PlaneShift
Support => Forum and Website Discussions => Topic started by: Sangwa on January 17, 2008, 11:37:00 am
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I would enjoy, once and for all, that people would stop panicking any time I, or anyone else, delivers a perspective. There is never a reason for fearing the perspective of other people.
Since I began leading the Dark Empire, most of you won't remember when that was, I've been asking people to give me their opinion about it. Whenever I do something within my guild I usually put it up for discussion, so that my members can help me tune my own ideas. I look for their criticism because I am completely sure I don't know everything. If you ask any Imperial active in the forums, he or she can probably tell you that. In fact, I criticize my own work. That is obvious in some of my threads about the Dark Empire and in some posts within my private forums.
Actually, the people with leadership command in my organization are not only close to me, they are also capable of telling me what they are thinking without having to care about my reaction to it. And I wouldn't have it any other way. I don't want people patting me in the back, I want help to improve myself and my organization.
So why do I have to be met with a knife or a club each time I visit someone else's thread to give my opinion? I'd be lying if I said that takes my motivation, because I do enjoy discussing. But as a guild moderator I can not have my threads filled up with useless rhetorical or personal discussions.
In this Thread I want you guys to tell me if you think I'm criticizing things the right way and if you think anything could be done to avoid these silly clashes that happen any time two people express different opinions.
Have fun!
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Crush their puny minds with your criticism, I say!
Seriously though, I've been reading some of the criticisms that you've offered, and I agree with what you're saying here... I think people have gone soft since I left off haunting the guild forums and have lost their perspective on criticism. In fact, this whole community has turned into a place where it's more important to be politically correct and polite than it is to have a valid opinion that may be helpful to others. It's sad.
I'm going to come back to the guild forums so that people can get some perspective and go back to the days when everyone there hated me, and Sangwa was the good guy.
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I hate when all I can offer is the word "same". :P
I don't read up on very many guild posts, but I agree that people can't stand their ideas being worse than someone else's, or someone trying to correct them and help them out. There's a point where people "side with" the person who's acting more polite in discussions like that...it creates a problem.
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Actually, the people with leadership command in my organization are not only close to me, they are also capable of telling me what they are thinking without having to care about my reaction to it. And I wouldn't have it any other way. I don't want people patting me in the back, I want help to improve myself and my organization.
You answerred for me.
Just one thing I want to add though ... drop your jealousy or dislike of the Dark Empire guild and stop associating it with everything Sangwa says. It is immature to fend off criticism by making accusations that have nothing to do with the discussion. :P If you don't agree with criticism that is perfectly fine, not everyone thinks the same or likes the same things. Just say so then but don't go jumping up like something bit you and attack the person who made a remark. Attack the remark if you must, shrug it off if you want.
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I don't read up on very many guild posts, but I agree that people can't stand their ideas being worse than someone else's, or someone trying to correct them and help them out. There's a point where people "side with" the person who's acting more polite in discussions like that...it creates a problem.
My opinions are merely opinions. I usually only speak when I believe I'm right, or when I assume my participation can help, but I comprehend that it is possible that my opinions aren't applicable. And I still respect players who don't do exactly as I tell them, or anything that I tell them.
A good example is Duraza, whose projects I've continuously criticized, but he has never snapped at me. He took whatever he thought made sense for him and discarded the rest, without calling me rude, bitter or angry. He makes use of what we tell him in his own way: freezing some topics and approaching others.
He never changed whole guilds (which was pretty much what I asked in some stances) and kept faithful to his own ideas. And I respected and still respect him for that.
If you don't agree with criticism that is perfectly fine, not everyone thinks the same or likes the same things. Just say so then but don't go jumping up like something bit you and attack the person who made a remark. Attack the remark if you must, shrug it off if you want.
This is exactly what I'm trying to say.
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Constructive criticism is a good thing. It is true not all people can take it. It is the way it is said that matters.
Example: “I do not think that pink top goes with that brown skirt.” Or “You look terrible, change your clothes.”
Mom always said, “Be careful of what you say because it can come back to bite you.”
Just food for thought for all people.
Respectively Yours,
Leama.
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Constructive criticism is a good thing. It is true no all people can take it. It is the way it is said that matters.
It takes time to write a critique up, and time to search for what to speak about. It would take even more time if we would have to run a debug program for each sentence we make. "Will this be funny? Will this annoy? Will this sound ridiculous? Will this be taken seriously?" So critics are often left to follow their own personalities while writing up an essay on someone's work. As long as no personal attacks are made "You are a moron, you can't even dress yourself" and the point gets through "That skirt looks horrible, take it off." then things should be well. Obviously the replies to opinions should differ depending on the personality of the critic "Hey, I really like my skirt! You know, you could be nicer."
Any regulatory role can be thankless; one's good work and precious time is rarely if ever acknowledged. But by opening this thread and reminding people of your duties I am sure we can resume healthy debate.
I don't mind going without appreciation and I'll remain on my role for just as long as I am kept there, currently without regrets. This post is part of my effort to improve my own work. It'll be a lot more easier if there isn't any critics vs project members duels.
