PlaneShift
Support => Technical Help: IN GAME bugs (after loading world) => Topic started by: Ver on October 12, 2007, 08:39:06 pm
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Is this quest broken?
I've given the seven drinks to Crosh Dunehammer, and when asked if I knew who "Zak" is, I answered no. Then he mumbles a bit more and and says "I just heard something". He says nothing more. I've tried every answer to this cliffhanger-type statement I could think of, including "what did you hear" and "what is it"? The only answer he recognizes is "no", which just makes him re-loop the same statement.
The quest isn't finished, so there must be something left to do. It seems that this is a case of poor storytelling. I have asked a couple of players how they got through this, and they told me they got stuck at the same part.
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Is this quest broken?
No.
It just requires more thinking than most quests, in that answers were purposely not spoonfed to you.
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It just requires more thinking than most quests, in that answers were purposely not spoonfed to you.
I'm going to tell it like I feel it this time.
You know, Planeshift's quests are unique among MMOs in this way. In other MMOs, the quests have great direction, and the few that you can't figure out can be looked up in a FAQ or strategy guide. In Planeshift, not only do some quests like Crosh's leave you completely clueless with no idea of how to continue, there's also no FAQs.
I'm sorry devs, but if there's no indication whatsoever of how I should answer an NPC from the context of the story, you're practically expecting me to be a superhuman if you think I can somehow solve it on my own.
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Boo hoo.
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What jeraphon is trying to say is . . .
well he said what he meant.
The answer is there for you, read your logs and please do not post the results of solve this for your friends, you CAN solve this ver.
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And there -is- a guide/FAQ on how to handle the common beginner's errors in quests (and just about anything else in-game) here (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=29723.0). :detective: And here! (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=29804.0)
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Did you make sure to actually read what the NPC(s) said?
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I'm having a problem with this quest as well...
I got the gist of it (So I thought) but before i could finish reading i went to click on him and he didn't come
into focus... So I basically just stepped off the bridge and fell to my death :-). If anyone can post what he said...
it would be appreciated. The oddest part is that I don't remember accepting the quest but it is on my list.
O well...
Thanks in advance.
*edit*
Alright... nevermind. I figured it out ... but that was realllllly dumb. Sorry to whoever was responsible for it.
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I have to say that was one of the more interesting quests I've done. Yes, it was a bit frustrating, but in a fun way. I could see where people might not see it that way. But that was by far the longest conversation I've ever had with an NPC. :thumbup:
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Well, this quest still has problems as written. Whether or not you should be able to easily figure out what Crosh wants you to say if you reply "No" to his question as to whether you have seen "that creepy fellow that lurks around down there," he should not be clueless if you answer "Yes" because you have, in fact, seen that fellow. It wasn't until I read a walk-through that I figured out that the required answer was "No" and not merely that Crosh wanted some other affirmative answer instead of "Yes," the creepy fellow's name, etc. Now, you might prefer to believe that I am simply stupid, but I think the quest could be improved without a lot of effort and condescending crap.
Now, I freely admit that the quest dialogs have been improved over the last couple of years, but there are some things that would help make them better. It helps to realize the extremely limited vocabulary and recognized phrases complicates things more than they need to be. Frankly, the original text adventure, The Colossal Cave, back in the 1970's was easier to communicate with than many of the PlaneShift NPCs have been. Granted, you knew then that you were limited to a typical maximum of two words per statement usually in a verb-object form and PlaneShift tries to provide for "richer" expressions in many cases. However, the inconsistency is often a problem in it's own right. So, some suggestions:
If you want players to recite lines in a script, give us a way to learn our lines. Better yet, don't require players to recite lines in your NPC script just so we can play along in your production. Let us simply watch if you aren't prepared for reasonable variation in response to your NPC.
If your NPC asks questions that can be answered positively or negatively, have it act appropriately to both responses. For example, Crosh should not require you to lie just to complete the quest.
If you require specific responses, try to ensure that the specific response can be clearly determined or that it comes from selecting a response from an explicit list. However, this will always be difficult to get right when the response is not simply "yes," "no," a number, etc. It is a major pain that some dialogs require a noun in the response with one or more specific adjectives while other dialogs require you to omit any adjectives used by some other NPC in the quest even if those adjectives seem necessary to distinguish from a more generic question or comment (e.g. trying to get the Hydlaa gem cutter to perform a specific service). If you want to keep the illusion of more open-ended dialogs, then perhaps the server should log responses to non-trivial questions (i.e. "marked" questions of some sort) so that the quest maintainers can see the range of answers given by players. This would enable the maintainers to ensure that the NPC can accept one of a set of "correct" responses that players are likely to give. In fact, this feature would be very helpful in those cases where you expect a player to answer a riddle, both to ensure that you credit most, if not all, "correct" responses and to help guide the maintainer in refining the riddle itself when player answers indicate that it may be necessary.
