PlaneShift

Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Xillix Queen of Fools on November 22, 2007, 09:20:52 pm

Title: Introductions for Players
Post by: Xillix Queen of Fools on November 22, 2007, 09:20:52 pm
On a different topic . . .
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Mordraugion on November 22, 2007, 10:01:10 pm
Voted for invisible but it'd be good if the more one saw of an unintroduced char/npc a label appeared "Seen before" or some such
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Rongar Elani on November 22, 2007, 10:09:40 pm
I voted for invisible aswell, and I also think there should be a way to recognize someone, other than through /introduce. But since I don't exactly know how the new feature will look like in the end, I shall not mention the solution I would have for that. Last time I did, my post got deleted anyways.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Eodun on November 22, 2007, 10:23:22 pm
Invisible 100%. Lots of ways to deal with problematic issues, some very nice to RP.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: peeg on November 22, 2007, 10:31:23 pm
I voted for brackets because i simply can't imagine how PS could stay enjoyable for non-hardcore-RPers with the plannend system as it is now (on SVN).
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Lolitra, Celorrim Purrty Twins on November 22, 2007, 10:31:43 pm
I would like to see an /introduce [insert name] to [insert name] too.. heheh...  but I tend to RP all this anyway, and use the labels to recognise....   also if you introduce an /introduce...  perhaps there aught to be a /describe... too? but it is all so complicated for code I would guess?

Sheesh don't I waffle hhehee
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Sen on November 22, 2007, 10:44:21 pm
In my opinion the introducing adresses only a small 'problem' but will add several others when choosing the radical option with invisible lables and suppressed names in chat...
With respect to enforce roleplay introductions, I think I got addressed with name in error only very few times, almost negligible even.

The problems invisible labels and suppressed names (like mentioned in this post http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=30764.msg352975#msg352975 (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=30764.msg352975#msg352975)) would, as described, on the other hand make rp more diffcult or even impossible in various other situations.

My vote for anything BUT the radical invisible label option (randomly chosen the brackets, in hope it means that it is also in bracket in the chat window)

Sen
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Duraza on November 22, 2007, 10:57:36 pm
I would definately go for label with a different color but the name still there. The reason why is because many times you won't know a person but they will know you because another described how you look. It makes it easier for your name to still be hovering there. People find out about others through a variety of ways, sometimes one may be gossiping about another, you may hear a conversation where people mention their names, etc. Without the label there rping accordingly when these things happen would become difficult.

This way the label would more so represent whether you were introduced or not, however you can still know who someone is without being introduced.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Sen on November 22, 2007, 11:09:18 pm
Well, it isn't clear for me if different label color means that the chat window will remain as it is now.

Besides I'm a little concerned that the voters of a more 'soft' introduction system are divided with this poll...
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Parallo on November 22, 2007, 11:13:40 pm
I agree. I found it difficult to choose between the second and third as I am sure many others did.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Miaua on November 23, 2007, 12:10:51 am
All people who considers invisible labels as good idea...
In general it is, but please, consider as well the disadvantages and issues of invisible labels first.
Read a bit here before voting to decide well. (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=30764.0)

Edit:
Additionally... Thanks Xillix for hearing us and making the poll :)
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Under the moon on November 23, 2007, 12:11:27 am
I can not vote for any single one, as the system I would like would have the first three combined, and selectable by option. Invisible name/lable (if you choose) for characters you have never seen or talked to before. Brackets or color change for unknown people in chat. Color coded lables for characters that you have seen before, but do not know the name of. Another color for those you have talked to, but do not know the name (non-/intro). A color for those you select as known to you (non-intro). And finally, the standard green for those that have introduced themselves.

So, I am going to vote for not-4.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Parallo on November 23, 2007, 12:14:38 am
That would solve the worries. I vote not-4 too. I guess that makes us pro-choice :P
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Eodun on November 23, 2007, 12:30:39 am
@miaua: I followed that thread. Still, I go for invisible. Though I'm new, of course.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Zetsumei on November 23, 2007, 12:33:47 am
I rather like Under the Moon's thoughts on this topic, and I think that true invisibility (no name/guild) should be an option; otherwise I think a different color (or perhaps some level of transparency?) would work.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Dajoji on November 23, 2007, 12:52:14 am
It would be nice if players could have a "stranger label" for those who do not know them. That way, instead of seeing their name tag they would see their "stranger tag". For example: "Elderly dwarf", "Androgynous Fenki", "Tall Dermorian", etc. Of course, the naming policy would need to incorporate these new tags as they will need to comply with it (so don't even think about going all 1337 on this). Tags could be updated by the player depending on the character's current state.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Rongar Elani on November 23, 2007, 01:04:59 am
I withdraw from my decision.

There should be a simple command that allows you to name a person.

/recognize $target [some name]

Recognized people would then wear a tag with that name in brackets or another color. Until /introduced or /recognized, they should remain totally unknown though. Otherwise the feature wouldn't make much sense.

Just my $0.02
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: miadon on November 23, 2007, 02:03:49 am
Invisible and see how things work out, if not then it can be improved on..
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Erisnas on November 23, 2007, 04:53:38 am
Perhaps there could be someway that you could "mark them" so that even if you don't know their name you could pick them out of a crowd.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: bilbous on November 23, 2007, 07:17:21 am
I too choose none of the above. My choice would be some system where the names are revealed slowly over time. They would begin with initials followed by asterisk placeholders for the rest of the letters. Casual contact with no interaction might reveal one letter per day. Casual interaction might reveal one letter per conversation on top of the one per day. A first name might get revealed completely should it be mentioned in the course of the conversation. /introduction would of course reveal the entire name. This would likely be tricky to implement.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Sen on November 23, 2007, 08:45:20 am
I agree with Erisnas.
But I'm lacking ideas how it could be reasonably implemented without names - having in mind that there are situations where I want to identify a person e.g. a day later (For example when someone steals something from me and is able to run away)

To bilbous's idea... I don't want to program that, but I would like to start conversation with people named, hmm.. e.g. Assanoor (I hope it doesn't exist yet) and see how the name is slowly revealed.  ;D

Sen
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: bilbous on November 23, 2007, 09:10:45 am
I was thinking it would not be in straight ordinal progression but more randomly first letter revealed might be the last letter of the first name then vowel/consonant alternation or evenly distributed. Even that could get unfortunate displays. It would simulate the general uncertainty of the unintroduced identification of new people.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: svuun on November 23, 2007, 09:13:13 am
The fundamental problem with all of this is the inherent lack of uniqueness to player faces.  IRL we recognize others (and are deceived by others) by their faces, what they wear, body types etc. the game doesn't address any of this (yet) but hopefully soon(tm).  so in the meantime we try a superficial system of labeling and what not as a band aid solution in the meantime, to resolve this issue namely-- what makes each player "look" different. ideally this would be some visual difference.  but right now its a difference in label.

adding unique player faces probably won't happen soon(tm) obviously as its limited by resources on the server end.  but this is where ultimately the problem of recognition is solved, and although "labels" or lack thereof somewhat addresses this, its on a very superficial level.  i figure since this is a long term project, at least 10-20 years longer at the rate its progressing, we should at least think long term and consider sliders for morophology of faces, tones etc.  I wouldn't imagine such an awesome game having unique faces for each individual but with sliders for morohplogy, there will be enough uniqueness(a variety of different permutations) to keep it interesting.