On a side note, to clarify something, giving opinions isn't my duty. My duty is moderating the forums so when users go there they can find Guild Discussion and Guild Information. Offering points of view is everyone's duty if they feel like participating in the Guild Forums.
Hence why this has worried me enough, because I am a moderator and I can not do a good job if I have people against me.
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I applaud Sangwa's hard work. This is certainly not an easy job.
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Sangwa, I'd say it would be good if you tried to surround your critique with a bit more of friendliness. The hamburger model is classic: start with something nice or something you agree with, then give your opinion and finish with something nice.
It would be nice if people could take your direct way of giving your opinion and would realize you are trying to help them. But since they don't you'd better adopt or prepare to be ignored and attacked. Being (overly) friendly is not the same as being politically correct and does not have to distract from what you are actually want to say. It's rather the other way around. When people feel offended they fight back and tend to ignore the actual content. If you want your posts to have an effect, you have to adopt your level of directness to the person and the topic you are addressing. Guilds are usually sensible topics because members are often very attached to their guild.
I'd say do what works: be kind to people who want to be treated kindly, be direct to people who want to be treated in a more direct way. Also you have three handicaps: you're a guild leader, a forum mod and an oldbie. That creates a distance and makes it more likely for people to react defensively.
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Also you have three handicaps: you're a guild leader, a forum mod and an oldbie. That creates a distance and makes it more likely for people to react defensively.
That is not acceptable then is it? Why should any of these three facts lead to someone's reacting defensively? Surely the point of criticism is to take on board points that are valid on the one hand, and either to reject or to argue against points that aren't on the other.
If one is not responding to the contents of another's arguments but is instead allowing oneself to be swayed by external factors, that does not bode well for rational discussion, does it not?
Yes, you are absolutely right. Ideally, it should not make a difference. However in practice sometimes it does, which indeed harms a rational discussion. I don't know why exactly. Maybe they are afraid that they are looked down upon to, and hence feel the need to defend themselves.
I'm not saying it's bad to combine those things by the way, it has advantages as well.
EDIT: You make some very pertinent points on the use of tone Hitancrias, but I think we should insist on creating and expecting an atmosphere where one can clearly and politely state one's views without trying to second guess the psychological state of the recipient.
EDIT:
Haha, that last remark made me laugh. :D. When in doubt, I usually picture a highly sensitive person on the other side of the line, just to be safe.
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This thread should be locked, I totally disagree with the person that started it and I find him to be a most awful human being.
Now with that off my chest, Sangwa a person with your status in the community is bound to get certain people following your every step and criticizing everything you write. I know that you are a fair debater and you always think before you write. I wouldn't worry too much about people disagreeing with your opinion.
Sometimes I think people take this forum way too serious, they should spend more time in-game rp-ing.
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Hitancrias, you are very right. And I try to do it like you say. But sometimes it evades my notice, as I get right down to writing what I think and forget to prop it up with the additional pleasantries. Other times it is just not possible, or very hard, to make a point without having the person kicking your sheen.
The difficult part is also calculating what is kind and what is simply lame. Last time I tried to start with a sort of joke, but I believe people saw it as a threat after reading what came next. I do admit my criticizing method was a bit direct, but it was hardly insulting or rude. Some other times I end up writing down stupid ridiculous stuff (that I edit) only to sound friendly.
It's true that when criticizing one should pay attention not to harm the person spoken to, but I believe it's also true that those listening should remember that they are not their guild and that opinions are opinions. I can say this because the Dark Empire has been criticized plenty and I never got really upset with any of its critics.
And expecting all critics to behave one way is like asking all project members to behave in a way. So we'd better go out and warn as many as we can from both sides.
I've even gotten this disclaimer in my signature, but people don't seem to take it for real.
EDIT TO ANSWER JEKKAR:
You're right :P.
I don't worry about them. I just like seeing the Guild Forum looking neat.
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Sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me. MMORPG gamers are a particularly neurotic bunch. [smiles and laughs] You are not overboard in your criticisms, Sangwa. Be polite, be concise, don't be hateful, but state your mind. I don't really think I have seen you do otherwise. Someone mentioned the forums now being too politically correct, which is kind of a flip-flop from the flamewar that was 2007... things will even out. I like it when the forums stick to the game and stay away from personal confrontations, and I think the mods have been doing a good job recently.
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First let me say I have nothing but respect for Sangwa and what he has done with the DE and its various branches.
My reason for responding to that post was purely because it seemed a rather pointless attack for a very petty reason, sure there was some off topic non guild stuff in there but no more than there is any other thread.
The rest rather than being constructive seemed to show a lack of knowledge about the internal workings of our guild ranks by telling us to do what we already do and questioning the way Printh is set up to use a loophole in settings something quite a few other guilds do. The whole tone of the post was negative and aggressive rather than constructive so I apologise for responding in kind
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Sangwa, I have no problem with your critique... about the 'pleasantries' that people share, which to some are meaningless, and other's mean a lot - yes they could be tidied. But, It would have been nice for you to perhaps nudge the thread owner about this... say in a PM. I am sure we would have come to an agreement there - as yes.. some threads are getting messy - mine one of them.
