PlaneShift

Fan Area => Fan Art => Topic started by: Rakhun on November 13, 2007, 06:33:14 pm

Title: A second Community Modelling Project, kinda
Post by: Rakhun on November 13, 2007, 06:33:14 pm
Hi everyone
a few days ago ruskie suggested on IRC that as an experiment the PS team could let the players design a map for Planeshift, this suggestion brought up some talk about Induane's great Community Modelling Project which had failed because the maps were not accepted by the PS team, although all players afaik wanted it in.
so I came up with an idea, since maps are only client side (except for NPC's walking though) we could work on maps and just distribute them to the players,
since they are the ones actually playing on them anyway!

I was very interested in this and started working a bit on a Kran house, for Grok Idon, despite the fact I'm not an "arty" person, and if things go well I plan it to be at 242, 52, -515 on bdroad1 (there is currently a big invisible wall in the way there but I'll move that).
I got a bit carried away with it and "finished" (there is room for improvement) the exterior of it but the interior is still blank so there is much to be done
grokhouse.zip (http://ojafighters.uk.to/grokhouse.zip) (Blender format)
bdroad1.zip (Removed for not fitting the settings, maybe it can fit somewhere else in the future)

The main difference from the original community modelling project is that it won't matter if it's accepted by the team, only if it's accepted by the players (and maybe if enough people show that they want it by using it the team might accept it  ;D ), this also means though that new maps cannot be made, but existing ones can be expanded, like bdroad1.

Problems (just things to avoid):
PortalsA bit difficult but possible
New sectorsPositions won't be saved in sectors the server doesn't know
New mapsI'm not sure what would happen, but it won't work without it being on the server too

Note: As new releases come official additions might take the place from additions made here so there is no guarantee it will stay. I plan though to have all additions backed up so they can be added to the new version of the maps, likely scripted
Title: Re: A second Community Modelling Project, kinda
Post by: Kieve on November 13, 2007, 07:39:06 pm
Quote from: Rakhun on November 13, 2007, 06:33:14 pm
...(and maybe if enough people show that they want it by using it the team might accept it ;D )...

;) The flaw in your logic there is that only things which fit into the settings will be approved. It doesn't matter how many people want skyscrapers or light-sabers/Halo energy swords, or the GTCv Deimos, if it's not Yliakum-based, it's simply not gonna happen.

However, I'm not about to decry modding (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=30544.0) either. Personally, I'd be very interested to see what comes of this. On the other paw, I do encourage anyone with enough talent and skill to look into joining Art officially - Talad knows we could use the help...
Title: Re: A second Community Modelling Project, kinda
Post by: Rakhun on November 13, 2007, 08:28:14 pm
Skyscrapers and lightsabers are of course not what's supposed to come out of this :) and that it fits with the settings and all definitely is no guarantee for it to be approved.
And I won't support with any help for items that does not fit the settings either.
but how can you see a skyscraper when you look at that kran house? :P
Title: Re: A second Community Modelling Project, kinda
Post by: Kieve on November 13, 2007, 11:41:44 pm
*Kieve chuckles dryly*

I didn't mean to imply that your particular construction was a skyscraper. I don't use Blender, so I didn't look at it. I was merely pointing out a small hitch in the notion of things getting approved based on player popularity.

Also, it occurs to me that anyone who ventures off on this personal endeavor should probably read through this (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=11028.0) - just in case they have hopes of it being dev-approved.
Title: Re: A second Community Modelling Project, kinda
Post by: ThomPhoenix on November 13, 2007, 11:49:19 pm
Hahahaha, no.
The server has to load the map too.
This doesn't mean you can't change the map, but you can't add portals or change the map size.
Title: Re: A second Community Modelling Project, kinda
Post by: Rakhun on November 13, 2007, 11:54:06 pm
No.
the aim is not to get it approved, it was just a small note.
the aim of this is to extend the world to what it should be, openly by anyone who feels like giving it a try.

Quote
Be constructive, or be silent.
< are you really trying to be constructive?

