PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: evil scotsman on September 29, 2007, 01:37:50 am
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Planeshift has a problem, namely the compass, or to be more accurate, the cardinal directions.
Since we inhabit a spherical world we are used to using the cardinal directions we know from our childhood, North, South, East and West. However Planeshift is not spherical, and our use of Earth based directions have many major problems in our Cylindrical world.
Mostly it's a question of names, and settings. Since the world of Planeshift is cylindrical in nature, north and south lose their meaning as directions, instead i'd like to propose the adoption of more useful names, such as sunward, wallward, clockwise and anticlockwise ( or perhaps widdershins ), much the same as the conventions used in Discworld, which work in their special circular setting.
At the moment we still use the familiar north south naming system, which works only because of the restricted nature of the world we have at present, however as the world enlarges and grows, the convention of referring to the Bronze Doors as 'northward' will have to change.
In the world of yliakum the inhabitants would soon have to abandon the earth based systems they were used to, instead they would develop a naming system that described directions based on the world they found themselves in thus sunward, which would be the direction one would walk in order to go from the wall to the edge of the level, from any point in the circle this would be a consistent direction similarly the converse could be known as wallward, which would be away from the sun, toward the wall. Equally clockwise would be to walk around the level in a right hand direction, anti-clockwise, or widdershins a left hand one. Logically to give directions a combination of sunward and clockwise might be used in order to describe the location of a particular place, for instance, the bronze doors might be described as 'following the road wallward', and north gate becomes the wall gate, the south gate the sun gate, etc.
I'm not saying that these names would be the ones that would be used, more discussing the eventual adoption of some system of naming of directions in a more IC manner than the OOC manner we use at present, obviously the details will need some fine tuning, and there will always be problems with navigation in a world that has no real analogue in our own experience I'm really just trying to call attention to an issue that may confront us some time in the future as the world changes around us.
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The PS world is not cylinder-shaped. Yliakum is part of a much larger planet; Yliakum qua is a vast network of descending caves below the ground. Years from now in far more developed releases of the game (after 1.0), we may get tastes of the surface.
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Scotsman, settings is aware of this issue and has discussed it many a time, and in fact have even discussed a discworld-style directional naming system.
One of these days we'll have something viable but until then, maybe it would be best to stick to landmarks and relative direction. :)
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For the purposes of navigation it's simpler to call it cylindrical since most navigation will be done on any given cylindrically shaped level, each level is indeed smaller than the one above, but follows the same shape, navigating vertically is simply a case of either up a wall, or down an edge, ( which is also the wall of the lower level), however navigation on each level must involve either travelling toward that level's wall, it's edge, or circularly around that level.
It's not a network of caves, it's one single cave hollowed out inside the stalactite, yes, it's part of a larger world, however this has no bearing on the problems of navigation, or the naming of directions within yliakum, in the future we may indeed have other areas to explore, but this is not certain yet and indeed will present other problems, including navigation.
*edit*
Scotsman, settings is aware of this issue and has discussed it many a time, and in fact have even discussed a discworld-style directional naming system.
One of these days we'll have something viable but until then, maybe it would be best to stick to landmarks and relative direction. :)
Ah, when I didn't find anything relevant in the forum I wondered, since I couldn't believe that no-one else had seen the potential problems, glad to see it's been discussed, I agree that at present, given the size of our world, that landmark and relative direction work, it just seems a little OOC to use north-south and such.
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As with many posts I am glad players are discussing it. We have talked about it but players showing support for certain changes does provide leverage. Thanks.
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Good point. Thinking about the situation for a few minutes gave me an idea that could be used instead of the four directions we all know.
I'm assuming all the levels of Yliakum have the shape of a circle, without the center. Now the most logical thing to do is divide that circle into sections. Whether we stick to the good old system and use four quadrants or maybe take over the clock system and use twelve, doesn't really matter. I'll leave that up to the settings to decide. One thing that does matter is getting a never changing, obvious for all, starting point.
Here we use magnetism for a starting point but that hasn't been known forever, before we used the sun and stars. Since Yliakum is a stalagtite on a bigger world, which also has a sun .. and we can see the effects of the sun through the Azure Crystal ... why can't we also use the sun? I mean there has to be one side of the crystal that darkens first when the sun sets and one side that lights up first when the sun comes up in the above world. Personally, I'd use that.
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No it all lights up instantly Zan. I've sat and watches it in game for days on end to check. :P
But seriously, Zan is right. Based of what he has said you could have a system that is basicaly North East South and West with new names. Not terribly original but it works and seems more realistic for practicality.
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First of, I think each PS map lacks the Azure Sun in in a postion where it realy should be. Each map is in the same bounding box, where something what looks like Azure Sun is at the top. I think that as we move around, we should see the Crystal in different places. I gues there is a difference we you sit near level edge and compare it to looking from the level wall.
So, with this, by looking at the Crystal, we know that facing it we go directly towards the level edge. Having it at our left side we are walking around the level opposing clock direction. With the crystal behind us, we go towards the level wall. With it at our right side we go around the level in direction as the clock goes. So one could call each of these directions N E S W... and this is how it is on our real surface planet too. For instance going constantly west, you would reach the point you started from.
So, all in all, we should have 4 directions, but I'm sure they would call them differenty in Yliakum, coz even if the priniple remains the same, standing 50km away you can't say the direction arrows show the same directions as before. The scale of the phenomenon is much smaller.
For instance, you can create words, which sounds similiar to In_Front, Behind, At_Right and At_Left in the language of the first race in Yliakum, or the First race, which cared to create directions ;)
I also like Zans idea with dividing each level into zones basing on polar coordinate system. Because it is what i been thinking about too since long.
Because if you know i which zone you are, from many things, you can know for instance what is the distance to another zone.
There could be 6 main zones, with each starting every 60o And then each of these divided further into 6, what give a zone every 10o.
Adding to this, there could be a ring every 5km for radial divide of the surface.
This sounds complicated, so i would expect only smarter and educated people to operate with this. A commoner should know only the 6 base zones.
As for compas, i gues the setting team already knows about an idea with device, which always show the direction of the Azure Sun. And if there is magnetic field, this mixed with casual compas. So, two arrows and possibility to measure the angle beetwen them. This way ability to tell in which zone you are i think.
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I think that indeed we would tend to use the azure sun as our natural centre point, and all major directions would be based on this, a polar coordinate system would naturally follow from this, with the divisions radiating out like the spokes of a wheel, terminating naturally at the wall, so each 'region' would be a wedge shape.
Language tends to evolve to fit the environment and culture of it's users, so I think that naturally we would refer to directions based on the position of the sun, with reference to our present position, so walking away from the sun would be something like 'anti-sun', 'wallward', or simply 'away', and toward would be 'sunward', or perhaps simply 'inward', perhaps the leftward and rightward directions would be as simply named.
I like the idea of a compass based on two systems, since this could also provide position information to a suitably skilled navigator, yet be simple enough to provide basic direction for the novice.
A system based on polar coords and a two system compass could be incredibly sophisticated, yet easy enough to use for new players, although compasses were not standard equipment for the average person in medieval times.
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Good ideas, guys; keep it coming. Personally I prefer wallward and "edgeward," although that wouldn't work too well on the Pit level, which has no edge seeing as it's the floor.
Protip: think of eight sections as this part's been done, even though it's meaningless to the player at this point. :detective:
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Isn't the pit section fully submerged though? And if I'm not mistaken not all that big either? I don't think a lot of direction is needed there ... you can replace "edgeward" with "central" though.
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Jeraphon. That bottom level is so small anyway, that you can hardly get lost there. (or it is deeper than wider i think hm) But indeed, they may need a coords system there too. Or a system, which helps to tell where you are. Near the fact that a polar system wouldn't work right there, the bottom level isn't just the surface - it is a 3D space. It is an underwater world.
So because of that fact Nolthirs and Klyros could feel the need to have a different coords system than the rest of Yliakum anyway.
I can't say how such a system could look like. They could need a deepth indicator... A tool which measures the preasure. But I don't know i Yliakum is on high enough tech level (it is past medieval).
Maybe there could be underwater waybuoys (container filled with air, attached to the ground at the bottom), which float at given deepths.
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They could need a deepth indicator... A tool which measures the preasure.