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Aw, quit yer navel gazing and get back to bashing the feebs! You know they want it, you know they need it. So just glue it to their foreheads.
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First let me say I have nothing but respect for Sangwa and what he has done with the DE and its various branches.
My reason for responding to that post was purely because it seemed a rather pointless attack for a very petty reason, sure there was some off topic non guild stuff in there but no more than there is any other thread.
The rest rather than being constructive seemed to show a lack of knowledge about the internal workings of our guild ranks by telling us to do what we already do and questioning the way Printh is set up to use a loophole in settings something quite a few other guilds do. The whole tone of the post was negative and aggressive rather than constructive so I apologise for responding in kind
That's right, keep digging your whole. Basically you're saying, I respect Sangwa, but what he had to say has no merit whatsoever, so rather than read it carefully and take suggestions, or at least accept that perhaps your guild is giving off the wrong perception and you should change how it is portrayed, if not how it's run, you essentially went defensive and attacked his post... again.
Anyway, for my part I'm sick of the idea that the actual poster is the only one who has to make concessions and that the person that the post is directed towards is justified in completely rejecting it and getting defensive if it's not worded "nicely". I'm not saying that completely rude posts are called for, I'm just saying you do need to have a little bit of a thick skin in life in general. People have said that "it's how you say it" that's important. Bull. I live my life by the principle that even people I don't like, or that I think don't know what they're talking about, or who are just rude may still have some significant insight into whatever it is about me they're criticizing, and that while I don't feel the need to thank them for their rudeness, I can at least keep quiet until I've had a chance to calm down and really think through what they've said. Sure it's nice when people are nice to you, but sometimes it doesn't happen. In Sangwa's case, he doesn't mean to be offensive, and objectively speaking he's not, but you can't please anyone. I grinned when I read his post/joke about the need to clean up the thread, but apparently other people were offended. For my part, I've actually had people get upset with me about the fact that I commented on their grammar as an afterthought of my post.
Like Sangwa, I'll use Duraza as an example... I criticized his RP in a way that would have offended probably 70% of people on these forums, and instead of getting all haughty and telling me I was a moron who didn't know what he was talking about, a week later I got a reply from him saying that I had a valid point and that he was implementing some changes. Good for him. For the rest of you, even if the critique is rude, chill... It's just a game, it's not like someone is questioning the purpose of your existence or your ability to be a valid member of society.
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The rest rather than being constructive seemed to show a lack of knowledge about the internal workings of our guild ranks by telling us to do what we already do.
Have you considered that that says more about the state of your guild thread than about Sangwa?
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First let me say I have nothing but respect for Sangwa and what he has done with the DE and its various branches.
My reason for responding to that post was purely because it seemed a rather pointless attack for a very petty reason, sure there was some off topic non guild stuff in there but no more than there is any other thread.
The rest rather than being constructive seemed to show a lack of knowledge about the internal workings of our guild ranks by telling us to do what we already do and questioning the way Printh is set up to use a loophole in settings something quite a few other guilds do. The whole tone of the post was negative and aggressive rather than constructive so I apologise for responding in kind
That's right, keep digging your whole. Basically you're saying, I respect Sangwa, but what he had to say has no merit whatsoever, so rather than read it carefully and take suggestions, or at least accept that perhaps your guild is giving off the wrong perception and you should change how it is portrayed, if not how it's run, you essentially went defensive and attacked his post... again.
Anyway, for my part I'm sick of the idea that the actual poster is the only one who has to make concessions and that the person that the post is directed towards is justified in completely rejecting it and getting defensive if it's not worded "nicely". I'm not saying that completely rude posts are called for, I'm just saying you do need to have a little bit of a thick skin in life in general. People have said that "it's how you say it" that's important. Bull. I live my life by the principle that even people I don't like, or that I think don't know what they're talking about, or who are just rude may still have some significant insight into whatever it is about me they're criticizing, and that while I don't feel the need to thank them for their rudeness, I can at least keep quiet until I've had a chance to calm down and really think through what they've said. Sure it's nice when people are nice to you, but sometimes it doesn't happen. In Sangwa's case, he doesn't mean to be offensive, and objectively speaking he's not, but you can't please anyone. I grinned when I read his post/joke about the need to clean up the thread, but apparently other people were offended. For my part, I've actually had people get upset with me about the fact that I commented on their grammar as an afterthought of my post.
Like Sangwa, I'll use Duraza as an example... I criticized his RP in a way that would have offended probably 70% of people on these forums, and instead of getting all haughty and telling me I was a moron who didn't know what he was talking about, a week later I got a reply from him saying that I had a valid point and that he was implementing some changes. Good for him. For the rest of you, even if the critique is rude, chill... It's just a game, it's not like someone is questioning the purpose of your existence or your ability to be a valid member of society.
So if i ask whether or no you meant 'whole' or 'hole' you won't get mad? schweet deal.
And I'm curious, is this thread supposed to be about lack of taking criticism with a pinch of salt or is it mostly going to be about the DE guild?
