PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mordraugion on November 13, 2007, 04:50:09 am
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Been thinking about the winch and some as yet unimplemented features like Megaras and Pterosaurs and I am unsure if this is an inconsistency or not.
Some basic premises, the council of Octarchs rule Yliakum making it in effect one country, although not implemented Flying transport is a fact of life.
So why does the winch need an official pass to use? bearing in mind that although flying animals are not cheap (outlaws rarely concern themselves with cost ;) ) it is easily bypassed.
There is no need for Country style borders as it is all under the same rule and those with evil or dishonest intentions wouldn't use that route anyway.
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Perhaps as if the average farmer could just use it, it would cost a lot more to mantain and would slow everything down, longer cues for rich merchants to put their goods on, would imagine it takes a while to load everything on, then get lifted up\down then load everything off, and repeat.
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I presumed that the winches were controlled by wealthy merchants and politicians, who then probably try to make a profit by selling temporary passes to allow people to use the winch. I do agree that the current in-game situation doesn't make much sense though.
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My impression was the passes were not to split up the levels into seperate countries exactly. The passes were just to limit who travelled using the Winch. It says that only the rich and privilaged are even allowed in the Winch area. People who are too poor for the Winch or the Ptersaurs must use the steps carved into the wall of the stalactite. If anyone could use it then where would the owners get their money?
It is like in the real world. I'll use the example of the large country known as Australia. Australia is vast, almost the size of Europe and in the middle there is virtually 'nothingness'. Poeple usually use aeroplanes to get from one side to the other because of the distance. However, not everyone can afford to fly everywhere. Airlines don't give their tickets away or they wouldn't make money. The 'Slow Way' in Yliakum is the Real World equivilent of having to drive all the way.
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ahh well I'm not saying it should be free, but as Dome is the "breadbasket" of Yliakum and given the readily available and fast transport of the winch one would expect economies of scale to drive prices down, the size and scale of it suggests jumbo jet rather than Concorde to me.
With regard to the travel across Australia, all you need is the cash, you don't need government permission to fly or drive any more than you need it to walk.
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Well, you don't need government permission to travel to the other levels. You just need it to use their machinery.
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one doesn't need government permission to hop on a plane/bus/whatever just the cash to buy a ticket
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you do in corrupt govenments
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Seconding Miadon in the first place, I had my trouble to see the current winch-situation making sense as well. In the end I just "had to" assume that the government wants to prevent poor citizens to enter that area just for the sake of being disgusted by them, or afraid of their possible anger. I see the winch-area as one only accessible for privileged and rich people. Its like the rulers dont fancy to see citizens dressed in rags roaming close to them - keep the poor on distance;) Like in medieval beggars and lepers may have been spit at by wealthy citizens and aristocraty, while in PS there are many of those beggars.
So in the end, yes: To me the government is obviously sort of polarizing, yet in no way fair, benevolent and kind, thus the restricted access.
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That's a way of looking at it, Velh but it doesn't add up for me. The Winch area doesn't have high class buildings, it looks exactly the same as the rest of Hydlaa. The NPCs there aren't all that wealthy either. There are a few important citizens there but at the same time also very regular folk or even crazy barbers. I just think that the settings could use some more consistency in that area.
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well the winch to me just looks out of place, especially that thing that looks like a computer in it. Also there doesn't actually seem to be a actual platform yet that would be the one you stand on to go up and down, unless I am looking at the wrong thing.
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Yeah Zan, I agree: My solution might have at least worked for me, but still left some bad taste, even if its said that rich and wealthy merchants are meant to be inside that area.
However, I think having the government shouldnt be saints. That would do well for creating some tension and also a broader spectrum on possible roleplays.
That way maybe only some cosmetical changes, richer looking houses and estates that is, would have to be added and it would make (more) sense? And yes, the NPCs there should be adjusted a bit more as well, as not everyone seems to necessarily be fitting such a noble area.
Also there doesn't actually seem to be a actual platform yet
Hm, that one I take for negligible and easily to be added. Its actually the same with the Eagle Bronze Doors.
that thing that looks like a computer in it
Yep, thats really a bit irritating, yet may work as an indicator for the present wealth in there.
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or even crazy barbers.
He's also a surgeon. Doctors do make good money. :)
that thing that looks like a computer in it
Yes, it looks like a computer - we were confused by it at first as well. But those things that look like monitors are actually plaques.
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I think what makes it worse it has all those buttons and stuff, which makes it look even more like a computer, even though it seems to be a mechanically driven winch by animals pulling it up.
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The hydlaa winch needs an official pass since every criminal could have access otherwise. Merchants can own only one flying animal, so they'd likely not be able to transport all of their goods through it, as they'd buy/sell wares in many different places. The majority of the goods would be carried through winches, and I don't think it'd be wanted by the merchants that their goods are exposed to everyone.
