PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: elminster on March 24, 2003, 11:45:52 pm
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Hi!
Will ever be some sort of draw distance implemented, because the game is SLOW AS HELL!
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no.
Get a new machine.
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Hello again!
So you mean, that a feature, that EVERY PIECE of 3D engines, and games have, will NEVER be implemented? And I also think it is not true, because there was talk about it on IRC. The PS team was pondering on some sort of draw distance. I asked in my prev thread, but didn\'t get any answer for 2 weeks.
Is it under progress now?
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Originally posted by elminster
Hello again!
So you mean, that a feature, that EVERY PIECE of 3D engines, and games have, will NEVER be implemented?
At the moment it\'s not a priority because it is playable ( by most ) without having to do this.
And I also think it is not true, because there was talk about it on IRC. The PS team was pondering on some sort of draw distance. I asked in my prev thread, but didn\'t get any answer for 2 weeks.
Is it under progress now?
Hmm, not sure who you were talking to on IRC but I am not aware of any plans to work on this or anybody in the PS who is currently working on this.
Due to the nature of this project we tend to work on the most important things that will satisfy the most people. So we cannot work on every idea that everybody has. We just don\'t have the man power to do that. If you ( or somebody you know ) is willing to work on this feature then we will try our best to help them along.
There is lots of stuff I\'d like to put in but just don\'t have the a) knowledge yet b) time to do it c) incentive :)
We really depend on the community to not only give ideas but actively work on them and contribute stuff ( design documents, code snippets, links to good design articles, etc ) that we can use. Ideas like \"what don\'t you do ____?\" are not really useful to us unless you can clearly explain your idea and are willing to discuss it in great detail. Otherwise we just get burried under trying to work out the details.
Often times implementing an idea can literaly result in months of work. So we have to judge is that month going to be worth working on this one thing or can I do 4 other things in the same time that will make the game 10 times better.
I hope this explains a little better why all ideas are not done right away. It doesn\'t mean that we will never do it or it\'s necessarily a bad idea but we simply cannot do every single idea that people mention right away.
If people feel very strongly about their ideas then fire up your compiler, fire up your art tools, fire up your word processor and try to make your idea as complete as possible so we can easily use it. The better defined your idea the better chance you have of getting it ( potentially used ).
The fact is that we all usually work on what we want when we want ( as long as we are working on something useful ). If there is something that is not critical and nobody wants to do it then is just doesn\'t get done ( for a while ). It may not be be the best way but it has worked out pretty good so far as more members with different interests join the project.
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Andrew
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Greetings to you, great developers!
Thank you very much for your reply. Sorry for my flame, but sometimes I forget about myself, and also forget that this wonderful thing (which PlaneShift is) is done FREELY, with volunteers! Thank you for \"redirecting\" me to the right way of thinking about things, for which I really admire you. I know how hard and time consuming this is, and now I know how bad can it feel for you, when other people (like me) just yell at this project, and flame all around.
I will take your suggestions, and try something out, and if there is anything I can help you with, I will let you know. But don\'t expect much!......yet :)
Again, all I can do, is thank you all!
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Yours,
Oroszi Bal?zs
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Lol.. i virtualy never visit this particular part of teh forum, good thing i did this time, and I\'ll just to say this guy is not me ^_^... although he does have a point of opinion I also partake of with a further.
Vengence you truely are a snappy little lap dog and to think your a board moderator?.
anyway...
You can say this till your blue in the face elminster but they seem to get all glazed of eye when its mentioned or go into fervid rabidity.
And just to repeat, Elminster != Bigfoot
nice sarcasim on your last post El, that was sarcasim, wasnt it?.
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oh by the way venge if my machine (which is no wimp of a rig) runs slow as hell then i feel sorry for the people that have to follow your advice and get a new machine.
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Originally posted by Vengeance
no.
Get a new machine.
LOL!! :] Vengeance can be real helpful sometimes.
Myself thinks there should be a Draw Distance, not becouse it should be good at lowend computers but then we in 3d team can poly up..
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gimme the money for it Venge...and Ill do it with a smile :)
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Originally posted by TheDeath
gimme the money for it Venge...and Ill do it with a smile :)
No money 8) , do it for free :]
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Originally posted by acraig
don\'t have the a) knowledge yet b) time to do it c) incentive
as far as I once knew, setting up far clipping plane distance in OpenGL is as hard as passing an argument to a function. Or have things changed lately?