ThomPhoenix:
I think adding portals to other existing maps would work, but as I see it it is not needed.
I'm unsure what you mean about changing the map size, it is of course possible to extend it to areas where there currently is void (as long as you don't go out of bounds which would respawn you if you walked to there)
Edit: The only difference between if the server has the modified map or not is how NPCs move, without having the map on the server NPCs could walk through added objects
Title: Re: A second Community Modelling Project, kinda
Post by: Kieve on November 14, 2007, 12:13:06 am
Quote from: Rakhun on November 13, 2007, 11:54:06 pm
Quote
Be constructive, or be silent.
< are you really trying to be constructive?
Of course. I apologize for your confusion, however. Given that I've been working as part of the Art department since May or so, I take a personal interest in anything that could potentially help Yliakum grow, asset-wise. Such as one of Xillix's recent polls (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=30725.0).

What I'm trying to encourage here is player involvement that might actually see a lasting contribution to the game. What happens when you go and make a beautiful map edit, only to find out that a fantastic new area has been released in the latest client build and your tweaks are no longer valid? Despite what you may read into here, I'm encouraging player involvement. I'd just rather not see someone throw up their hands in frustration because Settings and Art didn't ask for their input when making new additions*.



*This is only one example.
Title: Re: A second Community Modelling Project, kinda
Post by: Rakhun on November 14, 2007, 12:27:49 am
I guess I can add that as a note, that things might not last, but I do intend to have all additions kept backed up separately, easy to apply to new releases of the map, as long as it still fits there, if it does not then something useful has probably filled the spot. I must say though that it mostly sounds like you're trying to say this is not possible, which I am fully aware that it is. I guess it should also be noted that I have some experience with the Crystal Space map format and how to modify it.

let's see now if anyone is actually interested in this or if all the great people from the original community modelling project abandonned PS after the rejection =-.-=
Title: Re: A second Community Modelling Project, kinda
Post by: ThomPhoenix on November 14, 2007, 02:58:11 pm
Quote from: Rakhun on November 13, 2007, 11:54:06 pm
ThomPhoenix:
I think adding portals to other existing maps would work, but as I see it it is not needed.
I'm unsure what you mean about changing the map size, it is of course possible to extend it to areas where there currently is void (as long as you don't go out of bounds which would respawn you if you walked to there)
Edit: The only difference between if the server has the modified map or not is how NPCs move, without having the map on the server NPCs could walk through added objects
Of course you can't just add a portal to a map. If so I'd just edit Hydlaa plaza to have several portals for me to all parts of the current PS world. And I guess you can add an area where a void is now, but wouldn't the server flag this as illegal? It used to be possible to use BugPlug to teleport yourself around the world undetected, but I remember Xordan saying that the server detects this now. I'm sure placing new non-portal buildings on a map would work, but I don't think you can just edit and expand existing maps, and surely not create a new one.

Of course I encourage this project and I'd like to see the outcome. I just don't want people to be disappointed later when things don't work out as they thought.
Title: Re: A second Community Modelling Project, kinda
Post by: Rakhun on November 14, 2007, 05:56:27 pm
So you have portals to all over the world from Hydlaa? =o.O=
cause I just tried it and adding portals is indeed possible, I'm just not sure how to get the positions completely right.

I guess getting flagged as illegal can't be good, but I know being outside the intended areas of a map is possible without anything happening, as long as you don't go too far in which case you will get a message about being out of bounds and respawn, though that's a long way.

It sounds good that you say you encourage the project, but posting your guesses makes it sound like you're saying it won't work at all and discouraging it, if you do see any issues then sure let me know and I can add that to the list of things that can't be done on the first post, but don't say my entire logic is flawed (I know you weren't the one who said that, but what you're saying sounds similar). I shall make sure to make the list more clear and list-like though
Title: Re: A second Community Modelling Project, kinda
Post by: ThomPhoenix on November 14, 2007, 07:31:28 pm
Portals and location teleports are arranged by the server, right? If so, I don't see how you can create a portal to Ojaveda in Hydlaa Plaza and walk through it, without the server saying "Hey, you can't do that." Correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: A second Community Modelling Project, kinda
Post by: Rakhun on November 14, 2007, 07:41:13 pm
You don't believe me despite the fact I tried it? :/

The client does send a message to the server when changing to another sector to let it know, but the server telling the client where it is only occurs on /teleport I believe (not when the player changes sector)

You can try this yourself by shutting down a test server and then run through a portal before the connection times out.

