PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Pandar on November 10, 2007, 02:05:48 am
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I think that it is generally accepted that to things must occur if this game is to reach his potential.
1) The game must continue to be developed. I understand that bugs are a necessary part of this process. However, I think that it is vital that some kind of effective system of maps must be implemented. I realize that there are some that would argue that this would somehow diminish the role-playing aspect of the game. However, I would argue that it makes up for the fact that in IRL, I can ask for directions and if I do not understand the directions that I am given, I can ask for further clarification. Also, there are many intricacies of real life that can not be duplicated in this or any other game. Maps are a small compromise to overcome these limitations.
2) The game must become more conducive to new players. Specifically, I am referring to the actions of some veteran players. I ran into an issue where I received the “(monster) is Impervious to Attack”. I received the message with several different characters, and trying to attack several different kids of creature. I searched for help on the forum. However as I am certain that most people are aware, the search system for the forum can be very challenging. Typically, there are either hundreds of uses of the key words, or very few and not necessarily useful.
After I gave up searching on the forum, I posted a request for help.
I am very new to the game, so please forgive me for the newbie question.
Whenever I try to attack rats or anything else, I get the message "Impervious to Attack" I have tried with several different characters with the same result. I received the same message in the intro mini-quest. I do not have any combat skills, and my Str is 56.
If I can not attack rats, are the other options?
Thanks in advance for your help,
I received a wonderful response from Dajoji explaining that the NPC Server was off and an explanation of what that meant.
However, a veteran player decided that it was necessary to add the comment “Is our board search function defective?” Additionally, the post is now locked so that I can not clarify that IMO, the search function can be unwieldy, and yes, in fact, I did try to use the search function. While I realize that it may be tedious to see the same questions posted in the forum, quite frankly, I posted this in the Newbie Help section and you are probably going to see the same questions on a regular basis. If this bothers you, it might be better if you viewed the other sections of the forum and responded to more unique requests for assistance. As my mother said, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all".
Incidentally, while it is very true that I am a newbie in this game, I am a veteran role-player. I have been playing role-playing games for 25 years and have reached top levels in other MMORPGs such as Runescape and Star Wars.
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Rune$cape is a RPG? Every time I tried logging on it was a lawlz zomg u t00k my l00t sort of game. Not the same at all. :D
I do agree though that some people are not always as nice to new players as they should be. I do think this is a small percentage, however they tend to be more vocal for some reason.
I also agree that the search function is unwieldy. Similar things have happened to me before where I searched to no avail then was bombarded with posts of "This has been discussed eleventy brazillion times already do you not know how to use the search function?" I find that sort of response a little too common and a little too impatient. New players need to learn the ropes so some faux pas are bound to happen and treating them like jerks is not the way to deal with it. If it is so bothersome I agree, simply ignore it. Someone with more patience will handle answering the question if the mods don't lock it as a duplicate thread.
I received a wonderful response from Dajoji explaining that the NPC Server was off and an explanation of what that meant.
Which is precisely what should have happened. I haven't read the thread for myself, but I don't know why it would need locked. IMO locking threads is something that should happen very infrequently on threads that are out of control, not newbie question threads in a newbie help forum. What sort of questions do they expect there? It should be a place where such questions are permitted and people patiently explain the answers and make suggestions on how to do other things as well. There will be lots of repeating, but that is normal and ok imo.
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As for the 'impervious to attack' messages, I would give new players a hand and provide them with OOC information ingame. While the message itself is somewhat OOC in the first place, why not adding a line "NPC client currently not running" or something? It would surely do more good than worse, in my opinion anyway.
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I quote our forum rules and game FAQ:
game FAQ (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=21677.0)
32. Why am I getting the message "[NPC name] is imprevious to attack" when I try to attack a monster?
If you are getting this message that means that the program controlling the NPC's behaviour (npcclient) has either crashed or it has been shut down by a developer in order to improve/fix something. Nobody knows when the program will be restarted, so don't ask.
failure to read the FAQ before posting when the answer is in the FAQ will get your thread locked.
forum rules of conduct (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=22698.msg273553#msg273553)
everything applies, but primarily since it was brought up specifically:
Be gentle with the Wayfarers.