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The Dark Empire of course, everything is about the Dark Empire! You should know that by now ::)
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I believe some people here are not used to read the Guild Forums. I have avoided off topicness many times in many other threads in exactly the same way I did with this last one. I come in, ask people to stay focused and deliver my opinion so people can play with it for a while and generate information.
You are not the first person to snap at me. It also doesn't happen with me alone. That is why I've started this topic. One simple incident wouldn't be enough to get my attention.
Lolitra, the forum exists for discussion. All guilds have similar discussions to them. I am doing what has been done since always. I've repeated the same through PM's to Gag who PM'ed me, but that's because I felt I had to.
EDIT TO ADD: Let's not make this about the last thread though!
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So why do I have to be met with a knife or a club each time I visit someone else's thread to give my opinion? I'd be lying if I said that takes my motivation, because I do enjoy discussing. But as a guild moderator I can not have my threads filled up with useless rhetorical or personal discussions.
Hey Sangwa, could be worse... people could be coming after you with a knife and fork. :P
Anyway, I've always seen you as a pretty level headed and straight forward forum moderator and was glad when you were put in charge of the Guild Forums. Overall I think you are doing a quality job and are capable of doing what a lot of people aren't; moderating without letting personal feelings overwhelmingly get in the way. However, I did have a couple thoughts on your critiques.
First off, make sure if you open with a joke that it's a good one. :P (or at least one that won't be taken the wrong way if the tone doesn't quite come across right.) If the right tone of the message isn't established in the beginning, it can skew everything that follows, even if it wasn't written with the intent of being overly critical, goofy, etc. I don't think this is usually a problem for you though so, I'll just blame any possible recent occurrences on the writer's strike. ;)
Secondly, while I like and often can relate to your "cut to the chase" approach. It wouldn't hurt at least trying to remember to jump in initially with some of the basic pleasantries. Sometimes the critiques seem to pop up rather abruptly and kind of hit a person right between the eyes. It's sort of like seeing an old friend you haven't talked to for a while, walking up to them, and saying "I know why your girlfriend left you." Instead of at least starting out with a nice "Hey Fred! Long time no see. How's the family?"
Lastly, I think maybe the critiques would be most effective if they were, in general, focused on helping new(er) guilds that are trying to find their way. Now, I'm not saying that old guilds should be off limits for criticism just that, if a guild has people that care enough about it to keep it going for any substantial amount of time, it seems to me that they probably have their own core of people, like you have with the Dark Empire, (<--Thread specific obligatory DE reference. \\o//) that are doing their best to improve the guild. Basically, I'd like to think that as well as you know the Dark Empire (<---Bonus Points x2) as their current leader, that other long time leaders probably have a pretty good feel for their guild as well, and arguably should be given the benefit of the doubt. Or put another way since I know not all "old" guilds are necessarily "good" guilds... Don't try to teach an old groffel new tricks. Save the pups instead! :P
Alright, I think I've chewed up enough of the forum's space. I applaud how you opened yourself up to comments about how you critique/moderate, it takes a lot of guts.
-Marq
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First off, make sure if you open with a joke that it's a good one.
Guilty.
Sometimes the critiques seem to pop up rather abruptly and kind of hit a person right between the eyes.
Guilty...
I think maybe the critiques would be most effective if they were, in general, focused on helping new(er) guilds that are trying to find their way.
I don't agree. I think every guild should be criticized for as long as people can come up with stuff to point at. I expect that same treatment on my own threads, because I want my guilds to improve, not to be stopped in time while people continuously and secretly laugh at the flaws they find. *paranoid*
Besides, I think I've hit all the new guilds already.
Concluding: foreplay, then the real thing. I get it, I get it. Oh, and no jokes.
Thanks.
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In this Thread I want you guys to tell me if you think I'm criticizing things the right way and if you think anything could be done to avoid these silly clashes that happen any time two people express different opinions.
What I have read on the guilds threads from you Sangwa is this ....
- Major thought goes into your posts (You don't post to just post)
- You are fair and accept peoples opinions even if they are not your own
- You are passionate about this game and want to see the guilds in this game functional not just empty with players massed together.
- You explain yourself when misunderstood in a professional manner
- You guide those who are new to the game in the right direction when making a guild
- You never give the impression that your guild is the best and everyone should be more like you. (This is just my opinoin from what I have read)
- You give people new ideas or take their old ones and help to make more of it .. to better it for lack of a better word.
I think when you give criticism Sangwa it is because you have a talent with running your guild, not to mention experience. I think this entitles you to dish out a little criticism here and there. You have earned your place in this community and I would hope the community agree's with this. Your only trying to help those who might not have considered other options before setting in stone what their guild is about or how it runs. I believe your criticism is not anything but helpful. I have never known you to be rude or pretend like your shit don't stink sooooo it boils down to it isn't you who is the problem, it is the people on the receiving end of the criticism that are at fault. Especially if they view your criticism like a personal attack. There isn't anything you could really do better in my opinoin. There also isn't anyway to prevent peoples feeling from being hurt when you do give your opinoin. I say just keep up with your hard work on ensuring that th guilds in this game are anything but empty.