In the meantime if you want to waste programming time for potentially a huge task that will take a great deal of time (according to the original post) then don't waste your time. spend more time creating the rest of the races at the very least.  Because wasting loads of time towards a band aid solution to what ultimately is a problem of recognition detracts from the final solution of a game that give us visual differences.  Finishing player races is a step closer to our final goal, and should be considered first.  I know Xillix would say "But they're completely different! ARt isn't related to blah."  Then give that team responsible for the Band aid solution a break and let them work on something else.  Let the community RP it.

After having written this, i'd like change my vote from invisible labels to just allowing RP to solve the problem in the meantime, at least till the art catches up with what we would like to have as our final result.

I'd also like to point out I have no idea how this suggestion would pan out because there are a number of questions that i have that aren't exactly answered.
1.) will targeting a player reveal their name?
2.) having a player say something reveal their name in main chat?
3.) will abuse be more rampant without properly identifying the perpetrator

that's just the tip of the iceberg as i'm sure others can think of other problems.

Let's RP this as we've always been and while the idea of some anonymity is good, its superficial at best.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Mordraugion on November 23, 2007, 09:19:21 am
since each char looks exactly like another how about invisible labels til introduced but with an additional /describe command where for example:
Hokinon could /describe Zinn and all within normal earshot of Hoki would then be able to see Zinns label

perhaps extend the command with /describe name 1-5 Zinn and /describe 1-5 Zinn both revealing the label but in different colours to allow for a description where one doesn't know the name of the person described with the second group of numbers revealing more of the name to show how good the description is, 1 being photographic 5 being very vague
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: svuun on November 23, 2007, 09:38:46 am
Mordraugion, that was actually a creative suggestion but then i had to shake my head and say why? why bother with this in the meantime if its not part of the final solution?  I just see people RP'ing the current system well enough ( I could be wrong ) with mistakes of course.  But well enough to where this aspect of the game seems negligible compared to the rest of its deficiencies.

Again I don't want to offend anyone by saying that all these hours, (tens of hours? many more than that?) that would go into a system could very well go into something else that would be more beneficial. especially if its just an intermediary step in the game.  that's just my personal opinion and casually glancing at the first few pages of the wish list offers many other opportunities to advance the game to the tester's (player's) needs.

But your idea isn't bad and if left with little choice I think its a good variation in the suggested implementation.  Very impressed actually.  But its a added complexity i think this game could do without.  It adds more work in guessing who's who when the real life situation (or the status quo for that matter) is far less work. IRL its a moment's glance, in the game its glancing at a label and if unfamiliar introducing one's self via RP.  It's just difficult for me to understand why constructing a more complex system is necessary, when the simple solution (e.g. RP) solves it with far less effort/time.  *shrugs*
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Mordraugion on November 23, 2007, 11:38:57 am
While I agree it is an added complexity we have to face the fact we'll never have the instant facial recognition that we have in real life and if we have a buddylist style of known people then a quick double click could be all it takes to describe someone.

On a second note there are things I'd much rather have coding time spent on
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: LigH on November 23, 2007, 12:25:15 pm
I may have missed how exactly the system will register another character as "known".

For now I voted for "brackets", although I could imagine more different ways to let labels of unintroduced players appear differently. Maybe a different font face or italics. Maybe a semi-transparent label (but we all know CS transparency issues...).

Not a different color; many are used for different GM/DEV levels already.

And not "no label" either. You already have an option if you don't like them. Newcomers will feel immediately lost without any obvious anchor to identify different "citzen" ("/targetinfo" is not obvious, some even have to learn what a "right click" is).
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Zwenze on November 23, 2007, 03:06:55 pm
I would prefer a configureable system. Right now there is the option menu about labels. There is has the points
*Always visible
*Visible on mouse
*Invisible


Why not add
*Visible when introduced?
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Earl_Listbard on November 23, 2007, 03:15:26 pm
Invisible and see how things work out, if not then it can be improved on..

ditto this


It sounds like it might need some edits, but I think its the best route.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Myriel on November 23, 2007, 03:53:49 pm
I voted for brackets, because it would lead to strange incidents with chatting if you couldn't see the name at all. Imagine: XY greets you, but all the people around you are simply "strangers". At whom do you look? You can't hear from which direction the greeting comes, because you are sitting in front of the pc and not on your character's place in Yliakum, so you have to imitate that with visible name tags.

EDIT: Well, I guess, another color would be just as well, if not better
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: LigH on November 23, 2007, 04:01:58 pm
@ Myriel:

You may see who's talking by the Chat Bubbles...
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Zwenze on November 23, 2007, 04:16:02 pm
Have any one tried of you to make a new char and see how PS feels to newbs these days? I did. Aftersome time another player constantly kill stealed, tried to lure other stronger npcs at me, offended me and challenged me. (Needless to say, that when I brought my main char online the player behaved nice and polite as the "poses no challenge" was not in my char desc anymore).

Anyhow, when the names are not visible, how should players ask gms for assistance in such cases? Sometimes knwing the name for others is essential. So please please please dont make the unintroduced char's name not invisible.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Velh Krome on November 23, 2007, 05:03:43 pm
That, and also the difficulty in tracing back a criminal (rp-wisely), very unrealistic anonymosity that is, made me vote for the coloring solution.
To offer an option to decide wether ones char knows another one is much more preferable than plainly being forced to do so.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Sajut on November 23, 2007, 05:35:57 pm
YAY, invisible names/labels is a great idea!
But for a good RP-like implementation there is more needed.
Who says that all persons are able to remember names similar to others?
there are only a few things that needed to be noticed.

So if we want a very good introduce system we need a system that let you forget the names if you didn't heared it some time. The time depends on your "name remember" skill, your INT, how many sleep you got in the last time, what kind of magic lays on you, how many whams you got on you head, whats the social status of the person, how many other names you have to remember and how many of them sounds similarly.
But thats not all, when you have forgot a name you can try to remember it, using your "name remember" skill, maybe, after some minutes or seconds you can remember the name or one which sounds similar.

I think this is not all whats needed to get implemented for a good hardcore-RP-rules-game, so keep on thinking and make PS to a real mmoRPg!
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Liadan on November 23, 2007, 06:49:13 pm
I have mixed feelings about this new encoded feature.

Yes, it would be great for RP-ing. Not knowing other character's names until they introduce themselves, like in real life. Solves the problem with neon green names being accidentally mentioned.