Remember, everyone was a beginner at one time! We don't want people to feel intimidated. Some may appear on the forum before having read these guidelines, so give people a break if they don't yet know the intricacies of forum etiquette. Even if a poster repeatedly misses etiquette tips, give him or her the benefit of doubt and don't let your irritation own you.
If you don't have the patience to point them politely toward the posting guidelines, please ignore them and let somebody who does have patience answer them.
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I quote our forum rules and game FAQ:
failure to read the FAQ before posting when the answer is in the FAQ will get your thread locked.
Ok, I am going to raise a objection here-missing 1 point of 37(2.7%), is hardly a reason to be rude and the tone of your comment is extremely rude.
If you want to lock the thread, fine. However, locking it without removing such a comment implies that you agree with it, which raises serious questions about your judgement-especially in light of the fact that you are moderator.
I understand that you are young (yes, 22 is very young!), and that inherently that means that you feel that you are correct, especially when combined with the fact that you have played the game for two years, however I will assure you that you must do a much better job of considering how others will react to you and your posts.
As stated many times, the game is pre-alpha and the forum search engine is archaic. I understand this. However, the inability for the forum search engine to properly identify that the question that was trying to answer, and for you to take the attititude that I should have found the answer is ignorant. Please try to understand that this game is quite a bit for any new player to attempt to digest. I did not make the post because I was too lazy to attempt to discover the answer. I made the post because I could not find the answer and after three days I was wondering what was going on.
I did not post after being locked in combat with a Rat for 30 minutes without the ability to hurt the rat or the apparent inability of the rat to hurt me. Neither did I complain when after being invinisible to rats and having killed a few of them, that I suddenly took 12 dmg then another 5 that got me sent to the Death Realm where I spent 4 hours trying to figure out how to leave, before being shown the way. Also, I did not post when I spent 8 hours trying to find the tavern.
You would have been much better off sending me a message, in game or out stating that the answer was in the FAQ, rather than try to defend the decision to lock the post and appear to treat me like a child.
I do not make a habit of criticizing others, especially those in authority. However, I do think that it is important for you to realize how your actions affect others. I realize that this will likely make no difference and you will continue with your current approach. But for the good of the game I felt that it was necessary to attempt to enlighten you.
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The issue was compounded by a typo in the relevant section of the FAQ which has been fixed. The thread question had been asked and answer, keeping it open would just invite more unpleasantness. If it had been me moderating I might have deleted the last post as being off topic but I am not a moderator nor do I think I would enjoy being so.
That said, topics criticizing the moderator's or gm's decisions are contrary to forum policy. If you have a real problem with what happened you should read this (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=22698.msg273554#msg273554) and follow the guidlines therein.
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Where you see being rude, I see being direct to the point. I don't know about you, but I'm a busy person, and I don't need filler. Just give me the facts.
Interesting you bring up age. :) A tip, never trust anything you see on the internet. I could be 12, I could be 45. I just like having it say I'm 22 because I like that number. And its poor of you to relate maturity to age to even begin with. I'm actually quite sure there are a few long time members who actually have an idea of how old I really am due to all the hints I've thrown about over the years, but again, who really cares how old someone is because age can not a be directly related to maturity.
As for the forum search feature: I don't know what you put in, put heres a screen shot of what I searched for. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/thebaronvonperrine/PS%20stuff/impervious.jpg
Seems that the search engine did its job to me.
Thank you for using the compliant section, your input is noted.
Have a nice day. :)
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Have a nice day. :)
Yay! Now let's all get drunk together at the Kada-El! \\o//
First round's on me!
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Maps have been decided long ago to lie with the players, not the developers. However what I do think we could use more is roadsigns and banners saying which road leads where and which area is which. This I expect to come in the future. You can also ask for directions in-game and anyone who knows their way will give them, I'm sure.