They could just use their bodies. Water's dense enough that if you lived in it naturally, you'd probably be able to tell how deep you are just by what it feels like. That would cover the majority of people. They'd still need something precise for records and such though.
Cylindrical coords sounds great to me. The nature of the world as a whole is irrelevant, since to most people, Yliakum is the whole world.
As for one side of the crystal lighting up first, that isn't very likely. The "ceiling" of the stalactite is still miles below the surface, so there's a very large amount of crystal and distance for the light to go through. Partly due to the angles, and partly due to the sheer amount of crystal, the light will be pretty evenly dispersed by the time it gets to the bottom.
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Seems to me we need a three part coordinate system: degree, radius, and height. You specify one direction as being 0(360) degrees, set the radius to be the greatest internal distance from the designated center, and depth from top to bottom. This would allow you to specify any location within the stalactite and even outside. A compass could be nothing more than a needle shaped shard of the crystal within a liquid filled glass ball. Precise markings on the outside of the globe would give you all three coordinates. It may well need some magic to ensure the markings are always oriented correctly. This would assume that such a shard would exhibit homeostatic tendencies, if I can stretch the meaning. A more simple compass might require no magic but for the user to face the crystal, less useful, of course if inside a cave or building or whatnot where the crystal is not visible. Such places may have markings to indicate the appropriate direction if they are common places for people to be.
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Good ideas, guys; keep it coming. Personally I prefer wallward and "edgeward," although that wouldn't work too well on the Pit level, which has no edge seeing as it's the floor.
Protip: think of eight sections as this part's been done, even though it's meaningless to the player at this point. :detective:
'Edgeward' works fine, describes the direction of travel perfectly, and since the lowest two levels are flooded there is no problem using edgeward to describe inward travel, (toward the centre of the 'lake').
I'm glad the there is mention of quadrants already, or rather 'octants', which ties up neatly with the octarchy, or am I extrapolating too far to fast? ;)
I like the thinking on compasses, obviously these too will have been discussed, but the eventual system used should be interesting to navigate with. Already I can see some thought of levels of skill being thought of, with regard to compass use.
As far as the light from the crystal is concerned, i'd expect that a crystal this large would have a lot of internal reflection/refraction going on, and this would probably mean that not only would the light be diffuse and non-directional, but would probably be subject to transmission delays, and this would also explain why the crystal is never truly dark, even at night. Anyone know what the refractive index of the crystal is anyway? :)
Finally, as a bit of a science geek, I do tend to think of the physics of the Planeshift world as a natural part of the settings, since regardless of the fact it's a medieval fantasy setting, the science still has to work, for me anyway. :thumbup:
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I'm glad the there is mention of quadrants already, or rather 'octants',
You are refering to my hexans? ;P I just wonder where from you got the 'octans' ;>
As far as the light from the crystal is concerned, i'd expect that a crystal this large would have a lot of internal reflection/refraction going on, and this would probably mean that not only would the light be diffuse and non-directional, but would probably be subject to transmission delays, and this would also explain why the crystal is never truly dark, even at night.
Do you know what is lightspeed, fiber wire and why transmissions through it are so fast? ;P
Azure Sun shine at night, because it has properties of light accumulation. It accumulate at the day and releases at night.
since regardless of the fact it's a medieval fantasy setting, the science still has to work, for me anyway. :thumbup:
I like ya.
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you are refering to my hexans? ;P I just wonder where from you got the 'octans' ;>
well i assume hexans refers to the six divisions you proposed, however Jeraphon hinted that eight divisions were already a reality although not noticeable in game yet, hence octans :)
Do you know what is lightspeed, fiber wire and why transmissions through it are so fast? ;P
yes, the speed of light in a vacum is 299792458 metres per second, and that fibre optics use fast laser diodes for high speed data transmission, however in a hypercomplex crystalline structure such as the azure sun, who knows what reflections and refractions of the incoming light may do, there may indeed be a certain amount of light accumulation, which implies a delay in the transmission of light from surface to yliakum.
I'm not saying it's perfect science, since the refractive index of the crystal is unknown it can do anything settings says it can do, I was just trying to shed a little light on the subject ;)
since regardless of the fact it's a medieval fantasy setting, the science still has to work, for me anyway. :thumbup:
I like ya.
Thank you, and for the other matter, it's appreciated :thumbup:
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So what happens to those who venture into the stone labyrinths? Is going back to the wall wallward or edgeward? :)
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I thought no one actualy knew about where anything really was in the labryinth, and most of it was just wandering around. then you wouldn't have to worry about wallward/edgeward stuff.
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When they walk there Jeraphon, they get lost ;P Maybe thats why rarely anyone is coming back
Thogh of course the polar coords system would expand there just fine. In theory, because it would be hard to measure it there.
Unless the compas with arrow showing the crystal would come to existance. Some other time i was speculating with someone that it could have dead zones (not work) in areas of the libirynth and the furher from the Crystal, the worse it gets.
And the directions like edgeward would still make sense. If i was lost there, maybe i would even start worship talad and pray that i walk in the edgeward direction ;P and end on the right height too xD
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is there some magnetic pole in the stalagtite?
I was just thinking, if there was something that was attacted to the tip of the stalactite, you would be able to tell where you were by the angle of a needle with some of that material on the end
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however in a hypercomplex crystalline structure such as the azure sun, who knows what reflections and refractions of the incoming light may do, there may indeed be a certain amount of light accumulation, which implies a delay in the transmission of light from surface to yliakum.
I don't know about crystals, but I do know it takes a long time for light to get out of the sun:
Estimates of the "photon travel time" range from as much as 50 million years[12] to as little as 17,000 years.
That's to cover a displacement of only 6.955×10^8 m. Once out of the Sun itself, it covers the 1.5 x10^11 m between the sun and the Earth in about eight minutes, which is about 4000 times as far.
I doubt the crystal would hold light up for years, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did delay light for hours or so. And if it didn't delay all light, that would explain the phenomena we experience. I don't think it's very likely though.
Alternately, there could be a large number of stars, very bright moons, or glowing materials (magma, radioactive rocks, mushrooms, etc) providing light for the crystal. And of course, it's magic, so the dim light could just be that magic glow. Personally, I find these explanations more believable than the light delay.
Speaking of magic, if it did delay light, and delayed it long enough (like, for thousands of years) it would gradually collect a huge amount of energy that's bouncing around inside. That could be the source for its magic.
is there some magnetic pole in the stalagtite?
I was just thinking, if there was something that was attacted to the tip of the stalactite, you would be able to tell where you were by the angle of a needle with some of that material on the end
That would be cool. If you knew either your elevation or the distance to the axis of the stalactite, you'd be able to calculate the other. In general, elevation would be the known factor due to the different levels. So it would be relatively easy for the crafter to give it special notches or markings to show the distances based on which level you're on (cheap or compact models could just have the markings for a single level).
You could also do the same thing if it pointed to the Azure Sun rather than the tip. In that case, you could actually estimate your distance without any instruments, simply by glancing up to see what angle the sun's at. Similar to how we can look at the sun to see the time. In fact, they could also set up gauges using shadows to make calculations. You take a vertical object and compare it's height to the length of it's shadow. arctan(height_of_object/length_of_shadow)=angle_of_sun=theta. Then, take your vertical distance from the sun (based on which level you're on) and call that E. We'll call the distance from the stalactite's axis R. R=E/tan(theta). So that means, R=E/(height/length), therefor R=E*length_of_shadow/height_of_object.
This is a simple calculation that even the uneducated people would be able to do. It takes a little trigonometry to derive that forumla, but only simple algebra to compute. And the only things you need to know are E and the ratio of the shadow to the height. You don't even need the actual numbers for the shadow and height! If the shadow is twice as long, your position is E*2. If it's half as long, it's E/2. And E only changes if your elevation changes, mainly if you climb a mountain or change levels.
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So what happens to those who venture into the stone labyrinths? Is going back to the wall wallward or edgeward? :)
A simple fix for this issue would be BWW (Beyond WallWard), anything past the mapped walls of the stalagtite would have this in the coordinates.
