PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Sangwa on November 22, 2007, 05:23:55 pm
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This wish follows a process of thought I've been developing through the discussion of several different aspects. It leads me to believe that the setting would benefit from the following combined implementations (some of these have been discussed, but not grouped):
-Removal of Progression points.
Why: Because progression points make fighting a priority through OOC means.
-Increasing road travelling danger + periodic sieges from beast from the labyrinth, rogues, etc.
Why: Because there must be a plausible reason why people must learn how to fight.
-Interbreeding should be revised and Krans shouldn't marry.
Why: There should be a reason why the races are still distinct and proud: it should be because even though they cooperate without racism, there should be this feeling where members of the same race couple with the same race (in normal psycological conditions) and therefore consider their race to be special. The current system does not cope with biology or psycology considering that if they currently can all breed and find each other attractive they should consider themselves a single race (ie there seems to be no distinctions in taste [a menki finding a furrless female ylian attractive] and biology [they can interbreed and produce fertile descendency], like it usually happens amongst different races in most settings and in real life)
Krans not marrying is pretty obvious I guess: they do not reproduce, they do not have hormones, they are unattractive rocks.
-NPC handed quests should be more general and capable of being role-played between players.
Why: Because NPCs should be consistent parts of this MMORPG instead of being accessories. And because that's the only reason I see to have the current NPC dialogue system: if you can not role play with them, why should you care how immersive the system can be?
Concluding: This is a sum of aspects that I believe would improve the setting and the role play experience. Why? Because together, these would give Role Players clear guide-lines and improve how the system supports their gaming.
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Removal of PP:
Plethora of threads about this, I don't really see some unique point about it here.
Road danger and Labyrinth sieges:
Discussed many times and is already planned, it will just take time.
Interbreeding:
I agree with this mostly, but why shouldn't Kran marry or at least have relationships with more depth? They're genderless and are made of a kind of rock, but that doesn't mean they can't love. Just like being made of rock doesn't imply you can't think. Of course Kran aren't the brightest of individuals, but they would very likely have basic emotions.
Quests:
Do you want to be able to roleplay with NPCs (hard) or do you want quests to better fit in with general roleplay? I usually roleplay doing a quest, it's just so awkward when you're asking for quest solutions between [brackets].
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The quests thing is that I can't mention the fact that I helped Sharven with some artifact or such as anyone I say it to will say, oh I did exactly the same thing.
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And it will remain that way until the Settings Team has been replaced by a self-roleplaying AI that's linked to the game server.
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And it will remain that way until the Settings Team has been replaced by a self-roleplaying AI that's linked to the game server.
I don't think adding in some more random factors is that hard. For example instead of Harquist always asking for two iron ores, why don't you let him need five iron ores or three coal lumps from time to time? Add in a randomness in the number and type of items required, the NPC that needs to be visited, etc. and you already went a long way I'd say.
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They're genderless and are made of a kind of rock, but that doesn't mean they can't love.
Yes, yes it does.
And love is a "basic emotion"? Okay...
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I was about to make a remark about how important love has been in the survival of species, but then realised that Kran don't need partners to procreate and thus love wouldn't play a necessary role.
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If they had evolved...
Considering the Kran were created by Talad we just don't know if they can love.
The Gods seem able to do it... so I imagine Talad would have allowed his creations to do it.
And it will remain that way until the Settings Team has been replaced by a self-roleplaying AI that's linked to the game server.
I don't think adding in some more random factors is that hard. For example instead of Harquist always asking for two iron ores, why don't you let him need five iron ores or three coal lumps from time to time? Add in a randomness in the number and type of items required, the NPC that needs to be visited, etc. and you already went a long way I'd say.
I've thought about this many times. The only plausible way to make the quest system not have multiple people go on the exact same dangerous and epic quests is to limit quests to Harn needing ore, wanting apples and such things.
Sure "I got Harn four apples" - "Yeah... well I got him five!" sounds like it could lead somewhere over time... but I doubt it. Atleast not without turning into "<random NPC> needs <random item> from <random NPC>" And so on and so forth.