BUt

real life gives you other ways to identify speakers. IE the sound of their voice, how they act and react.  And you don't need to type in actions to explain what you are doing.  You can look at the unknown person, without needing  to describe who they are, because hey, they can see it too. But with games, unless there's a physical movement that everyone can see (ie turning of head and looking in a general direction), a /me looks at the fenki at the fireplace, is going to bring up more questions than resolve.

There is only so much you can simulate in a game.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Quin on November 24, 2007, 12:56:52 am
Actually this is my favorite suggestion:
It would be nice if players could have a "stranger label" for those who do not know them. That way, instead of seeing their name tag they would see their "stranger tag". For example: "Elderly dwarf", "Androgynous Fenki", "Tall Dermorian", etc. Of course, the naming policy would need to incorporate these new tags as they will need to comply with it (so don't even think about going all 1337 on this). Tags could be updated by the player depending on the character's current state.
An extremely short unique description, so that you realise that you've seen this person around and can pick him out later.  :thumbup:
 
But of the 4 options presented, I voted for brackets. (#2 or# 3 would be better than #1 or #4 in my opinion)
Reason being, that since the introductions is an attempt at more realism for the players in-game, I feel that the invisible tags solution is even less realistic than the current situation.
The problem with invisible tags is that every time you log on (heck, every time you turn a corner) You are dumped into a world of completely unknown strangers, even though you have probably walked past and/or heard some of them talking a hundred times.
As far as I feel, in the current situation, name tags are just replacing faces and easily recognizable features  of the people we see every day.

If Dajoji's suggestion could be coded and easily policed, I would vote for that one in a heartbeat!
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: bilbous on November 24, 2007, 08:16:23 am
You could always replace names with unique numbers.

Number six step forward please!
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Jeraphon on November 25, 2007, 04:06:52 am
You could always replace names with unique numbers.

Number six step forward please!

I am not a number! I am a free ylian!

A stranger label's interesting. I've seen it in some MUDs before, where you give a short description, a longer description (given when you actually look at them,) and a name as soon as you "recognize" them (when they tell it to you.) So it's not a bad idea, entirely. Just remains to be seen how it fares in a graphical application.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Nilrem on November 26, 2007, 07:15:09 pm
Thanks Quinidain for letting me know about this thread.

My vote goes for "No introduction system". That is, to let things the way they are now.
If anyone cares about the opinion of someone who doesn't play the game, I try to state it here:

The code has to serve the players. Make their life easier when using the game.
A code that is not set in a game rule, should not force, nor coerce players freedom.

The way it is now, players already roleplay correctly unknown characters, as a general rule.
Some might happen to make the mistake of using accidentally the name because they see it there, green and flashy. In those cases, there is always the chance to explain the mistake to the player having done it, and, from my experience, none of them persists on the mistake. It becomes so strongly logic that their char couldn't know the others, just first time seeing them, that the player immediately realizes about the mistake as well as learning an important differentiation, which is IC from OOC. What you know, and what you see, doesn't have to always be what your char knows and sees. It is something that could be even explained (if not already) in the game tutorial.

A perfect /introducing system would end up achieving a status that would, generally, equal the one that already exists now by players behaving just naturally.
With the small burden of all players having to use the /introduce command to reach that status.
And with the addendum that code is always prone to have fails, or non-considered cases of use. Some ways have been already mentioned when someone might know about another's name, without having been /introduced first.

* The char name is eavesdropped in an ongoing conversation nearby.
* Another char introduces you to a third. (With the introduction system now the player using the third char is forced to use /introduce command to keep consistency)
* Someone shouts a name, and another replies as having been addressed to.
* Someone who rules a business, such as "Teckler Gofnary shoes".
* Someone who has a very particular trait, or a special disease. Enkidukai allergic of fur, Kran scared about butterflies...
* Someone who is famous or has a very specific charge, such as the octarch.
* Any other case that comes to mind.

All those are cases that are naturally dealt with by the players as of now, and without issues of relevance.
I think it is something that can be demanded from the playerbase, that such things are roleplayed correctly. There is no need to put a hard code behind it, in order to enforce such behaviors; this would rather seem as a lack of confidence towards the players capabilities.

When I was first told about this, I teased about the "reintroducing" command, due to names not lasting forever in memory.
I see Sajut has already put that idea into debate, in a serious fashion.
I disagree with having a "countdown" set on characters, based on time passed since last hearing a name or interacting with that same name. I am not saying that the char is to remember all the names correctly, as shown to you by the green labels. I'm just saying, let the player have the freedom to decide how much her/his character is meant to remember the names. Trust the players ability to roleplay correctly, and if you consider a char should have forgotten your one, feel free to state such a thing to the other player, and see the reaction.

The implemented should indeed aid for realism, but not mean an imposition that then makes realism a burden.

For example:

Just similar to the forgetting about names, one can equally argue about untrained skills. Indeed, in order to keep a skill/stat at a maximum, or a given level, a certain amount of "maintenance" training should be performed. But this is not implemented, and better that way. Because otherwise the game would become too much time consuming on /train /maintain train /introduce /reintroduce and leave few room to the build of lives in a fictional world that is the roleplay.

A similar comment can be applied to the temptation of using intelligence stat when trading, be it with NPC or other characters, and be cheated. Then again I prefer to let the players roleplay such a cheat (if any) rather than have it imposed by any code to be.

There is much code that can be done, and aid the player play. For example, by allowing /import /export of the buddy list. Players creating a new char now have only the chance to rebuild the buddy list they have with another char by hand if that's what they want.
Or implement the "comments on buddylist" that would allow to add a note (sort of a post-it) to each buddy list entry, that could contain info regarding the last play you had with that character, or any particular traits/events you want to keep in mind when playing with that character again. Much more handy to have all the info centralized in the game, rather than on disperse notes all through the desk.

To sum up:

To me the /introduce command is not bringing much enthusiasm, because it is not perceived as being something that represents a "gain", for what it aims to bring "is already there".

The code should implement new tools for improving the players experience.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Liadan on November 26, 2007, 07:44:31 pm
Wow, you just stated what everyone's been arguing about...but in shorter, less concise posts.

But i have to agree...don't make us have to introduce each other. It'll be a pain.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: ThomPhoenix on November 26, 2007, 07:48:56 pm
Can't you just wait until you've seen it in-game? Jeesh, don't be so conservative.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Liadan on November 26, 2007, 07:51:19 pm
yeh, you see the problem with waiting until then is that chances are we're gonna get line "Suck it up buttercup, it's here to stay"

so the best defense is a good offense...fight it now I say!
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: ThomPhoenix on November 26, 2007, 08:07:22 pm
But you have no idea how it's going to be, just that you have to introduce yourself. I've actually tried it out, and I think it works pretty nicely. On Laanx the experience will likely change, but I don't foresee any difficulties. At first you will have to re-introduce yourself to everyone you already know, but once you've done that it will be smooth sailing. Why would you even want to know the name of that dwarf silently hammering his swords over there? Why would you even want to know the name of that newbie who's killing rats? Why do you want to see that guild sign floating over everyone's heads? So you can use OOC info IC? Because you keep statistics on everyone?

