PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Xillix Queen of Fools on November 01, 2007, 07:56:38 pm
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It has been troubling to me for some time and I thought I should get it out.
I think MOST guildnames in ps are very weak.
Abstract names abound!
I would make examples but people might feel attacked so I will make some examples of my own.
Defenders of Light. <--- Meaningless chain of abstractions.
Collective of Wyrms <--sounds neat, what the hell is a wyrm?
Kranbane <--- ooh it contains a yliakum word! No No No! Racism is a capitol offense.
Looking here at the list of names there are only a few that I like. Guild naming is a wonderful and vastly underused way to drive new players toward embracing the settings.
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What can we say? Too bad?
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I lay the blame squarely on games such as WOW, where 'guilds' are nothing more than glorified clubs. Most people don’t even understand what a guild actually is anymore.
And I would classify saying “Too bad” to the person who has the power to delete all guilds and make it a lot harder to make club guilds in the first place a “Bad idea.” ;)
The time of True guilds will come. Worry not.
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@ Xillix:
I wonder if you recently read The Noob Comic (http://www.thenoobcomic.com/daily/strip275.html) (top right: "Wrath of Hades" is a helpful, family oriented guild...) :D
And do you know the reason of the "guild inflation"? -- /motd ==> "Bored? Why not found a guild." (or similar...)
Technically, founding a guild is not too hard. That's fine. But ... not many guilds have a well thought purpose, history, reason. Not many guilds have something unique about them. Guilds need time and activity to establish.
What the mentioned "Server MOTD" does not tell, is: Founding a guild is more than just paying a fee and keeping members active. A guild itself is like a character. It should develop. It should define its purpose and expression. Before founding a guild, a few questions should be answered with conviction: "Is it necessary? Is it really new and unique? Will noone shout 'Oh no, not another'?"
Oh boy, I am a smartass... I know you will scold me.
You mentioned "Kranbane" ... well. "Dwarvesbane" was the start of an interesting roleplaying "event", if I may call a development over several weeks so. Expected or not, it was definitely something unique, valuable. If you think there should have been a different name for it, I can agree with you; but the idea behind is not to scold, in my opinion. Furthermore, the "event" is over.
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@ UTM:
"True guilds" - what do you mean? Guilds related to professions? Well. How many times did we try to found a guild of news reporters. How many times died this project because people said noone would be interested. Many thanks to all pessimists, you were successful. Not only once.
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I have already changed many of those screen comments I will change them all.
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It would be more informative to discuss what are interpreted as being "strong" guild names before talking about weak ones.
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Indeed. A bad teacher tells you just you are wrong; a good teacher explains how to improve. ;)
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Do you really need to be taught how to name your guild? :P
I like to think the Imperial Intelligence Agency was well-name (Bar the Imperial part...) and there are quite a few others. Your guild name should hint at what your guild does.
And no, you can't defend light, in fact, you can't even keep up with it :P
"Thieves of Yliakum" would be the best named guild out there, in my opinion.
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In my opinion, some of the present and "older" guilds are setting a standard most new guilds can't reach as suddenly as their founders may wish. For example, "Explorers" and "Knowledge Seekers" must come close to the kind of guilds UtM seems to mean.
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Personally I can't think of any good reason for guilds at all. They seem to exist only due to popular demand and are more out of context than in no matter how hard their members try and many of you do try hard to be in context. As far as I am concerned the only guilds that should be allowed are official guilds created by the settings team, headed by npcs and run in the background by gms. That would take care of bad guild names. There might still be some but they would be officially bad. ;)
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Ah, but what about Warriors Organization? Or the Outlaws? Or The Fallen Kingdom? Sheeples (which I think is a weak name :P) is the most OOCest guild I've ever seen, but at least it keeps people organized. Plus, it's sorta fun.
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The Mercenaries possibly applies here. Currently we are still trying to pull everything together, but active members keep quitting, or becoming too busy to play much. Yes, it is very young, and somewhat unstable because of the dependance on 3 people. Our name is rather weak, I agree. We could have been very creative. But it says who we are, and we will work as mercenaries in role-plays that are offered.
I agree and disagree with what has been said. Yes, many guilds are uncreative, unoriginal, and unstable. But there are a fair amount of fun ones, as Raa said, that might not be terribly IC. I think the system is fine, just the way it is. If people have badly named guilds with poor vision, few may join. In the long run, only the best are known to players everywhere. And remember, bad ideas and bad names can be the start of a guild, but with the addition of a few key members, it can grow into something great
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"Thieves of Yliakum" would be the best named guild out there, in my opinion.