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Yeah, the creation of the Kran certainly shows utter complexity and long-time planning, which may in turn allow Talad to grant them with as much complex feelings as love. A'yup.
I've thought about this many times. The only plausible way to make the quest system not have multiple people go on the exact same dangerous and epic quests is to limit quests to Harn needing ore, wanting apples and such things.
Replace the idiotic character progression system. From that point make rogues at least semi-dangerous for everyone; grouping and body-guarding more important.
Replace quest system. Make it that dialogues don't cause any problems at all.
If grouping is important and dialogues don't take long enough to have groups disband, you can limit amount of quests and introduce this:
Create several functions (or however you call this in c++)
These should revolve around:
- Randomised rumours available for an NPC, with certain variables influencing outcome of randomising, depending on the assumed personality of the NPC. To fill up gaps (variables) in this function, introduce a sub-function:
- Quest randomiser. If quest is activated, associate it with certain location, perhaps create random names for NPCs that play the role of antagonists or key figures in a quest.
- Personality randomiser. Make the antagonists vary in personalities. This doesn't have to be complex. His level of reaction to words? His focus on warfare? This will promote variety in groups. So maybe you have six warriors within your party, but what if the antagonist and his five henchmen are just as, if not more, skilled in combat? Perhaps a charismatic character that can intimidate the opponent, or in any way plant a seed of doubt, will sway the situation to your advantage? Or how about a mage? What if he'll bestow confusion upon their feeble minds? Then again, keep in mind the enemy may have a mage on his lead as well. What if he counters the spells you cast? Perhaps it would be a good idea to order a few men to get rid of opponent's mage (or at least engage him with some tank) before introducing your mage?
Step three is introducing all this randomising to the characters. The current system doesn't support this in any way, but it's actually very easy to change. Easier than all the above stuff for sure.
No doubt, it would be quite the ambitious project. However, nowhere near as ambitious as the NPC dialogue system that the devs support.
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Yeah, the creation of the Kran certainly shows utter complexity and long-time planning, which may in turn allow Talad to grant them with as much complex feelings as love. A'yup.
So players should play Krans as if they were robots?
Who says Talad could grant them a feeling such as pain... or hate... or even the ability to like something.
You are basing your complete argument on looks. Perhaps love is easier to create than looks? Do you have information on how Talad created the Kran? Perhaps it was done with feeling in which case love would obviously be there, or was it c++? Please, let us in on the vast amounts of knowledge you seem to possess.
[sarcasm countered... w00t]
I've thought about this many times. The only plausible way to make the quest system not have multiple people go on the exact same dangerous and epic quests is to limit quests to Harn needing ore, wanting apples and such things.
Replace the idiotic character progression system. From that point make rogues at least semi-dangerous for everyone; grouping and body-guarding more important.
Replace quest system. Make it that dialogues don't cause any problems at all.
If grouping is important and dialogues don't take long enough to have groups disband, you can limit amount of quests and introduce this:
Create several functions (or however you call this in c++)
These should revolve around:
- Randomised rumours available for an NPC, with certain variables influencing outcome of randomising, depending on the assumed personality of the NPC. To fill up gaps (variables) in this function, introduce a sub-function:
- Quest randomiser. If quest is activated, associate it with certain location, perhaps create random names for NPCs that play the role of antagonists or key figures in a quest.
- Personality randomiser. Make the antagonists vary in personalities. This doesn't have to be complex. His level of reaction to words? His focus on warfare? This will promote variety in groups. So maybe you have six warriors within your party, but what if the antagonist and his five henchmen are just as, if not more, skilled in combat? Perhaps a charismatic character that can intimidate the opponent, or in any way plant a seed of doubt, will sway the situation to your advantage? Or how about a mage? What if he'll bestow confusion upon their feeble minds? Then again, keep in mind the enemy may have a mage on his lead as well. What if he counters the spells you cast? Perhaps it would be a good idea to order a few men to get rid of opponent's mage (or at least engage him with some tank) before introducing your mage?