And when you do want to know someone's name, because you need it, or because you would like to know him?

/introduce: Just one command, one button.

Also, I foresee some good usages for Blue Way wizards. By using divination they would automatically know everyone's name and public guild. In other words, the need of introducing would be disabled from them if they have 40 in Blue Way minimum. (an example)
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: bilbous on November 26, 2007, 08:27:44 pm
I can't wait to snub everyone who /introduce spams me. I will know who they all are and they will not know me! Don't worry people I won't snub everyone some people will get to see my name in the banner. It seems seriously arbitrary to me and I can see now some people may refuse to trade with you or even talk to you without an /introduction and that seems a little OOC. I am willing to wait and see.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Lanarel on November 26, 2007, 09:04:03 pm
It seems seriously arbitrary to me and I can see now some people may refuse to trade with you or even talk to you without an /introduction and that seems a little OOC. I am willing to wait and see.
Actually, refusing to trade with someone who you do not know makes perfect sense IC, in many cases. And characters that are not talking to you because you have not introduced yourself when that makes no sense, are not the ones you want to talk with I guess :)
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Raa on November 26, 2007, 11:07:35 pm
Why would you even want to know the name of that dwarf silently hammering his swords over there? Why would you even want to know the name of that newbie who's killing rats? Why do you want to see that guild sign floating over everyone's heads? So you can use OOC info IC? Because you keep statistics on everyone?

PlaneShift's getting a bit paranoid.

No one should use OOC info IC, and that's why people try to refrain from doing it. There's not really much a need for this silly /introduce thing. People already have brains (we hope) and can differentiate between IC and OOC. If they're not using their brains wisely, then we teach them how.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Suno_Regin on November 26, 2007, 11:16:17 pm
Or rather, if they're not using their brain wisely, completely disregard them like I do. If they know my name and I've never met them in my life, nothing they say matters.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Miaua on November 26, 2007, 11:42:18 pm
But you have no idea how it's going to be, just that you have to introduce yourself. I've actually tried it out, and I think it works pretty nicely. On Laanx the experience will likely change, but I don't foresee any difficulties. At first you will have to re-introduce yourself to everyone you already know, but once you've done that it will be smooth sailing. Why would you even want to know the name of that dwarf silently hammering his swords over there? Why would you even want to know the name of that newbie who's killing rats? Why do you want to see that guild sign floating over everyone's heads? So you can use OOC info IC? Because you keep statistics on everyone?

And when you do want to know someone's name, because you need it, or because you would like to know him?

/introduce: Just one command, one button.

Also, I foresee some good usages for Blue Way wizards. By using divination they would automatically know everyone's name and public guild. In other words, the need of introducing would be disabled from them if they have 40 in Blue Way minimum. (an example)

This isn't about "name" at all I would say. Labels are the way, as was here already several times said, to recognize same avatars of each character.
I'm really not up to keep checking description, while following murderer for example. (of course, I doubt he will introduce, so I'll have to see description of every of the race, every time I loose him from sight.)
Additionally think about logs. There should be name, otherwise, you will completely ruin storywriting from logs.

I don't know. Still, invisible labels is against my taste.  Nice idea, but too much issues.
Keep current system, or put it in brackets [I think that there is already too much colors to confuse new players. But brackets, with the nice tutorial, knows everyone.]
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Dajoji on November 26, 2007, 11:53:36 pm
No one should use OOC info IC, and that's why people try to refrain from doing it. There's not really much a need for this silly /introduce thing. People already have brains (we hope) and can differentiate between IC and OOC. If they're not using their brains wisely, then we teach them how.

Sorry to pop your bubble, Raa, but no. Unfortunately, tons of people don't know the difference between IC and OOC. Many of the /report logs show it. And as far as teaching someone how to use their brains wisely goes... well... easier said that done.

The thing is when people use OOC information like name and guild tags as IC and they walk up to you and call you by your name when they don't really know who you are, they are causing a disruption. Sometimes it's not a big deal but others it can really be a problem. And even though they can learn to avoid it, that will only happen after the mistake is made or witnessed. So it all comes to damage control versus prevention, and first is always more costly than the latter. With this feature those disruptions would simply not take place.

And as far as the limitations with other features invisible names would bring, well, we'll just have to find a way to make them work. Should that not be accomplished despite numerous tries, the devs will take the proper action, be it restore the visible name tags or something else. Freaking out in advance is futile. All that's been said about those potential problems with features like /report, /ignore, etc. will have to be considered to make them work under the new system, if they haven't already.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Velh Krome on November 27, 2007, 12:21:31 am
Miaua reproduces right one of the main points of why I chose the colored way.

However, reading
Quote
using their brain wisely
almost annoys me. Is it the way of this community to treat (still) ignorant newbies as brainless retards?
I met many newbies who understood at once when I explained to them the purpose of names and the thing about knowing it and to not know. To spread the picture of they wouldnt use their brain wisely is quite foolish and in my opinion ignorant itsself.
Remember that to run around PS the first few hours may be pretty much overwhelming, even may cause one to forget one or another detail gathered some minutes ago in the tutorial.

We all may know that since the tutorial was implemented the "quality" of the newbies increased significantly. My vote for colored labels may provide support for players but surely will not prevent players from misusing ooc-info. Nonetheless, to leave some responsibility up to the player should be granted.There can always be situations a potential solution to come now may limit rp, and nope, I dont like that. The more I tend to the other side, letting open chances to misuse ooc-knowledge, less restrictive, for the sake of granting all possible chances to realize a flawless roleplay.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: neko kyouran on November 27, 2007, 12:25:32 am
I don't believe he was referring to just newer players.  I've met many an oldbie that misused the labels as well.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Raa on November 27, 2007, 01:33:24 am
I'M A SHE! A SHEEEE!  :o

Dajoji, what I'm saying is that most people don't incorporate OOC information to IC. If they do, though, then we can at least try and teach them, and if that doesn't work, /report them. This /introduce deal ain't going to make it better for us. More disruptions and issues will be caused by this implement, I bet.

Velh, read mah posty agin, pliz.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: neko kyouran on November 27, 2007, 01:38:01 am
Don't worry Raa, my comment was to Velh Krome's comment he was making on Dajoji's comment.  :) 
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Raa on November 27, 2007, 01:46:01 am
But he was referring to my post...? Velh, was that part below the first sentence to me?
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Tuxide on November 27, 2007, 02:20:17 am
Question:  Assuming the introduction system was implemented with invisible labels, how would the /report and /ignore systems work when you don't know the name of the idiot?