This is pretty  :offtopic: though, since adding portals to various places probably wouldn't fit the settings anyway (are there any holes in the world leading to DR perhaps?)
So do you have anything to contribute to the project instead? maybe what the interior of a kran house looks like?
Title: Re: A second Community Modelling Project, kinda
Post by: Eletiy on November 14, 2007, 08:13:01 pm
Quote
You can try this yourself by shutting down a test server and then run through a portal before the connection times out.

An when you reconnect to the server that map is still loaded? If I understood you right, you want to create a new map and add just a portal to and existing map so that the player can walk there. And what's withe NPC's and Mob's? A map without any Npc's or mob's will be really boring.. And if it is really possible to add portals to an existig map this needs to be fixed by the devs, otherwise someone could simply relase an modded map of hydlaa with portals to all maps of yliakum... this would be counted as cheating then. So I don't see a real future for makeing a "pirate-map" ;).. anyway, if the community can create a map with the same quality as the actual ps maps are and it fits to the settings then the Dev's will take it I believe.. just my thoughts
Title: Re: A second Community Modelling Project, kinda
Post by: Rakhun on November 14, 2007, 08:34:40 pm
No, sorry, there is a misunderstanding there, a new map cannot be added due to some server stuff, but existing maps can be expanded (not necessarily in size)
what I have started is a good example, a house for Grok Idon.
Grok Idon says he does not move much so he considers "here" his home, so I plan to insert that house into the bdroad1 map quite close to where he is standing.

Although it might not be very related since it's not a new map, NPCs and mobs cannot be added, imo there should be more of them there and some other places. More trees too actually, that I could add :)

You're right about the security issue of the possibility to add portals like that, let's hope no one who would misuse the knowledge finds out how, I guess I should be quiet about how to do it then..
and about the disconnecting from the server, the point was that the server is not needed to change sector, I don't really know how this would work with a new map that is not on the server but I don't think it would be pretty (note: this project is not about making any new maps, just expanding existing ones)

After talking to Induane I have decided to post the current progress of Grok's house inserted into bdroad1 so people can walk around on it instead of just examining it in Blender. I will do that shortly in the first post
Title: Re: A second Community Modelling Project, kinda
Post by: Induane on November 14, 2007, 09:39:51 pm
Quote
yliakum... this would be counted as cheating then. So I don't see a real future for makeing a "pirate-map" Wink.. anyway, if the community can create a map with the same quality as the actual ps maps are and it fits to the settings then the Dev's will take it I believe.. just my thoughts

Doubtful.  See the original community modeling project:  http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=26659.0 (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=26659.0)

Quote
After talking to Induane I have decided to post the current progress of Grok's house inserted into bdroad1 so people can walk around on it instead of just examining it in Blender. I will do that shortly in the first post

Why what an excellent idea! :) I also have another suggestion that I'll talk to you about in irc when I get the chance :) would be extra fun! 

Good luck with this, I'll take a look at helping a bit if I get the chance... even though I promised myself never again for PS... :D DERN YOU!
Title: Re: A second Community Modelling Project, kinda
Post by: Rakhun on November 14, 2007, 11:39:58 pm
Sorry for pulling you back into the swamp of PS, Induane :P

I finally got the merging done and the map can be downloaded from http://ojafighters.uk.to/bdroad1.zip (http://ojafighters.uk.to/bdroad1.zip).
There were some issues related to XML indentation that made it take longer than expected, but it's now scripted to be quicker when there are updates to it :)

The great suggestion by Induane would mean smaller downloads for progresses, and I hope I can do that soon,
this first version needs to be full since I changed an object already existing in it, that annoying wall (named playerBoundary) and I will probably change it a little bit more because at one spot it goes into a big part of the road (to the left after leaving Hydlaa), and with that update I think I might get the suggestion in (it is also needed to be full for implementing that) :)
Title: Re: A second Community Modelling Project, kinda
Post by: Jeraphon on November 15, 2007, 03:16:32 pm
Wow, what a great idea!

