PlaneShift
Fan Area => Fan Art => Topic started by: Ver on September 05, 2007, 10:29:09 pm
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The Character Project
It gets a little depressing looking at all the races and genders in the PS character selection screen that don't have a model yet. It's perhaps the biggest reminder that PS is far from a finished game. Here I propose a new project where individual members including myself add lots of skins and models to flesh out the character appearances. Hopefully they will be of high quality and included in the next possible version of Planeshift.
Present all skins in .PNG picture format, along with some preview shots. The PS team can simply convert them into .DDS texture format later.
Provide a download link for all modeling work, and please provide some preview screenshots as well.
Let http://www.planeshift.it/races.html be a guide.
Current Project Goals: (Completed goals are crossed out)
Ylian Males:
-Skin three new face textures: a "tribal" face, an "Asian" face, and a "malevolent" face
-Skin two new textures for each face and for the hands texture, one for a "dark" skin color and the other for "light", the current one being called "tan". This one is very easy because all you need to do is a RGB simple color swap (keep the eye color the same, though)
-Model two new hair styles: long and short
-Model two new beard styles: goatee and none (that one ought to be easy modeling, eh? ;) )
Ylian Females: For now
-Create an ylian female model with a corresponding medium hair model and skin it with 1 choice of faces. Don't feel like you have to start from scratch -- use the dermorian or ynnwn female model, make necessary changes, and you are done.
Xacha Males: For now
-Create a xacha male model with a corresponding medium hair model and skin it with 1 choice of faces. Don't feel like you have to start from scratch -- use the dermorian male model, make a few changes, and you are done.
Xacha Females: For now
-Create a xacha female model with a corresponding medium hair model and skin it with 1 choice of faces. Don't feel like you have to start from scratch -- use the dermorian female model, make a few changes, and you are done.
Dermorian Males:
-Skin two new face textures -- any design you want. Extra points if they differ noticeably from the existing faces
-Skin two new textures for each face and for the hands, leg arm, and foot textures, one for a "amber" skin color and the other for "cream", the current one being called "copper". This one is very easy because all you need to do is a RGB simple color swap (keep the clothes color the same, though)
-Model two new hair styles: long and short (make sure it still has a couple of bangs)
Dermorian Females:
-Skin two new face textures -- any design you want. Extra points if they differ noticeably from the existing faces
-Skin two new textures for each face and for the hands, arm, foot, and leg textures, one for a "amber" skin color and the other for "cream", the current one being called "copper". This one is very easy because all you need to do is a RGB simple color swap (keep the clothes color the same, though)
Stonebreaker Males:
-Slightly modify the face tattoo skin to make the tattoos more visible
-Skin two new textures for each face and for the hands and cfoot textures, one for a "pale" skin color and the other for "dark", the current one being called "normal". This one is very easy because all you need to do is a RGB simple color swap (keep the clothes color the same, though)
-Model two new hair styles: ponytail and short
Stonebreaker Females:
-Skin three new face textures: elderly, face tattoo, and one of any style you can think of
-Skin two new textures for each face and for the arms texture, one for a "pale" skin color and the other for "dark", the current one being called "normal". This one is very easy because all you need to do is a RGB simple color swap (keep the clothes color the same, though)
-Model two new hair styles: short (just remove the pigtails) and long (make the pigtails thicker and slightly longer)
Hammerwielder Males: For now
-Create a hammerwielder male model with a corresponding medium hair model and skin it with 1 choice of faces. Don't feel like you have to start from scratch -- use the stonebreaker model, make a few changes, and you are done.
Hammerwielder Females: For now
-Create a hammerwielder female model with a corresponding medium hair model and skin it with 1 choice of faces. Don't feel like you have to start from scratch -- use the stonebreaker model, make a few changes, and you are done.
Lemur Males: For now
-Create a lemur male model with a corresponding medium hair model and skin it with 1 choice of faces. Don't feel like you have to start from scratch -- use the dermorian model, make a few changes, and you are done.
Lemur Females: For now
-Create a lemur female model with a corresponding medium hair model and skin it with 1 choice of faces. Don't feel like you have to start from scratch -- use the dermorian model, make a few changes, and you are done.
