PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Feline Prince on September 16, 2007, 09:26:29 pm
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If we got rid of the numbers do you think it would get rid of powerlevelers? With the exact same system in place (Even though it needs replacing) do you think if the numbers weren't there to be plainly seen it would discourage people levelling for the sake of levelling. Why would we want to get rid of these people? Well they aren't productive to the community and they are typically the type who use leet speak.
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I do not intendt to stomp your topix down immedeatly, but perhaps it is wise to wait a bit. this "problem" hasn't been arround for long and has never been before. If you want a bit, I'm sure the problem will be solved by itself, or with the help of a dev-team and Gm-team.
please do not view those teams as complete retards, they are aware and working.
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If we got rid of the numbers do you think it would get rid of powerlevelers? With the exact same system in place (Even though it needs replacing) do you think if the numbers weren't there to be plainly seen it would discourage people levelling for the sake of levelling.
I think the only way to limit levelling for the sake of levelling is to limit how much levelling a character can do. One way to do this is to limit how many skills you can be good at, and I think Xordan has said it's on the to-do list.
I'm in favour of a number-free system. Remember how weapons used to be? You knew what they were called, but that was it. Players didn't have access to the stats and it was great. People experimented. They compared notes. Heck, they even used certain weapons simply because it's what their characters would use! It gave the game colour and uniqueness, and now it's gone.
I'm in favour of a number-free progression system as well, but I don't think that stats should be hidden entirely, nor do I think it's the best way to improve the player base. Instead of a rating of 1-200, it should be based on more subjective qualifiers such as "horrible, poor, average, fair, good, very good, elite". Or something similar. This can only happen once skills can be levelled without constant visits to a trainer, but there's such an incredible push for that that I can't imagine it not happening eventually. (For those who don't know, the idea is that you can get better at something simply by doing it often, and trainers will merely speed up the learning process.)
Why would we want to get rid of these people? Well they aren't productive to the community and they are typically the type who use leet speak.
They've learned not to use leet speak, but what's worse is the emphasis some put on duelling as an answer to everything. They have a habit of inventing IC grudges to act on OOC grudges. They /shout cusses at people who refuse to duel, and they don't bring anything to the game in terms of roleplay. It's less often that I see them list their stats in their character descriptions, but that only means they've become more self concious over time.
The thing is, all of this wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the fact that they're scaring so many people away from the game.
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My input: just deal with them. If they bother you, ignore 'em. Your idea would irritate the good roleplayers, too.
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My input: just deal with them. If they bother you, ignore 'em.
That's an impractical solution for the reasons people have given time and time again.
Your idea would irritate the good roleplayers, too.
What makes you say that?
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In my opinion, too much time is spent worrying about what others are doing and not enough time spent RPing. So much time has been wasted complaining about power-levelers, and not much good will ever come from it.
Just look at leet speak as a character would look at an ignorant barbarian butchering the common language, and you can simply implement it into your RP. :P
Bottom line is...
You'll never be able to moderate what aspects players enjoy about PS, and you can't tell them HOW to play.
Let everyone just enjoy the game however they wish, and if they annoy you, simply ignore them.
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Leet speak isn't the problem.
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I might not have quite gotten the meaning at first... I do think that having level titles instead of numbers gives a better feel to the game and would encourage IC discussion a little more than the level values do now.
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Well I know plenty of you sit with your little groups who you RP with but when I mingle around try to start conversations with the people who seem to be doing the same, many of them talk in a constant OOC manner much like you would expect to see in runescape. I would be nice to see people say 'I am only a novice miner' rather than 'I have 3 in mining'. Also taking away the numbers would take the emphasis off the skills and place more on roleplaying which would surely do nothing but improve things? At the moment things are swayed far too much towards skills, which means half the people are not using them at all and the other half are using them only and not engaging with the game on any other level. I think it would be a happy medium where people would roleplay the skills they gain as they gain them and would have no choice because they would have to describe it IC as they have no numbers to recite when talking about skills.
I do not intendt to stomp your topix down immedeatly, but perhaps it is wise to wait a bit. this "problem" hasn't been arround for long and has never been before. If you want a bit, I'm sure the problem will be solved by itself, or with the help of a dev-team and Gm-team.
please do not view those teams as complete retards, they are aware and working.
I see something that could be better and I'm giving ideas on how it could be improved.
@Zanzibar: I agree that they shouldn't be hidden completely, just not numbers. Idealy the NPC who is training you should tell you what level you've reached, from 'mmm its a start I guess' to 'your getting the hang of it' all the way to 'quiet amazing, i can't teach you any more, you might want to talk to 'NPC,' he'll teach you how to become a master in the field.'