Personally I find the use of 'of Yliakum' in any guild name to be a bit over the top. It rules out all possibilities of other guilds in the same area being created. It's the same as having names like "Police of the World" or "whatever music band of the world" in real life.
Now for the original remark, yes there are loads of poor guild names out there but I do have to say it is very hard to make a good guild name with limited knowledge about the settings. Lately we're getting more and more background information, which I love by the way but I can recall a time where we barely had anything to go on, a book or three in Jayose's library and here or there a popup with info. Try making good guild names with that :P
All for an enforcement on better guild names and purposes though!
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It's an MMO, you can't expect anything but weird guild names. This sounds like a thread I would've made a few years ago, complaining about something that would never be changed. Just gonna have to deal with it, that's final. =/
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A few hundred years back you could have said "Humans down have wings, you can't expect us to fly around!" then some guy decided to build an airplane and now we're flying all over the globe, even into space.
"This is just how things are." is a poor argument and in my opinion a poor position to take. Settling down with the present won't make anything happen in the future.
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I don't know what to say except, you really can't expect people not to make guild names like this. This thread isn't going to have the entire playerbase read it and instantly change their guild names, you just need to coop...what makes a guild good isn't the name, but their purpose and the roleplay they put out. Give some suggestions of a "stronger" name for a guild that hasn't been made yet, and perhaps something will happen.
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I agree that the name of a guild is only a part of what makes a guild, their purpose and interaction with the game are a lot more important. For example if we look at the Dark Empire, I have to honestly say the name is poorly chosen since there is no mention of empires and they aren't exactly an empire either. That name was thought up long, long ago and the current leaders of the Empire keep it partially out of respect for it's original founders. Despite it's name the Dark Empire is, in my opinion, a rolemodel organisation when it comes to structure, purpose and roleplaying.
Here you could say that the normally meaningless word 'Empire' has obtained it's very own meaning within the world of Yliakum.
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I did in fact suggest how to improve the names.
Avoid chains of abstractions.
(again I like both guilds)
Instead of "Paladins of Yliakum" try, "Talad's arm." <--- you even get a sword named after you ;)
what I mean is that people should try to bind their guild to some existing settings content and that guilds should at the very least know the settings before naming themselves something off the wall.
"Cabal of Blackflame" <--should always and only be a secret guild if this name or any linked to blackflame are used.
"Disciples of Trasok"
I agree with what Zan said about territories, confine it to a region:
"Cut-purses of Hydlaa"
"Jewelers of Ojaveda"
"Bronze Door Guardians"
Links to locations, deities, and professions of Yliakum are preferable to random obscure names.
Historic names:
"The sect of Galeran"
"Survivors of Ylon Donari"
Names from races:
"Clamod Warriors" "Seeds of Dermoria"
There are no current plans to force this on anyone, I do ask that players at least consider the principles I am advocating in the spirit of improved roleplay.
Settings will be releasing more and more info over time to aid such choices.
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Sadly, you're right Xillix. The quality of guild names has been declining. It seems people just want to have a l33t guild name, and don't care wether it is a good one or not. I sometimes wonder why there are guilds at all. Characters know they belong to a guild, and don't need to have a tag under their name to know they are in the guild. Furthermore, the guildtag is abused as OOC information IC.
Besides, I like the name "Survivors of Ylon Donari" :P
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Suno_Regin
If I find a way to disagree more with your attitude on this issue it'll be a miracle.
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Honestly, I don't think the names are as big of a deal. It's the roleplay and motives that matter. Now I do agree that if a guild has a solid roleplay, history, motive from the beginning, that good names generally ensue, but it doesn't necessarily have to be that way. If the guild, "Backside of an Ulbernaut" was created by a newb that came into some money and some other likewise newb-ish friends, it doesn't mean in three months when our newb friend realises HE was the backside of an Ulbernaut, he has to throw everything away. Actually in RP that doesn't make sense. He works out a way to make great RP, develops a history, and becomes alot less newb-ish. He turns his guild name into a joke regularly RP-ed in game and viola, we have a decent guild.
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I think they are a huge deal. Every new player reads them. If elder do not wield naming effectively it does not promote doing so. You throw nothing away a name change is simple.