Diaboli Males: For now
-Create a diaboli male model with a corresponding medium hair model and skin it with 1 choice of faces. Don't feel like you have to start from scratch -- use the ynnwn model, make a few changes, and you are done.
Diaboli Females: For now
-Create a diaboli female model with a corresponding medium hair model and skin it with 1 choice of faces. Don't feel like you have to start from scratch -- use the ynnwn model, make a few changes, and you are done.
Klyros:
-Skin three new face textures, each with a different style of tattoo
-Skin two new textures for each face and for each texture, one for a "gray-green" skin color and the other for "dark azure", the current one being called "aqua". This one is very easy because all you need to do is a RGB simple color swap (keep the clothes color the same, though)
-Differentiate the male and female klyros by altering the torso, leg, and foot texture somewhat so that females have a different style of clothing
-Differentiate the male and female klyros by making the male klyros have slightly larger wings. This should be very easy to do -- simply go into 3DSMax/Maya/Blender and increase the wing size slightly
Other:
-TBA
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You should discuss this with the art team before posting such a proposal, because we may already be doing this, or have different ideas about how to handle this, different specifications, etc. Let me go through point by point and help you out to make sure people don't waste their time.
1) Textures will only be accepted in .PNG format. JPG and GIF is not acceptable due to the heavy quality loss, even if saved with high settings. .PSDs are preferred.
2) Skin tones will be changed via the engine later, just as we can do for hair. This still needs some work, but we're not going to create different skin tones via textures.
3) You cannot model good hairstyles without having the original character model to work from. You will have to make sure that there are no gaps, that the hairstyle fits perfectly, that the scale is correct, etc. So this is not possible by the community.
4) Please don't model characters that are not available yet. You have no idea whether we already have some made and they are waiting further work, whether or not a developer or a prospect has begun those models, whether they've recently been assigned, etc.
5) The male Dermorian model has been changed some, primarily the head. You don't know whether other models will receive or have already received similar attention, therefore changing many textures and UV maps.
Unfortunately this eliminates everything you have listed... I do appreciate your desire to help us out, but this is not the correct way to go about it. When we need something from the community, we will let you know. Character models are a bad choice.
Don't forget that current models are NOT given out to anyone in their original Max or Maya or Blender format, so no one outside of the team can simply modify them to create something different. The models are internal assets.
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You should open the modeling to the community. You'd get it done much faster that way.
This game has been severely criticized for being the least "open" open source game project out there. Loosen up with the art licensing or the game will never get done.
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Lol :) I'm not interested in hearing more criticism about our license that I haven't heard in three years. I'm also not interested in empty scares of "This game will never finish" or "PlaneShift's development will grow stagnant" or all the other similar mumbo-jumbo, which is all it really is.
Our art team is doing an incredible job lately, and we are progressing very fast. If your modeling skills are good enough, please apply and help us out there. While PlaneShift's code is open source, our art and settings assets are under another, separate license. They are internal tools and will not be released to anyone outside of the team for the project's protection. This is not up for debate.
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The correct answer would have been: I'm sorry, I should have asked you before posting this, Karyuu.
:P
Apart from that, I'm pretty sure you can make models if you want to, just don't expect them to be added into PlaneShift.
And the code is open source. Art and settings are not.
Oh, and no, PlaneShift will never "get done" it will continously expand and improve.
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The game has already been in CB for over 2 years now. And there's theoretically 7 more releases to go. The team can make a new guild hall map and key/door system but they can't make shields that work?
Waylander: The game will indeed get "done" -- at 1.0 release (if/when it happens). Updates past that point are content expansions and minor tweaks, a la Everquest, WoW, et al. With a development deliberation and art board, I was all but certain that such modeling/skinning projects would not be looked down upon. I once assumed that open source meant what it meant, not a little bit of base code that no one can make heads or tails of.
It's just like they said. The people on the forum treat you like a moron if you have any reservations about their project.