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I agree that they shouldn't be hidden completely, just not numbers. Idealy the NPC who is training you should tell you what level you've reached, from 'mmm its a start I guess' to 'your getting the hang of it' all the way to 'quiet amazing, i can't teach you any more, you might want to talk to 'NPC,' he'll teach you how to become a master in the field.'
I see this as a different manner and something that should be added anyway.
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Why do people here keep going on about "powerleveling"? How does it affect your experience in the game? People like to level up, if that is how they want to play their game who are you to say they can't do that? Is all levelling "power-levelling"? This is a GAME, people like to do things in games, such as levelling up.
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How does it affect your experience in the game?
People have answered this question many times. Read some of their answers and you might get an idea of... what the answer is... or something.
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So what should I do? Start opening random threads?
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Why do people here keep going on about "powerleveling"? How does it affect your experience in the game? People like to level up, if that is how they want to play their game who are you to say they can't do that? Is all levelling "power-levelling"? This is a GAME, people like to do things in games, such as levelling up.
It is not disturbing at all on it's own ... which is also one of the points Zanzi is trying to make, I think. There is nothing wrong with powerleveling as a concept, the problem lies with the translation to roleplaying. Powerlevelers want to be the best at everything, they play with the goal of getting that next skill level. Usually this means roleplay is neglected or completely ignored ... nothing the Devs can do about that really. It is disruptive for us RPers though. But what they can do is making the system of leveling more RP oriented. Getting rid of numbers is one way to do that.
It won't get rid of powerlevelers ... but it will force them to talk about their skills as "I'm still poor at mining." or "I'm a master swordsman."
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good point, define 'poor at mining' with current settings .... as long as there's a possibility to train, you need levels that you can train at an npc. either that or remove all levelling and go to godmodding skills instead of actually learn them by training/practicing skill.
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Why do people here keep going on about "powerleveling"? How does it affect your experience in the game? People like to level up, if that is how they want to play their game who are you to say they can't do that? Is all levelling "power-levelling"? This is a GAME, people like to do things in games, such as levelling up.
It is not disturbing at all on it's own ... which is also one of the points Zanzi is trying to make, I think. There is nothing wrong with powerleveling as a concept, the problem lies with the translation to roleplaying. Powerlevelers want to be the best at everything, they play with the goal of getting that next skill level. Usually this means roleplay is neglected or completely ignored ... nothing the Devs can do about that really. It is disruptive for us RPers though. But what they can do is making the system of leveling more RP oriented. Getting rid of numbers is one way to do that.
It won't get rid of powerlevelers ... but it will force them to talk about their skills as "I'm still poor at mining." or "I'm a master swordsman."
Ah Zan, my first half.
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Hmm it would seem the power levelers are common in real life. All you have to do is look at the muscle head who spends six hours a day weight training in the gym to try to be the next Mr. Universe or the musician that spend 10 hours in the studio practicing various instruments. The difference with the in-game power levelers is that in real life there is enough time for the muscle head to master an instrument or the musician solve Fermi's Last Theorem or whatever combination you like. Certainly such a renaissance man type is possible in real life and is exceptional but characters in the game are supposed to be exceptional to begin with.
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Hmm it would seem the power levelers are common in real life. All you have to do is look at the muscle head who spends six hours a day weight training in the gym to try to be the next Mr. Universe or the musician that spend 10 hours in the studio practicing various instruments. The difference with the in-game power levelers is that in real life there is enough time for the muscle head to master an instrument or the musician solve Fermi's Last Theorem or whatever combination you like. Certainly such a renaissance man type is possible in real life and is exceptional but characters in the game are supposed to be exceptional to begin with.
Are these characters acting within the settings? Are they RPing a character, or are they simply trying to be the best at everything? What does it mean to be an exceptional person? How can we allow people to be exceptional and yet still keep the game sane and the characters specialized? These are the questions you need to think about.
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Actually, my tu'penny piece [wow showing my age] is that I think hiding the stats behind words like 'trainee swordsman/woman' and 'Master Mage' etc is quite a good idea if it means that others will discuss their skills in that way-
Me ; I am only a trainee swordswoman, So I am seeking the 'red Sash' trainer, do you know where he is?
Him ; um no, but I know where the 'yellow shash' trainer is, he might be able to help...
and so on and so forth....
and your ability to judge anothers ability should be related to your preceptive ability... [if that makes any sense at all to you hehe]
It won't get rid of levellers per-say but is may integrate them more?