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I think we should look at Guild naming the same way we look at naming a political party. Because (almost) every guild has members with different disciplines (most even have multiple) and so making it hard to name a guild after a profession that the guild carries out. A (average) Guild in PS is more of an organization trying to defend their goals, therefor the reference to the political party naming.
Now WHY look at it the same way as political party naming?
Well, A (normal) Political party likes to be taken seriously as do (most) guilds, So have a name that MAKES sense and gives a clue what the guild is about ;)
Also, for many new political parties the 'best' name is already taken by and 'not so different but still not the same' other party. So they try to be creative and get over the same message with their name (maybe even a stronger message).
At last, Intimidating names, 'cool' names ect. Don't usually work for the more intellectual individuals, and an über hard to understand name may lead to a draw back of the more adventures individuals. So try to think hard about what the guild is supposed to be (If it's good you already did that, else you wouldn't create a guild :P) and what kind of members it needs to attract. A good name would consist of one (perhaps 2) words, that unite the whole guild and it's beliefs/goals.
and as very last, names like "X of Y" are not original, It shows that you have something in common with another guild (the X-factor in this case :P ) and you try to differnce your guild with the Y-factor. To make this difference More clear leave out the 'X of' and make something better with the Y-factor.
Wooow, This might be my most smartestestest post ever :sweatdrop:
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Xillix, there's a difference between who'd be posting this. I actually agree, the names for some guilds are extremely retarded, but if I'd been the one to post this, I can assure you it would've been locked or deleted, it's happened in the past. Just being a developer making a thread of the same nature as the ones I used to make in the past, you're really getting away with "making a stupid thread..."
I still fall back on what I said before, this won't change, mainly because ANYONE can make a guild. You even say to "make a guild if you're bored" which is just idiotic...if you guys are gonna do something like that, don't turn around and complain about it. If Karyuu were here I bet this thread might've even been locked, you can't complain about something so dumb, names are names, get over it. Until there's some sort of naming rule for guilds, drop it, because there's really nothing you can do by complaining on the forums, I learned that the hard way.
Hell, why isn't this in the complaint department? It's there for a reason. =/
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You even say to "make a guild if you're bored" which is just idiotic.
He already said he didn't like that MOTD and he changed it.
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This is not a complaint, but an admonition.
Our moderators do a fine job.
I figured this thread would incite a positive discussion.
If you care for Xillix's old heart, reflect on your guild name and ask, "Is this a good name?" "Does this represent the guild?" "Does this improve the immersion of those I role play with?"
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Teehee, I forgot that you could just change the name of a guild. Looks like I'm the Backside of an Ulbernaut.
My guild? "Survivors of Vaern" Very applicable with a detailed history and motive.
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Defenders of Light. <--- Meaningless chain of abstractions.
What one sees as a meaningless chain of abstractions, another may see as a kenning.
As certain someone taught me several months ago, even if you think things people do ingame are disruptive for roleplaying environment, forget about trying to change the situation. If many people see nothing wrong with it, "it stays."
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/me starts writing rules for true guilds, downgrading all other 'guilds' to clubs, groups, houses, and parties, and makes a note to start pestering engine folks about what is possible.
Thy will be done.
By the way, yes, Sheeples is a completely OOC lable, and not even used as an IC guild at all. In fact, the original purpose of The Sheeple Foundation was to make fun of other guilds names, histories, and actions. In a way, they still do that. The Sheeples are the anti-guild, yet follow more strict in-character roleplay rules than most other 'guilds' I know of. Weak guild name? Well, first you would have to consider them a guild in the first place, and that is just silly. ;)
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I can totally relate to what Xillix is saying. In my day, I'd design a kickass campaign complete with detailed NPCs, towns, flushed out maps, etc., spending hours on the background and settings. Then a player would join in and want a name like "Kiebler Kookeeznfudge". It seemed to be demeaning to my campaign setting and all my hard work.
Unfortunately, there is another side that is undeniable. It is a game, and players should be having fun first and foremost. Perhaps there is a happy medium to be found by tweaking the requirements to establish a guild, e.g. more members, more tria. This may, at least, accomplish only the most serious players establishing guilds.
Note: for the of you who don't get the reference... "Kiebler Kookeeznfudge" is Keebler Cookies and Fudge, a popular cookie with an elf for a "spokesperson".