Using search engines is a skill on it's own and with a huge forum like this won't always yield the wanted results. Something that's also a skill on it's own is patience, especially for those new to the forums and the game. If it were up to me I'd force everyone to spend at least a month in-game before they could make founded complaints. Be glad it's not up to me :P Fact is Planeshift has a much longer 'getting used to' period than most other games. I don't find this a downside since it weeds out the bad apples and for me my newbie time was the most exciting time in the game. Discovering and learning everything there is to learn was challenging and entertaining. The key to planeshift of course being interaction with others.
Now for our forum Moderators, they are very few, while this forum is rather large and constantly being showered by complaints, bugs, issues and difficulties players have. Planeshift moderators have to deal with a huge workload and a lot of stress. Technically they have the right to do as they please, on this privately owned forum but generally they are being very generous towards us players. Mods can be systematic and cold in their replies but they are rarely rude unless seriously provoked. I didn't find Neko's reply rude at all, cold and to the point sure but not rude.
However I found your patronizing attitude towards young adults in your second post quite rude. Of course I find generalisations based on age or whatever else always inappropriate ... either way since it was done in an emotional/defensive state, let's just forget about this all move on and enjoy playing our game again. :)
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Compared to other message boards, where you may only get a
(http://forum.gleitz.info/images/smilies/rtfm.gif)
thrown at your forehead for not searching the board for "impervious" before posting, you got indeed very polite answers. ;)
Questions about "impervious monsters" are surely one of the most common in this board. Indeed, the search function is challenging sometimes. How often did I lose a thread and couldn't find it anymore, and the search was no help. But in this case, already the first best-matching hit (65% relevance) to "Impervious" explained it quite well, in my opinion.
I can understand you, due to everything being new and exciting, you can miss the most obvious solution to your problem: Simply asking other players in game, or advisors in the "Help" channel.
But as much patience you expect from "veterans" answering your "noob" questions, as much tolerance I hope to get from you when I just roll my eyes about the 103rd same and same question. Sorry, sometimes I forget that I was a noob once too. I am human, I am imperfect.
And the Life doesn't care much about rudeness, sometimes I have to take a deep hit and get no chance to complain. I just try not to blame the next bystander for it.
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Some pieces of information can go unnoticed in a forum, especially for those who are new. It can be overwhelming and it's ok to ask. Just keep in mind that if your question has been addressed somewhere else, your thread will probably get locked, but never with a "stfu noob!" attitude but to prevent more confusion. Neko and all the moderators do a great job to keep these forums in order and are very quick to spot thread dupes and fix them and that's good for us all, even if it's our thread the one getting locked.
Fortunately, the community is rather welcoming, aside from a grumpy oldie or two (but you grow to like them... eventually). I hope you will discover this in time. And yes, you make a good point: extra patience is required if you plan to post a reply in the newbie section. But, with internet being what it is, you can't take every post too seriously. There will always be those who won't miss an opportunity to bump their post count up +1.
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Right, i had the same problem with the monsters but i logged off then when i logged back on, it didn't happen also i completely agree with maps- i get lost
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When you ask a question which has been answered a thousand times, you can't expect to get away with it completely unscathed :P
You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, adult material, or otherwise in violation of any International or United States Federal law.
Nothing in there about being 'kind' to newbies, anyway...
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http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=22698.msg273553#msg273553
Keep feedback constructive.
All feedback on the game is appreciated as long as it is constructive. Keep it straightforward and include examples and facts when applicable. For example, “This game is ****!” or “This game is dying!” is not constructive feedback. “I am way annoyed with the following things about the game and here’s why…” is constructive and useful to us. The best way to get your opinions recognized is not to be abusive or offensive, but to be constructive and communicate in a mature fashion.
Keep feedback high-quality.
Please avoid frivolous and duplicate postings. Threads to announce that the servers are up (after a downtime), for example, or threads made just because you want to be the “first post” in a newly created section of the board, are not quality postings and cause us extra work to remove.
Respect the opinions of others.
Often arguments can’t be won, so if you have a contrasting opinion, please state it simply and clearly. If necessary, agree to disagree with others who may have differing opinions. When discussions turn to long, hostile arguments, the thread will be closed or removed. Sometimes people can write something that you may find offensive, but before launching into a public condemnation, please consider that the person may not have intended to cause offense. It is very easy to misinterpret a post on forums. There is absolutely no need to resort to insults. Respect others' views even if you disagree with them.