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Hmm it would seem the power levelers are common in real life. All you have to do is look at the muscle head who spends six hours a day weight training in the gym to try to be the next Mr. Universe or the musician that spend 10 hours in the studio practicing various instruments. The difference with the in-game power levelers is that in real life there is enough time for the muscle head to master an instrument or the musician solve Fermi's Last Theorem or whatever combination you like. Certainly such a renaissance man type is possible in real life and is exceptional but characters in the game are supposed to be exceptional to begin with.
People in gyms don't say 'I'm 47 at body development' they say 'I bench pressed 40Kg today'. Much the same way you would expect miners to say 'I hauled 32 good ores today' as aposed to saying 'I have 5 in mining'. With the focus being on the levels its going to bring in powerlevelers, not roleplayers. Though you may not think the saying the amount of ores is a good example... Yilakum is a capital society isn't it? There will always be money hoarding as it is realistic anyway.
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there are people who want to be the best at everything in real life, you know.
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there are people who want to be the best at everything in real life, you know.
I don't see how that's relevant.
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oops, didnt see the second page.
but what I meant was, even when role-playing, there are people who want to role-play someone who constantly wants to improve themselves, because those kinds of people exist in the world. We encourage it in real life, so why do we discourage it when role-playing? Theres nothing wrong with wanting to be the best, and working hard for it.
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"Powerlevellers" isnt used for people rping to increase their skills by levelling. Of course you can go and roleplay your fighter and improve him there.
But annoying, for me that is, are people who dont rp at all, but all the time only run around levelling. Thats still not what bothers me, but if those people then go and shout around stuff in ic-manner although its fully ooc.
Take info from the server-stats page for instance, or some saying in main in brackets that get used by them taken as ic at some other place.
I for one had a time I was so much upset by certain behaviour of certain people, pure powerlevellers, that I was very close to leave PS once and for all. The entire atmosphere was screwed. There was no sense in figuring any rp-plans, because I all the time had to keep in mind that also those "oocers" may involve themselves.
Finally I calmed down and just decided to ignore them completely. Its not easy, neither nice: Last time I declined partaking an rp when I heard one of those guys were involved.
Just closing my eyes from problems is not a satisfying solution at all, but good enough to instead focus on things still worth to stick with PS and enjoy it.
What to do against it? Well, I read much about it in these forums here, and its really not easy, I even wonder if its possible at all by technical factors. How about setting a maximum amount for stats- respectively skill-levels summed up? That way one could become a masterly 3-ways magician, with only being able to max magic-relevant stats plus a bit more for agility or so. Or become a great fighter maxing weapon-skills and stats required. On the other hand, make your char to be an average allrounder. I didnt think about that idea too much, maybe its even suggested already. Not even sure how much would it be "anti-powerlevellers".
Cheers,
Velh
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if the basic idea is that power-levelers are annoying role-players, and role players are annoying those who dont role-play as seriously, then why not just split them? create a copy of yliakum, and have one side for serious role-players, and the other one for those who arent that serious about it. That way, you can limiit the amount of "powerlevelers" without changing the game drastically. those who do not wish to role play will naturally like to hang out around others like them, and the other way around as well.
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there are many many many many....... many threads about splitting the realm and every thread ends in, no, it won't happen.
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if the basic idea is that power-levelers are annoying role-players, and role players are annoying those who dont role-play as seriously, then why not just split them? create a copy of yliakum, and have one side for serious role-players, and the other one for those who arent that serious about it. That way, you can limiit the amount of "powerlevelers" without changing the game drastically. those who do not wish to role play will naturally like to hang out around others like them, and the other way around as well.
While not all MMORPG's do pay attention to the RP part I think planeshift attempts to do so being a RP game. Making two different servers for rpers and for powerlevelers does not truely fix anything and goes against trying to make RP part of the game. Plus why make two different servers? No one is forced to rp and no one is forced to level. I think, after lots of these topics have been coming up, that the real problem is that there are players that disregard the feelings of others and kinda ruin the experience for others.
Levelers ignore that some people like rp, making the game a chat room, or even "go out of bounds" by taking role play too far. Examples of this are people who try to "bully" others into dueling, try to max every stat and act as if its realistic to be a master in doing so, or possibly something else. Mainly they either ignore rp as a total and do as they wish (pking, leet talk, etc) or they role play but try and make it hard for anyone who doesn't level as high as they do to rp with them. Sort of "you didn't take the time to max every stat like me so your not worth my time unless you want to duel and lose" if you get my drift.
