PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Maulus Octir on October 24, 2007, 03:03:27 am
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I have a question for the people of Planeshift...Riddle me this:
Can one make, in theory, the "perfect" online game? One that includes intense and involving gameplay, but is also deep, rooted in roleplaying? A tightly knit community and a massively immersing leveling and PVP system?
If you say no, why? And what then, do you expect Planeshift to become?
If you say yes, why? And TELL US HOW!!! :)
My answer, is no. It is impossible to create such a game that has these two elements. Why? Because with a massive player and leveling system you get people who "sp33k liek thiz, lol n00bz" And with roleplaying you get people who talk with their brains, not their stats.
Now, I cordially invite your flaming, blamming, and perhaps even the occasional agreement! ;)
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http://www.planeshift.it/
nuff said... noob
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*sigh*
.....people these days :P
Anyone else? :D
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maulus... you fail.... :P
PS is the best... (honestly I can't find many good mmorpgs :s )
And the IDEA of ps itself is the perfect idea... hence why its a project ;)
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I must disagree. Yes the idea of ps would be to bring about perfection in leveling and rping together and have a community that uses both. However PS, nor any other game, will ever reach that perfection. The reason why is because its simply immposible. Nothin is perfect. There will always be a flaw in the system or a few members of the community who will refuse to play by the rules.
Am I saying that PS isn't a great game or that it doesn't have a good future? No. Personally PS is still the best game I've run into where I can level when I want and find people to rp with when I feel like it. However its far from my ideal of a perfect game. Sadly I don't think anyone can create a perfect game unless they create it using their imagination in their head :P
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You make a few premises that might be flawed.
Because with a massive player and leveling system you get people who "sp33k liek thiz, lol n00bz"
Not necessarily. The only reason you get people who speak like that is the game began with that inherent culture. People who don't use leet but consider those who do cool will emulate. Create a culture that frowns on leet, and you can have all the players and levelling you want.
Also, you assume a game has to have a balance of gameplay and roleplay. That's based on a personal choice. Some don't want roleplay, and some want mostly roleplay. But there you go.
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Can one make, in theory, the "perfect" online game? One that includes intense and involving gameplay, but is also deep, rooted in roleplaying? A tightly knit community and a massively immersing leveling and PVP system?
Not at all. "Perfect" is a relative term and depends wholly on opinions. And seeing as how those change from person to person and time to time...
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In the perfect MMORPG, 99.9% of deaths would be permanent. This would annoy everyone to no end, and hence it wouldn't be perfect. So no such thing as the perfect MMORPG.
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I agree that perfect is hardly the right term. I think we should be looking more along the lines of "good" or "great" I think it is well possible to bring a balance of leveling and roleplaying together. Maybe even the occasional OOC conversation! :o I know, shocking. But look at us even now, if as much as a single "lol" gets thrown out in the plaza, we freak out. USE [][][][][][][][][]!!! I remember coming here my first time never having played another MMO. I was expecting to be laughed at, picked on, made fun of for being a n00b. But my experience was quite the opposite, I was quickly shown the difference between my character and me and how to forget that there was one! And even then when I wasn't doing ny major or epic RPs I was still roleplaying my life. As a complete and utter n00b. I think that balance will remain in PS as long as players run it.
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notting is impossible i would say.. X-/
and the combination of both gameplay with roleplay its quite possible, while technology doesnt quite give the right platform for a true immersive experience (100% virtual reality) id say things are walking on the right path
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In the perfect MMORPG, 99.9% of deaths would be permanent. This would annoy everyone to no end, and hence it wouldn't be perfect. So no such thing as the perfect MMORPG.
id say that has notting to do with it since death can just be the begining to a new world (for example death realm in planeshift)
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Gameplay will become roleplay. You will see.
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Yes, it is possible but only with a strict player admission. Filter out all the people who aren't serious about roleplaying.
Will Planeshift ever take this course? Not very likely, you'll end up with a tiny player base and I doubt the Devs want to go down that path.