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I've got an idea!!!111!@1 How about the compasses are made of glass balls, and inside of them is a little piece of rock or something that's attracted to the Crystal. It wouldn't work out that well on any of the lower levels, but it'd be very useful if you were on the uppermost level. On the glass could be inscriptions of directions and etc. And then, at the bottom, it would say Made in Mars by Raa Incorporated... ;D
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Yeah, all you need is angle and your actual height to determine the radius. And you don't even need a tool, which will show the angle. You can calculate it with use of a stick.
That's theory only,
because you actually don't know your height. Because each Yliakum isn't flat like a CD plate (or DVD these times x]). Not only it has hills, but it has shape of a upside-down cone, without its bottom and very sharp angle (not 25o as the library book suggests ;P, what is confirmed bug btw), ange of maybe 5o ?
Saying it, the highest and lowest points of each level as an Interval may be "commonly" known and you can eighter try to gues your actual height as shorter Interval or use the wider Interval and thus calculate the radius as an Interval too.
Speaking about mathematics, you are not first to find all this out Pizzasgood ;P
And the reason why it would be good to have second compas arrow showng the north pole (which hopefully exists, because the world we are in have magnetic field, what isn't sure!), the reason is that we can find out the angle of our polar coods system.
So with such a compas you find your ~EXACT position in Yliakum :) isn't it nice and makes our real world compas kind of stupid looking? ;)
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I forgot there's a slope. I did say it would be an estimate though, and over long distances. More like "oh, I see I'm halfway through my long voyage" than "hmm... the buried treasure should be two point five feet to my left." Just like how I can't look at the sun and tell the time to the minute, but I can tell that it's around five or so.
Since for precision you'll need to know actual distances, perhaps the crystal-seeking-needle can also display magnitude, as in, the closer you are to the Azure Sun, the stronger the needle glows. Then you've got the angle and the hypotenuse, which will give you both elevation and radius. You might want to add something to help level it too, or you won't get the right angle. A weighted string would be cheapest, but you could also use a spell or a "bubble-in-a-tube".
And yeah, a traditional compass added in to the mix would give you exact position. I was originally going to say something like, "Then tack on a traditional compass..." but it must have gotten lost when I was restructuring the post.
They are very cool compasses though, with all the pressure sensing and needles and leveling. Probably ridiculously expensive too. Thus why I keep coming back to ways to estimate without devices.
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Personally, I believe that if you are looking for directions you should use the 6 Bronze door regions. They go all across the upper level of Yliakum and are as far as I know, fairly evenly spaced. Having a 6 point compass may take a while to get use to but would be interesting, plus you would always know where the BDs were! If not I suppose the crystal would have some function that could be incorporated into a compass.
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Since for precision you'll need to know actual distances, perhaps the crystal-seeking-needle can also display magnitude, as in, the closer you are to the Azure Sun, the stronger the needle glows. Then you've got the angle and the hypotenuse, which will give you both elevation and radius. You might want to add something to help level it too, or you won't get the right angle. A weighted string would be cheapest, but you could also use a spell or a "bubble-in-a-tube".
I wonder on that paragraph.
AFAIK you need to know only one distance (height to crystal) and if it is precise, you know your posiotion preciselly, or only the radius of your position.
I also don't see what you mean by the crystal-seeking-needle, what magintude it is going to show and how? Also a strength of a glow isn't a very good way of measuring. A light souce is good only for binary measure. (glowing -1- working, not glowing -0- not working. There is no semi glow)
Ok, if by the strength of the glow you could say the hypotenuse, then you have both radius and height. But as i explained above, you can't.
And for positioning the tool ~ideally horizontal the "bubble-in-a-tube" would do just fine, in fact two of these.
Ok, the tool is getting really expensive ;P But that is for educated cartographer or just someone rich. For normal people the tool may be simple, a bit unprecise because of that. Although i'm too lazy to calculate the possible Interval of error, i don't expect it to be high. Maybe you will? ;P
Btw, calculating angles into normal numbers isn't that easy without calculator ;P and so isn't the th root of a number ;P
Although people do calculate these somehow, they don't teach us this comonly anymore, so i can't say how. I only except this to be a bit time taking.
It is possible to use tables of pre calculated values, what works quite well. But it is another thing you have to own to know your position.
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I was being stupid when I said it should glow. Something more like one of those simple rubberband force meters used in physics classes would work better: http://www.practicalphysics.org/imageLibrary/jpeg200/317.jpg Except much smaller, and hooked up to some pivots so one end can point in a full hemisphere (you'd only need a full sphere if you plan to go above the sun, but at that point, the pointing device might not even point correctly anymore).
EDIT: Yeah, it would need two leveling tubes. I forgot that it could be tilted in the other direction. Only if you used tubes though. You could make a slightly curved "button" shape, with a circle or spot in the center. Then the bubble would be in the circle when level, and move any other time.
Okay, now let's see if I can explain the whole mechanism.
Assuming there's a horizontal magnetic field, you have a magnetic compass. That doesn't need explanation. It's needle is the M-needle. You have another needle that points to the tip of the Azure Sun. The C-needle. It's attracted to the crystal strongly enough that you could fashion a device to measure how hard it's attracted (force would weaken with distance). That would allow you to calculate the distance to the tip, which is your hypotenuse. The user wouldn't need to calculate it, only the crafter, who would add notches saying, "50 km", "60 km", etc. There's also a leveling device to make sure the angles are correct.
To determine your angle around the axis of the stalactite, you'd compare the angle of the M-needle and the C-needle. One end of the C-needle will be low (unless you're level with the crystal), so it would point to an angle. Various means could be used to make reading it easier, even having a second C-needle that doesn't point up at all, only towards the axis, or just having an adjustable dial that you'd point toward the crystal via sight, similar to the mechanism on our compasses.
To determine the angle to the crystal, you check the angle of the C-needle. Simple enough.
To determine your hypotenuse, you use the magnitude element of the C-needle, which would be pre-marked like a ruler or scale.
Then you get to do the math, which wouldn't be near as easy as a simple estimation based on eyeballing the sun, knowing the approximate elevation, and guessing your radial position based on walls, ceiling, or opposite side. For this device, you'd definitely need to be one of the educated. Though for just a coordinate system, if you based it off the tip of the crystal, you wouldn't need any calculations (other than subtraction between M-needle and C-needle) to get your actual coordinates, just to translate them into distances. But maybe if you grew up using this system, it wouldn't be so bad to estimate. We're used to cartesian coordinates because that's what we've always used. And basic conversion factors for general intervals might be commonly known (kinda like how some people can actually use English units. I just use feet, miles, and pounds. Anything else is metric). Especially within a certain region. So people on the first level might know approximately how far a degree is at the edge, and at every 1/10 of the way back to the wall or so. Then just estimate within them. Again, that wouldn't yield precise measurements or anything. Just trying to emphasize that it could be possible for the laykran to have a basic idea of distances expressed using a polar coordinate system, especially in his region.
But that's just a "simple" version of the compass, using minimal magic and gadgetry. If I sat down and thought about it, I could probably come up with a machine that would do most of the work automatically with minimal magic (mainly to counter friction and increase attractive forces). I feel safe in saying a needle can be fashioned that would point to the crystal, but otherwise, you could get away with "pointers" and various methods of alignment (it's a light source, so it wouldn't be too hard with the right equipment). In that case, distance would be the trickier part. Depending on the precision of your parts and alignment, maybe you could set up two separate "pointing" devices and triangulate it.
Also, I haven't worked out any of the actual numbers to see how much precision we'd actually need for these calculations. It may be that you'd need a huge compass to get a close enough reading. I'd have to dig up the dimensions of the cavern and crunch a couple numbers, but I'm too busy right now. The trickiest part, again, would be the distance mechanism. You'd need enough attraction to see a difference, but not so much that it get's yanked out of your hand, and also not so much that traveling a small distance uses up all the "travel" in it. Maybe it would be better to just add a separate magic-field-magnitude sensor that works via other means than attraction. I think that's why I originally said glowing, but that isn't precise enough.
Even if it turned out a pocket device wouldn't work, the more eccentric people might still have built gigantic devices in the name of science. Or even a Stonehenge type deal by the less modern types (everyone knows Stonehenge was originally built as a gigantic polar-coordinate uber-compass by people suffering from PlaneShift withdrawal during a server outage)
Maybe if I get bored on my coming 4-day weekend I'll do all that, and maybe even dig out Blender or a cad program to see if I could model the device. That could take a while though, but it would be pretty fun, and worthy of a student in my engineering heavy college. Actually, creating blueprints for an ubercompass that would only work in a video game world miles underground inside a giant stalactite probably wouldn't even be considered strange here. Maybe a little obsessive, and I guess the fact that the video game isn't Halo or WOW might be considered strange, but not by much.