Step three is introducing all this randomising to the characters. The current system doesn't support this in any way, but it's actually very easy to change. Easier than all the above stuff for sure.
No doubt, it would be quite the ambitious project. However, nowhere near as ambitious as the NPC dialogue system that the devs support.
I can see this working in a hack and slash, Draklar. Very little else.
I don't see how there can be a nice storyline in this. In fact, randomization like this would lead to an even worse "I helped so and so save his three children" "He had four last week..." "I helped him save 8 yesterday...".
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Again, I think it's being ignored the fact that between different species there are usually mechanisms (behavior-based, biological or geographical) that prevent interbreeding. If within a specie you notice that different races do not interbreed easily, this tendency is certainly a lot more strong between different species.
I'm not saying Krans can't love. But I'm saying that it makes no sense that they are attracted and capable of coupling with other sentients for no reason (since they have no biological needs and are incapable of satisfying other race's biological needs.) Therefore it should be uncommon for Krans to marry, since they will bond with other people but not create intimate situations, because they do not require them. Remember that the love between couples is not the only type of love.
Talad was a God and Laanx was a God. They're of the same species and apparently they had genders (considering Talad is referred as a "he" and Laanx as a "she".) Krans are genderless.
About quests I am saying we need general quests. Hard roleplaying is done between the role players and with the aid of GMs and their events.
EDIT: I was thinking something about the lines of what Nurahk said. Limits and such. This would allow players to roleplay it "Heh. They all try to suck up to Harnquist. He doesn't even have to pick his apples." "Couldn't get any work from Harnquist today. He says I still need to roughen up."
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And it will remain that way until the Settings Team has been replaced by a self-roleplaying AI that's linked to the game server.
:'(
Anyway...about krans. Talad himself told me that krans would marry because they would feel the need to group, and to help each other raise their offspring. Remember that krans are a cultural and a social race, just as all the other races are. Were it not so, they wouldn't form cities and such. It is true that they don't need partners to procreate, ThomPhoenix, but they would choose to mutually share the results of their personal procreations. I understand that it's difficult for us OOC to wrap our heads around the concepts of an asexually reproducing species because none of us reproduces that way. But I digress.
Sangwa, I'm not sure why you don't think krans have no biological needs, because they do. They just don't happen to be identical to those of the other races.
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So players should play Krans as if they were robots?
Derghir don't experience love. They have an unique set of behaviour, which better fits who they are. They don't behave like robots. Savvy?
I can see this working in a hack and slash, Draklar. Very little else.
Which doesn't change the fact, more than apple collecting is possible.
If you want a deep storyline, there's a world of single player RPGs waiting for you out there.
A game is supposed to have a purpose; direction. Something that will attract players. If you create plotline that won't be nearly as good as that of a generic cRPG, then what's the point of making any plotline at all? It's way better to focus on character interaction, which will prosper if quests are merely background to the party's intrapersonal progression. Travel across cities, seek for any rumours, sometimes rest in taverns. It's not important what the adventure is. What's important is that adventurers can interact and sometimes boast about their achievements. Each game genre has its advantages and disadvantages. There are things some simply cannot cover, while other basically thrive in. Here, roleplay itself should be focused around the community, not features of a single player rpg. It's a MMO after all. And if someone cannot accept that, why on earth would he strive to make a mmorpg?
The bottom line is:
If I want a game that has an astonishing plot, I won't play Planeshift, but whatever the cRPG market has to offer now (and that's what I actually do).
But I don't know, maybe I'm just some sort of an anomaly. How about you, Khado? Do the Planeshift quests fascinate you so much that you have way over hundred of adventures completed so far and still play day after day, striving to experience all of them?
Jeraphon: I kind of enjoy hanging out with my friends and all, but just drinking beer with other people doesn't make me want to marry them (yes, I don't tend to get that drunk).