Personally I'm content with Planeshift and the direction it is taking. Roleplaying is encouraged but not enforced. I give everyone in the game a chance to RP with me and would gladly teach them how to be better at it but if I find out someone has a completely different interest, I simply walk away.
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PS will be perfect once it achieves all the standards expected by its developers (will it ever?). Whether players consider it the perfect game or not is not relevant. In fact, some players will find it is the perfect game until new implementations change their favorite mechanics and then they'll fill the complain forum with "why did you change this or that?" and "you screwed up PvP" threads. When players see that the game trails off their ideal concept they grow frustrated ("now they've ruined this too...") but that is because they assume their priorities are same as the PS team (no wonder it seems like they are not doing things right).
On the other hand, the more players know about the goal in the long term, the less frustrated they'll be because then, they can either adjust their expectations to a realistic and well-informed position or leave the game if they find it is not really for them (and thus avoid waiting and waiting for something that will never come or worse, staying and witnessing how the things they like change). How can players learn more about the long term objectives? That's actually rather easy. Just ask.
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As someone the loved to role play, I cannot think of any reason that role play cannot be used in any circumstance. It might take a bit more thought, but it can be done. I think PS is as great as the people in the game. So if you are looking for perfection, I ask you to show me a perfect person and then you will have it. Though PS is fun and can be anything you want it to be. That is why is so great.
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Hmmm....after reading Dajoji's post I want to make perfectly clear that this topic was not made to bash or point out any flaws in Planeshift.
I started this so that the community might come together and discuss not only the question that I proposed, but the idea and image
as well.
In contemplating the "perfect" game perhaps we might contribute our own idea of a "perfect" game as well, and in doing so we would, I hope, be bringing into one topic some of the many ideas spread throughout this forum, and that can only help our beloved game. :D
And so, I restate my question, and add a new side to it as well:
Can one make, in theory, the "perfect" online game? One that includes intense and involving gameplay, but is also deep-rooted in roleplaying? A tightly knit community and a massively immersing leveling and PVP system?
If you say no, why?
And if you say yes, don't tell us why, tell us what it is in your head.
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Perfection is boring.
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The perfect MMORPG is just outside your door ;)
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tell us what it is in your head.
My ideal game is one that revolves around the players. Of course it has to have decent game play, intresting settings, and frequent rp. However the biggest thing I want is a game that is literally like real life in the way that what one player does can change everything. I like the idea of settings to play by but only as background history. I want a game where what a player does is just another piece of recorded history, we each can affect the world around us.
So where am I going with this? Lets say we had a game and within the game we had cruel tyrants ruling the country. I could choose join these tyrants, maybe oneday becoming an equal to them. Or maybe I could be the one who takes down the goverment itself, killing all of these evil rulers. Then who knows what will happen. Maybe I will be able to rule, maybe the other players will rebel agaisnt me, maybe the leftovers of this old kingdom will take me down. What happens in the game is left completely to the player. Maybe I'll just be a merchant all my life. They can fight their wars but I want no part of it. So I just sell my goods day by day. Maybe I'm a spy, attempting to infiltrate an enemy organization. Maybe I'm just a humble guild leader/member. I could be a bartender.
In other words I want a game that is pretty much commanded by the players who play it. There can be 2 rl years of war for power in the game and suddenly it becomes peaceful till someone is able to murder the new leader. Pretty much no rules, no limits to what you can do. Your given a setting and you play.
The perfect MMORPG is just outside your door ;)
RL works too though. However I doubt I'll plan to become an evil warlord and take over the American goverment anytime soon.
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In the perfect MMORPG, 99.9% of deaths would be permanent. This would annoy everyone to no end, and hence it wouldn't be perfect. So no such thing as the perfect MMORPG.
It's a matter of design.
If you provide players with a cliche mmorpg, then yeah. It will be annoying. But if you release a game that is yet another uninspired mmorpg, we're not talking about a good game to start with, are we?
Octir, I'm not sure what you understand by immense leveling [experience]. If building up of character system-wise, then yes. Leveling and role-play can be merged beautifully.
If you mean grinding, then perhaps there is a way. But I never tried to find it.