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So if i ask whether or no you meant 'whole' or 'hole' you won't get mad? schweet deal.
Of course not. Why would I? I mean, if it's a typo then I can either be grateful that you pointed it out and go back and change it(if it bothers me), or I can ignore it and move on if I don't care. If it's something grammatical that I actually didn't know, the same thing applies. If I'm concerned about it, I take it to heart. If not, it doesn't really bother me.
First off, make sure if you open with a joke that it's a good one.
Guilty.
Hey, I thought it was hilarious! Admittedly, that may not be the best testimony to whether or not it was good, but...
Also, Zorbels stated my opinion perfectly. Yay for her. And me. And Sangwa.
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I will not tolerate further sympathy. No. Not on my watch.
And it even applies here! Marqsaynt, I think I'll take back my guiltiness from that one.
Anyway, thanks both who criticized me and those who complimented me. I'll try to improve.
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Firstly, to both Sangwa and Phinehas. You two need to stop with the kind words about me, it's going to go to my head and a big ego doesn't help me in my goal to stay modest :P
Secondly, this all just reminds me of another thread about a slightly different topic but I believe all and all the same message. When reading another post do not read it and associate emotions with the words. Reading a post in the forums isn't like reading a book or roleplaying when the emotion will be clearly stated. It's not like talking to someone else where you can see the person's facial expressions when speaking so you can tell whether they are trying to say something rudely or politely. We are all different people and we all respond to things in different ways. This means that it is natural to make the mistake of taking offence to someone's words but you must remember it is equally natural for that other person to have not thought those words were offensive in the first place.
When it comes to me I'm the kind of person who doesn't mind a good argument and can actually enjoy it when people find loopholes in whatever I'm doing. Then I simply fix the loophole and when its an idea I have confidence in then I rather show the ideas effectiveness then proving it, not getting emtional about it and furthering what can be useless argument.
So basically, when you read a post I'd always do one of two things.
1.) Read a post that offends you again so you can maybe understand what the person is trying to say and calm yourself so you can respond in a more effective way that only challenges the arguers statements, not his or her emotions behind it.
2.) Imagine that the poster is saying those words in front of an audience in their underwear (or something else embarrasing for those who think thats too disturbing) ;)
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1.) Read a post that offends you again so you can maybe understand what the person is trying to say and calm yourself so you can respond in a more effective way that only challenges the arguers statements, not his or her emotions behind it.
Interesting, I do this. I read the first time, then I hit reply and read it a second time on the topic summary. Then as I pick things to speak about I read a third time some of the stuff.
Another thing I do is re-reading my own post. The first time around I usually repeat myself or add defying sentences (I get carried away, I'm still 20), so the second read allows me to remove those things.
2.) Imagine that the poster is saying those words in front of an audience in their underwear (or something else embarrasing for those who think thats too disturbing)
It's not very disturbing, as I'm cool with general human anatomy aesthetics, but it can be a little disrespecting in some cases. There are players old enough to be our parents.
You two need to stop with the kind words about me, it's going to go to my head and a big ego doesn't help me in my goal to stay modest
Phinehas, how could this simpleton see through our master plan?
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You two need to stop with the kind words about me, it's going to go to my head and a big ego doesn't help me in my goal to stay modest
Phinehas, how could this simpleton see through our master plan?
Inconceivable! We must use our Jedi(or Azure Way in my case) mind powers upon him!
Another thing that I would add to what Duraza said is that if a post can in any way be construed as sarcastic or amusing, rather than offensive, construe it that way. Take Sangwa's joke for instance, it never would have crossed my mind to be offended at that, as it was obviously just in fun. I refuse to believe that the majority of this community is so utterly lacking in senses of humor as to not be able to see a little friendly sarcasm, or good-natured fun-poking.
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Sarcasm is usually meant to be offensive. Not always 'die in your sleep!' offensive and it can be lightened by careful crafting but it is mostly at someone else's expense. In jokes can be misconstrued by those who are out and used to justify hurt feelings and their expression. One should always be careful what you say and to whom on a public forum.
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I think maybe the critiques would be most effective if they were, in general, focused on helping new(er) guilds that are trying to find their way.
I don't agree. I think every guild should be criticized for as long as people can come up with stuff to point at. I expect that same treatment on my own threads, because I want my guilds to improve, not to be stopped in time while people continuously and secretly laugh at the flaws they find. *paranoid*
Besides, I think I've hit all the new guilds already.
I actually agree with you, just don't be surprised if more established guilds are much, much more resistant to criticism (constructive or otherwise) than some guilds just starting up. Was more of a "pearls before swine" thought, as in why bother? But, since you've already burned through all the newer guilds, knock yourself out and enjoy (everyone needs a hobby :P). Just don't be too surprised if your critiques receive a tepid reception.
I will not tolerate further sympathy. No. Not on my watch.
Hey I personally thought it was funny this time around! Helps knowing the context. Plus, I know you aren't a moderator on this particular section of the PS forums so, it couldn't be anything but a comical comment. *hint hint* (Call it one of the drawbacks of having power. ;)) Anyway, glad you aren't giving up on the jokes, the forums, and the world in general, would be a pretty boring place if everyone was always serious about everything.