Also, do not dismiss other players by calling them “whiners”, “fanbois”, or other derogatory terms, or suggesting that they “just quit”. This is not constructive.
“Write conservatively, read forgivingly.” Text messages can be prone to misunderstanding because it can be difficult to guess the writer’s intent. It’s best to be conservative with sarcasm when writing, and assume good intent when reading.
Remember the Human.
The other people on this forum are real people, and PlaneShift developers, moderators, and Game Masters are people too. They have feelings. Please respect those people - they are here to help you.
Have Patience.
All the participants of this forum are using the forum and participating in discussions on their own time. If you post a question and no one responds, you shouldn't take it personally. If someone knows, they'll contribute. If they don't, they won't.
and particularly:
Be gentle with the Wayfarers.
Remember, everyone was a beginner at one time! We don't want people to feel intimidated. Some may appear on the forum before having read these guidelines, so give people a break if they don't yet know the intricacies of forum etiquette. Even if a poster repeatedly misses etiquette tips, give him or her the benefit of doubt and don't let your irritation own you.
If you don't have the patience to point them politely toward the posting guidelines, please ignore them and let somebody who does have patience answer them.
so yeah, I'd say being nice is pretty much covered.
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Compared to other message boards, where you may only get a
(http://forum.gleitz.info/images/smilies/rtfm.gif)
To true LigH.
/me takes that smilie and puts it in her pocket for future reference.
Just once I would like to see a thread on "Be kind to veteran players." We do put up with alot of the same questions from newbies day in and day out when it is totally unnecessary because of stickies in the forums and tutorial in game.
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Be kind to newbies is right...
I have been to every congregation of players from Ojevada to Hydlaa and asked more than a few questions in character and out of character (in [brackets] of course). Not only did nobody answer my questions after many tries to get an answer and waiting long amounts of time, I also got the great responses like "what is that THING doing in here" from a cat character in Ojevada. I asked what thing they where talking about and was told "you... fish elf". Well if that is kind to new players, you can have it.
Now I will say that I have had a few real nice players assist me from time to time with directions and advice. Please note that this is NOT the norm... most players either insult you if you ask or in a room of 10 or 12 lpayers (as in the taverns at Ojevada or Hydlaa) you ask a simple in character question like "where might one find <npc name>) and NOBODY answers you after 10 minutes and asking again and another 5 minutes passes by!!! Seriously, if you don't know, how about saying "I don't know". If I walk into a bar or any gathering of people in real life and ask I expect someone to answer even if only to say no. I expect this because I do it myself if I am asked or a group I am in is asked.
I hope many higher level people see this post because you should know... if you don't help new players you will eventually be playing alone and the game will lose all flavor if not shut down! BE HELPFUL!
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I asked what thing they where talking about and was told "you... fish elf".
Please note that people who act like this might think they're roleplaying well, but in fact are out of accordance with settings. People who act openly racist like that would have been arrested since it's against the law (the decree's in the library, look it up people.)
Sorry to hear your first few attempts for help were unproductive. See if you can find out in game which guilds are dedicated to helping newbies, and then look for people in said guild.
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heh heh fish elf that is lame. I would suggest though that using a racial epithet does not necessarily equate with racism. If one were of the disposition to hurl insults at anyone perceived to be weak and said person was not overly bright such an obvious difference as race would be a likely candidate for the taunt. The taunter may well have comrades of the same race not present with whom he trades similar barbs but whom he would also trust with his life should the occasion arise.
Perhaps the Octarchy really does have thought police. Do I risk incarceration or a fine if I refer to non-Kran as soft skin? I have done so for quite some time but it was never intended as an insult.
More to the topic though you may find that taverns are not the best place to ask questions because peole may be ignoring anything that is not from their clique due to the difficulty in following conversations when several are running concurrently. Whenever I have been trying to ask for help I usually ask once then wait 30 seconds and then move on and ask someone else. It can be frustrating at times when you are trying to do something but most of the time it will still be there to do tomorrow if no one is responding to you and there are other things that can be done in the meantime.