Edit:  I suppose the name would still show up in the chat window ??? there is so much about this that is still unclear to me <_<
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Quin on November 27, 2007, 02:37:53 am
As it appears that invisible tags will be introduced with .021, I want to make clear that I'm good with trying it out and seeing what happens (that's the players/testers job, right?).  Who knows, maybe it will be a hit.  Eventhough I still currently fall on the other side of the fence (brackets/colors/stranger tags/ability to add your own tag to an unknown)

I guess my question is: why the invisible tags?
Though 40+% of those polled voted for invisible tags, the vast majority of those who gave a reason for their decision in the two main threads regarding this, were arguing for another option (99% of which I agreed with, and reiterating them all here would just be a waste of space). 
The only reason I could dig out of these two threads for this implementation was that the OOC use of names was interfering with some RPs.
To me this seems like inconveniencing the vast majority of players for the sake of a few griefers.

Again, I'm all up for trying new ideas, and seeing how this goes.  I'd just like to hear a more indepth arguement from the other side of the fence on why they prefer (decided to implement: for the Devs) invisible tags over some of the other suggestions.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: SerqFeht on November 27, 2007, 07:31:37 am
To me this seems like inconveniencing the vast majority of players for the sake of a few griefers.

Is typing /introduce such an inconvenience?

You can shortcut it if you want.

A lot of people are acting as if it was impossible to identify someone. Type the code and don't worry about it. It will take about 30 seconds at most to 'recognize' everyone at Harn's on a busy day. You're making a huge deal out of a few letters and a slashy thing.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: bilbous on November 27, 2007, 07:39:03 am
You know we might be able to try it here on the forums before it gets implemented in game. just open up the forum to guest posts and let's see what happens. Only one rule: If you ever /introduce yourself you may never post as a guest again. It will be easy to break the rule but that is what we have the honor system for.
Oh wait, silly idea.

Can we ban using gender specific appellations for Kran such as Sir?
No no, that is :offtopic: (kind of similar though)

There are many reasons to not want to know someones name that you are dealing with and just as many where it is vital that they do not know yours. Not everyone has the luxury of always being on the up and up.

This really seems to be an idea that is designed to limit the player base more than it is. I can only hope that it will be embellished if it is found acceptable by the development team after some trial.

I'll say one thing, it is radically different than anything I have come across.

I am no-one of importance that I should bother others with my name....
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Marqsaynt on November 27, 2007, 07:41:47 am
A lot of people are acting as if it was impossible to identify someone. Type the code and don't worry about it. It will take about 30 seconds at most to 'recognize' everyone at Harn's on a busy day. You're making a huge deal out of a few letters and a slashy thing.

It's the "slashy thing" that scares me...  :-\

Nah, actually I think once everyone is caught back up with the /introduce feature on who they already know, it could be a pretty cool thing to have. Just catching back up will be a bit of a hassle but, at least only a temporary one. :)
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: SerqFeht on November 27, 2007, 07:53:10 am
If anyone knows what the slashy thingie is called, I'll be happy to identify it, but until then, fear the slash.

//////////////////////////

Back on topic, I think that this will be really cool when implemented and the hassles of matching your buddy list to players is over. And hasn't 5 years of production on this game shown that we must experience hassles for the greater good in the end result?
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Quin on November 27, 2007, 11:40:59 am
To me this seems like inconveniencing the vast majority of players for the sake of a few griefers.

Is typing /introduce such an inconvenience?

You can shortcut it if you want.

A lot of people are acting as if it was impossible to identify someone. Type the code and don't worry about it. It will take about 30 seconds at most to 'recognize' everyone at Harn's on a busy day. You're making a huge deal out of a few letters and a slashy thing.

If I understand the coming system correctly, You've just /introduce spammed everyone at Harnquists.  They all now know your name in an OOC manner and you only know the name of any who bother to /introduce themselves back to you.
It's not in the needing to know everyone elses name, it's just my preference (and a feeling of more realism, to me) to walk through a world of faces not a world of cookie cutter drones.
Do you truely believe that the average player is unable to deal with people they haven't met in a relatively IC manner?
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: ThomPhoenix on November 27, 2007, 11:46:14 pm
Yes. Only a month ago I had a long-time player of a well known guild do this:
* Hey <character name> of <guild name>, what are you doing here?!
- [How do you know my name and guild?]
* [You're wearing the badge and uniform of your guild, with your name on it. Everyone of your guild does that.]
- [Not me, not now.]
* [Oh...]
* [Forget what I said]
- [Sure]

So the guy read a guild description on the forum, then saw my guild and name label and based on that information he judged that his character should be able to recognize me. The fact that he used OOC information IC twice was beyond him. And I repeat, that was a well-known player from a well-known guild.

Now, the Introduction system would easily have prevented this issue in what would normally have been a good RP.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Suno_Regin on November 28, 2007, 12:08:06 am
I have something else in mind now.

Until someone reads your description, they should be on a temporary "ignore list", that way they don't jump out and say something without even knowing anything about you. /tells would be exempted, as would guild, group, and help chats, but just for the main tab, this would be a way to "force your description in their face", before they can go and act like they know you and say something weird to you. Of course, they could bypass by simply double-clicking then closing it, but some people might actually pay heed, in the very least it would help the situation a slight bit better.

From what I hear, this introduction has a lot of kinks to work out. Instead of implementing it right away when still unsure about how to conduct it exactly, some alternatives should be listed that may deal with the situation a little better.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: ThomPhoenix on November 28, 2007, 12:10:45 am
Have you ever read the endless stories people put in their descriptions? How do you explain "reading someone's description" and then "just" knowing them? I'd rather have someone just explaining to me, with talking, who they are.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Suno_Regin on November 28, 2007, 12:12:49 am
I'm talking about what you said earlier. They knew your name and everything right away, using OOC information to simply assume. With your description being forced in their face, maybe they'd realize that those things aren't listed anywhere on your person, and would ask rather than addressing you formally. People who put endless stories in their description are abusing it, but that's another issue. Skim through and see if any physical details are listed. If not, disregard it and ask them anyway.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Velh Krome on November 28, 2007, 12:38:46 am
Hm yes,
my comment was about Raa's words, but with your clearance, Raa, and Dajoji's statement it is shown in a different light, so thanks you two for that.
As I understood it like directed at ignorant newbies I just wanted to state that we all are welcoming new ones taking the efforts and hurdles to get into it properly, and are willing to provide support.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Quin on November 28, 2007, 01:13:27 am
So the guy read a guild description on the forum, then saw my guild and name label and based on that information he judged that his character should be able to recognize me. The fact that he used OOC information IC twice was beyond him. And I repeat, that was a well-known player from a well-known guild.

Now, the Introduction system would easily have prevented this issue in what would normally have been a good RP.

OK. agreed.  That encounter sounds like a bit of a bummer.  But my glasses must have a bit of a rose colored tinge to the lenses.  Sure I've had people use my name and know the guild I'm in (I could stand to lose the guild tags until an introduction is made  ;) ) but it's never been enough to knock me out of my escapist world.  Most of the time it's just been someone trying to get my attention and haven't discovered /greet yet, or haven't got the hang of /me sees Quinidain talking to the cute waitress at Brado's and says "excuse me sir..."
I'm looking more at the opportunities to be missed:

Why would you even want to know the name of that dwarf silently hammering his swords over there? Why would you even want to know the name of that newbie who's killing rats? Why do you want to see that guild sign floating over everyone's heads? So you can use OOC info IC? Because you keep statistics on everyone?