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I'm not interested in arguments, sorry. You knew about our license, which is actually very simple, you knew about the way our art assets are handled, you also know that the developers who "make shields work" with the engine are not the same developers who build the 3D models, and I really don't care what "they" say at this point.
Look, thank you for trying to help out. I really do like that people are so interested and excited about this project that they're eager to contribute. But your proposal is not the right way to go about it, again. Now you can either accept this answer and try to organize another art project, or you can waste your time trying to change our mind. It's all up to you at this point.
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If you want to contribute models check out this thread. :lol: http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=28502.0 (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=28502.0)
This is the "What the Team needs from You" thread. Make these things and they will be considered. That is what the tread is for. \\o//
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Yes I realize that the team has final say on what goes. But the bureaucracy of the matter is less than stellar. Allowing the in-game meshes to be accessed on request and allowing the public to contribute a large volume of the art in no way violates the setting because the setting is only that which has already been revealed by the game, and art contributed can't violate the setting because if it is in violation it doesn't get implemented.
See http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=28479.msg327652#msg327652 for Induane's good wisdom on this subject.
Btw, if every release is two years then 1.0 won't theoretically be here until 2019! :o
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The development is speeding up substantially, Ver. Though, I wouldn't place 1.0 before that.
allowing the public to contribute a large volume of the art in no way violates the setting because the setting is only that which has already been revealed by the game
The setting is anything that happens in history, anything that is planned to happen, anything that can happen along with a ton of other things (Where, when and such). So it has not already been revealed.
And allowed the players to contribute large volumes would end up in Karyuu having to reject a ton of things and then Xil and Talad if it doesn't mesh with the planned settings.
I imagine there is a better way to organize things but, why fix something that isn't broken?
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I didn't say anything about art contributions violating settings here. Models in their original 3D format are kept internally for the protection of the project. If you think the number of people who would be sneaky and yes, steal the art, is low, then you haven't seen much of the internet. Besides, I will not accept a character model that has simply been modified from a previous, instead of created from scratch. I will not reuse my Dermorian female when I create another model, I will begin that model anew because I'll be aiming for a completely different characterization, as everyone should.
I am not going to argue this point yet another time - models are internal assets. This is how the project works. If you disagree with our method, feel free not to contribute. We're not going to stop working because of it.
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The setting is anything that happens in history, anything that is planned to happen, anything that can happen along with a ton of other things (Where, when and such). So it has not already been revealed.
My comment was on the fact that the only part of the setting that artists can expound upon is what has already been revealed. Artists do not create the direction of the setting (that's the writers, who in every way should remain behind closed doors), they can only render what they know of visually.
Btw, Karyuu, I am well aware of the fact that you used "surprise" as a defense of your position. First of all, how much of the community do you believe this forum represents? 50%; less? I'd much rather see preliminary forms of some of the future art (which would still exclude whatever the official art developers make) than have to wait much longer for the small number of official developers to do the same. There are just too many people playing this game that have good skills but not the time to contribute as a developer. A little bit of "surprise" is a small thing to sacrifice for a game that can release sooner rather than much, much later.
The devs rejecting what doesn't fit is a completely fair part of the process. The reason for the project to allow an open influx of contributions is not complacency, it is to make the devs' job easier, by getting a bunch of submissions, the majority of which do not measure up, and picking the best.
There's too many successful game projects with accessible models to mention here. You can press legal action against those that steal your licensed intellectual properties, btw.
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Ver, you've got your answer a couple times now. :)
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Thanks Sherlock. :detective:
Yes, I'm trying to start another discussion about why the contribution policy is how it is, which slows the project down abysmally (yes, Karyuu, I know the art team is good, but they're finite; you are sitting on a sea of untapped potential, if your recent item modeling/icons project is any indication). Since there isn't any necessity in mingling the story with art and music submissions, and since like any game company Atomic Blue can bring suit on those that steal their content, I don't see the rationale for it.
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The devs rejecting what doesn't fit is a completely fair part of the process.
how long have you been on these forums? just asking because if there are tons of rejected models there might be two or three times the whiners complaining why their model wasn't accepted. the reason for how it is liscenced is because if it were completely open source, it would be legal to take their art, or they would end up with a very complicated liscence.