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I just realized something pretty cool. Take the compass described above, but instead of the M-needle, make it an M-disk with angle marks labeled on it. Like one of these http://www.navis.gr/navaids/images/compass.jpg
For one thing (unrelated to the cool thing), this way the "back" end of the C-needle (the end pointing away from the crystal) would point at the actual angle, since the angle marks would always be oriented correctly due to it's pointing north.
Now, for the cool part. Take a top-down map of Yliakum, projected so that it looks like if you went to the tip of the crystal and took a picture of everything below (as in, things that are at high elevations are closer to the edge of the map, low things toward the center, so a tall perfectly vertical tower would seem to move outwards toward the top. Basically, it's a perspective thing). Stick that map on the M-disk, oriented so north matches north.
That accomplishes two things. The first is that you have a "permanently" oriented map of Yliakum. Not amazing by itself. But the second thing is that if you have the C-needle above the M-disk, only just high enough for the back-end of the needle to not touch when it's pointing directly up, then the back end of the needle will point at your location.
Well, if you're on the ground it will. If you're in the air, it will still point at you, if you visualize yourself projected into the map. There would also be issues if your not in line-of-site of the sun, in which case the object blocking it would cover your location on the map (like a big mountain).
Granted, unless you have a big honking compass, it wouldn't help for short distances, but you could easily see your location on a larger scale.
The other cool thing about this is that you can apply the same concept to make a map viewer. As in, you input a set of coordinates, and it will point to the location. You could also run it in reverse: point it at a location on the map, and it will return the angles. If you really want to be fancy, you could actually build a 3d model of Yliakum, in which case you could modify things slightly to take into account the distance R from the sun, in which case inputting coordinates would actually give the exact point rather than just pointing.
Also, unlike the compass, the map viewer deal wouldn't care if there's a magnetic system or if things can be attracted to the crystal. The only thing it depends on is the coordinate system.
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Oh, if had more time, i would comment.
But you are fast, won't say ;> You are approaching an idea i had in mind for a while. Except pictures ;>
And your image is not a compass ;P well you didn't call it so, but those who did don't know the topic. Unless in english people don't see a difference beetwen a rotating plate, (like on the image) and a rotating needle.
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Speaking for U.S. "English" only (dunno 'bout them Brits), we don't see a difference between one device that has an arrow pointing north and another, at least in my experience. Needle, plate, orb, LCD, whatever. It points direction.
I also had thoughts on using a light shield and a hollow "needle" for C-needle, so that a spot of light would land on your angle or, in the map-toting version, your location. That would help take care of the issue of projecting from the needle to the point, since it would be up in the air a bit when you're a good ways away from the crystal.
One way to make triangulation easier if you went the binocular-compass route instead of crystal-needle attraction would be to have a pre-marked rod between the two needle mounts. Then just use that to "measure" the distance between the two rear ends of the needles, but you'd actually be measuring the distance to the crystal. At least, if you're pointed at it well enough. The rod could help with that too though, because if you're pointed correctly, each needle will be at the same notch in opposite directions. They'd have to be spaced widely enough to make a visible difference though. I'll have to run the numbers on that one to see if it would work. If you replaced the needles with telescopes, you could also use it as a general purpose range-finder. But again, that would probably need big distances to be measurable, unless you stuck some long levers on the ends and gave them fulcrums near the scopes, to amplify the distances (and function as fine-adjustment). You have to aim pretty precisely though.
I downloaded the latest Blender last night and it feels faster than 2.44. So I think I will make some compass models this weekend just for the heck of it. I need an excuse to practice anyways.
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Maybe i reply without images yet ;P
And something i forgot before:
Thanks for Erisnas for pointing out there are 6 bronze doors, this would explain why it would be good to cartographicaly divide Yliakum into 6 parts, one every 60o !
Pizzasgood
The idea with weights is interesting, but i have doubts it would work at all. I don't think the force, which would make the arrow point the crystal is strong enough to attach weights to it and see when they are too heavy. Additionally, I'm not that much into science, but i thik the arrow would change angle no matter what weights you add. lighter weihts would change the weights very slightly, heavier - stronger. And even if not that, it would be pain in the ass to add these weights. I'm too lazy to count possibilities, But lets say you have 15 weights of 3 kinds to use and you should be able to measure hypotenuse of 80km... with exactness to 10m this means 8 000 of possibilities :s Even if we had enough weights for that many possibilities, there is no frakking force, which would make me to ad these weights, while my hand start to shake with the compas on it ;P
(50m, 60km is exactness not good enoug for me ;>)
If you was thinkng about professional cartographers, who attach their compass to the ground for stability, i think they would use istead a normal compass. To determine height of hills on each level, they would measure the two angles and distances been wen each of their measurnment. With enough measurnments, they could form an equation wth one unknown, calculate it and then calculate all the other unknowns.
Triangulation it is called i gues.
Going further with your post. You can dig the Yliakum dimensions ;P I gues you would look into "Yliakum geography" for reference? ;P
The book author messed it up ;) A prove for it you have there (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=28446.0), because 25o or 30o for a level slope is too much.
then the back end of the needle will point at your location.
I fail to see it ;P
As for the differences beetwen compasses, the needle one is for personal use, the disk one was mounted on ship and still are i think. There we call it "busola" It is more complicated, more precise and honestly i know not enough to elaborate what is the exact difference beetwen it and a casual compass :]
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You can dig the Yliakum dimensions
Yeah, I've seen a them in a couple different places, including that image you made. Just hadn't gotten around to digging them out.
As for compasses with disks, I have a handheld one. It's the kind where it's in a clamshell case, and the top part of the case, when opened, has a slit with a wire down the center that you can use to line up with landmarks. I never bother with it though. Usually I don't even bother with that particular compass, because it's so much more bulky than the standard kind and you can't see through it to use it with a map. It's more for surveying than camping.
I definitely didn't convey the "weights" idea well. You wouldn't be adding weights at all. The C-needle would be housed within a tube with a spring/rubber-band holding it back. Then the crystal would pull on it, and you could calculate the distance based on displacement. But it wouldn't work anyways. Aside from the issue of being pulled away from you all the time, the displacements that would be practical for such a device wouldn't give much accuracy.
Triangulating the distance of the crystal with the method I described also won't work on any kind of realistic setup. It would take modern equipment to get enough precision out of the angles. After I look at the actual dimensions I'll see if I can think of another way.
(50m, 60km is exactness not good enoug for me ;>)
Those were just random numbers, since I didn't know whether we were dealing with things 5 km across or 250 km across. Looking at your picture, that would be horrible precision ;D
As for the back end of the needle pointing at your location, I can't really explain much better than I did. Basically, the C-needle will be pointing from you to the sun, so if you pretended it's fulcrum was the sun and Yliakum were below it, the end of the needle pointing away from the real sun would be pointing at you in the imaginary Yliakum. So then you just have to project a map of Yliakum that would match that, which it turns out is just the bird's eye view from the tip of the crystal. Since the map is on a magnetized disk that always stays oriented it would work wherever you are.
Looking at your picture, I wonder if the angles would work out for some of the lower levels. Eyeballing it looks like things will be fine for the first two, but past that the edges might be blocked by the above level. Unless they stop being so.. over-lapping. But that only messes up maps that show features. You could replace them with simple color-coded lines, showing the edges of each level. So if you know which level you're on, you could still get an idea for how far from the wall and edge you are.
I'm going to model it tomorrow or Saturday, so I'm not going to bother drawing it again (I already have sketches, but no scanner to digitize them). Then this stuff should make more sense.
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mmm, Time for the product of mine:
Yliakean compass (http://psgrafika.republika.pl/compass.swf) 6MB [you been waened]
Technical issues:
resize your browser to height 600px or lower
the outer ring is having some pattern and light flashes, which i don't know why are there. This unfortunately makes the angle-scale even harder visible.
Legend:
There are basically 5 elements
1. The grey part is the one you put on your hand and which keeps all the parts in one piece. It should have a plocking mechanism to block the rotating parts, when you want to check the angles.