For a game with an emphasis on role playing, the NPC dialogs are one of the things most likely to detract from that goal, either because of the dialogs themselves or because of the insistence that the players solicit help in-game from other players rather than use other out-of-band channels. Sure, if the questions can be phrased along the lines of "where is..." and "who does...", NPC dialog related questions can be "role-played." However, the nature of the problems people have with the quests and dialog usually end up with lots of in-game "tell" dialogs (if people shift over) or simply a lot of "out-of-character" conversations with most of the discussion in a given area delimited by brackets. (Note that this is a problem with questions about game mechanics as well. It is one thing to explain in character what materials may be needed to craft something or to explain who provides the necessary training and tools, it is another to try to explain exactly how something like steel is actually crafted in PlaneShift when there is, at best, a tenuous relationship between the physics and engineering of Yliakin and our own universe.) Keeping players in character is hard enough without requiring them to engage in out-of-character discussions in-game rather than in the forums or the chat channel.
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Walkthrough, you say? Link please. :detective:
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In another thread just last one someone complained that the triggers were too easy.
We can't win . . .
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Come on Xilly Rabbit, you only lose if they do not talk about it at all!
That link Jer, is likely on some guild page. It might be the 4th comment on this page (http://www.happypenguin.org/show?PlaneShift&start=10) you might ask them to do something about it. BTW it appears to have an ip address associated with it.
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One thing I will say without jumping into the whole conversation. Quests are improving and we are working on older ones. It just takes time. Patience is a virtue.
Also, I've asked and asked for people to send me things (PM, e-mail) that they think are odd. Some I can use, some I cannot, and some I can get to quicker than others, but I do keep them all and work on them as I can.
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Walkthrough, you say? Link please. :detective:
I am sure you can use Google as well as I can...
*edit*
In another thread just last one someone complained that the triggers were too easy.
We can't win . . .
The triggers? So, the "fun" part of the quests is meant to be divining the specific keywords or phrases the author had in mind? Well, I suppose that could be considered entertaining as some sort of a word puzzle, but it doesn't seem like much of a fit with a virtual world intended as a stage for role playing.
People in the real world may often misunderstand us, but outside of challenge-response at a sentry point on a battlefield or, possibly, some spy recognition exchange, we usually expect a little more flexibility in the interest of actual communication. While PlaneShift is unlikely to ever offer the versatility we experience in real life, it seems to me that NPC dialog ought to strive more for communication rather than mind reading. Moreover, I think that is the intent, but sometimes the report and response about particular problems is, well, on different tangents... Yes, players are sometimes stupid, but sometimes they may just be pointing out a problem in a quest with little to no useful information other than their confusion over the dialog. That should be a reasonable starting point for a review when more than one complaint is made about a given quest. After all, the players generally don't have the entire quest script available to them to provide context or to help them focus their point.
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People in the real world may often misunderstand us, but outside of challenge-response at a sentry point on a battlefield or, possibly, some spy recognition exchange, we usually expect a little more flexibility in the interest of actual communication. While PlaneShift is unlikely to ever offer the versatility we experience in real life, it seems to me that NPC dialog ought to strive more for communication rather than mind reading. Moreover, I think that is the intent, but sometimes the report and response about particular problems is, well, on different tangents... Yes, players are sometimes stupid, but sometimes they may just be pointing out a problem in a quest with little to no useful information other than their confusion over the dialog. That should be a reasonable starting point for a review when more than one complaint is made about a given quest. After all, the players generally don't have the entire quest script available to them to provide context or to help them focus their point.
Did you just skim over the part where we offer help and request feed back from players? Please stop painting the "oh, we don't help" picture and take the time to do what is asked to help. Sure you've posted here, but I've YET to get an e-mail or PM from you with anything I can hold on to and work on.
If you've looked around you might have noticed things like this (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=31437.msg367537#msg367537) or this (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=32110.msg368818#msg368818)....
Soo...that being said...if you want to help....
PM me (private message not a public post) the following information:
1) Name of the quest.
2) What you were trying to answer.
3) What you tried that did not work.
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Also in almost all cases (not this one) the npc gives you the next trigger VERBATIM in what they say.
Really when you figure out this quest, you will feel kinda silly ;).
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Did you just skim over the part where we offer help and request feed back from players? Please stop painting the "oh, we don't help" picture and take the time to do what is asked to help. Sure you've posted here, but I've YET to get an e-mail or PM from you with anything I can hold on to and work on.