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/me helps UtM with something he thought of not too long ago
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By the way, yes, Sheeples is a completely OOC lable, and not even used as an IC guild at all. In fact, the original purpose of The Sheeple Foundation was to make fun of other guilds names, histories, and actions. In a way, they still do that. The Sheeples are the anti-guild, yet follow more strict in-character roleplay rules than most other 'guilds' I know of. Weak guild name? Well, first you would have to consider them a guild in the first place, and that is just silly.
I tried to do that with the Loch Ness Monster Guild but the thread kept getting deleted :D
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Weak guild name? Well, first you would have to consider them a guild in the first place, and that is just silly.
Well, considering there are no sheep in Yliakum...
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Man I wanted to call make a guild called "Monty Python's Flying Circus Troup", guess I can't now.
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easy ones......Followers of Laanx, Followers of Talad, We are atheist hear us roar! ~ ::|
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Yeah some names aren't that great. However I don't think them "weak."
Defenders of Light for example. Why would I call it not so good? Because most likely when they say light (have no idea if its true) they are refering to the good vs evil relationship to light vs darkness, something we have in rl but doesn't have to exist in ps. In ps darkness doesn't equal bad and light doesn't equal good so they'd be bringing in a rl concept.
Now I had a guild called the Decayers of Light. One could see the name and already go back to the same thing I just mentioned that it is supporting an rl concept and not a ps one, making it bad. However the reason for the name is because thats what they are meant to do "decay light." They are dark mages and want to bring a world of darkness, in other words a world that resembles them. So when they say they are decaying light does that mean we are killing good guys? No, it means what it says literally. Decaying light to make darkness more seen, more existent. We just happen to kill goodies because they are the only people who try to stop us.
Fact is if one wanted to they could probably support Defenders of Light in a way in which if you argued agaisnt them you'd just feel silly. The name is probably be applied to a guild the wrong way, thus you feel it weak. However I can bet that same name could be applied to a guild and their purpose could be to defend the crystal, the light of the world. Possibly something happened ingame which caused them to form an alliance and the name was made purely based from the purpose. Then it sounds much better.
I don't think the names are weak, just lacking originality a lot of the time. Many guilds name themselves for reasons that do make sense regardless of whether the name sounds like its something you'd hear on a saturday morning cartoon. Original guild names will be a problem, most likely you won't get many even when just using what the game offers. First Talad's arm will sound cool and all but then you'll get Laanx's Leg and the Body of the Black Flame and it will get repeptive again. As for the region names they only sound so original because they have yet to be done. After a while of use they will be unintresting too.
So yeah, if you skipped reading all that I basically said that guild names aren't weak, just lack originality, which is hard to come by. :P
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Please don't eve start on my guild name >.> And Duraza, didn't I think of that guild name for you o.O
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Is defenders of the light actually a guild name?
Oops, nothing personal.
I mind the Rangers name much less than many.
I think people miss the premise here some, I am asking the players to aid us in making world more real by giving more thought to their guild names. Yes I mean also the renaming of old guilds.
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Still I dont get what you would consider good guild names. <The anarchists>? <The dwarfen comunity for keeping up traditions>? <The Gemcutters>? <The miners guild>? <Proposers of science and progress>? <Ale drinkers union>? <The republicans>? <The liberals>? <The scientists>?
What I wanna to demonstrate with my proposals is, that most players (including me) aren't native english speakers and when I would have to think of a non to obvious guild name crap like the above would get out.
Still I dont catch what a bad guild name is. For example to me names like <Elemental light> for example just say that this is a good aligned guild. Its has a good and catchy abbreviation (the elementals).
When I look at the names of political parties in real life, there are similar names with little or no meaning in it. Some are just plain rediculous. I think if all guild names would be cool and meaningfull that would be unrealistic ;)
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And Duraza, didn't I think of that guild name for you o.O
Yeah, just using it as an example :P
Is defenders of the light actually a guild name?
Oops, nothing personal.
Not sure if it still is but I remember seeing the guild tag before.
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"Survivors of Ylon Donari"
If I remember correctly, it's Ylon Dynari (unless they really did change the name of the place).
I've been leading a secret guild for a while now, called <The Syndicated Mercantile>. The main reason it's secret (and the main reason I haven't advertised it on these forums) is probably that the current guild name is too "general" for my tastes. But then again, IRL we have companies named General Motors, General Electric, etc.