At the same time rpers don't always take too kindly to levelers. Some make much fuss about OOC chatting though its possible one didn't know or forgot to use brakets. Some are a little too strict with rp as some players who do want to learn don't know as much and when they try to engage in rp they are ignored for its poor quality. Some levelers are great rpers and they don't "max" all their stats like other powerlevelers only the ones they plan to rp with. Then they meet a rper with no stats and lets say for example they get into a fight the rper, who only rp's his/her strengths, refuses to duel the leveler, who worked hard to get the few high stats he/she rps, making it hard for both players.
Yes this doesn't apply to everyone and yes there are exceptions to the rules and lastly there are probably more things I didn't mention. However if you think about it powerleveling isn't all thats to blame. If people want less leveling they have to help more newbies in understanding rp. Else you just think as you would for any other MMORPG and if thats what they think the game is is it their fault for not knowing? I'm sure you could argue both ways but instead we can try to teach as well. There will be players who refuse to be taught but there are rpers who refuse to level so there are people on both sides at wrong.
So to kinda draw that all to the topic of the anti-powerleveling idea I must say I do like some of the ideas thought up here. However i don't think we should be trying to think of ways to stop powerleveling. I more so think ideas on how to combine leveling elements with role playing is a better way to put it. The reason why is powerleveling isn't as "bad" as people make it for many have different reasons for doing it. What is bad is that role playing isn't as strong as leveling because the two aren't well mixed.
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Duraza raised some excellent points, but to summarize what he said: We need to find a way to balance RPing with game-mechanics (leveling). For one, eliminate the OOC verbiage from the progression system. Progression points and the concept of level as a number need to go. A system of abstract ranks would be useful in place of it, and has been suggested several times before. Tria-only training would place RP-ed jobs (Arnigus' banking job or Cila's newspaper business) on the same footing as what the game mechanics supports directly (fighting and crafting, mainly). Also, we need to deal with the current ineptitude of the combat system, as it does not support the addition of detail through RP means to any reasonable extent.
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If we got rid of the numbers
The idea of getting them out isnt new :)
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=76.msg146#msg146
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Convince Talad.
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I think you brought up some good points, durwyn. Rpers and "power levelers" need to find some way to connect. I still dont know what is bad about trying to make yourself as powerful as you can be though. In real life, the reason we arent perfect at everything is because we dont have enough time to perfect everything in the world. in games, being perfect, at least in theory, is possible, and that is what drives people to train to max. There are very few people who can actually max everything before they become bored, so I dont see why levels are bad either. it gives you a way of measuring how good you are. as for changing the numbers into poor, common, standard, and so on, it would still be the same thing. they would train to become elite.
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Except when we are talking about numbers the PLAYER is training to be the best in game. If someone says they are elite it's very easy to assume they are IC and the CHARACTER is trying to be the best in Yilakum. If anything it is a soft way of forcing people to talk ICly to an extent. Obviously it doesn't stop the people who miss the idea completely talking about their Xbox ingame but it would be a start.
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Perhaps try to define role-playing in-game somewhere, where everyone would see it, because some people just dont know what counts as role-playing. it is a different world, after all, and stuff like magic exists. In real life, there are levels to define where people are at, for example, being in Spanish 1, or having a 3.8 GPA, or something. I once accepted levels as just something everyone knew and was natural in the world. Only one person bothered to tell me it was not IC.
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Perhaps try to define role-playing in-game somewhere, where everyone would see it, because some people just dont know what counts as role-playing. it is a different world, after all, and stuff like magic exists. In real life, there are levels to define where people are at, for example, being in Spanish 1, or having a 3.8 GPA, or something. I once accepted levels as just something everyone knew and was natural in the world. Only one person bothered to tell me it was not IC.
While there are levels and things like that in real life no one walks around saying "I'm a level 10 police officer." That would be the equivalent of saying "I'm a level 10 miner." RP is suposed to be "realistic" (as in sounding real within the games own settings) so using the numbers really would not promote rp since you don't hear people in real life say those things.
If, possibly, you were in a swordsman school and the teachers ranked you by a level then you'd have a perfectly IC reason to say "I'm a level 10 swordsman" yet it wouldn't be the same as if you were just refering to the OOC stats. If you think about it, in real life one can not just pull up a tab and look at all their skills to see what "level" they are in certain things ;) .