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And so the whiners can complain to high heaven. For each object in the game only one model and only one corresponding texture can be used -- they use the best. The few open doors to forum contributions I've seen had no one whining about their work not getting picked. The people that use this forum understand the integrity of the project's goals; contribution implies understanding that.
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[...] you are sitting on a sea of untapped potential, if your recent item modeling/icons project is any indication [...]
I disagree, actually. There are talented artists in the community, but I can count the ones who are consistently good so far on one hand. This sea of untapped potential isn't as wide nor powerful as you may believe it to be, although I mean no insult to anyone. We do look for a certain quality, and for the most part it is difficult to find in contributions, especially in anything above items/icons. The contests and contribution opportunities I offer here are to let players try their hand at small assets and learn in the process.
No one has so far created anything complex that I have accepted into the official client. Each and every time someone offers me a character model, I give them a full back-and-forth analysis of where they need to improve, and each and every time the final decision is "You will need more practice."
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That sounds ridiculous, Karyuu. Every single contribution to the recent Item Mesh/Texture Submission thread was characteristic of a high-quality model (most with less than 150 faces) with a high-quality finished texture. Most of those submissions were at least as good as what's already in-game, and some were better.
And this is even besides the fact that there is no requirement to have all the submissions at 100% -- your art team would have a vast array of less than AAA submissions to use as "templates" where they could go back and nip and tuck where it would immediately raise it to acceptable level.
The predicable result of this model would be a much faster rate of development coupled with slightly lower final graphics quality overall. But anything beats a 2019 release date. :thumbdown:
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No, not every single contribution in that thread was of the right quality :) I can tell you that honestly and immediately. Also note the amount of people who have participated in that thread so far - like I said, I can count the consistently talented artists on one hand.
Why do you ignore my point about character models that people have tried to contribute to me? So far, none of them have come close to the standard we need, and I am not going to lower that standard, nor am I going to use "placeholder art." From now on as I work with the art department, everything created is meant to be as final an asset as possible. Anything else is wasted time.
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even if i was professional about one time they were accepting models, i probably wouldn't be quite so calm if i were rejected 50 times in favor of rast (which by the way i already acknowledge rast is better than me). i might say they were picking favorites, and i'm pretty sure others would, considering some people now, which would lead to more locked threads, then threads that say "you never let us say anything, i thought you wanted our input" and those would go sour, get locked, and this forum would be dead eventually. sure this probably won't happen, but i think its just better the way it is now.
this needs Waylander's diclaimer: Some players(/people) are great
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Character models are understandably the most difficult of all to create. There's a huge gap between them and those recent items/icons (all of which looked to be of finished quality by my estimation), like buildings, trees, and terrain. Let the gap be filled and judge accordingly.
I never suggested "placeholder art", which is always bad for a project.
Dihenis: I've seen game projects with open art contribution, and they never devolved into the mess you described.
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If we have something that we think the community can do for us, we will offer it. However, right now the art team is working on content that neither can be revealed to the community, nor added onto by the community. And this content is our first and most important priority. I have the bare minimum of time lately to dedicate to internal issues, and much less for outside contributions. Our time is always limited, and if I must spend a good chunk of it going over outside contributions that don't meet our quality standards, I'm wasting that time. I'd much rather use what I have to finish what I know we need first.
Regardless, people are always welcome to discuss contributions with me and suggest a model they would like to create. If we can put it to use and if I know the artist is capable, I will say so and help him/her out with modeling, texturing, etc. I have done this on numerous occasions. (Terrain and level design however is out of the question - too much depends on it to be handled outside the team, like connection to previous maps, assets, settings material, etc.)
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yes i was exaggerating. i was trying to stress the point that i think opening up the art part would bring about more negatives than positives. and then they would end up with an even more complicated liscence if they did let us add to it, because they don't want people to take their art.