I'd like to be able to recognize that dwarf silently hammering his swords, because I know that some time in the future I'm going to try weapon making, yet again.  And one of these times when I go to the mines because I'm broke again and see a familiar dwarf, who I've not yet talked to, silently mining...  missed opportunity with invisible tags.

Or when I'm off hunting Grandaddy Tef and see a familiar newbie who was just recently hunting rats and now has a brand new shiney sword approaching said Grandaddy Tef...  Missed opportunity with invisible tags. 
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: ThomPhoenix on November 28, 2007, 11:27:41 pm
Well, you're right. The only way to solve that would be to give players the tools to fully customize their character's looks and clothes. I don't see that happening soon, though.

I'm not saying the system's perfect, I'm just saying people shouldn't be afraid of new things and plead to take them out before they've even seen them.

Perhaps this could potentially be beter:
Un-introduced player:
   - Different label colour.
   - No guild label.
   - No description available.
After using /introduce:
   - Normal green label colour, indicating you know said player.
   - Guild label is visible, if his/her guild is public.
   - Description available.

Discuss.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Suno_Regin on November 28, 2007, 11:35:41 pm
No description available for people who aren't introduced to you basically means you don't even know what they look like, even though they're standing right in front of you. Doesn't seem like it'd make sense.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: ThomPhoenix on November 28, 2007, 11:41:48 pm
Because everyone puts entire life stories in their descriptions. When someone makes a description according to the rules, it incidentally is pretty useless. The only useful information in a description right now is the race name.

But I guess descriptions could be made available when not introduced, albeit not displaying player-written information.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Suno_Regin on November 28, 2007, 11:52:52 pm
Maybe people just need a little...filling in on what a description really is. Make an option to report abused descriptions and other things like that, similar to what was done with the excessive space thing people were doing in their descriptions.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: bilbous on November 29, 2007, 07:23:28 am
This is kind of strange to me. When the big push to abolish OOC naming faux pas came around about six months ago I responded by adding a tattoo of my name to my forehead which has gradually been submerging under my skin. I still generally refused to introduce myself and was extremely reluctant to tell people my name. If asked I would reply "it is plain as my face" or some such thing. I generally do not use any of the /emotes, you can consider me old stone face. I have been introduced to a good many people by the local welcome wagon lady, Agara and some others. I cannot remember all the people who made introduction nor who I was introduced to so from this perspective this is a pretty useful plan.  It is not complete but a good first step as long as more follow.

I was thinking about this at work tonight and I am almost starting to look forward to it. It will be almost as fresh a start as the wipe that was bandied (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=30813.msg353713#msg353713) about earlier and that I have advocated for some time. I am really not that keen on a wipe as I do not have the time to build myself back to where I am but I think it is appropriate in principle.

As I was saying, I am looking forward to it as I think I would like to see how long I can go without /introducing myself and how many people will introduce themselves to me. If someone should do so I might respond with "Hi, I am Sandy Beech" or perhaps 'I am Pebb Lehead." I might say bilbous too on occasion. Of course, the rest of my tattoo will have to go by then. One thing I think unfortunate is the somewhat unrealistic "you evaluate..." section of the description. It will ultimately serve to identify me as the same kran as the other day whatever name I choose to go by as it will not likely change significantly from one viewing to another by the same character. If I had no skills then I could be any new character but I am fair to middling as pertains to character development.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Quin on November 29, 2007, 11:52:45 am
ThomPhoenix and Bilbous have good points for the invisible tags (I actually had not thought about the "I wish to stay anonimous" view Bilbous has)
And to paraphrase ThomPheonix, no system will be perfect.
But without having had the chance to play any of the options, I just have a better feeling about the options with a positive visual cue showing that you don't know a person yet.  I think many in this thread have given good reasons to adopt one of theses options over the invisible tags.  Having said that, I also wish that a few more of those in favor of invisible tags would post their views on why they prefer the option over the others.  My mind is open enough to be changed.

And as for the Description question.  Yeah I think that many people mis-use/misunderstand the Description feature.  But it is there to describe the visual appearance of your character, so I see no reason for ever withholding it from the other players.  Maybe, one of the NPCs in the tutorial could say a word or two about it, but then again people are already starting to complain about the length  ::| (huh, I'm in favor of it getting alittle longer if it helps)
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Mordraugion on November 29, 2007, 01:47:49 pm
A touch off-topic but just lately we have started cracking down on OOC ness of Descriptions URL's etc and no doubt one day soon(tm) we will start on removing the random life stories to replace with actual physical descriptions
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Parallo on November 29, 2007, 05:03:59 pm
That is perhaps one of the best things I have heard in a long time here.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Dajoji on November 29, 2007, 06:08:17 pm
Well, hopefully that day will come soon but I'd rather see all players taking time to edit their descriptions first instead of leaving them with the default information. In the meantime, a solution could be to change the way default descriptions are generated so only the physical traits are included. After all, if childhood activities and life events are in it by default, it's normal that players will do the same when they create their characters' own backgrounds.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Under the moon on November 29, 2007, 07:28:53 pm
I have said before that the background info should be in a seperate 'Background' window that others can not see.

Also, a two-tier description would be nice. Click on the character to get a short, concise list of selectable 'What you look like' features, then a [Look closer] button inside the quicklook for the player written text.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Sen on November 30, 2007, 09:21:52 am
Shouldn't that discussion better have an own thread?   ::)
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Seytra on December 11, 2007, 01:45:09 am
As it should always be, I have read through the thread before even voting. Of course, I've had a sentiment against this ever since it was proposed years ago. The arguments in this thread have led me to go from "it'll be incredibly annoying" to "it'll probably only be another nuisance". However, the benefit to be gained from this is absolutely minimal.

/introduce is a two-way concept. Depending on implementation, one can introduce to a name, the target or everyone in range. Possibly to a guild, but the latter already makes for more or less the same as it's ATM, with guild members offline, etc..

So with this command every player would be forced to not only enter the command with the appropriate targetting first (I already find the /greet command annoying because I have to change the target, then click a shortcut or type a command; I occasionally use it, even though I find /me-ing more appropriate, especially since the (very nice) /greet animation hardly ever fits the situation (it appears to be extremely formal)), but to get everyone else to do the same (highly likely to lead to several lines of OOC chat, which would not have happened without /introduce).
The /introduce command will likely have no visual representation, so it's use will be even less appropriate, meaning less incentive to incorporate it into an RP session.
This leaves us with what it's trying to do: enforce proper RP on everybody. Now, the idea of having no OOC in /say had to be dropped already, because it's simply not possible to get people to only talk IC. /introduce creates the impression that it'd be possible to force people to RP properly. However, it isn't. The only thing it does is to hide information which is, as many of the replies already stated, vital, due to the (currently unsolvable) lack of absolutely unique looks. Even in a game like SL, where customisation is almost excessive, labels are needed, because not everybody will be able / capable / willing to ensure an individual look, nor is the visual resolution in PS (or anywhere else) remotely good enough to distinguish between people unless they're complete freaks.