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- Outlaws/Mercenaries;
- <Insert crap here> of Yliakum (for a guild);
- Republic/Organization/Empire/Community (for guild name).
1st are selfish names. There might be other people wanting to use the Mercenary name.
2nd and 3rd are organization names, not guild names.
I think fairy stuff like "Enlighted" or "Awakened" or "Knights of the Glory" and the like are acceptable, if you consider a certain background. Though a bit weak still, since they're too abstract.
"What is a good name?" You ask?
Something without a far-fetched explanation. Like Oja Road Wardens. Or Broken Wall Arts. :P
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Well I have to agree with Xillix, but I am a bit uprised with how Xillix is posting it as this is so obviously not a new subject.
How often have these points been made and how often have people asked for guilddemands be more then just the tria? That guildnames are not in setting and that even those that could be often don't really know what their RP purpose is has been the very reason for people asking for some checking beforehand of creating guilds.
I still maintain that it's the only way to get wellthought out guilds as a rule instead of the exeption. It's also very doable I think, but it is indeed a choise in how much you want to focus on the RP aspect. If you want an RPgame for real you need some mild form of a DM. You need to give people some well ment nudges to show them what the meaning is. That is how people should learn.
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Here, I think I know what Xillix wants. Give me the money, I'll make a guild called "Strong Guild Name"
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Xillix wants the guilds to enhance the settings, not just live be their rules.
I think I've got it now.
The crafters of Yliakum is a decent name.
A better name would be -
The Ulbreti Warriors - An Enki guild that praises Ulbernauts for their strength and tries to live as they see the Ulbernauts do.
Galderan's Sect - A group of people who go around praising Laanx and practicing strong magic.
The Warriors of Bloodaxe - A group of adventurers who wish to mimic the brave acts of the once great Grimal Bloodaxe.
As opposed to being "something Dragon something" (Any guildname with that references dragons is fail in my books) take a creature from the PlaneShift universe.
"The Defenders of the Crystal's holy Light" <--- crazy fanatic group \o/
I hope I got it right, Xil
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Crafters of Yliakum? Could it be less imaginative? Only if you called your Empire after a Star Wars thingy. Wasn't me.
Yup, I agree with Waylander there. Names should have more to do with Planeshift and function, rather than just sounding hot and childish.
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Yup, I agree with Waylander there.
For those who are curious: Yes, that is the safest way to always be right.
And of course, just before people pounce on me, Imagination is always a good thing, though I personally believe it belongs in the history much more than it does in the name that doesn't mean I don't think names should not be creative.
(Dragon is not creative... Or anything good for that matter.)
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Crafters of Hydlaa or Oja may be better. But as for my guild, Rangers of Yliakum it is because when the game expands, I intend for my guild to follow suit. We aren't really a guild anyways the way it is defined. More of a bunch of friends with common goals who unite for their common goal, as well as help each other out with personal goals. Don't know what you'd call that, but it is what we are and we are to encompass all of Yliakum, not just one level, or even one region. To define a weak guild name by 'of' this or 'of' that only makes any difference depending on the goals of the guild. Crafters would generally be a per-region type guild, I would think, and thus 'of Yliakum' would be a slightly poor name. But say maybe a guild called 'Guardians of Yliakum' would be reasonable, because they guard not just a region or city, but all of Yliakum.
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Guilds will generally express themselves in a limited area. Because within guilds people are supposed to work together. It feels strange to have a guild take up the name of Yliakum for itself just like that.
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- Outlaws/Mercenaries;
- <Insert crap here> of Yliakum (for a guild);
- Republic/Organization/Empire/Community (for guild name).
1st are selfish names. There might be other people wanting to use the Mercenary name.
That might be so, but why might other people want to use that name? I think that counts as a rather strong Guildname, not only because of that, but it attracts the kind of people they want to attract ;)
Every claimed guildname is selfish because someone else may like it too :P
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Outlaws/Mercenaries;
Sangwa in particular mentioning Mercenary guild reminds me of something.
How many people posting here actually realise the guild page for planeshift.it gives this as an example of decent guild name:
"Incensio Tenebrae (Latin-Burning Darkness)"
With bottom line being, the more original the guild name, the better?
The organisation around here never ceases to amuse me :P
But no, seriously. Keep looking for guilt in people who only follow the official guidelines.
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With the advent of racial languages you might want to change any Latin names to enkidukai or whatever else might be around. I do not believe Latin is officially in setting context.