(sorry i don't know how to spell liscence)
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I can't know the situation as it is currently within the PS development team...no one that isn't on the team knows either. If your current structure works well for you, keep it. If the next CB release version is after this time next month, something has to give. If Steel Blue isn't here by this time next year something has to give. Or you may have to discard the entire "Blue" version naming structure (which calls for a full seven more milestone versions after this one) if 1.0 will release within at any time in the near future. Anything slower than a new release every one or two months pushes the project back into the void.
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Why are you so hung up on developing fasterfasterfaster? This is something we do because we have fun doing it, during our free time. If it takes us 10 years to reach 1.0, I really don't care. I'm in this project not to whip out content as fast as possible, but to enjoy the process and yes, take my time if needed. We have new client releases every two months or so, and this is a pace we find comfortable. There is no going "back into the void," whatever the heck that means. Just because our pace is slower than that of commercial projects doesn't mean that we're dying or stagnating or that we'll never accomplish anything or never get finished. Frankly I find this attitude boring and tiring.
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I'm not hung on up having it out "fasterfasterfaster". Do you have a picture in your mind of what PS could like like at 1.0? Statistically, though, its axiomatic that the longer unbudgeted software projects go without their gamma release, the more the entire project drifts apart and eventually dissipates. The project must have a defined goals for its final form. Then each individual update should be one more small progression towards that goal.
The project mgith collapse under its own weight if it has to go on for five more years. Ten is unthinkable (you'd have t change the engine more than once).
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We have a goal for every single release we put out. We have a goal for 0.4 as well, and we have a Master Plan. Why would you assume that we don't, and are just drifting aimlessly through a sea of assets?
PlaneShift has been in 3D form since early 2001 - that's six years already, and we show absolutely no signs of stopping. Instead this project is stronger than it has ever been, and picking up speed all the time.
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It's at a respectable pace, yes. But Molecular Blue didn't take as long as Crystal Blue and that was extremely more basic than Crystal Blue.
When is 0.4 (Steel Blue) coming out?
With Crystal Blue we finally see the game beginning to stand on its own two feet and some features are even looking nearly finished at this point. So future releases should not take nearly as long...perhaps a year each. I think the 0.7 thru 1.0 (the beta period IIRC) should probably only have to take a year total.
No, I don't want things being rushed. Yes, I'm concerned about the conceptual ridiculousness of going through as many years until 1.0 release as we've had up to now since the beginning of Atomic Blue in 2001. Planeshift could practically attain a Guinness record for longest development cycle of a single game project prior to release if that were the case.
By the way, the game runs incredibly slow proportional to its graphical quality...I get less than 10 fps in the Death Realm and Hydlaa. It's also a horrific RAM hog. And yes, I meet or surpass all system requirements. How is the engine going to improve?
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This is no longer an art issue and I'm growing disinterested. For engine related topics, contact Vengeance or Acraig.
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So you're aware of the engine speed? It's actually been keeping me from playing recently.
Answer the questions if you know the answer, here and for the prior post.
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Look, I'm tired of posting here and I don't feel like carrying this on with you :) Vengeance and Acraig are much more familiar with the engine, as they are engine leaders. They can give you far more reliable answers and with the technical know-how to back it up. I lead the art dep and after some time I have no interest in arguing with people over things I don't control directly. Hopefully you're here not just to argue, but to learn something - in which case if I mention to you another more knowledgeable person to go to, you'll pick up on the hint.
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They're not nearly as active on these forums as you, or so it seems. IMHO, if the engine can be sped up markedly, some of the most flagrant bugs of the current release are removed, and the rest of the character models are added, you can start calling it 4.0.
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Wow, look at all the squawking from the fanboys/fangirls here; it's like opening a door to a poultry house.
Someone is actually willing to work for the project for free, as if it was open-source, and to involve the community. After all, the Atomic Blue site calls PlaneShift an "open-source game", which is obviously a blatant lie. If only a small part of the project is open-source, it does not make the whole game open-source. In fact, it's mostly proprietary. Had this game been commercial, they could easily be sued for false advertising.