Still, the problem is that people address characters by name without having being introduced or otherwise come to know the name. I can't help but consider this a ridiculously small issue. This sort of thing has happened to me, yes. However, it has never been a problem. Granted, my character has properties that lend themselves easily to a description and subsequent recognition (so that I could shrug it off IC-ly very well), but still I don't recall more than 4 occasions in my entire time in PS; given that I likely don't remember many of them due to their insignificance, I'd accept a factor of 10, making it fourty times, a number which is both extreme and low at the same time, given the ratio of occurances to playing time.
Then add to this that it's been common practice for non-secret guilds to have IC means of recognising the char's guilded status, be it a badge, a tattoo or something else. Of course, this is in response to the existance of the guild tags. However, given that guilds are popular exactly because of these tags, it's highly likely that people will wish to show off their guild token regardless of introduction. Only a fraction of that desire likely is IC.

This leads to the question of the improvement of the player's RP by lack of information. I am convinced that a player will have the exact same issues separating IC from OOC, or comprehending the concept of such separation at all, completely regardless of the knowledge of someone's name. In fact, since /introduce happens to be an OOC thing itself (being a command), and the subsequent display of the names being also an OOC thing, the idea of /introduce itself more likely serves to blur the distinction between IC and OOC, rather than to emphasize it.
Players not caring about RP will simply /introduce in order to get the names on the BL or whatnot, just like almost everybody has to adjust gamma to navigate the DR.

Point in case is, actually, the very incident ThomPhoenix cited: if the incident really happened like that, and if it was really justified to assume that the information from the boards was not likely to be known by that other player, it would mean that that player was completely unable to differentiate between IC and OOC. Let me just state that that player did, from ThomPhoenix's presentation, respond very well and completely appropriately to the clarification, and in addition that the place the information came from, be it this forum or any other, likely was classified as "IC area" on that forum; this means that it could just as well be concluded that not knowing that information would be OOC (especially if you consider the "IC area" of guild boards to be an actual visit of your character, with everything occuring while your character is there, which seems to be the very intention of these areas; forum-RP works in exactly that way, so it's only natural to assume that forum RP and ingame-RP are interchangeable.).

OK, assuming all of this was not the case, and the player really was unable to decide between IC and OOC... what RP, good or average, could ever come from this player? Is it not certain that that player will commit many other, much more severe, blunders in the ongoing RP, to which the name / guild issue compares as totally insignificant? I am convinced that this is exactly the case. The point is that a player who cannot RP will not RP. Even in the unlikely case you would manage to withhold all OOC information from that player, forever, the player would still not RP. Inappropriate acting, OOC remarks, all the true annoyances would remain.

Just yesterday, I happened to meet someone like this. The player was obviously familiar with the concept of brackets, since he began to use them after I had used parenthesis to respond to his undesignated OOC question. However, his usage was completely random, with things that could go for IC in brackets, while internet-related references in plain chat. He had used /greet, but he had not ever, in the entire conversation, addressed me by name. Therefore, even with the most restrictive and intelligent implementation of /introduce, the conversation would have happened exactly like it did.

IOW, the only way to force people to RP is to have the client do it for you. This would mean to either make it an interactive movie or to limit player interaction to choices from a list, just like it's done in SP RPG NPC interaction.

Thus, the gain is essentially zero, while the overhead is, while not necessarily large, but existing. Therefore, I can only say that it's not worth the effort, neither in code (which obviously has already been expended), nor on the side of the user who has to use the (already clumsy) interface.

My (much more effective) solution to this issue has been to simply not hang out in the notorious areas like Harnquists, the arena and the spawn points.

As a sidenote, I fail to see the reason for this sudden push for enforced RP, while, as stated, the char creation, by default, puts into the descriptions nothing but things that do not belong there. How is a player supposed to know that what the system does is against the rules? Are you seriously considering to punish players who take the time to write up something in their description, inspired by, or in many times coherent with what the system put there?
I'm baffled that on one hand you are willing to spend time coding enforcements, complete with all the forseeable (and subsequently all unforseeable) side-effects and inevitable corrections, while glaring issues like that remain unchanged for literally years.
/sidenote

I also considered the options to have a different label for unintroduced persons, and initially was drawn to one of them, but then I realised that the benefit of this is even smaller than with invisibility: the only people using it would be those who already are RPing properly, while the hassle would be the same (or even more, considering they'd not only need to get others to RP, but to use an obscure command in addition.).

@ Bilbous: I can't see the reasoning behind your explanation. The name tags are OOC. So unless your character tells it's name, it's perfectly anonymous (not unrecognisable, though), IC. OOC-ly, you want to be unrecognisable? Why? And if so, why do you state that your description has "his name and guild are tattooed on his forehead", meaning that it is, even for perfect RPers, impossible to not know your name? I'm sorry, but this makes little to no sense to me.

Consider me conservative, but if something is not going to bring significant benefit, while imposing recurring cost, then it's best not to do it.
Thus, I voted for "no change at all".
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Raa on December 11, 2007, 02:03:00 am
Well said, smart guy.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Quin on December 11, 2007, 04:26:08 am

@ Bilbous: I can't see the reasoning behind your explanation. The name tags are OOC. So unless your character tells it's name, it's perfectly anonymous (not unrecognisable, though), IC. OOC-ly, you want to be unrecognisable? Why? And if so, why do you state that your description has "his name and guild are tattooed on his forehead", meaning that it is, even for perfect RPers, impossible to not know your name? I'm sorry, but this makes little to no sense to me.


Actually I think his forehead is a good opening for RP since you can't actually read it clearly, but yeah, it does make him recognizable as different from other krans you have seen.
Otherwise, Seytra, I find it hard to disagree with much you said.  The only thing being that I voted for brackets, so that those who do RP would have a visual cue saying "hey, I don't know this person yet". Seeing so many people in-game one may forget who they have and haven't talked with yet.

Seeing that this thread has been dying off lately (and the coding is already done), the point is probably mute, but I'd like to nudge the "invisible taggers" again.  It just seems to be that the people who are voicing their reasons for their choices are us "other optioners".  As I said before, my mind is open enough to be changed.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: bilbous on December 11, 2007, 04:11:15 pm
Actually only my name was tattooed on my forehead, I remain unguilded. Currently only the initial b and the s remain visible. Theoretically, at least, if I am wearing a helm you would not even see that although it is in the description. As I said I do not like to introduce myself and the tattoo was a way to not have to. I do not particularly like this new functionality but it seems it is coming anyway so I have turned from arguing against it to considering how I might use it in unexpected ways. Since my character has no liking for telling his name the functionality being tried will keep him unlabeled without him having to do anything about it. I expect I will face some social pressure but I will deal with it as it comes along.