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perhaps create a rating system then? if you want to delete the numbers, perhaps have a "test" your character can take to find out what level they would be classified as. from there, it is just memory, like in real life.
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Hmm it would seem the power levelers are common in real life. All you have to do is look at the muscle head who spends six hours a day weight training in the gym to try to be the next Mr. Universe or the musician that spend 10 hours in the studio practicing various instruments. The difference with the in-game power levelers is that in real life there is enough time for the muscle head to master an instrument or the musician solve Fermi's Last Theorem or whatever combination you like. Certainly such a renaissance man type is possible in real life and is exceptional but characters in the game are supposed to be exceptional to begin with.
there are people who want to be the best at everything in real life, you know.
This was exactly my point. I might not have made that very clear at the time though :) As long as the player isn't speaking OOC about levels [outside of brackets] then I don't see why certain people feel the need to denigrate these players.
perhaps create a rating system then? if you want to delete the numbers, perhaps have a "test" your character can take to find out what level they would be classified as. from there, it is just memory, like in real life.
I actually think this is a really interesting idea. It doesn't take much away from either "side" and it would add a unique element to the game. :D
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Some people are very conscious of their status. It would not be surprising to hear someone say "I have been a policeman for 15 years, the last seven as Captain of the swat team. As far as the martial arts go they definitely have levels, Judo has white, yellow, green, on up to black belt and beyond. Piano has conservatory levels and unions have seniority. The names may differ but they are there and bandied about within their respective communities. Everyone likes to be able to define themselves within the pecking order.
The levels in the game represent specific achievements and changing the terminology may sound better but will not change anything else. People may also revert to the old terminology to further pinpoint their place. You can always count or estimate the number of times you level up from the last descriptive change, so: I have leveled five times since I became apprentice so that would make me about 15th level. I am not suggesting that it should not be attempted just that ultimately some people will never completely adopt it. In a way you will be making it more apparent as people will want to know how long until they achieve the next descriptive level.
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The answer to that is simple, bilbous. Replace the ladder-type leveling system with a ramp system.
In the ladder, your skill goes up every time you hit a 'level', thus making it easy to count even with hidden numbers.
A ramp system eliminates levels all together, simply adding more skill as you play. If the numbers are hidden in this system, the only way you know how skilled you are is to actually go out an use it. You could, of course, test your skill to see what 'level' you are at. Examples would be testing against a trainer (for a fee), lifting official size stones (for a fee), presenting your magic before a master mage (for a fee), or bringing one of you cooked dishes to a chef (for a fee). These would give you an official ‘You are this level’ badge, belt, award, or whatever item that would affect other parts of the game (such as certain higher level trainers only training those with awarded ‘levels‘). But, you would not have to test it you did not wish.
I will use your own examples. A person who practices Judo outside of official training will have no belt until judges give it to him. The self-taught pianist will have no level until someone else recognizes it, and gives them a note. Seniority in a Union has nothing to do with skill, as many people can attest to, so that is a bad example. :)
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Seniority in a Union has nothing to do with skill, as many people can attest to, so that is a bad example. :)
No skill you say?? Well that just about makes Don Guido mad! .. What if I just let Vinnie and the boys take you for a ride out in the country.. don't bother pack'n nut'n either, you won't be stay'n long...
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Union seniority has nothing to do with skill but it does have a fair bit to do with job description and duties. Different duties require different skills to perform. A pianist who can perform flawlessly the examination program for a given level can claim the ability regardless of paying the fees and taking the exam. Certainly most interest societies whatever their form whether it be a Conservatory, a Dojo or a Brotherhood, etc. have the ladder type. I suggest it is the ability that is important not the recognition except for Union which as you say are somewhat different.
In your chef example I would judge my level by the menu items I could prepare regardless of how they came out, just so long as they were edible. Presumably one of the skills in that example would be specific recipes that you would suddenly somehow know. Would you, rather, start off being able to learn any recipe and the ramp effect would determine what level of complexity you could follow? What would happen if you just took a bunch of ingredients and started experimenting by taste? and whose taste will be the determinant factor? If I like my soup better than the soup Chef Hoity Toity makes with the same ingredient list is his still better? Many such skills are pretty subjective when you get right down to it. Is this (http://www.ottawasun.com/News/ottawa150/2005/07/25/voiceoffire.jpg) painting worth nearly 2 million dollars?
Well I've lost my train of thought so I'll leave it at that.
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I play the guitar and hockey. I have no idea what 'Level' I am in either.