2. The horizontal ring is the casual "compass" element, which show the north direction. It can rotate only horizontaly.
3. The outer ring with the globe inside. The globe is so that it can rotate in all 3 axis directions. It is pointing towards the Azure Sun. It is a complete full ring for proper weight disribution.
4. The goldish marker, which show the two angles.
5. Two bubble level elements for finding out the horizontal surface.
I gues thats it.
What bothers me, is that i'm not sure the friction isn't too high and i'm not sure if there is much you can do to decrease it.
You can triangulate with the above compass. The best way to do so is measure two point of the same height and the distance beetwen them.
The levels do overlap, that was known since the start, if Talad and laanx was math and efficiency freaks, then i'm sure that the light radiating from the Crystal is parallel to the wall surface, so that the walls arent really lighted up ;> So, the lower the level, the less it is overlaped.
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Great thing, Nikodemus! Don't worry about the friction, there's magic :P
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I haven't forgotten this. Just been busier than I expected. I have a basic version (not the kind that points to your location) modeled and rigged (armature's on layer 2), but not textured. Oh, and I just realized I forgot to connect the needle-housing to the rest of the compass, so that's floating... There's a .blend file at http://www.browserloadofcoolness.com/art/3d/planeshift/simple_compass.blend
That's just a work in progress. I need to connect it and make sure the normals are correct. Then I'll probably skip texturing and start on the fancier version that points out your location. Then I'll go through and texture and render both.
By the way, I don't remember much about centers of gravity and rigid body dynamics, so I'm not sure if the way I counterbalanced the needle in the simple version above would actually work. In case you haven't looked at it, I basically chopped off half the needle to save space, then added a bulge where it used to be that should be filled with something heavy enough to perfectly counterbalance the long end of the needle. I know that you can do that to balance it horizontally, but I don't remember if it would remain stable at any arbitrary angle. If not, that particular design wouldn't work unless the attraction to the crystal was enough to make the error due to gravity negligible.
Oh, and I see you thought to use a ring too :) I didn't think about sliders though. Those are nifty. I used more of a forked needle type thing. Slightly less precise to read, but it also has less potential to get filled with gunk and no need for lubrication. Plus, it kinda looks like the windowless tower :) (hey, there's another method for naviagation: big lighthouse-style towers spaced at known distances. They could serve triple purpose as "lighthouses", communication, and lookouts. Probably only within certain fiefdoms or districts though, unless an entire level was organized and cooperated, which doesn't seem likely. I never paid much attention to the government aspect of the settings though...)
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How hard is it to get lost on a freak'n donut?
You have a cliff on one side and a sheer face on the other so if you don't head in either of those directions you will eventually get back to where you came from.
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if you pay attention annamed you would know this discussion is only in part about getting lost. So if you are comenting on that, it would be nice to comment on the rest, what is in fact in majority of this thread.
Besides if you didn't notice, people complain all the time they get lost ;) And think, what we have now is only tiny part of what is to come one day. We have zones, which cover are of from the edge to the wall long. It should be 10km if remember right. But it is like 5km right now.
I know that you can do that to balance it horizontally, but I don't remember if it would remain stable at any arbitrary angle.
Yeah, i think it wouldn't work. but I know a little on the topic too, maybe even less than you. Because of that, just in case, i formed the outer ring to be full.
heh, my sliders are nifty, although i believe they could sometimes block the device unintentionally. Because: the ball will want to move both horizontally and vertically, if at a time at some angle the vertical force will be strong enough to pus the slider into the horizontal ring so that the horizontal force moving the bal won't overcome it, then the device won't move, untill you move it so that, the friction will decrease enough. If you see what i mean.
And yea, like Donari wes laugting that we have magic ;P But i gues he knows well how i feel about it ;> Magic is good, but it isn't always that easy ;> As easy as people often introduce in games, a force with no logic and conseqeences.
Your device for a change has very small potential for a friction. If saw it right. The ring for magnetic field is like mine, but the part showing the crystal is a ring and a needle. The ring is mounted to the rest and rotating only hotizontlly but the needle is mounted on that ring, with ability to move only vertically. In effect that part works like my ball.
I have been thinking about that too, but instead i realised that i can decrease fricton and problem with blocking sliders in my device, in a different way.
I can reduce the device to smaller ring rotating around the grey part and only a ball inside the grey part. Additionally trap the ball in a glass bubble, filled with oil.
Draw angle scale on the ball, another on the glass bubble for comparison and thus finding horizontal angle of he ball. But then, without the sliders one has to sum the horizontal angle of the ball and the angle of magnetic ring. This isn't very practical, but in such a form can work 360o vertically.
I gues it is hard to see it by words. I can provide another flash animation on request.
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No actually my comment was dead on. You are getting all excited about adding an element to the game that is quite absurd. PS is not set on a vast empty space, like an ocean or desert or flying in the open sky. No! PS is set in a cave with walls and cliffs. Very good and obvious land marks ones that at beta should be seen quite clearly in the back grounds. The whole notion of a compass and the wasted effort to bringing one about is what I questioned.
But really, people get lost in PS?? REALY?!? WOW, that just blows my mind, how the heck can anyone get lost in a bordered zone, it's not like you can walk unbound in any direction with out end. And then for later on just think about it, you have a sheer face on one side and a drop on the other. we are talking about a face as tall as a mountain and the drop can be like talking about a ocean, cause that empty space is just as flat and featureless as if it was water filled. As an example, lets use LA. To the north you got the San Bernardino mountains to the south you got the Pacific Ocean and in between you got a bit under 50 miles of city and burbs. Even in the LA smog haze you can make out the mountains to the north and the empty space to the south. So I don't know how with the miniscule distance of just 10K you can't see the two obvious and most distinct land marks of the PS landscape. Now if the wall is on your right, you are traveling counter clockwise and if its on your left you are travleing clock wise and 10 K is not that far to see whats around, it's not like there's a horizon either.
So, what's next in the works? Let me guess, a sextant so you can plot longitude and latitude by the glow worms in the ceiling...
It's quite apparent that you all have talent, why can't you apply it to more constructive means.. I don't know, like mounts.. Anyway I apologize for deflating your balloon.
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*Starts a movie style slow clap* Good for you Magellan, you're innate sense of direction is amazing.
However, prepare to have your mind blown again. I've been playing this game for nearly two years, as I recall the first update I ever was around for they added that awesomely bizarre spawning grass stuff... so I guess you could say I'm older than the grass. :P And you know what? I still get lost. I couldn't tell you which is the north-south-west-eastarn Hydlaa gate and I still find myself occasionally getting seriously turned around on a trip to Oja and back.
By the way, I'm from SoCal, I've lived in LA and I would get lost there too. Short of "if you see the ocean, that's west" and freeway signs I almost never had any idea which compass direction I was going. And I figure I can't be all that alone either... unless those GPS systems in cars are just for show.
Just because you feel this isn't a useful allocation of resources doesn't mean it's true. I for one wouldn't mind a compass and if i was, oh say, a newcomer to the game, or someone RPing a mapmaker, I could also see how it could come in very handy.
*re-inflates the "balloon"* O--)
P.S. When the heck can you ever see anything all the way around you in LA? :P
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I may well be as far from whats going on as i can be here, but i feel the need to give my view.
To start with as far as i can see the idea behind this thread is to evolve an idea, someone saw a base problem and the thread ( ideas) have evolved from there. where as the last post by Unnamed Source seems to want to de-evolve it.
We all have to remember that evolution is a good thing, after all without it PS would still be a dream inside someone ( /me bows my head in homage).
I can understand the point of landmarks being enough to start with and yes in the current PS world it may well be hard to get lost although i for one have done. And thats for a very simple reason, we can't always be in a place to see vast distance for example in a valley and i have found myself in a few.
The idea of having some math basic directional system is a good idea no matter what path it takes, After all there is a cartography skill and the more accurate the map the better in my opion. I'll leave you guys to discuss it and for the PS teams to sort out the refinements since all the Gods know i'm no great mind for such matters. I'm far happier with the light on my back and my flute playing softly.
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As a person with a great deal of cartographic experience, I thought I could add something to this conversation.