I did not skim over the offer to help or the request for feedback though I will admit to intentionally providing feedback through the forum. I have a personal preference for open discussion. My apologies if you think I am painting an "oh, we don't help" picture. That isn't my intention nor is it something I have a reason to believe from my own experience. In any case, you will not receive a PM from me simply because I am "not allowed to send personal messages" according to the forum software. As for email, I will resort to that if I am unable to PM in the near future.
In the meantime, the specific point I was making about the "Drinks in the Deep" quest was described in my original post. To recap, Crosh asks you ** *accept that or any other affirmative response ***. The quest dialog can only be completed if the player replies "[removed by Mod]" The requested fix is for Crosh to provide a reasonable response to "***" and then complete the quest as usual. Otherwise, the player may be forced to "**" just to complete the quest.
If I am eventually able to PM, I will send more information about other quests such as the "Govell Mihdren Needs Tattoo Ink" quest I alluded to previously. However, I do believe there was at least some generally constructive criticism in my original post that should at least be considered when revisiting quests. If nothing else, consider implementing the log of player responses so that you can refine the dialogs to work with reasonable entries from actual players rather than relying solely on the author to think of the acceptable responses. Preferably, the quest author would be able to tag specific player inputs to log. I realize that it is possible that the PlaneShift developers may be using third-party code for the NPC dialogs and therefore implementing such a mechanism would effectively be impossible. However, if that is not the case, it would be a far more effective way to gather that kind of information than relying on players to report anything comparable though the forums, PMs, or the bug tracker.
*edit*
Also in almost all cases (not this one) the npc gives you the next trigger VERBATIM in what they say.
Really when you figure out this quest, you will feel kinda silly ;).
Yes, well, I did figure out my problem with the quest and it was to just say "***." However, the almost unrecognizable corpse of the horse I have been beating will attest to my having made that point originally.
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O.K. The preceding has been edited with what I believe is the intent to remove "spoilers." If there were other reasons, I think it best that the moderator explain his or her intent rather than have me characterize it...
In any case, this particular quest has what is in fact a very minor problem, but it is a problem nonetheless. There is no puzzle or clever trick involved that might spoil the experience of another player if revealed. The problem is that a single question has two very simple and equally correct responses depending on the actual experience of the player. By the time the question is asked, the player has already performed all of the actions requested by the NPC and the NPC has already given the player his reward. What remains is a bit of dialog and the final completion of the quest. Of course, there are the experience points awarded at the completion of the quest, but they are not actually given by the NPC. However, giving one response truthfully leaves the quest in an incomplete state with no indication of how to conclude it. Aside from the experience points, there are no negative consequences to the player except that the quest remains in the player's active list. This can be corrected by providing Crosh with a simple response appropriate to the currently unrecognized alternative response and then allowing the quest to terminate normally.
Until the quest is modified, is there any reason to not leave intact in these forums the information that the player should type answer A instead of answer B just to complete the quest even though the player would naturally reply B given the appropriate experience and the fact that Crosh should have no problem accepting either answer? After all, "spoilers" are things that would negatively impact the enjoyment of other players, not work-arounds to game play problems. Granted, this is very minor and probably does not impact most players trying to complete the quest. I do not expect it to be corrected any time soon because it is low priority. However, I would appreciate an explanation of the heavy-handed editing of the already vague problem description above and the apparent desire to keep this trivial problem out of public view. (By the way, I don't mean to imply anything conspiratorial. So far as I can tell, the problem reporting mechanism and the editing of my problem description are driven by a desire for "spoiler" prevention. Is that right, or is there something else at play?)
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O.K. The preceding has been edited with what I believe is the intent to remove "spoilers." If there were other reasons, I think it best that the moderator explain his or her intent rather than have me characterize it...
As my edit included my usual statement Edited to remove spoilers which you chose to remove, there is no reason apart from contrariness to imply other reasons or attempt to characterise it
....However, I would appreciate an explanation of the heavy-handed editing of the already vague problem description above and the apparent desire to keep this trivial problem out of public view. (By the way, I don't mean to imply anything conspiratorial. So far as I can tell, the problem reporting mechanism and the editing of my problem description are driven by a desire for "spoiler" prevention. Is that right, or is there something else at play?)
You say you don't wish to imply something conspiratorial then go on to imply exactly that, an explanation was given which you deleted, the editing was inline with all my previous edits and was certainly not "heavy handed" as you allege, if that was the case I would have just deleted the whole post (a far easier option for me) to answer your second point if I wanted to keep this trivial problem out of public view I would have deleted the entire thread.
