himself ;)
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Haven't I made a third option pretty clear? It's to stay, but to correct the bad behaviour.
Actually, if I were responsible for these forums, I had taken action against the first three people who went off topic within this thread.
I was not talking about leaving the forums unattended - in the contrary. I was talking about cutting down the senseless arguments and mudthrowing towards the staff, all the people who seek help here and regular users who don't need to go on an ego trip.
I was talking about involvement of the devs or GMs or mods with player topics and not getting involved if not called. And if involved, having the team answer as one after internal discussion.
Going off topic when a conversation evolves is such a petty annoyance that I'm surprised most people even notice such things, including me. There are exceptions, but it's not close to a bannable offense in and of itself. A more appprorpiate response is to split the thread.
When I've said "play nice", people have accused me of being a troll, so the tone of your post confuses me. I'm not sure you're thinking of the problem others are thinking of. Even then, I don't see much mudslinging on the forums from the players towards the devs except for two repeating themes:
1. Dissatisfaction with the speed of progress. This complaint is bogus and noobish and shouldn't have an effect on anyone or a response beyond a form response and a lock.
2. Dissatisfaction with trollish behaviour from the devs. This complaint has weight to it, but people don't usually communicate it in an effective way. I think we can talk about the problem without dividing the community.
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1. Dissatisfaction with the speed of progress. This complaint is bogus and noobish and shouldn't have an effect on anyone or a response beyond a form response and a lock.
Don't you think that would be a rather COMMUNISTic thing to do?
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1. Dissatisfaction with the speed of progress. This complaint is bogus and noobish and shouldn't have an effect on anyone or a response beyond a form response and a lock.
Don't you think that would be a rather COMMUNISTic thing to do?
Of course not. You should always read the stickies in a forum before posting to it. If a new player comes along and make a redundant thread, then I see nothing wrong in giving him a form response or directing him to another thread.
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Heh, you failed.
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Heh, you failed.
If you say so. ???
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:offtopic: and trollish remark:
/me sits back and munches on pop corn as the debate unfolds.
:flowers:
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*pokes whiskers in and looks around*
wtf happened to this topic ?!?!? I originally had the "off topic" sign at the beginning of this post, but then realized that what I'm about to say is very much ON topic.
This was supposed to be a "spanking" for those board members who do nothing but whine, b*tch, and troll. I said it at the beginning of this thread and I'll say it again ....
No, I'm not "Little Mary Sunshine" trying to blow flowers up people's backside about this game. (anyone that knows me in real life can tell you I'm about as opposite of that as possible). Yes, I have my own share of frustrations about the game and occasionally the way the board is run. BUT this is a game in development with a very diverse dev team. And hey, guess what ... they're human. They aren't going to get along with everyone, and not everyone is going to get along with them. Tough sh*t. That's the way real life works. Are there issues in all aspects of both board and game? Yes. Does anyone have a "magic bullet" to fix them all? No. And quite frankly, anyone who thinks there is, is a bit delusional IMNSHO.
Again (as has been stated in several ways in this thread) ... we are guests in their house. This game is their baby. They have invited us in to help share in the creation ... but we do so by their grace. They have the right to kick our arses out at any time, for any reason. And they certainly don't have to take even one iota of our suggestions (or our sh*t). They do so because they want to. But their dream for this game is their own, not ours. Seems to me that patience goes both ways. If we want patience and respect from them, we have to be willing to give it in return.
now then ... this part is off topic ... wtf happened to Karyuu?????? I've been off the boards for a bit, and even with trying to look thru the "new threads since last visit", I seemed to have missed that.
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Seems good place to end it.
(http://hydlaa.com/images/sorta.jpg)