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How many people posting here actually realise the guild page for planeshift.it gives this as an example of decent guild name:
"Incensio Tenebrae (Latin-Burning Darkness)"
With bottom line being, the more original the guild name, the better?
The organisation around here never ceases to amuse me :P
But no, seriously. Keep looking for guilt in people who only follow the official guidelines.
Probably the around same amount of people who realize that the website is out of date, actually, Draklar.
Funny that. ;)
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So perhaps it would be a good idea to less blame people for following hints of official website and more update it? Just a thought? Maybe?
But wow, Khado. For the time we know each other, I'm surprised you actually believe you could dismiss me with a fallacy like that.
And for the respect I regained for you, that you actually tried :P
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I agree with Draklar. And if they kept the website not updated after spotting that, then that's just as wrong as getting a bad example in the first place.
Socius, I'll try with something more picture-like.
Imagine a guild called Mercenaries. Crappy name, right? Now look at this:- The Mercenaries;
- Nightshade Mercenaries;
- Rock Heart Mercenaries.
Doesn't the first guild look out of it? No specialization, no imagination.
Every claimed guildname is selfish because someone else may like it too
True. But using very general and vague names such as Mercenaries is even more selfish. For instance, there won't be many people desiring to use the name Shinito's Mercenaries. But there will many people wanting to use the name Mercenaries.
I hope I've made myself clearer.
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I am sure we can change the website.
How or why what I have done in this thread constitutes looking for guilt completely throws me off.
What could be wrong with asking people to give their guild name more thought?
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If I should believe Wiki: "A guild is an association of craftspeople in a particular trade". In that line of reasoning a 'generic' name like 'warriors guild', 'explorers guild' or 'crafters guild' are in fact the only guilds that even comply to this defenition. These kind of names wouldn't be very imaginative but in real life but would be to the point concerning the meaning of a guild, being just that: a group of people with the same profession that is somewhat organised. The problem isn't in fact the lack of good guild names, it is a lack of professions that can be professed. But to my knowledge certain implemented professions don't formally have guilds like smelters, weapon or armor repairers or miners. There's not even a magic based guild, though learning the Ways seems to be an important part of Yliakum society. The rest of the profession based guilds could of course be RP'ed like cooks, tailors, undertakers, lawyers, Hydlaa tour guides and you name it. A very good initiative in this direction was a guild set up for having a newspaper published. However this hardly ever seems te be the case, because the focus in the game is very oriented towards fighting. For an RP based game it would be advisable to have more of the professions that aren't (directly or indirectly) related to combat.
And for the rest references to certain governmental structures like empires, republics and royal houses or cities that seem to have vanished appear to be popular. Since none of these places are mentioned in the 'official' history or geography of Yliakum, all these guild names could be considered out of the framework that was set by the development team. Having a small number of inhabitants as Yliakum seems to have its not likely to have multiple governmental structures in place. In real life I'm a city planner and looking al the number of 20 vigesimi (comming from the Craft Guilds), the fixed residents (NPC's) and commuters (players) and the available housing and facilities in the Capitol (Hydlaa) I would estimate the total inhabitants of this level of the Crystal at a few thousand at most. Of course the remote caves could harbor miniature 'kingdoms' or 'empires' like we see in the remote mountainous regions of Europe (Liechtenstein, Andorra). These would however have to be (near) self sufficient communities of a few hundred inhabitants at most, not grand houses or empires. In fact if there was such a thing as an Yliakum wide movement undermining the semi-totallitary (a hereditary system for Vigesimi resembles nobility) structure, I would've sent the Shadow Squadron and/or the Sunshine Squadron to eradicate it long ago, seeing as there is enough trouble involving the creatures from the Stone Labyrinths and the Derghir to have civil unrest.
For the rest there are guilds that have pretty names like Vlahii and Nomothetes, but those names come from languages that are not part of Yliakum. A guild based on ancient Kran I can relate to, but Latin or Greek simply just out of context. Of course there are guilds that are race based too. Seeing as the current 'guild' system does include the traditional 'clan' structures, this is kinda understandable. Most of these guilds seem to involve Enkidukai or Dwarves, races that seem to have stronger bonds due to their overall nature. RP-wise they should be regarded as such, clans, not as guilds in the meaning stated above.