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About the whole Kran thing. Sangwa, you are assuming that they evolved, which they didn't. There is no reason for them not to have love, nor is there reason for them to have love. They were created by a god and so, it is up to that god if they have love. Stop thinking of evolution :P
Draklar, you missed my point completely. You're argument, as far as I can tell, is that Kran don't experience love because they don't look like Talad put much thought into creating them. The only way that you can back up your claim is if you know how Talad created them. What was involved. Did he think them into existence? You can't know and so, you're argument is also flawed.
Moving on to quests.
I've completely a good handful of quests, yes. As have many others.
You're basically setting out the limits of what PlaneShift can and can't be - what is should and shouldn't be.
Perhaps quests are there for when you don't have any buddies online?
I understand what you are saying but, I disagree. Not every MMO has to be a hack and slash as you seem to be claiming.
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Draklar, you missed my point completely. You're argument, as far as I can tell, is that Kran don't experience love because they don't look like Talad put much thought into creating them. The only way that you can back up your claim is if you know how Talad created them. What was involved. Did he think them into existence? You can't know and so, you're argument is also flawed.
"When Talad, imbued with the crystal's power, came close to her to create the first creature of his people, a tempest of chaos burst forth from the god's hands and hit Laanx on her face, penetrating deeply into her body, and she became forever disfigured.
A new people were born from the rocks thanks to Talad, and they called themselves "Kran"."
Oh yes, the word chaos certainly shows long-time planning and great precision. Not to mention disfiguring his best friend, which shows Talad certainly knew what he's doing.
If that wasn't enough, Laanx needed to observe the magic ways for such a long time to know how it works. But not Talad! Oh, no. He's one heck of a self-tought guy. He sees Laanx create some people, gets all jealous and before you know it, he can turn rocks into creatures capable of love and everything!
Yup, I can see the flaw in my reasoning.
I've completely a good handful of quests, yes. As have many others.
And now answer without rephrasing my question.
I understand what you are saying but, I disagree. Not every MMO has to be a hack and slash as you seem to be claiming.
I seem to be claiming quests should be merely background to character interaction, do I seem not? Is background a focus?
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You've managed to miss the point again.
You do not know if Kran can love unless you know how Talad creates life in very precise detail.
Of course quests are background to character interaction. I don't see how that's in question.
What's in question is what quest should and should not be.
Quest need to have some storyline in them. At least from time to time. I don't see how you can do it with a randomized quest system such as yours.
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I really have to sell my book on Kran Origin one day, you people got it all wrong ;) If only I could cut&paste it from an old style book to a new one. Personally I thought Kran stuck together due to magnetism or static electricity more so than any social factors :D
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I agree that it might be better not to have progression points. I also think gaining progression points fighting and then using them to get better at crafting is not a good setup. I am going to kill a rat so that in doing so I will learn how to weave a basket. How realistic is that?
Anyway about Krans having emotion keep this in mind. Whenever a fantasy race is created we almost always give them very human traits. Think of each species more as aliens (I know this is a reach but do it for the desired effect). If each "alian" race develops on thier own evolutionarily, socially, cultrally and technologically why does one race Have to posses a very human characteristic? I just read a book that had an alien race that reproduced from spores so they had no emotions and very little free will. In fact they did not feel pain. You may say thats outrageos how can any creature function well without a basic HUMAN trait? The aliens did not need emotions because of how they reproduced so on a evolutionary standpoint emotions gave the aliens no edge so emotions were never developed.
I know this example isn't of somthing in planeshift but it still, at least in my mind, helps to iluminate why an organisim dosn't have to have certain attributes.
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Even if kran do not have emotions of which I am uncertain, at least one tried to model them by writing a love poem. Having not seen the poem in question except for snippets I can not tell if it is written to some unrelated kran or to the authors own gemmated child.
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I agree with Draklar here... I don't see a definite goal for the background/quests. Most of them are suitable in a single player environment, they simply cannot be roleplayed around or otherwise at all (although some of them are quite enjoyable).
But still for a MMORPG I think the focus should be more on quests which involve more players and that can be roleplayed. For example: A captain in the Bronze Doors fortress may request supplies as many times as he wishes. Jirosh's love story, as beautiful as it may be, has no place in a multi-player roleplaying environment.