The person above suggests that there is no way to get lost in Yliakum. I know it's not possible to ever get lost anywhere (you always know where you are, you are right where you are standing!) Many people perceive that they can get lost, so it doesn't matter what he thinks.
I recommend that you try to stick to a conventional 2 axis horizontal projection for each level. The reason is that while it would be fun to use polar coords or some other system, many people would not be able to use or understand those systems. Even though a horizontal projection doesn't work at all well on the Earth, we use that very projection for simpliciity, and it is likely that Yliakumites would do so too.
The next question is how do we measure the directions? On Earth, we are lucky enough to have a fairly consistent whole planet magnetic field, but it is by no means certain the same would be true for Yliakum. My personal opinion is that a system which points toward the Azure Sun would be hopelessly complicated for most people, because aligning the map would be extremely difficult. So I recommend trying to find some means for keeping a northing and easting sort of system. If there is no magnetic field, perhaps the magic flux could orient the compass. Or perhaps a magnetic tip on the Azure Sun would have a measurable polarity with Yliakum instruments.
The ideas of using the directions of the bronze doors is interesting, however how would such a system be used when the doors aren't visible? Again magic could come to the rescue, but we run into issues of which direction are we going again. If we are going wallward for example, it doesnt tell us where we are unless we know where we are going wallward toward. And try to decipher this: bearing 5 degrees right of door 4, with 30 degree axial tilt making us 3000 meters wallward of the center. While that kind of measurement is mappable, it is very difficult for the layman to understand. Compare that with 3000 meters south 4000 meters east from the center, which is much easier for most people to visualize.
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Perhaps we could develop two objects to be sold in Yliakum. One for the common man that has simple functions. The other of course being for the more skilled in cartography and navigation. That way anyone could find their way around Yliakum, but a few people could be popular due to their skill in finding exact locations.
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There is one thing in Unnamed post, which is true. We should see the 5km high wall, looking in the wallward direction. So you know where you are... somewhat. But if you want to reach a place, which isn't near the wall, you may have a hard time. Additionally you may be in the forest and see nothing around you. Really you can get lost. Not to mention you may be in stone labirynths or some tunels inside Yliakum.
Ok i won't care about explaining more, because you kind of ignored way too much, so you understand ;)
Starg,
The polar coors are not only fun to do, but are also practical, because you can find them out with just one tool . How are you going to find your position in cartesian coordinate system? (I believe you you know bunch of things about cartography, tell us (: ) You can tell people, go to a point 3000 meters south 4000 meters east from the center, but how are they supposed to know where exactly is it? And they need to know in what direction go too, what is another thing they don't know if you won't tell how they finds it out where they are. :)
I don't know why you complicated so much giving direction in polar coords system. I try to desipher what you made sound complicated. "Right of" i take as looking in the doords direction, so wallward. There are 6 doors, one every 60o, so 4th doors will be 180o, if 1st gate is at 0o. (0o should be north, so if the gates aren't put that perfectly, you take the zones they are in as the marker of your position, or rather its centers) So, your "bearing 5 degrees right of door 4" would mean a point 185o 3km from the Azure Sun, which you reach if you go at 30o from north direction, or you meant 30o from the edgeward direction.
So you gave not only the position of place, but also the exact direction you have to walk. Thats beter than giving only the place position, without telling where to go to reach it.
But that is only for educated people who know math - both methods. Lets keep in mind there was only a few of these in the distant past. A commoner who maybe can't afford a compass anyway, will be told to go 1 hour in the edgeward-rightwards direction and he will. He will look at the Azure sun or in the wallward direction from time to time and he will reach the destination, even if not perfectly, without any tools. He will walk along an arc if he can't figure out that he does so everytime he walk right or leftward direction, but it still isn't that bad.
Tell someone in the middle of nothing, with no compass to go south-west. I wonder what direction he pick ;).
Making a map with the introduced tools would be extremaly simple, as you just go around, make measurements and mark them on the map. When i think how deformed was medieval maps, i can't think how this could happen in Yliakum.
Of course everything this if there is magnetic field, which hopefully can show north. magic flux, if only it show the same direction no matter where you are in Yliakum, then fine. The Azure Sun is extremaly magical by itself, so i suppose someone would figure out a way to find out where it is located, although if there comes about magic, it is mostly speculating ;)
Erisnas, thats the point!
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This is confusing...I'd rather stick to north south east west, but with the addition of altitude being on different levels of Yliakum. For example, North 6 (6th level), or south 4 (4th level), or something of the sort. I haven't even studied into levels but I think this would be a pretty simple way of doing things. =/
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Go ahead, noone is stopping you. For those who are capable of the more expanded understanding, they will also know theyr location, what you never find out with simple NSWE. But you should know also the directions in relation to the Crystal, in case a NPC describe direction in this way. Noone ask you to do any math though.
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Maybe it's possible to make specific types of magic fields, which attract weakly but over long distances. Except maybe there are more than two varieties. Maybe there are six. Each bronze door could have the spell cast on it, so that it radiates that field. So if you need to find direction, you just cast a spell that points to whichever door. That would be a little complex for using with a coordinate system because the doors are close enough that the fields aren't uniform, but it would work for "go towards such and such door". Also, comparing all the angles would give you elevation, me thinks. I haven't thunk hard yet though, but it seems like if you compared all six "vertical" angles and all six "horizontal" angles, and you know the exact positions of all six doors (assuming they aren't perfectly level and perfectly spaced), you could do some math to know exactly where you are. But that's probably pretty complicated unless you set up some expensive machinery to do it with gears and stuff (possible, but ridiculously complex). Of course, you only need three of the doors to have the spell, not all six. That simplifies things a little.
No, I haven't worked on the models yet. I got inducted onto the team to work on Puppy Linux version 3.03, so I wound up devoting the time I was going to spend modeling to working on my boot-splash program instead. I'll get these things finished eventually, but don't anybody hold their breath (excepting the Kran, I guess).
Oh, and to the dude who thought this was all stupid, it's not just about getting lost. Somebody will inevitably need precise maps (When building an aqueduct between cities, or a road, or planning a tunnel where you can't see jack, just eyeballing it doesn't cut it). For precise maps, you need precise instruments to determine your exact position in a coordinate system.
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and you know the exact positions of all six doors
Sorry, there are seven sets. They aren't perfectly spaced, but they're all on the Dome (first level.)
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Maybe there are six coordinates relating to the six ways: Crystal and Dark are up and down, the other four correspond to NSEW. This would allow you to calculate your position magically by the relative strengths of the ways. I am standing at the North Pole so my Blue way rules! but my Red is practically non-existent.
If you look at this (http://www.planeshift.it/guide/images/guide/magic/ways.png) it looks very much like the coordinate axes xyz so it is not too far-fetched but it is probably just coincidental.
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I really like all the ideas, however, I don't think we would want to scare newbies... It is already hard for them to get used to the whole world, so they ask for directions then the person says "Oh, easy, just go wallward for 45 meters until you reach an angle with the sun of 56.2680395° then turn left. Trust me, you can't miss it!"
Here is my thought for directions. Of course, I am using the classic NSWE names, however, the names could be changed. Also, when I refer to the "Distance", it would be the the distance from the center.
NORTH: Moving clockwise along a Distance
SOUTH: Moving anti-clockwise along a Distance
EAST: Moving towards the center
WEST: Moving away from the center
ALTITUDE: The distance from the bottom of the stalactite
To give a precise coordinate, we would have a degree, then a Distance then an altitude. So for hydlaa, it might be 167,245,3058. Which would mean that it is at the 167th degree (where is 0°, to decide), 245m from the center and 3058m from the base of the stalactite. Then, we could be even more precise by having decimals. e.g. Hydlaa Library: 169.45,246.86,3051.34. Of course, this can even work in the Labyrinths (assuming that people actually have been able to map the inside). We would just have some possible sub-zero altitudes and some very big distances.
An advantage of this is that on a small scale (for example on the scale of a town), the N-S lines would not be curved and then regions can be easily mapped.
Another advantage is that having four coordinates, this can easily correspond to the four sides of a map. If we had system with 6 or 7 coordinates, this would be fairly inconvenient to display on a small scale.
Of course, for maps covering large areas, either the map will have to be distorted (like the current rectangular maps of the earth) or drawn like half-circles or circles.