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Honestly, if this was a one or two time situation or if I had only tried taverns, this would be not that bad but I have been playing for a month now (on Planeshift but way longer in other RPG/MMORPG's and MUD's) and I have tried at the arena, at Harnquists as it seems to be a good gathering point. I have also tried many single users when I can catch them not in full run. Problem (for lack of a better word) is that single players sitting still are usually either AFK or busy in other screens and don't often see or pay attention to the chat box at these times. As to the groups, they remind me of WoW players... "you are not our level so you don't exist".
These forums are literally littered with posts like "go in game and ask other players in character", "try asking other plyers out of character with brackets [ ]", or "this is not the place to ask that question". With these posts in mind I do just that and get "taunted" as you call it in game, or worse simply ignored by the mass of the group completely.
Don't get me wrong, I love the concept of the game and the in game play is shaping up nicely. Still, when new people have questions and the in game help chanel tells you ask in game and so does the forums and you can't get help in game... something HAS to give.
I don't expect answers to this question here in this forum but as an example, I have a quest from Toda in Ojevada to get her armor shipment. I tracked that down and get back to her with her order details and she asks:
"Thank you. I am curious, though. What took so long? It was a simple enough errand...".
HOW THE HECK DO I ANSWER THAT????? OK, so I start with all the usual suspects (telling her all people I spoke to and all places I went etc....). NOPE, no way would that work. So can't finish the quests as you must answer that question. Given the AI of the NPC's this answer could be ANY combination of words and NPC names! MY God, I am so sick of being told "I don't understand you, can you use different words?"
With nobody answering in game for days now on even a clue of what she maybe looking for in her answer, and no other clue in the dialog, I am left bitter and simply about to drop this quest. I also feel that if things don't change this is only the first of MANY dropped quests.
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Well there is one other possibility and that is nobody wants to admit they do not know. Still you should have been able to get something. Is it possible you are perceived to have a bad character name? That might be a contributing factor for being ignored. Aside from that and getting to your real problem, I have not encountered that particular quest but did you try something along the lines of "I'm sorry, it took longer than I expected."
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I would suggest though that using a racial epithet does not necessarily equate with racism.
Tell that to Michael Richards :)
In answer to the "how the heck do I answer that" question - check your logs, and explain it succinctly.
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Actually the name thing would have been a good solution (made more sense anyway), but sadly no. My character name is Beroth Ignoka. I really don't think that is precieved as "bad" per se.
As to the what I have said and replied... I have used every combination of Names of NPC's encountered in the quest, where I traveled to and from, and yes I tried several variants of I am sorry as well as <NPC NAME> is sorry. I even mentioned getting lost! My chat log is seriously 2 or 3 pages of things like:
(05:07:50) Beroth says: travel
(05:07:52) Toda Ombretis says: No, I do not understand what you say. Can you say it differently?
(05:08:13) Beroth says: Harnquist had to work on it
(05:08:15) Toda Ombretis says: No, I do not understand what you say. Can you say it differently?
(05:08:48) Beroth says: simple
(05:08:50) Toda Ombretis says: Hmm.. you are a bit confusing, Tabei. Can you use different words?
(05:09:05) Beroth says: lost
(05:09:07) Toda Ombretis says: Hmm.. you are a bit confusing, Tabei. Can you use different words?
(05:09:13) Beroth says: I got lost
(05:09:15) Toda Ombretis says: No, I do not understand what you say. Can you say it differently?
(05:09:37) Beroth says: Trasok sent it to Harnquist
(05:09:39) Toda Ombretis says: No, I do not understand what you say. Can you say it differently?
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As far as the logs go I believe Jeraphon was referring to what the last npc may have said or others back the chain, not what you might have tried.
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Yeah as to the:
In answer to the "how the heck do I answer that" question - check your logs, and explain it succinctly
I did that and more, I would be glad to give you my 3 pages (3 pages in vi - linux editor, only on Toda nobody else in that 3 pages) of logs to browse through to see how thorough I have been.
Actually, I even just recently had 2 seperate players give me the answer they used (and they used the same exact phrase) and still she does not complete the quest. I am thinking at this point this may be a bug/glitch.