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imho criminals wouldn't go near the place, if they wanted to steal a merchants goods out on the road away from the cities is a much more viable option and with the amount of merchantantable goods entering, would it be even possible to stop and check everyones pass? And as for merchants individual security thats why they'd pay for caravan guards.
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I don't think so. After all a storehouse is a much better target then a guarded caravan. And through securing the winch, all the merchants in it would gain safety, they'd gladly pay some extra tax for that.
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The winch is there for the same reason any gated community is, to keep the rabble out. Honest or not as long as you are rich you are welcome, just try not to foul your own backyard. In other words you can trade in stolen goods all you want just make sure they were stolen elsewhere. If you start stealing within the community there will be trouble. Minions are tolerated as long as they keep in line.
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I don't think there is the slightest bit of inconsistency. The winch is a restricted area sure people can fly over the walls just like airplanes, does this mean there are no security checks when you land? The winch is the vital head of commerce in Yliakum's first level and it is well protected.
Brigands might not want to steal from the winch but I can assure you organized crime would (and probably does).
Megaras and pterosaurs too are a highly regulated commodity and the Octarchy keeps records on ownership and use of them.
To address the ideas about the Octachy I can tell you what I have said in the past it is a "Relaxed Totalitarian Regime" meaning over time it has gotten less draconian, but its roots would be downright distasteful to most of you all raised in the free world of modern times.
Rivalries between Octarchs and the families of the vigesimi still exist and you will get more on that later.
Poverty is not really the reason people are kept out, it is volume control. The Octarchy knows better than the average citizen what the needs of Yliakum are. You do not need to trust them as they do not need your trust.
For now let it be known the Octarchy does not care if you think the restricted access makes sense, it has its own reasons, and the power to maintain the situation as it is.
One thing most of you forget when you long for consistency is that there are "realities on the ground" to contend with. One example is "why can't I bribe my way in?" The actual reason is simple, if such a way existed, as soon as the first money bug came everyone would just buy their way in. (also the guard is upstanding)
If it hurts your feelings that you cannot get in because you will not quest, well . . . I am not sorry.
More means to get in will come in time but what can we do? You all want too much too fast.
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Well, please excuse me if that has been adresseed before (i didn't find anything through a search), but what is the size of the winch? i mean, the part that goes up and down. Because i find it an important element, when it comes to understand the economy between the levels, and its interest for merchants and other people.
EDIT : thanks Mordraugion for the answer, however due to my poor english, it seems you didn't get what i asked.
I imagine the winch like some kind of elevator, and i was wondering the surface of the platform. :)
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Ahh that clears up a lot thanks.
@Kougaro approximately 5km between levels
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Xillix, a pretty good description, and it does do a good job clarifying things. The inconsistencies Zan pointed out regarding the buildings around the winch looking the same has more to do with development than with a real indication of settings. It looks to me like the winch area was a rush job with the exception of the winch building itself which is fabulous imo. This is probably due to not enough time/manpower to make more stuff in that area. The difference isn't that the houses are poorer people houses, its that the houses models and textures are of a far lower quality. They are just copied and pasted from the rest of the town which is older, hence the discrepancy. I'll assume at minimum new textures there will show up one day and it will look a bit more consistent.
If it hurts your feelings that you cannot get in because you will not quest, well . . . I am not sorry.
Maybe not but I am...it feels more like a rousing game of "Guess the Phrase" with lots of running and walking between guesses than it does any sort of questing... I know there are lots of discussions about the quest system and this isn't the place for them, but I do feel that the lack of regard for people who find the highly limited system to be less than enthralling a bit on the condescending side.
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My saying that I do not mind people who do not quest not getting into the winch in no way indicates anything even remotely similar to my having no regard for players who do not quest.
The settings team puts in countless hours in many directions to consider all types of play. The winch is, for now, a quester's reward.
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I wish people would stop moaning about winch access and use their time usefully and do the quests - they are NOT so difficult to solve.
And I didn't need to be rich at all in order to get into winch but rather productive.
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For the record, I'm not complaining about not getting into the winch here .. I can get into the winch :P
Thanks for the explanations though!
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Just trying to cover all my bases Zan :)
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I figured getting in th winch is something similar to getting in a Guild (of old, not PS ones): it's mostly who you know, and who you are friends with, not always a question of money. Or Who you can impress. And that's about how it works. We have no connections per se, but if you impress the right people (quests), you get a good word. Eventually, you get in.
That's how i saw it....
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Hehe... can I put in my vote for a fourth option?
Hang Raithen out the top-story window by his heels, until he gives you the OK for access to Winch. *evil laugh*
:sweatdrop: I've been working at getting in for about the last month or so (on & off). And all because Frilaa's blasted husband went missing... *sigh*
Was it a clever trap that you can give a quest that requires winch access to complete, in order to encourage more questing, or just an oversight in quest-completion checks?
...Either way, I've really come to dislike Raithen. Hike all that way out to see him, you think he could be a LITTLE more pleasant to deal with.