Rizin has given you several options to discuss this including forum PM (which due to a pornspam problem users are restricted until having made 10 posts) email, IRC via #planeshift or /query and of course there is the ultimate way to effect changes, join the settings team
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As my edit included my usual statement Edited to remove spoilers which you chose to remove, there is no reason apart from contrariness to imply other reasons or attempt to characterise it
All I did was hit "Modify" and then append to the post leaving all previous edits unchanged. I do not know what happened to your standard comment, but I suppose I may have accidentally deleted it, though I don't know how. It certainly was not intentional.
....However, I would appreciate an explanation of the heavy-handed editing of the already vague problem description above and the apparent desire to keep this trivial problem out of public view. (By the way, I don't mean to imply anything conspiratorial. So far as I can tell, the problem reporting mechanism and the editing of my problem description are driven by a desire for "spoiler" prevention. Is that right, or is there something else at play?)
You say you don't wish to imply something conspiratorial then go on to imply exactly that, an explanation was given which you deleted, the editing was inline with all my previous edits and was certainly not "heavy handed" as you allege, if that was the case I would have just deleted the whole post (a far easier option for me) to answer your second point if I wanted to keep this trivial problem out of public view I would have deleted the entire thread.
No implication was intended; however, the editing still seems heavy-handed and a bit pointless because you did not also edit previous posts in this thread with the same information. For example, saying that a player has to "lie" to this particular question asked by Crosh is hardly a hint or spoiler. It is just another way of reiterating the point that the quest should handle both possible answers because neither the required answer nor the unrecognized answer have any practical impact on the quest other than the unrecognized answer leaves the quest laying around in your "uncompleted" quests list. Frankly, none of the other information are spoilers either. At least, I can offer a simple fix. The other impression a player could have is that the quest was simply bugged and therefore unable to complete normally. Fortunately, that is not the case, and whoever takes a look at it in the future can easily fix it.
Rizin has given you several options to discuss this including forum PM (which due to a pornspam problem users are restricted until having made 10 posts) email, IRC via #planeshift or /query and of course there is the ultimate way to effect changes, join the settings team
O.K. I will not be sending an e-mail. A PM would be fine, but I won't needlessly generate posts simply to enable access. If I ever make enough posts and have another quest for which I wish to report a possible problem, I'll PM. In the meantime, I'll leave it to others to report quest problems.
Please stop trying to read between the lines. One of the reasons (besides my own personality quirks) that I have been so verbose in my posts on this minor problem and my suggestions for quests in general has been a desire to avoid misunderstandings. Obviously, I failed in that goal. Look, no criticism of or sleights to the developers, game masters, or anyone else involved with PlaneShift was intended. I just reported a trivial problem and made some suggestions that you are free to ignore and which certainly have been ignored in the responses.
Of course, I will admit to a less than helpful response to Jeraphon, but then his posts in this thread were what motivated my gratuitous use of "condescending crap" in my original post. That was clearly a poor choice on my part, but I don't think that is the only thing that has caused this exchange to spiral down the way it has.
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Please stop trying to read between the lines. One of the reasons (besides my own personality quirks) that I have been so verbose in my posts on this minor problem and my suggestions for quests in general has been a desire to avoid misunderstandings. Obviously, I failed in that goal. Look, no criticism of or sleights to the developers, game masters, or anyone else involved with PlaneShift was intended. I just reported a trivial problem and made some suggestions that you are free to ignore and which certainly have been ignored in the responses.
Dealing specifically with " I just reported a trivial problem and made some suggestions that you are free to ignore and which certainly have been ignored in the responses.".
One thing I will say without jumping into the whole conversation. Quests are improving and we are working on older ones. It just takes time. Patience is a virtue.
Also, I've asked and asked for people to send me things (PM, e-mail) that they think are odd. Some I can use, some I cannot, and some I can get to quicker than others, but I do keep them all and work on them as I can.
Did you just skim over the part where we offer help and request feed back from players? Please stop painting the "oh, we don't help" picture and take the time to do what is asked to help. Sure you've posted here, but I've YET to get an e-mail or PM from you with anything I can hold on to and work on.
If you've looked around you might have noticed things like this (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=31437.msg367537#msg367537) or this (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=32110.msg368818#msg368818)....
Soo...that being said...if you want to help....
PM me (private message not a public post) the following information:
1) Name of the quest.
2) What you were trying to answer.
3) What you tried that did not work.
Rizin has given you several options to discuss this including forum PM (which due to a pornspam problem users are restricted until having made 10 posts) email, IRC via #planeshift or /query and of course there is the ultimate way to effect changes, join the settings team
No one has ignored you...
I've asked you specifically for information, you have ignored every request to provide information in the format we use it in.
Request for thread lock.
Update: Thank you, Nedward, for contacting me via IRC.