*edit*
We seem to be WAY off topic here, I am sorry for this thread getting started here at the end of another and I would move it but I believe a moderator or admin might have to since it involves many users posts.
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Heh... I've been called out for being a Ylian a lot by Enkis who don't like Ylians (I live in Oja most of the time). I just don't care.
If you ask people for help around a furnace or other crafting area, don't expect a quick response. When people get into it, you've got multiple things happening at once, not to mention other people probably talking to you. If you ask miners, they are probably not paying attention. They're eating and every 30seconds of so, look up at the screen and press a key. Or maybe they're reading War and Peace, who knows.
If you ask people questions while they're in the middle of roleplay (i.e. coming up to a group and asking about quest help, when just before you arrived, someone stabbed somebody else, someone is trying to profess their undying love to someone else, and someone else is trying to keep that second person from dying), they may not respond because they are fairly busy. Or, they're annoyed that you bothered them while they were roleplaying.
Some people don't like giving out quest help.
Try and make good friends that you know know things and are willing to help you.
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We seem to be WAY off topic here...
Indeed - Toda is an NPC. And kindness is an attribute of players (and player characters sometimes). ;)
Not all players are online every day and every daytime. There are some extremely busy crafters and fighters who may not be too responsive about questions. Chars chatting in a little group, or standing at the border of the plaza and looking around, may be better contacts.
But beware of the guild recruiters! :D (Not too seriously.)
Before breaking in with a question, though, first listen a while, that you don't disturb their roleplays with a totally unrelated question.
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This quest with Toda seems to have a problem, and it is reported recently to the bug tracker. Since the report contains spoilers, it is marked private (i.e., not everyone can see it). The problem is that some of the answers that should be accepted, are not. People are working on it.
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Excepted? do you mean accepted, expected, or are there really exceptions? I think you must mean some player responses which should trigger completion of the quest are not being understood (accepted) by the npc. Perhaps though once a response has been accepted in an early part of the quest it should no longer appear on (be excepted from) the list of valid responses from the later parts of the quest.
Aside from that it is good to get an indication that there is a definite problem.
Helping! good! Yay!
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Surely "expected" -- in the list of recognised answers to a question.
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Sometimes when typing
to too vfast eye I type completely different words dead that sound duh the same. Thanks for pointing that one out. And yes it should be 'accepted' :)
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Sometimes when typing to too vfast eye I type completely different words dead that sound duh the same. Thanks for pointing that one out. And yes it should be 'accepted' :)
Me too! :flowers: You can usually tell who is busy on these forums and who isn't by their responses and spelling. To perfect means to much time on their hands. :P
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or their browser has a spellchecker
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Mine has a spell checker, which did not help when I typed "excepted" instead of "accepted" and did not even help me avoiding replacing it correctly. I changed it into "accected" or something at first :) Luckily our forum has Bilbous to notify us of such errors :)
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or their browser has a spellchecker
Not my browser @ work. :(
Luckily our forum has Bilbous to notify us of such errors :)
Oh boy! He is going to have his work cut out for him with me then. :P Perhaps Bilbous can post in his siggy that he is PlaneShifts spell checker.
So just gaze upon my posts Lanarel and you will feel like a spelling god! But just don't godmod it! ;) ;D
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coffee fingers \o/
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har har.... well not too perfect too much of the time eh Zorbitol? errr, Zorbby, I mean Zorbels. hehheh. Mostly I do not bother if I am certain of the meaning, it is usually only when I am not sure whether English is a second language and someone might appreciate a pointer. Or of course I'm really really bored.....
Now I do not mind getting razzed a bit, I sure hope nobody will take offense if I bat the birdie back.
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Maps have been decided long ago to lie with the players, not the developers. However what I do think we could use more is roadsigns and banners saying which road leads where and which area is which...
Oh, Zan - finally your prayer got heard! The 3-directional sign at the abandoned village in the Bronze Doors area has a matching description now, and there are now 3 road signs near the clacker pit between Hydlaa, fortress and Gugrontid.
Comes times, comes more of them! :thumbup:
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I love the smell of game design progress in the morning.