Concluding: foreplay, then the real thing. I get it, I get it. Oh, and no jokes.
And cuddling afterwards? ...Wait, what are we talking about again? Depending on the situation the jokes could either be a good idea or a really really bad one. :P (Sorry, couldn't resist.)
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Just don't be too surprised if your critiques receive a tepid reception.
I should point out that this kind of stuff has happened over and over again. I'm not surprised by any specific situation, I'm just a bit tired of having to go through it everytime. I enjoy discussing, but it gets less entertaining when it becomes repetitive: Critic, Angry-Reply, Softer Critic, Still-Angry Reply.
Plus, I know you aren't a moderator on this particular section of the PS forums so, it couldn't be anything but a comical comment. *hint hint*
I felt the sentence in question was very absurd and for that reason impossible to be taken seriously. Within my post it seemed the most unlikely thing to annoy people...
The comment after it was the serious part. Why would people take the joke as my moderating action rather than taking what I wrote right after? I don't really agree that the joke was out of place. In fact, it was supposed to be the kind introduction to my post. Playful, then serious. Introduction, then comment.
It seems like it was a bad joke in that context though (because few got it). But a joke there was certainly not out of place.
And cuddling afterwards? ...Wait, what are we talking about again? Depending on the situation the jokes could either be a good idea or a really really bad one
What do you mean? I don't get it. Am I not supposed to be friendly first then get to the real part of the critique? You're confusing.
*winks discretly*
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Plus, I know you aren't a moderator on this particular section of the PS forums so, it couldn't be anything but a comical comment. *hint hint*
I felt the sentence in question was very absurd and for that reason impossible to be taken seriously. Within my post it seemed the most unlikely thing to annoy people...
The comment after it was the serious part. Why would people take the joke as my moderating action rather than taking what I wrote right after? I don't really agree that the joke was out of place. In fact, it was supposed to be the kind introduction to my post. Playful, then serious. Introduction, then comment.
It seems like it was a bad joke in that context though (because few got it). But a joke there was certainly not out of place.
That's just it... I've come to the conclusion that there are so many shallow superficial people out there who would actually say directly insulting or downright ridiculous things, that they don't see it as absurd. For instance, I know Sangwa and given what I know of him, and how I perceive the world based on who I am, I wouldn't have taken that joke as anything but hilarious. Apparently, however, there are people out there who would actually say something like that, and so assume that Sangwa would, too. So basically, Sangwa, it becomes your fault that other people are immature.
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Apparently, however, there are people out there who would actually say something like that, and so assume that Sangwa would, too. So basically, Sangwa, it becomes your fault that other people are immature.
So that's whose fault it is! :P
Anyway, thanks Sangwa for making me realize the blissful life of someone that's not a moderator. I'll gladly leave board politics and all the little things a mod needs to worry about to an expert politician of the Empire. ;)
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Suffice it to say that Sangwa isn't the reason for my sig.
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I won't tolerate further sympathy and kindness. No. Not on my watch.
Is this what the thread is all about, primarily? In a forum you do not moderate and have no ability to administer: not a big deal. In a forum you do have moderation responsibilities it is unwise to make any joke with respect to how you may use the powers associated with the responsibilities. It may seem funny to you and those who know it cannot be true but that will not include all users. Even if you have the best moderation ability possible it is always a subjective task and sometimes people will disagree with your decision. It does not help if there is a perception that you are easier on some than others although that is unavoidable.
Users must be able to trust the people charged with moderation and any jokes about abuse of those powers diminishes that trust.
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/me laughs at Bilbous and everyone else who has no sense of humor, or believes that having authority means that one cannot make jokes about how one will wield it.
Again, just because other people project their immaturity onto Sangwa and assume that he's such a complete doofus as to actually mean something like that, doesn't mean he has to tiptoe around from now. I'm not saying go around randomly threatening people for the fun of it, but there's no harm in a joke once in a while... especially when you have an impeccable and lengthy reputation for fairness to back it up.
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Laugh all you want, I do not need to project any immaturity on you, you display it in spades. Maturity means taking your responsibilities seriously. People get strange sometimes when they have undue stress and do unlikely things.
The more you joke about abusing your powers the easier it is to actually do so at a time when your judgment is impaired for whatever reason because "hey! I warned them!"
Let me be clear. I am not suggesting that I expect this to happen to Sangwa but if at some point down the line, he is having problems making the mortgage and car payments, his wife is taking him to the cleaners in the divorce, his cat just shredded the paper copy of the big presentation he is expected to give this morning to the president of the company, the only other copy in on that hard drive that just died and some ingrate on the stupid forum just ragged on him unjustly he might just say to hell with this and delete the whole forum he is responsible for. God forbid any of this happening.
But hey it is a joke, right? so laugh it up, Phinehas!
Scorching mind, my eye! Fever dream is more like it. Make like Jack Handey and repeat your sig into a mirror daily.
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Aww... did someone get upset?
Now see, here we go... You get upset and resort to personal attacks, and so that means Sangwa will, too. You seem to rather prove my point than otherwise.