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Really the perfect game for everything we talk about is pen and paper role playing. Dungeons and dragons, LARP. In those games if you don't roleplay, you literally die. But the leveling is of course almost as pertinent. So how to take those ideas to a computer game? I'm not sure of that either. :)
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aslong as we dont have to pay to play in a few years this game is EXTREMLY close to perfect! O--) :thumbup: O--)
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The perfect MMORPG would require a very realistic environment and lots of Game Moderating. Perma-death of semi-perma death, GMs controlling main organizations (guard, government etc) and a strict role play policy where people would be kicked out and sent to role play guides whenever seen being incoherent or inappropriate.
I would enjoy that.
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I guess I'm not the only one having a Holodeck (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodeck) on his wishlist to Santa.. Either that, or mescaline :lol:
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I say its imposible... because even when the best MMORPG is out, it will only be the best for some time, better games will eventually be created, and ''perfect'' means there's nothing better than it.
Although PS really is the best totally free to play MMORPG ive seen so far, and one of the things i like the most of PS is that ITS MAC COMPATIBLE! which is awesome cause theres a really really really really really limited number of free mmorpgs for macs, since mac wasnt made for gaming... Aaaaanyway, i love PS :)
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The perfect MMORPG would require a very realistic environment and lots of Game Moderating. Perma-death of semi-perma death, GMs controlling main organizations (guard, government etc) and a strict role play policy where people would be kicked out and sent to role play guides whenever seen being incoherent or inappropriate.
I would enjoy that.
How would people make strong characters if there was perm death implemented?
I mean, the moment you get your character maxed, lets say you head back to town, lag, really badly... and a npc kills you. :/
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What constitutes strong would obviously change. We have a definition of smart in RL but if RL did not have death it would be different because of unlimited study time.
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What constitutes strong would obviously change. We have a definition of smart in RL but if RL did not have death it would be different because of unlimited study time.
Yeah, training would have to be super easy though, because a character's life expectancy in a video game has never been high.
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Well we are talking about the perfect MMORPG so issues with lag deaths and bugs resulting in death would be minimal. People in MMORPGs are simply too reckless. If they did not rush into every fight then the expectancy would be higher.
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The perfect MMORPG would require a very realistic environment and lots of Game Moderating. Perma-death of semi-perma death, GMs controlling main organizations (guard, government etc) and a strict role play policy where people would be kicked out and sent to role play guides whenever seen being incoherent or inappropriate.
I would enjoy that.
How would people make strong characters if there was perm death implemented?
I mean, the moment you get your character maxed, lets say you head back to town, lag, really badly... and a npc kills you. :/
Who cares about strong characters? I, for once, would love having a MMORPG where my char would really make sense, because he and I would agree about living with care.
Your choices would really count then. I couldn't care less if I would have to see three or four of my characters die on me, or if one I played for two years died against a rabid dog right after it had slain a horde of undead. The fun is about witnessing the story and being a dynamic part of it.
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How would people make strong characters if there was perm death implemented?
I mean, the moment you get your character maxed, lets say you head back to town, lag, really badly... and a npc kills you. :/
If we're talking perfect MMORPG, it's rather safe to assume it should have a strong "RP" factor. As getting strong and maxing out have nearly nothing to do with roleplaying, they can be cast aside here. Yes, character progression is an important factor in RPG, but the way most games present this doesn't really fit the initial idea. For example progression of the character isn't background to the story, but the story is background to the leveling. This represents hack&slash, not roleplaying game. Likewise, characters that start from "0" is another opening to hack&slash games. The roleplaying ones will usually provide player with decently skilled character and make it progress, but maybe only slightly (remember: background).
On the contrary, perm death opens up possibility of exploring many different characters. If game supports such situation, as opposed to pushing player into the same sort of character over and over again, then this can actually improve both gameplay and roleplaying experience. If characters don't start from "0", it won't be that annoying either. Ironically enough, perm death becomes a positive phenomenon.