Too bad Grok Idon's not supposed to have a house on the road. He's a travelling merchant who just happens to be in that spot. If he'd have anything, it would be a large goujah-pulled wagon.
Title: Re: A second Community Modelling Project, kinda
Post by: Rakhun on November 15, 2007, 05:03:48 pm
He said himself he does not move much though, and he considers "here" his home, maybe something should be fixed there? (I think I asked "where are you from?")

Do you happen to know any other kran who needs a home though?  :)
Title: Re: A second Community Modelling Project, kinda
Post by: Jeraphon on November 15, 2007, 05:47:59 pm
He says he doesn't move much because he CAN'T yet. Would you prefer he says that he travels all the roads continually, only to have people go "But he's standing right there and he doesn't move!"
Title: Re: A second Community Modelling Project, kinda
Post by: Rakhun on November 15, 2007, 06:12:46 pm
good point..  :surrender:

do you know any other kran who could need a house though?
Edit: Got a no from Xillix, so I guess this thread will now be open for suggestions :)
Title: Re: A second Community Modelling Project, kinda
Post by: saladasalad on November 16, 2007, 02:10:22 am
Wouldn't it be possible to place the house somewhere in the wilderness and create an 'absent' Kran (like Kada-El) npc that may or may not return at some time in the future. The Kran house and npc could even be introduced in a quest and/or a gm event.

I think peoples art should be put on the server if it could be fit into the settings, not only if it already does fit in the settings. There are lots of good RP'ers in Yliakum that could help flesh out the background and settings and iron out the creases... if there weren't such stringent requirements for contributing. The worst that could happen is that people think it looks crap, and that's a good enough reason to just remove the art and all references to it in the settings. PS could grow much faster and fluidly with that sort of approach... everyone loves new art and models! And surely creating skins for different types of swords, minor alterations to models and textures, etc.. could easily be handled by a small group of dedicated, non-experienced fans. Surely, slightly dodgy art is better than none at all!

Just my opinions, don't flame me! :D
Title: Re: A second Community Modelling Project, kinda
Post by: Jeraphon on November 16, 2007, 02:21:23 am
Quote
I think peoples art should be put on the server if it could be fit into the settings, not only if it already does fit in the settings.

I disagree. Doing that creates a completely disjointed world. We want to escape the trap of settings having to work with existing art, and move into settings working in conjunction with art to make things that make more sense.

But by all means, if you're interested in making things for Planeshift, why not apply to the art department? Getting your application processed is easier than ever! What better way to show dedication?
Title: Re: A second Community Modelling Project, kinda
Post by: Rakhun on November 16, 2007, 06:50:54 am
1. Age
2. Art department is closed development, even so that lower members of the art team cannot access and improve maps (just what I've heard). What I would like is open development so that anyone who wants and has the skills/learns the skills can join in, like the original community modelling project.
And if art made here gets approved that would be great of course, but if it does not players will still be able to use it if they wish.
Edit: 3. You're only supposed to be on one team, and for me that would not be art team

Edit: I agree settings cannot be designed after the art, art should be made to show what the settings already say
Title: Re: A second Community Modelling Project, kinda
Post by: Xillix Queen of Fools on November 16, 2007, 03:16:36 pm
1. well hurry up and get older.

2. When you are within the team you essentially have access to what is NEEDED for your tasks. The perpetual clinging to an old idea forwarded by former devs or anyone else is off base. I have already pointed you to the Adraax project, which is still going and always looking for people.

3. I currently lead 2 teams, and several others in the dev team have cross departmental responsibilities.

4. If you can remain patient, I will work toward another thread with the art dept leads to help generate some needed art assets in the spirit of the first "user generated content" thread Karyuu and I spear-headed.
Title: Re: A second Community Modelling Project, kinda
Post by: Dihenis on November 21, 2007, 05:33:48 am
Quote from: Xillix Queen of Fools on November 16, 2007, 03:16:36 pm
2. When you are within the team you essentially have access to what is NEEDED for your tasks. The perpetual clinging to an old idea forwarded by former devs or anyone else is off base. I have already pointed you to the Adraax project, which is still going and always looking for people.

the thread was kind of buried, and if you count only me working on it kinda then yes(or at least i haven't seen any activity on their forums for a while). art department's doing a good job as it is right now, and i understand everyone wants it to go along faster, me included, but many suggestions here would dilute the quality/consistency of the project