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But still for a MMORPG I think the focus should be more on quests which involve more players and that can be roleplayed. For example: A captain in the Bronze Doors fortress may request supplies as many times as he wishes.
Thanks for the feedback. We try to have a mixture of both quests that involve just fetching supplies and ones that feel more suitable for a single player. The quests you'd like - the repeatable ones - do have their place, we agree. But we do have other considerations:
- High-quality rewards. If a quest is repeatable, rarer or high-quality rewards will be less valuable.
- Factions. We want to avoid players' obtaining faction levels so high they become meaningless, with no current way to cap factions except by limiting the number of quests in which you can attain them. Hence, you can only get a positive faction with someone via a non-repeatable quest.
A lot of the non-repeatable "single-player" quests add characterization to the NPCs. It's still quite possible to include them in your RPs without mentioning the quest itself. Does your RP really just consist of "I did this quest, I did that quest?"
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Jeraphon, next release it will be possible to specify max values for faction prerequisites. ;)
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So, magic and gods are excuses to have a flawed setting? There should always be a level of coherence, despite of the imaginable or unimaginable content.
You are telling me Diabolis, Krans, etc find each other attractive and can engage. Krans coupling with Krans is understandable. They could simulate carbon based emotions and feel inclined to protect their progeny in grouping, I can buy that: it's easy to grasp.
But you are telling me a Kran can feel, and it is actually normal (since it is supported by the community), attracted by a Diaboli. I doubt Krans would find Diabolis suitable mates and vice-versa and therefore there should be some kind of law established to protect each race from the demented (ie zoofilia including rational beings)
The fact that mammals in PS can interbreed like crazy logically means that they are all one species with different possible characteristics. Understand that if Race A and Race B have no problems interbreeding and creating viable generation they automatically both belong to the same species 1.
We can ignore genetics, sure. But can we ignore logic? If they can all bond and mate, and if for me, an Ylian, it is equally well to marry a dwarf, an ylian or an enkidukai (because I am able to find them attractive and also interbreed with them) then would there be much of a distinction between our races and customs? I think not.
I believe this current notion makes races more alike than they should be, and ridiculously so.
About Quests:
-High-Quality Rewards: should be offered either because of an amazing job, or because of a very fortunate situation. GM oriented events would be more suitable to distribute these than quests, though there could be some quests that only very "qualified" people could attain, repeated or not (depends on the effort involved).
-Factions: Either repeating quests does not award additional faction, or earning faction with some group should decrease the faction level the character has towards other groups.
-NPC:
There should be other ways to know NPCs other than doing quests you can't tell anyone. Yes, good I know there's a Kran which likes poetry. What good does that do to me, if I can't actually role play that it exists because I'll get a "That Kran? I wrote a poem for him not long ago." "Curious. That's what I just did." "Oh. It was just that one too..."
There is a lot more to our RP besides quests. In fact, my RP is actually everything but quests. Hence this wish.
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-Factions: Either repeating quests does not award additional faction, or earning faction with some group should decrease the faction level the character has towards other groups.
That's what I'm hoping for too, eventually, but we're unable to do that yet.
Jeraphon, next release it will be possible to specify max values for faction prerequisites.
Thom, I understand where you're coming from, but that creates whole new problems too. I wouldn't want someone who did many different quests to have the same reward as someone who gave Harnquist apples a hundred times, nor would I want someone who decided to give Harnquist apples a hundred times to be unduly penalized with a max faction as a quest prereq.
There should be other ways to know NPCs other than doing quests you can't tell anyone.
Try talking to them.
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The only negatives I have are with various non-intelligent creatures which doesn't make much sense to me.
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The only negatives I have are with various non-intelligent creatures which doesn't make much sense to me.
We have plans for that later, in terms of aggression and such.
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But how if I killed a bunch of rats how would the other rats know about it. I'd understand if they were semi-intelligent and could communicate... but they are rats :P
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You bear the stink of dead rats on you. That's a stink that don't come off. ;)
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Eww! *showers repeatedly*
Anyway, I still don't see why but that is a whole other topic.