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Permanent death, wouldn't that be too close to reality? Because then you have the case of Darwin's Theory of Natural selection in an MMORPG; that is the strong survive. And that's not just physically strong, but also mentally (think Roadrunner vs Wild E Coyote). Realistic, yes, but frustating for those who just happened to get killed as soon as they step out with a new character. Visualize a newbie to the game stepping out of tutorial and is killed. IF permanent death was to be established, then the skills/levels developed before the death should be transferable at least to the new character. Not sure how that would work, but it's just an idea. Another thing, since it is an RPG, there is a certain amount of care and love that is put into creating a character; ie background, history, speech pattern... should you have permanent death there is suddenly not as much care put in because well, it's gonna die and you'll have to start all over again, reducing eventually the experience of role-playing.
edit: what would be nice is a map. Not draw-your-own map...but at least a map-map of the territory (or restricted to town) where you have to add features like tavern, plaza, sewer entrance, etc yourself.
Merely my two cents :)
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I would take Warhammer, turn it into a 2D SNES (Secrets of Mana/Chrono Trigger like) graphics game where you would only play with random characters. This would spare you the need of considering levels, since there are none in Warhammer (though there is temporary EXP with which you can buy advancements in skills), it would allow for very unique characters and a dangerous and harsh enviroment with lots of chances to be exploited. It would also make progression hard, considering Warhammer is a game where characters are supposed to spend months in adventures. For that reason, we'd add a ratio of 1 day = 3 or 4 days ingame.
To consider the lack of focus GMs suffer in a MMORPG, I'd thrown in some nice functions as training dependent progression, AI NPCs with topic dialog capable of responding to hostility and friendship, group work and enviroment response. Creating a GM console that monitors different factions and what players are telling NPCs within the faction, that would allow for a GM response in case one is bored and wants to spice something up.
As an optional attribute I'd consider having only in the settings only one race, named after Sangwa (the Sangwians), lots of different factions with DE member names (like Natrina Empire and Hwnae's Band of Thieves) and a god named Bruno the Hot.
And there you have it. Sangwa's perfect Role Play game!
EDIT: About Perma Death, with good NPC systems controlling behavior within towns, the new players would only have to be concerned with alleys and isolated places. That's because only a moron would go after a new player and get killed after by a guard.
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EDIT: About Perma Death, with good NPC systems controlling behavior within towns, the new players would only have to be concerned with alleys and isolated places. That's because only a moron would go after a new player and get killed after by a guard.
Perhaps only a moron, but there are a lot of morons out there and all it takes is one to get into its head that killing new players is fun....then create another character and do it all over again!
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In a strict RPing enviroment that would be punished.
As an optional attribute I'd consider having only in the settings only one race, named after Sangwa (the Sangwians), lots of different factions with DE member names (like Natrina Empire and Hwnae's Band of Thieves) and a god named Bruno the Hot.
I second that. Except replace all instances of Bruno and Sangwa with Parallo.
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Realistic, yes, but frustating for those who just happened to get killed as soon as they step out with a new character. Visualize a newbie to the game stepping out of tutorial and is killed.
It appears to me you are visualising a half-arsed mmorpg in a thread that deals with the topic of a perfect one :P
Another thing, since it is an RPG, there is a certain amount of care and love that is put into creating a character; ie background, history, speech pattern... should you have permanent death there is suddenly not as much care put in because well, it's gonna die and you'll have to start all over again, reducing eventually the experience of role-playing.
These are merely speculations, and at that, ones that are utterly shattered by p&p games, where permanent death is but a normal thing.
Let's also bring up that system which Sangwa speaks about is also one known for extreme character lethality.
All in all, death is beautiful <3
Pity to he, who has never experienced the suspense of walking through a dungeon with half your comrades nearly dead and Game Master who begis session with "Today I'm gonna kill you all."
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Hey, I actually like the part where I keep alive. Obviously it means exploring dungeons with an adventure party that lets you stay at the tail of the group. :P
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Well sure, staying alive is fun, but it's so much more interesting to ignore your near-to-fatal wounds and do a heroic charge at the last standing enemy, while having your elven comrade shoot his bow, miss, and instead send you to ground with an arrow stuck in your back...