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"Oh, easy, just go wallward for 45 meters until you reach an angle with the sun of 56.2680395° ...
but you do realise, that going wallward direction your angle doesn't change in the slightest? Unless you were going to tell, "go 45 meters in the 56.2680395° direction from the point you stand on. " what is nonsense, because i don't have a frakking idea what tool would give you so precise number. The best you can get is 56,5o if you really wish to look beetwen the scale lines.
What is equal to Wallward-Rightward if you take Wallward in your actual spot as 0o
Or it is equal to N-E direction btw if you take N as 0o. In real you tell people to go 56.2680395o or rather you tell them to go N-E for instance?
In short, you people who want to see things complicated, try looking at the from simple perspective.
Another thing is if one start a character, and he know $@#& about the setting the only option for him is to roleplay a peasant who just left his village in search of adventure. One may roleplay someone who is going to be cartographer if he as player knows null about the in-game cartographing. And if people start giving someone (newbie) directig with angles and numbers, no wonder he won't understand. And if they continue doing so, it is their way of roleplaying, playing smartass, who don't eve think about helping a 'dump' farmer. He was playing in farmer all his life till got bored. But he still knows nothing about anothing else. He has to learn.
As for attitude idea, i don't see a point i giving it, while showing direction. (if you want to give it so extremaly precise, your free will, but there is no reason most of the time. ) All you need to know is on what level is the place you are going, ad you instantly know its ~height. Further, I don't think one should count the height from bottom. One should count it from the Crystal to the bottom. The lower, the bigger the value. Simly from practical reasons.
As for distorting the maps, there is no reason at all for doing so. Because we don't have there globe --> surface problem. We have surface into surface, so i don't know what distortion you are trying to introduce.
And you can't say that East is equal to Edgeward and West equal to Wallward, because it is correct only when North direction is perpendicular to line covering Edgeward and Wallward directions on the left side of the Crystal, when you look in the true north direction. Every instance, beside that, these directions are completly unrelated.
Did you read the thread carefully? because somehow as you see above, i can't see sense in most of your reasoning.
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And you can't say that East is equal to Edgeward and West equal to Wallward, because it is correct only when North direction is perpendicular to line covering Edgeward and Wallward directions on the left side of the Crystal, when you look in the true north direction. Every instance, beside that, these directions are completly unrelated.
I think the idea was more that in general people would give directions like, "go 1 km clockwise and .25 wallward", but just replacing clockwise/counter-clockwise and wallward/edgeward with east/west and north/south. So then north/south/east/west would become relative directions based on your position around the center rather than "absolute" directions like they are on Earth.
If you ask me, I think the basic idea makes perfect sense, but that using the names north/south/east/west would just add confusion. Either use fitting names similar to clockwise and wallward, or use unique Yliakian names.
The whole angles thing is mainly for instruments and maps, and precise directions. Average people would skip the angles and use distances, "automatically" adjusting for curvature when traveling over longer distances out of experience.
And as for seven doors, great. Seven is a prime example of a lucky number. :)
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... but just replacing clockwise/counter-clockwise and wallward/edgeward with east/west and north/south. So then north/south/east/west would become relative directions based on your position around the center rather than "absolute" directions like they are on Earth.
But what if we really have magnetic field? I believe people would take advantage of that, as i believe that at least one race, which arrived to Yliakum, developed compass in the world they came from. especially that these directions are already used by NPCs.
Then, how would you call these directions? That was my point.
Unless Josellis assumed there is no magnetic field and the Crystal is the only way of showing direction with use of a device.
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Which is why I said this:
If you ask me, I think the basic idea makes perfect sense, but that using the names north/south/east/west would just add confusion.
Thinking about it, another thing the average Joe could have, if people did use angles somewhat, is a basic conversion plate. I just make that up, probably could be named better. Anyways, it would be a pie shaped thing, covering maybe 45 degrees or so. It could have arcs along it at set distances from the point. There would be a scale, so that one cm away from the point is like 10 km in reality. The arcs lengths would be marked appropriately. Then there could be straight-line paths covering various angles, also marked. It could also have extra arcs showing the average inner-radius of each level, or just the level it's made for, to help with visualization.
People who deal with the angles often would memorize enough of the conversions to make fairly accurate estimations, but this way the average Joe would have something to just look at to say, "Oh, 45 degrees at 50 km is about 38km, or about 39 if I follow the curve..." Following the curve would usually only matter along the wall or the edge, in which case it would be nice to have those distances. Also, it could easily be incorporated into some other device to cut down on any added bulk you'd have to be carrying. Just have it printed on the back of a map or something (by print, I don't mean with a laser printer. I'm talking block-printing or stenciled or what-not)
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If there is a magnitic field, wouldn't it be from the rest of the world around Yliakum? Unless it is a magical field which would make much more sense in the setting.
I also read somewhere that compasses won't go ingame (where I can't remember), but if this is true, then there can't be any tools to show the nomorthern and southern magnetics poles. If there were magical poles, then there might be some magical spell which might be able to give the ability to the person to give the direction of crystal and dark magic poles.
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Alright, the degrees to distances conversion plate. For the first level. It obviously is going to be differet for other levels as everyone knows ;P.
If believe the book, and make some assumptions:
Let's say the distance from Azyre Sun to the surface, which includes the outer curcumference of first level is equal to 10km
And the Inner curcumgerence could be 1km lower for instance
then the conversion plate looks like this:
showing the radius from 15km to 25km as the book say. The scale is every 500m. So two (the dark and lighter rectangles give 1km) So you can say you radius in exactness to 500m. Not very precise it turned out. One could probably draw the rectangles with exactness to 100m, with the compass outer ring as you see there:
(http://crimsonorder.freepgs.com/things/compasskm.png)
And some table i did in excel, for those, who didn't get it yet ;P Even though i tried to be clear as much as possible.
| radius | height | bottom interval | tan(zeta) | upper interval | angle | angle hop |
| | 11050 | | | | | |
| 15000 | 11000 | 0.736666667 | 0.733333333 | 0.73 | 36.24+0.10°-0.10° | 1.02 |
| 15500 | 10950 | 0.709677419 | 0.706451613 | 0.703225806 | 35.22+0.10°-0.10° | 0.97 |
| 16000 | 10900 | 0.684375 | 0.68125 | 0.678125 | 34.25+0.10°-0.10° | 0.95 |
| 16500 | 10850 | 0.660606061 | 0.657575758 | 0.654545455 | 33.3+0.10°-0.10° | 0.89 |
| 17000 | 10800 | 0.638235294 | 0.635294118 | 0.632352941 | 32.41+0.10°-0.10° | 0.87 |
| 17500 | 10750 | 0.617142857 | 0.614285714 | 0.611428571 | 31.54+0.10°-0.10° | 0.83 |
| 18000 | 10700 | 0.597222222 | 0.594444444 | 0.591666667 | 30.71+0.10°-0.10° | 0.82 |
| 18500 | 10650 | 0.578378378 | 0.575675676 | 0.572972973 | 29.89+0.10°-0.10° | 0.78 |
| 19000 | 10600 | 0.560526316 | 0.557894737 | 0.555263158 | 29.11+0.10°-0.10° | 0.7 |
| 19500 | 10550 | 0.543589744 | 0.541025641 | 0.538461538 | 28.41+0.10°-0.10° | 0.72 |
| 20000 | 10500 | 0.5275 | 0.525 | 0.5225 | 27.69+0.10°-0.10° | 0.72 |
| 20500 | 10450 | 0.512195122 | 0.509756098 | 0.507317073 | 26.97+0.10°-0.10° | 0.64 |
| 21000 | 10400 | 0.497619048 | 0.495238095 | 0.492857143 | 26.33+0.10°-0.10° | 0.65 |
| 21500 | 10350 | 0.48372093 | 0.481395349 | 0.479069767 | 25.68+0.10°-0.10° | 0.61 |
| 22000 | 10300 | 0.470454545 | 0.468181818 | 0.465909091 | 25.07+0.10°-0.10° | 0.61 |
| 22500 | 10250 | 0.457777778 | 0.455555556 | 0.453333333 | 24.46+0.10°-0.10° | 0.57 |
| 23000 | 10200 | 0.445652174 | 0.443478261 | 0.441304348 | 23.89+0.10°-0.10° | 0.58 |
| 23500 | 10150 | 0.434042553 | 0.431914894 | 0.429787234 | 23.31+0.10°-0.10° | 0.53 |
| 24000 | 10100 | 0.422916667 | 0.420833333 | 0.41875 | 22.78+0.10°-0.10° | 0.49 |
| 24500 | 10050 | 0.412244898 | 0.410204082 | 0.408163265 | 22.29+0.10°-0.10° | 0.49 |
| 25000 | 10000 | 0.402 | 0.4 | 0.398 | 21.8+0.10°-0.10° | ~0.48 |
| | 9950 | | | | | |
Since each level is hilly, looking though current PS maps, i assumed that there will be no place, which goes higher than 50m above the avarage and no lower than 50m. This give 100m, though the zone i been checking has diference of 70m at most ;>
You bored yet? ;P
Because of that i added bottom and upper intervals, but it proven, that the height fluctuations don't have much effect on finding out your radius, basing on the avarage height and the vertical angle.