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Independant from if that's true I must say that bilbous has a better point than you in my eyes.
I wanted to write more earlier in this thread but it's hard to explain, so just so much: Think on the fact that it will be humans that read your posts, they do have feelings and you shouldn't just ignore what your words can cause.
Well, others, started with Leama and hitancrias wrote already about how I think about it.
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I'm not saying throw all caution to the wind. I'm just saying that in my opinion posters get blamed for everything, but the people who over-exaggerate offenses or choose to read offense into an ambiguous statement are rarely held accountable for it. For the record, I'm not defending myself here, I'm defending Sangwa. I have yet to ever see Sangwa say anything that could not, with very little effort, be taken in the way he meant it. And I have never seen Sangwa mean something to be insulting or offensive.
Of course, very few people will ever listen to me, because today life is about, "let's all just get along" and political correctness, and politics, and don't tread on anyone's toes, and nobody really cares about whether a point is valid or not, as long as nobody's feelings are hurt. *shrug*
What makes me laugh is that the people I seriously respect from this community are mostly on the side of "it wouldn't hurt if people's skin was a little thicker", or at least take a middle ground, whereas the people who have not earned my respect in any particular way are the people who take the "how dare you, you big meanie" side.
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Authority brings responcibility, like a chain that clusters you to ponder and overponder every word you say and every action you take ... for it just might so happen to be that that word ends up in the wrong ear or that action results in the wrong toes being stepped on. A leader should be a slave to the ones he leads.
... I've heard that opinion before on these forums and just like I did then I'll completely disagree now.
Just because you got upset by something a person higher up the chain has done doesn't mean that you can blame it all on them. Yet still a lot of people do it that way. "He's my boss, I expect him to be better than me so this is all his fault! Not mine!" People make mistakes, they have to make mistakes in order to become better people. So demanding that someone in charge avoids all chance of making a mistake with someone is forcing them to stop growing and improving. It's simply counterproductive.
Bilbous, your expectations are the main reason why leadership is elevated to such a counterproductive superhuman status if you ask me. While most good people would never want to take up such a status. I know Sangwa doesn't, he never has ... so why would you want to force him into it and make things less pleasant for both Sangwa and the rest of us?
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Suffice it to say that Sangwa isn't the reason for my sig.
Well thanks for letting us all know with spamming this thread. We will all sleep better now knowing where you have gone. *coughs*
@phinehas: I am not completely sure but I think that your misreading Bibous. :) I don't read him as upset. As for the "people can have thicker skin" bit, well I partly agree but I also partly disagree. Just because you have a tough interior doesn't mean that everyone else will. There are people who are sensitive. There isn't anything wrong with that. With the way you talk about it though you make it out to be like it is a bad thing. Why? I will never understand that. (Perhaps I misunderstand?)
@Everyone: I know one thing though. When having authority over people of all ages it can be hard to moderate. It takes a good mod to know his people on the forums and act accordingly not just to the rules of the forums but to have some what of an idea of the posters personalitiy and word criticism in a way that they will understand. So if someone shows that they can take criticism then you don't have to watch so much how you word something. If you know the poster is relatively sensitive then a good moderater will take the time to word the post in such a way that it can't be taken with to much offense. I think Sangwa is a good moderator. I believe he considers other peoples feelings and not just his own.
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So what you are saying is like Ol' Georgie W. B. should be able to joke "hey Iran, Do not listen to what we talkin 'bout, I'm jus' itchin to push this l'il red button and wipe you from the earth! Yo' Canada! Gimme yer wood. I got this here button! Hoooeee Russia wanna play roulette with these here nukes?" Sure it is all fun and games until the cowpie lands on your head.
Oh and those who go about crafting the perfect ambiguous statement have a great career ahead of them in advertising, politics or the law.
How can you be defending Sangwa from an attack I did not make on him? I just laid it out the way that it is.
And by the way your derisive laughter was the first personal attack in the exchange so you sow what you reap.
Anyway, I do not really care about this but he asked for opinions and I gave him my seasoned perspective. If it is not to your taste maybe it will be once it has aged a bit.
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Well thanks for letting us all know with spamming this thread. We will all sleep better now knowing where you have gone. *coughs*
What the hell is wrong with you? My post was meant as a way to support Sangwa's thread because he makes a really good point and anything else I would say would just be redundant, and you still take issue with it.
So what you are saying is like Ol' Georgie W. B. should be able to joke "hey Iran, Do not listen to what we talkin 'bout, I'm jus' itchin to push this l'il red button and wipe you from the earth! Yo' Canada! Gimme yer wood. I got this here button! Hoooeee Russia wanna play roulette with these here nukes?" Sure it is all fun and games until the cowpie lands on your head.
Way to completely overexaggerate the issue A forum moderator for a MMORPG game CAN NOT be compared to the President of the USA. I mean, come on...
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This is getting very boring. Neko I think it should be locked. The point of it was made and proven. Enough is enough!
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Sorry for answering so late ... as the deletion of one of my posts may be related to the reason starting this thread.