And there's of course the 'of the light', 'of the crystal' guilds that are appealing to the general theme and usually have a decent background story but don't really excell in orriginality. And of course there are guilds that have names that should've been banned from the start like 'Sheepless'. To my knowledge Yliakum doesn't have any sheep and in fact never had any sheep, so 'sheep' itself would be unknown. OOC-ly named guilds like that should in my opinion without a thought be disbanned to maintain integrety of the RP setting of the game. Of course you could reason that 'guilds' don't all wear insignia or stuff like that, but from a player's point of view the damage is allready done then.
Original names? make a guild of bookmakers and help darphen with his dark ventures. start a archeological guild helping to uncover traesure with canyt and nyshyn. Become a poet and start a writer's guild that hold lectures and has award ceremonies. Its not that hard, just needs a bit more work then 'my parents were royalty from a far away kingdom that doesn't excist anymore' or 'an unknown god asked me kindly to rule Yliakum'.
[Edit] How about a pet trainers guild? I'd like to see yulbar performing tricks :)
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I don't think you're throwing guilt actually. I agreed with the part about having bad examples. Besides, there are plenty of people who have crappy guild names without ever having read the Guild information.
Quq Leque:
From the PS Site:
Guild: An association of persons of the same trade or pursuits, formed to protect mutual interests and maintain standards.
It does make sense to have guilds with different names. I believe that those sort of guilds you mentioned were also distinguished by location and or by other names in case they belonged to a similar location. You couldn't have two Blacksmith Guilds in Lisbon called Blacksmith Guilds. That would be confusing.
About Empires and Kingdoms, there can be attempts at creating small sovereign sites. All it takes is people interested, time and will. The government would obviously attempt to dismantle any attempt at having an armed and capable competition though. I also don't agree that (self proclaimed) Empires, Kingdoms, Communities, etc. use the Guild System as it seems rather inconsistent. If we consider those people as having similar pursuits though... I think it fits on the definition given. Doesn't sit too well with me though.
From the PS site again:
Beyond Yliakum, concealed by the Bronze Doors, the Stone Labyrinths, the unknown Kadaikos, homeland of Lemurs, and the legendary Pradesha - ruled by the enlightened Ahrijani - wait to be discovered. And much more...
As you can see, there are rumors of civilizations not ran by the Government. This could inspire wishes in some people to attempt at making something similar, even if it means searching beyond the Bronze Doors and risking life and sanity. This is a part of the setting I've been very interested in, since I find myself leading the Dark Empire (which is in fact a proto-empire with wishes to establish itself.)
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I also don't agree that (self proclaimed) Empires, Kingdoms, Communities, etc. use the Guild System as it seems rather inconsistent.
I agree, we always had to be careful to state that we were not a guild at all but a Community that was just using the ingame guild system for organizational purposes. It was always a bit of a challenge thus to define ourselves adequately as the initial impression was that we were a guild when our intent was not to be :)
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Unfortunately I find myself doing the same thing (though I hide the Dark Empire guild tag) because there is no organization system in PS (by the way, if you devs could come up with organization/alliance chat without, that'd be peachy.)
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To me it all sounds a little like having your cake and eating it too. A hellish sort of predicament. "Redefining what a guild can be" sounds like you are a guild and not denying it. It seems to me that both of your clubs could be done completely without any sort of official support. Both appear to straddle the border of what the settings allow but this thread is about names and not anything else. Dark Empire is fairly trite and commonplace as far as names go even before the whole Star Wars thing, there was not much new there either. The Community of Vaalnor is more original but it is easily mistaken for the Community of Valor and the whole knights of the round table sort of thing. I do not know much about it so that could just be misleading.
Still they are better than any guild I created :) (exactly none)
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The Dark Empire's name is creative, deep and logical. Just not for you humans. Myself and Induane were commenting on the confusing usage of Guilds, that have names that don't sound suitable for guilds. That makes sense for this discussion.
Again, the Dark Empire's name is creative, deep and logical. If you repeat this enough, you'll get it.
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I like guild names that give some sort of idea of what they are about. Although I also like poetic, or cool sounding ones, sometimes I find myself asking members what their guild does. Such as the Woiperdingers (No idea how to spell it, sorry). My guild was discussing it, but we didn't know exactly what it was. I walked past one member, and ended up discussing their guild with them, although she was a new recruit, and didn't know as much as I had hoped. So, 'The Warriors' and 'The Outlaws' might sound simple, but everyone that sees them knows what they are, and if one wants to be a warrior, there's a warrior guild!