Skills aren't THAT subjective. A good swords man will defeat his opponent, a good chef will have his food purchased regularly and a good artist will have his picture bought for 2 million dollars. That's not to say its a good piece of art, but they are a good artist.
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Skills aren't THAT subjective. A good swords man will defeat his opponent, a good chef will have his food purchased regularly and a good artist will have his picture bought for 2 million dollars. That's not to say its a good piece of art, but they are a good artist.
so does an average swordsman who is very strong and who has finest swords defeat a expert swordsman with normal swords who has average strength? Settings will get pretty complex with multiple variables, its not that black and white. not in life, not IG
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The only numbers I'd get rid of are the Progression Points, and that would sure be anti-powerleveling. But we've been there already. Which sure as hell doesn't mean I won't take every chance I get to criticize it. :D.
Anyway, I think it'd be nice if someone with metallurgy that trains enough suddenly think "I might be able to attempt melting gold now, I think I got it." Rather than the player thinking "Yes, my character is level 20, let's get rich." Or in the example of cooking, a cook that suddenly realizes that there's a trick to mixing ingredients and so he can try it with that recipe he never got right. I also think that you should be able to attempt at any recipe, though your results would be dreadful if you didn't have the skill required. There are many games with that system. Want to melt gold ore without knowing how it's done? There you go, a fresh nice, useless lump of metal for you. Now get to working with less complex materials.
I also judge it better to have a character think "I can kill a Trepor with a hit!" rather than a player bragging that his character does 400 damage.
How could this be done? Just take out the numbers. What would it mean? That you'd have to try things out each time you believe your skill has evolved. "And what does that mean?" That people will be forced into the realistic attempt method rather than the "that player told me" method.
I don't see anything wrong with that. Good thinking Feline Prince.
In Martial Arts people that wear the same belt might have different skill levels. In PS people of the same rank have exactly the same skill. I don't think comparing these makes much sense.
Still, there's nothing too wrong with using numbers. Numbers are references for players to use while they're roleplaying their character, they're useful for you, so you know how your character is faring in a certain skill and if you should rise it more or keep it like that to have it be the way you want. He's right though, it would add to the "immersible environment" thingy, though it could make life for players a little harder.
Variables are there anyway, without numbers or not. I don't get it Quq Leque.
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As far as I can tell the way the numbers get used in conversation is just a short-hand way of defining your place in the hierarchy. Certainly you can remove them from view but everything in computers is numbers so you cannot remove them completely. You can make it unwieldy to use them, but people will likely find some equally unpalatable way of marking their place if you do. People like order and will strive to show it whatever you do.
Part of the problem that seems to be expressed by the 'pro-obscurity' crew is that they cannot live with the dual nature of the character, or rather would prefer it did not show up in the game. This is understandable. What I mean by the dual nature is the character is also the player, the two have different viewpoints. What I think is needed is an education campaign to help the players not to pollute the main with their viewpoint instead of a campaign to make it impossible to know their place in the game. Like any other voluntary campaign it will not be easy.
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well yeah you could link numbers to a skill 'tag' like sword skill 1-20 being 'beginner swordsman' but you need a system where you hit a lot harder ar '20' beginner swordsman then you did at '1' beginner swordsman or training will seem to have no affect untill all of a sudden you're '21' and an advanced swordsman. For people saying they're a 'beginner swordsman' it could then however either mean they get killed by easy rogues (1) or that they can kill tefusang (20).
Not that it's a problem, just tricky to work out is what i'm saying. I don't like numbers either.
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Are all beginner swordsmen equally strong in reality?
I don't think so.
A level 1 swordfighter may be much weaker than a level 20 one but we can still call them both beginners. The second is just a bit more experienced, while the first just started their lessons.
What I mean is that the entire level system doesn't have to be changed. They can change the information we as players can see, give it some different names but underneath there are still levels. I have nothing against people marking their place but I'd much rather have people mark their place by saying "I train my blacksmithing under Trasok now." than "im lvl 12 n blacksmith!1!" :P Hiding the level values is the simplest way of accomplishing that, in my opinion.
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I find this all very interesting, though I have a question:
Why cater to "power-levellers" at all? Planeshift seems to be abnormal (from my experience) in the fact that it does have common roleplay.
As it stands, there have been many suggestions that are Roleplay-oriented to replace the highly traditional system which Planeshift uses.
Reading this thread here and its depth of thought on the issue is making me consider popping in for a while, but I'll wait for some answers on Suno_Regin's thread first though. To make life easier in the aforementioned system, I'll play a peasant.