It's amazing to see one of the developers on the forum actually encourage people not to contribute to the project and call it a "waste of time" (maybe playing this game is a waste of time too then). They'd rather work on the project at a snail's pace than have the community finish it faster and maybe even with a better quality. Is that what they are afraid of? That someone in the community will actually come up with a character model and its texture, which is of higher quality and is done much faster than by the team? If so, it's an obvious ego problem. How dare someone come up with a compete and better model than the main developers! Blasphemy!
How does the saying go - "not for yourself, not for the people"? It seems the developers would rather squawk at anyone who suggests structural development improvements, it seems they'd rather keep making excuses how it's just a "hobby" because when the game development standards are this low, it's easy to call it "incredible job", even though it took only seven years, and technically fifteen because you already had the settings written then, including the races. Not to mention that this game is already using the existing Crystal Space 3D engine, written by someone else. Sure, they may have made some "tweaks" to it but the foundation was written by someone else. In fact, had the Crystal Space 3D license not required for its source code to be kept free, I wouldn't be surprised if Atomic Blue / PlaneShift team made that proprietary too. It is appalling that this project has taken so long with such laughable result. The whole thing is basically a vaporware.
I'd personally be willing to contribute to the project, having created several character models for popular game mods in some of the best selling games out there, if not for the proprietary license. However, there is absolutely no way I'd be contributing to a proprietary junk like this. Most people with fewer posts get attacked by PS fanboys/fangirls on this forum when something like this is posted but when someone more regular like Induane posts that he also has a problem with the proprietary license, the developerss and the fanboys/fangirls quickly tuck their tails in. Evidently, not all developers are comfortable with the internal development structure of PlaneShift. Several have already left because of it. Read the post on this forum titled "The real PlaneShift development history and its "business model"", for example. I don't mean to drag Induane into this again but in yet another post on this forum he mentioned that he personally knows several developers/contributors who have had a problem with PS license and its team (and eventually left), that their ideas were not listened to or rejected.
Hey, Karyuu, I got news for you - if this game is "open-source" as Atomic Blue site claims, then *EVERYONE* has at least some say in its development, not just a few individuals in a closed team. If that is not the case, then this game is *NOT* open-source. Karyuu, weren't you one of the people who claimed several times that this game is not meant to compete with commercial projects because you are not a commercial team? The posts are in your posting history, even if the threads, which contained them have been deleted. The only problem with such claims is that Luca Pancallo states in his video presentation at Crystal Space that this game in fact tries to compete with commercial MMORPGs and is designed to commercial standards. Do you know what "compete with commercial games" and "commercial standards" means? If you are saying that is not the case, then the only conclusion is that Luca has been lying to the public. I don't even blame Karyuu. I think she's just a follower, who doesn't know any better. I blame the bureaucratic "board of directors" in Atomic Blue, which mostly cowers away from giving a straight answer: Luca "Talad" Pancallo, Keith "Vengeance" Fulton and Andrew "acraig" Craig.
The only "surprise" factor this game has is how unprofessionally it is managed and developed, and how bureaucratic its team is. Perhaps everyone should be reminded of the definition of the word BUREAUCRACY:
An administrative system in which the need or inclination to follow rigid or complex procedures impedes effective action
Ver, you will not get an unbiased reply on this forum. In fact, even the developers' and mods' attitude is often downright ugly and unprofessional, especially in this thread. Try more neutral sites like MMORPG.com, where they have their own PlaneShift forum. They don't have a vested interest in the game, so whenever I saw the same brown-nosing replies posted there, those fanboys/fangirls were quickly put in their place by the local community and admins/mods. In fact, I've never seen Luca Pancallo participate and PR-spam so much on a single forum in such a short period of time, as he did on that site. Suddenly, he wasn't "busy" and had all the time in the world to argue, yet he can't even answer simple monthly Q&A on this one.
If the "board of directors" and developers don't care about this game, why should the community? I certainly don't, not anymore anyway. They can play it among themselves till they drop, since it's "their" game, and then they'll never hear/see any criticism of it. But wait! Most of them don't even play the game anymore. Ask Karyuu, if she plays it or what she was playing instead of PlaneShift not too long ago (hint: Ryzom).
Not Soon Enough (tm)
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I don't feel like dealing with you :)