If I mention my name to one person who subsequently uses it it becomes possible for everyone to know it without any further introduction. Also you are assuming the OOC fact that there is little variability in character constructs, though more than there used to be, and trying to apply it to IC anonymity. It just isn't so. I may not remember Cindy Crawford's name but if I say "that old supermodel with the big mole, used to be married to whassisname" you just might know who I mean, for example. You can tell me all day what your name is but unless I have some way of associating it with you I am not going to remember it in a week or two of no contact. I might remember how you look and be able to identify you that way or I might not remember you at all.


As to your statement about making no sense why does anything have to make sense, particularly some silicoid form of life? Anyway it is not about being unrecognizable, it is about not introducing myself. Even if you cannot tell me from another kran visually you likely could from my mannerisms or by things that I say unintentionally. Of course I am a classic skin kran so you would not mistake me for a new-fangled one.

It's just a game so lighten up ;)
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Shurrim on December 12, 2007, 08:26:55 pm
Anything but  please don't make that invisible! And no introduction neither. I've been addressed with my name by someone who wasn't supposed to know it only once, and it was a new player to which i explain the thing. And how often will you learn the name of someone without being introduced? Think about sipping an ale quietly at the tavern and listening to other's conversations? Someone shouting after another one or simply calling their name when you are around? Some characters, like mine, will simply not go to people cause they are too shy and will just listening to others. Our name labels are like our faces. Since there is no real way to look different from other characters, they should be used in that way. Give me a game where i can customize my clothing AND my face, my body, well.. everything.. and i would say no label is required. But this is not the case (and don't take this as a complain) so we need something that will do as " right.. i saw this person before.. " or "Here, this is my friend!" and it's the name label. I think for the guild we should have the option to hide or show it though. and to toggle between the two states. I'm used to write it in my description, but often we don't have the time to read it cause of the rp or some players will read it once, once in a while. But it would be nice everybody know that we dont walk around with our name hanging over our head.. cause yes, some see this as ic knowledge. The need for an introduction would be acting totally ooc for many situations. How often my guildmates or friends have showed me someone form far and told me : "the one with the blue cloak, the scar on the paw, this is X". We havent been introduced but i know them, ic. I think i've said enough on this.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Phinehas on December 12, 2007, 08:38:15 pm
I have it... Just make facial features recognizable. That way we can recognize the person by their physical features, like in real life. Problem solved.  ;D
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Parallo on December 12, 2007, 08:48:09 pm
Anything but  please don't make that invisible! And no introduction neither. I've been addressed with my name by someone who wasn't supposed to know it only once, and it was a new player to which i explain the thing. And how often will you learn the name of someone without being introduced? Think about sipping an ale quietly at the tavern and listening to other's conversations? Someone shouting after another one or simply calling their name when you are around? Some characters, like mine, will simply not go to people cause they are too shy and will just listening to others. Our name labels are like our faces. Since there is no real way to look different from other characters, they should be used in that way. Give me a game where i can customize my clothing AND my face, my body, well.. everything.. and i would say no label is required. But this is not the case (and don't take this as a complain) so we need something that will do as " right.. i saw this person before.. " or "Here, this is my friend!" and it's the name label. I think for the guild we should have the option to hide or show it though. and to toggle between the two states. I'm used to write it in my description, but often we don't have the time to read it cause of the rp or some players will read it once, once in a while. But it would be nice everybody know that we dont walk around with our name hanging over our head.. cause yes, some see this as ic knowledge. The need for an introduction would be acting totally ooc for many situations. How often my guildmates or friends have showed me someone form far and told me : "the one with the blue cloak, the scar on the paw, this is X". We havent been introduced but i know them, ic. I think i've said enough on this.

One word: Description...
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Raa on December 12, 2007, 09:07:13 pm
So... What if you were talking about someone in the crowd, but didn't know his name, so you read the description? Let's say there were a ton of people, most everyone didn't know each other, and there wasn't enough time to read all the descriptions. They wouldn't want to go through the trouble of checking the description of every character; that would take too much time.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Liadan on December 12, 2007, 09:15:20 pm
So... What if you were talking about someone in the crowd, but didn't know his name, so you read the description? Let's say there were a ton of people, most everyone didn't know each other, and there wasn't enough time to read all the descriptions. They wouldn't want to go through the trouble of checking the description of every character; that would take too much time.


that would either force people to actually write a description, or make theirs shorter. This does cause some problems because there are a few who just do physical descriptions, and others who tell their life story. Then if you're like me and have multiple chars running at the same time...but i digress...
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Parallo on December 12, 2007, 09:19:22 pm
Life stories should not be there.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Raa on December 12, 2007, 09:43:14 pm
Well, some people have them there, even if it is dumb.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Liadan on December 12, 2007, 09:47:01 pm
Life stories should not be there.

true, but it says description, not Physical description or only-what-others-can-see description.  Very misleading. ;)
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Phinehas on December 12, 2007, 10:06:43 pm
Actually, it's not misleading at all. If I asked you to describe someone you knew, I doubt you'd start in on their life story. Usually you'd tell me what they looked like, and probably some stuff about who they were as an individual, character, personality, things of that sort. Those are the sorts of things that are generally acceptable in the description because, and I know this part is hard to grasp... it's a description.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Parallo on December 12, 2007, 10:11:35 pm
Describe him.

Well, he was born in a remote village and his parents were killed by bandits. Ring any bells?
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Liadan on December 12, 2007, 10:14:07 pm
Actually, it's not misleading at all. If I asked you to describe someone you knew, I doubt you'd start in on their life story. Usually you'd tell me what they looked like, and probably some stuff about who they were as an individual, character, personality, things of that sort. Those are the sorts of things that are generally acceptable in the description because, and I know this part is hard to grasp... it's a description.


That depends on each individual person though. You may start off by telling them what they looked like, but if they are not someone who has any distinguishing features, then you may start by giving a life story.  Say Harry Potter for example.  How would you start to describe him to a someone who didn't know who he was? Most likely you would by saying he's a boy wizard who survived an attack by his nemesis...etc. 

Besides, not everyone uses their little grey cells as much as you.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Under the moon on December 12, 2007, 11:30:12 pm
Actually, I would start by saying he was a scrawny lad who wore round glasses and had a Z shaped scar on his forhead that he tried to keep covered most of the time with somewhat unruly hair.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: steuben on December 12, 2007, 11:37:07 pm
umm... who's this harry potter?

but i'm reserving judgement until it begins to affect me then i'll just simply shrug and move on.
Title: Re: Introductions for Players
Post by: Martine on December 13, 2007, 01:52:11 pm
Actually, I would start by saying he was a scrawny lad who wore round glasses and had a Z shaped scar on his forhead that he tried to keep covered most of the time with somewhat unruly hair.

With a Z on his forehead, he is a victim of Zorro.