I still don't have the powers to think long enough about all and each word I may write here. There will be someone misunderstanding it anyway. Regardless of the fact that I am not a native english speaker. Just because one may see it as a sport to nitpick and to edge. I won't tell names here. Only that I don't address only or especially Sangwa hereby.
I don't like to talk about what happened much more. Before closing, I only want to tell you my opinions right after I read the last replies, and before I wrote that deleted reply -- which is already several days ago:
The way how Sangwa criticised the fact that people use a guild thread to tell in public about coming events, moving to the fact that the roots of our guild may not be strictly settings conformant, and finally questioning the purpose of our whole guild, finally escalated in a kind of "duel" between lanser (Hokinon/Zinn) and him, and hurt us a lot. And remembering that the player of Lolitra suffers a sometimes violent sickness, and sees this game as one of the few sources of joy in her life left to her, made it look even more cruel. It even led to her taking some time off to cope with this pain.
Sangwa, you may not have expected such a result. But questioning the purpose of a concept that was made for the roleplayers, for giving them plots to join, and to enjoy playing the game, was quite the most painful kind of criticism.
I am sure that Lolitra will have talked to you already in private. So I assume that you found a common point to agree. I will take it as a mistake, just because my opinion may have been just as wrong; as I said, I am not a native english speaker, I may have misunderstood the purpose of your criticizing.
I just wonder ... if this board software has the feature to cut off several posts from a thread into a new thread, so the discussion about the coming roleplay could have been discussed in the "Ingame roleplaying events" forum, instead of the guild thread. Might have been an easier solution.
Neko (and all the moderators): Please leave me a last chance to express my opinion. Don't delete this reply too, at least not without talking to me first, if I might have written something in an inacceptable way.
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What the hell is wrong with you? My post was meant as a way to support Sangwa's thread because he makes a really good point and anything else I would say would just be redundant, and you still take issue with it.
/me chuckles
:lol: Nothing is wrong with me. I just found it funny that your siggy says "Gone til we get better moderators" yet here you are posting.
Sorry I didn't catch in your post that you were supporting Sangwa. :whistling: It just looked more like a usless statment and an opportunity to take a shot at another mod rather than a support post to me. Hence my post. Anyway now that that is cleared up and you get where I was coming from, I guess this thread can move on hopefully. No need to lock the thread right peoples? We can all keep our wits about us and not turn this into a battle ground.
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I can. I'm not confident in other people's abilities to do so, however. Also, I think this thread has rather escalated from what Sangwa originally meant. Not that that's a bad thing, but...
For the rest, I wish Kiern would stick around longer. I enjoy his company. I have to say, as well, that it seemed pretty obvious to me that his original post was meant in support of Sangwa, and I was rather surprised at your comment about it, Zorbels. But that's water under the bridge.
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@Watermain: the difference is only one of degree. The fact remains that joking about abusing ones power is an abuse of that power because while it may engender hilarity to some it will only serve to intimidate others. It does not matter if the intimidation is intended or that the threats are empty. This negative effect can be foreseen by any reasonable person.
However I believe the thread is about more than this specific element and this has been done to death. If someone still does not get it then they likely won't get it anytime soon. My apologies to the OP for flogging a dead horse.
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Well, some people went over the board here. So much so that I haven't been able to give proper respect to each post, therefore reading only some of them.
First I'd like to leave it clear that the last thread criticized by me did bring me to post this, but it wouldn't have mattered if it was the only one. I've been into discussions with other players that were fouler than this one (considering we did reach a consensus in the end in the example currently "studied").
Second I am certain that there are people who have a faulty image of how forums work, others who have no sense humor and some even that can't take critiques. It's because I've found all kinds of these people that I have started this thread as well, because I felt that if everyone was better informed, then the chances of this happening again would diminish.
Third, but equally (if not more) important: I have indeed reached the conclusion that I require to present players with nicer, softer, lighter forms of critique.
I'll still avoid trying to act like I'm moderating idiots though, like Bilbous seemed to propose... Mostly because that'll make some players even more annoyed at me. I will think twice before using that particular kind of humor though.
Ligh's response still leaves me uneasy though. I don't think it should ever matter if players spent a second or a year creating a plot. They should have had fun while doing it and they should always be looking forward to improve themselves. I think players take critiques wrong because they are either too full of themselves, or fear they have been humiliated.
The fact is: if you respond well to a critique everyone that reads your reply will not only understand things better, they will notice there is common sense around. And that is always positive.
As a side note, I don't feel like moderating is a gruesome pain. I enjoy what I'm doing and I enjoy the overall opinion players have of me. If I wasn't enjoying this role I wouldn't be doing it, much like I wouldn't be playing PlaneShift if I didn't find it extremely entertaining.
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I am sorry you felt I was telling you to coddle the unenlightened, I thought I was telling you to show the position the proper respect regardless of the audience. I do admit that in the larger scheme of things this forum is not that important but if you get in the habit of diminishing the proprieties of power it may bite you in the butt someday when it really matters.
My advice was worth at least as much as you paid for it. :)
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I am sorry you felt I was telling you to coddle the unenlightened
regardless of the audience
The unenlightened are part of the audience... That's what I meant.