Tan(zeta) is height/radius
angle hop is the angle 'i'-'i+1'
hmm
If there is a magnitic field, wouldn't it be from the rest of the world around Yliakum? Unless it is a magical field which would make much more sense in the setting.
What are you saying by that? i don't see conclussion. :s
Explain maybe ? :)
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Wow, first of all I must say that after 4 pages of this discussion, I commend all of you that have put forth the effort to come up with these mathmatically and scientifically correct methods of determining and communicating direction in a world set along a ring shaped terrain.
That being said, I agree with those that have expressed concern over these methods. They are entirely too complicated and confusing. Newcomers to Yliakum will not understand them and will abandon those directions (or worse, abandon the game) for more simple explanations.
I do understand the issues with only using directions based on NSEW, as they are overly simple and cause problems with movement (like when technically one town my be directly SW of another, only it happens to be on the opposite side of the ring!). NSEW still has its place on a small scale, such as within a town/region. I don't see the need, however, for going to the opposite extreme and introducing complicated coordinate systems.
Currently, most people (in RL and in-game) use landmarks for traveling between two places. "Go out the east gate and continue through the first canyon. Go up over the hill on your right and you will see a group of consumers. Just past them is the cave you are looking for." To me, and apparently many others, that is simple and works as it is very descriptive, even if a bit wordy. Accoring to the discussions here, the revised directions would be "Go out of the clockwise gate and head 200 meters. Turn edgeword for 112 meters and you will find the cave you seek.". That is much more complicated and is just about as wordy. I won't even go into what the description would look like using degrees and such nonesense. :P
I think that we should stick with NSEW when used on a small scale, such as a particular town or region, and then adopt the clockwise/counter-clockwise/wallward/edgewood when describing long distances.
I.E. In Hydlaa, Harnquist is just south of the plaza fountain, and the arena even further south of that. Ojaveda can be found about half way between the wall and edge, by leaving the east gate of Hydlaa and traveling in a clockwise direction.
Now of course these new directions would be greatly aided with a simple compass (magical or otherwise) that gives your location around the ring. It wouldn't need to tell you height, as you should know which level you are on by the terrain, people and other surroundings (not to mention that you travelled there!). One problem we face without the compass is that I have yet to see the edge of the level and look up/down into the level above/below. Also, I'm not sure that just because I come up against a great mountain that appears impassable, that I am actually at the "wall" of the current level. I'm sure the edgeward part of this is intentional by the devs as we don't currently have access to multiple levels, but the point still stands.
So for those of you who now think I don't know what I want ;D, here is the executive summary.
Keep NSEW for small scale (town, region) and use clockwise/counter-clockwise/edgeward/wallward for long distances between two points. The use of relative positions can still be used where appropriate and according to personal preference. Finally add a simple compass, in the shape of a ring (you can make it magical, polarized, magnetic, etc) that shows your current position, both around the ring and between the edge and the wall. The ring should still have a NSEW on it, otherwise you would be totally lost if you rotated the ring. ;) The compass would not need to, and in my opinion should not, show height, as distance around a ring and edgeward/wallward is all relative to the level you are on.
Just my two trias.
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When complaining about the idea being to complicated for newbies, see my second post on this page. Noone is forced to know everyhing. Not to mention that most people who start playing, don't even realise about the shape of the world they play in.
Also to explain to all, who hope for a compass icon in corner of their screen to show there where they are. A compass spoken about in this thread is an actual item, which
a) you need to get (expensive from its nature, so don't expect everyone to have one, especially that it looks like many would find it to complicated and never learn how to use it. It is fine, it is good, it shows the level of knowledge of the late mediaval people^^)
b) you need to use, so stop by and see what it show. Hide or move from your sight and walk again.
Noone stop people from pointing a direction in various ways! Noone ever! People are free to show ther directions as they wish. Only they will find themselves helples in the middle of nowhere, lost, with noone to help, unable to recognize any landmarks. With the described compass, if you actually cared to learn how to use it, you can't really get lost (in Yliakum!).
I want to make it clear, so that no one say the idea is complicated again, without repeating the same arguments. Noone would be forced to use it! And Edge... Wall... Right, Leftward aren't complicated at all. They are much alike like NSWE. But no wonder they sound unusual to people who used NSWE all their life long.
But remember, in Yliakum, you RP someone else than you, you should try to RP that person as well as you can, and learning the enviroment he/she live in.
Saying that, I have no idea why you want to use NSWE on short distances :s
(http://crimsonorder.freepgs.com/things/NSWE-EWRL.png)
It is as simple as saying Harnquist is edgeward from fountain, arena further in that direction. You leave to Ojaveda, by going through Leftward Hydlaa gate.
And you are another one who complicate things and appearently didn't get the discussion there right. By saying "Go out of the clockwise gate and head 200 meters. Turn edgeword for 112 meters and you will find the cave you seek." this sounds very similiar to Go out through east gate, head 200m, turn south, walk 112 m and there is your cave. Really...bah.
It wouldn't need to tell you height
Lol, if you know how to make a compas show your actual height, I be glad to hear, but for now you are the only one who thinks the compass can show height (actual working method). You must think so in the first place, if you think it doesn't need to show it.
Finally add a simple compass, in the shape of a ring
You need to describe how it works, because otherwise we don't know what you are talking about. Only guessing
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Yep. Things are only complicated when you try to calculate your precise (or therabouts) location, which is where all the talk about angles comes in. Few people would actually need to do that. I mean, how many people know their coordinates in latitude and longitude here on Earth? That's the equivalent to what the more complex discussions have been involving. For that matter, calculating your exact position in Yliakum is much simpler than trying to calculate your exact position in a similarly sized area of Earth, due to the big honking landmarks.
Most people would use either landmark based directions, or wallward/edgeward type directions. Just like in real life, where you hardly ever give directions in the forum of latitude/longitude. But they're still important to have for mapping purposes and large scale directions in, say, a military setting.
As far as knowing which way is wallward and being confused about it, same goes for north. On Earth, I can just look at the sun to figure out which way is which (really, some of the buffoons out there who don't know which window looks north make me ashamed to be human...). Well, when you're in a big cave, you can use cave formations to tell which end is the north end, assuming there are large enough formations to see them from 40+ km away (~24 MILES)!
The near wall, on the other hand, would be less than half the distance away. So knowing wallward would be much easier than knowing north, and as with north, the other three directions come automatically once you know the first. Also, think about this practically. You live in a place where there's a big honking wall on one horizon. You would naturally say, "oh, that town is off toward the wall, veering a little to the right". That's far more natural than something based off an invisible magnetic field. Sure, the directions would change as you go around the loop, but big deal. Big cities or bronze doors could be used as reference points when that becomes an issue. For most people, it wouldn't even matter. How many people in the real world actually care about the fact that true north isn't the same as magnetic north, and that the amount it's different by actually changes if they travel too far east or west? Not the average person, that's for sure.
Also, because I'm naturally paranoid, I have to comment on this:
you should know which level you are on by the terrain, people and other surroundings (not to mention that you traveled there!)
Who says I traveled there? Maybe someone drugged me, and when I woke up I was on a completely different level. But anyways, elevation is only important for finding your distance out from the axis of the stalactite, which only matters if you're using the coordinate system. In which case, you would need the actual elevation to get precise numbers, though you could estimate simply based on your level.