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...stupid elf.
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The perfect game would have to have permanent death.
Then characters could truly be heroic. Charging into the thick of battle knowing that victory is almost impossible and that your character isn't going to just reappear at home minus a few items...that would create real legends within the game.
But I think you'd have to allow players to create a new character that was maybe half as powerful as their recently deceased character, because it might become tiresome to have to keep starting at the bottom.
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EDIT: About Perma Death, with good NPC systems controlling behavior within towns, the new players would only have to be concerned with alleys and isolated places. That's because only a moron would go after a new player and get killed after by a guard.
Perhaps only a moron, but there are a lot of morons out there and all it takes is one to get into its head that killing new players is fun....then create another character and do it all over again!
Well Perma death is kind of harsh don`t you think? Severe consequences yes but permadeath....the game would run out of players fast i`m affraid . Imho i think there needs to be a sense of risk asociated with PvP interaction , lose should have serious consequences but not as far as permadeath . Losing all the equiped and inventory items for once? losing skills (lvls)? permanent consequences in relations with the NPC`s (you commited a crime in a certain town , you won`t set step in the town (or the region for that matter) without the guards rushing to kill you (again)
That would probably soon lead to (let`s assume players are able to buils towns , infrastructure, and craft every item available in game) entire player owned towns , regions , kingdoms in the (let`s asume NPC `s have a small region of influence in a very vast game map) wild unexplored lands . Let`s even go further , how about "resurection" requires someone to resurect you in a cretain ammount of time or the death is permanent . In NPC towns or regions , NPC`s will resurect you , IF they like you enogh (you`re not a criminal or such , or a declared enemy) . In the player ran regions , only owners of cerain structures , say a temple to Laanx (maybe you need a strong claim on the region in order to build one in the first place) can perform resurections
What will this lead to ?:In a NPC town , someone kills a newbie : the guards rush in , kill the agressor (permanently) and the local priests take the newbie to the altar and resurect him .
In an unclaimed land , in some forest , two players run into eachother and decide to fight : The winer can drag the loser`s corpse to a shrine in his alliance`s town (if any) and if he can do it in time , resurect the dead enemy..or he can just walk away and the loser`s death is permanent . The resurection procedure should be a lengthy and complicated ritual , so it would prevent "on the run" resurections , or even not allow resurection if there is fighting nearby (i don`t want a FPS respawn point thing )
/rant off , back to work
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I think of Isra's suggestions, the best probably banning/not allowed into certain towns should you kill someone. It's realistic and does enforce better behaviour, especially if it is an important town. Losing inventory won't work very well, without a storage ability, due to the capitalist nature of the game. If you're carrying a rather large amount of trias when you do die, and end up losing it, you may have to start from ground zero again.
Death aside, in my opinion, a perfect MMORPG would allow for development of technology. That is, creation of carts for hauling ore, encyclopedic collections (in character of course) of the different lands, perhaps cardinal points or some other form of set directions (so characters no longer have to rely on "go left" "which left?!"). Of course, it can only go so far, perhaps the gods will intervene before society gets to creating electricity and steam-powered energy. it is only logical that since the characters can read and write, that they start to record their experiences and places explored for the rest of society.
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I dont think anyone could make a perfect game in which everyone rp and goes on exiting adventures. This is because firstly people are playing together. Odviosly people are all flawed so even if 99.9% of the player base of PS was into rp and being polite (this could change depending on rp ;)) the .1% of the people not being nice and running around yelling "hahaha ur a stupd Noob!" and the like would mean the game is flawed. I think it's up to the players to encourage good growth in other players and hopfully we can all do are part and make PS a very good game.
Gameplay wise no game is perfect either because everyone prefers thier own style of game and gamplay. PS does a good job because it lets you pick your own race you like, form your own persanality and hopfully if the game has enough items and skills ( Good rp and a good imagination can make up for anything that you think is lacking ;)) and by doing this play the game how you want to play it. This allows for everyone to create thier own perfect game that suits them specifically.