I agree with Draklar. And if they kept the website not updated after spotting that, then that's just as wrong as getting a bad example in the first place.
Socius, I'll try with something more picture-like.
Imagine a guild called Mercenaries. Crappy name, right? Now look at this:- The Mercenaries;
- Nightshade Mercenaries;
- Rock Heart Mercenaries.
Doesn't the first guild look out of it? No specialization, no imagination.
Every claimed guildname is selfish because someone else may like it too
True. But using very general and vague names such as Mercenaries is even more selfish. For instance, there won't be many people desiring to use the name Shinito's Mercenaries. But there will many people wanting to use the name Mercenaries.
I hope I've made myself clearer.
Sorry, Songwa, if you wanted to make a 'Shinito's Mercenaries' guild. But there can be more mercenary guilds, just as there are many warrior guilds (Warrior Organization, for example). 'The Mercenaries' guild itself has simple concepts and goals, being a generic, neutral band of mercenaries, so another guild with more specific ideas on the basic concept can do whatever it wants. About the 'Nightshade Mercenaries'? I don't remember much about them, but it sounds like a mercenary group that works more for evil. No one will hate you for creating a guild with original goals. Good luck, if anyone out there wants to improve an existing concept.
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the Dark Empire's name is creative, deep and logical X 197,000. It still is not very original.
Results 1 - 10 of about 197,000 for "dark empire". (http://www.google.ca/search?q=%22dark+empire%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)
Amaurotic Toparchy would have been original and have a similar meaning. I'm just saying you could have tried a little harder to come up with something new rather than to justify such a hoary name. By the way that name I offered was created by looking at moby thesaurus for dark and empire. Neither of the words were in my funk and wagnalls dictionary but the first was an adjective formed normally from a noun that was and the second was made from a combining form prefix and a combining form suffix.
All the same if you like it not much else matters I suppose.
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You're very right, the name Dark Empire isn't original at all. I've kept it for old time's sake (I'm not the Dark Empire's founder), and because it did have some sort of meaning. The founder was a dark skinned diaboli and we plan on settling on the darkness that the bronze doors cast on the lands they seal within (On a side note, does the Azure sun shine on the labyrinths?). Since there are official entities using light based symbolism (night, day) despite of actual function, I think it wouldn't be a that far fetched of a name.
I was giving examples Serq. I don't like the name Shinito either.
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Even if it was no real guild... "Janners Way" doesn't seem to have been the worst name - as far as I followed this discussion. ;)
And "Ruby Reign" was just a desperate creation. Even more now that I think again about that name! :D
But...
Does a guild name really need to be extremely unique, creative and original, to be "acceptable"? Why would you reject a guild named after a certain profession with such a force? I would simply expect a professionals' guild being named in a not very creative, but logical and obvious form.
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A weak guild name most often is the result of a lack of clearly defined goals for the guild itself. A guild name should in a way reflect the goals of a guild. If those goals are uncreative or non-existent, you'll automatically end up with a boring or extremely vague name.
Does a guild name really need to be extremely unique, creative and original, to be "acceptable"? Why would you reject a guild named after a certain profession with such a force? I would simply expect a professionals' guild being named in a not very creative, but logical and obvious form.
I agree with you. I always thought the "Explorers guild" to be an acceptable name, even though it's not very unique or original and it has a 'selfish name'. The name covers what it stands for and I guess that makes up for the other things. I like it when a guild name also raises some questions as long as it also says something about what the guild does. "Explorers guild" may be a bit too straight forward, but changing it is no option since we're all way too attached to that name. :D
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There no reason to not have a weak name if it fits your guild really well. Just put more effort into it if you can and think about tying it into the settings.
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If the name fits the guild, and what the guild is built on, what it does, etc., then what does it matter?
Like, is 'The United Miners of Hydlaa' a weak or uncreative name? I like self explanatory names that don't leave me thinking, 'Huh, I wonder what thesaurus the 'Collaborative Excavators of Valuable Material' have?' :)
The people are what makes a guild strong. I mean, you can have the most awesome guild name ever, but if everyone in your guild are horrible people who do nothing to further themselves, the game, or the guild, then people aren't going to care. But if the Knights of <noun> are so amazingly awesome, then who cares about their name, it's just awesome! People will like them, and not care about their relatively cookie cutter name. (Well, except for a few people)