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Originally posted by Bigfoot
nice sarcasim on your last post El, that was sarcasim, wasnt it?.
If you mean sarcasm, then my answer is NO. Although it may sound sarcastic, it is not the reason, why I wrote, what I wrote. I was really impressed by Acraig, that after how I asked things (I mean rudely), he replied with absolute calmness, and with absolute common sense (or gumption or sanity - this is what my dictionary gave) - and without any offense.
This is what I truly admire in people. (That\'s why I wrote my real name at the end also...)
Strange? Well, this is me... :)
Anyway, why I was actually a bit upset is because I asked EVERYONE (including the CS mailing list and IRC) about draw distance, and I never got any answer at all. And what truly surprised me, that a Dev - which Acraig is, as far as I know :) - gave a so calm reply after all this. This also satisfied me with a good answer to my original question, and also made me think a bit about other things...
I hope I cleared this. And sorry for off-topicness, I hope this post or thread won\'t be deleted just because of this.
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Good day,
E.
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The reason I responded that way is because I\'m tired of debating this issue. Using far plane clipping is an *obvious* thing to do and if we aren\'t doing it, you should have faith that there is a good reason, or at least search for other threads to find the explanation.
Trust me, far plane clipping will not solve your performance problems.
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At the moment it\'s not a priority because it is playable ( by most ) without having to do this.
This is what acraig said, it sounds like hes saying that they will do it, just not right now.
If your tired of debating this issue then dont. simple as that. IF you dont have anything nice to say then dont say it at all.
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Originally posted by Vengeance
Using far plane clipping is an *obvious* thing to do and if we aren\'t doing it, you should have faith that there is a good reason
I am a very faithful person, so I will believe everything you say :)
Originally posted by Vengeance
Trust me, far plane clipping will not solve your performance problems.
Allright. You know, people like me think that
close draw distance = less polygons = higher framerate
At least, most games (all that I have seen so far) have the above equation... :)
I will take your suggetion and search the forum... but still I haven\'t found anything so far, so I\'ll just keep searching.
And also, I suppose the less far away polygons to render would make the ability to create higher poly models.
Anyway, why are there 2 request forums:
A Wishlist and a Feature Request? What\'s the difference?
I \"Wish\" the game was a bit faster, and also I think it would be a good \"Feature\" to have draw distance... :)
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Greets,
E.
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This forum is called \"Forum Requests\" not \"Feature Requests\".
Using far plane clipping reduces your polygon count but requires you to do other things to not have it be obvious that you have far plane clipping on. Most of the time people use fog for this. However in CS, drawing fog is slower than just drawing the polygons.
This is the last time I will explain this. Feel free to post all you want about it.
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I feel sorry for Venge having to wright that looong post, it\'s usual for gamers to have programmed game-engine and if not that you should have read every singel post in this forum or search before you post every time..
But Planeshift already use clipping plane right? but at a very long distance so it don\'t look weird, cuz some kind of clipping most be you can\'t see unlimited that would bee chaos when the huge world is finally built.
Hope you guys find some way... if not it should be to much of a problem since the new competition between Nvidia and Ati will raise the standar pretty high before this game is realesed.
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Whoa Venge is really peeved about this distancing thing yeah? Anyway let\'s say Planeshift is finished and actually playable in the next 1 year, and assuming that the world hasn\'t tripled in size then, it would appear that all these things to boost performance artificially would be useless anyway because everybody would be pimping 3GHz systems on GeForce FXes.
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I am only peeved because I have answered this question several times in different threads by largely the same people each time and because people who aren\'t programmers simply are not taking the programmers\' word for it when we say we have thought of it, tried it and rejected it.
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Elimster is too nice...I don\'t trust him! :rolleyes: (j/k)
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Originally posted by Bushie
Elimster is too nice...I don\'t trust him! :rolleyes: (j/k)
Oh, thank you very much! I really apprecite others opinions.
And I think you decided well, not to trust me - just remember that when we meet in the game :evil:
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Umm, does CS force fog off if you don\'t use their method? can\'t you just use OGL\'s fog?
EDIT: Oh, and does PS compile under MinGW in windows? haven\'t tried yet (still getting this system up and running properly)
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Fog does NOT do automatic culling. Fog is used in games *only* to hide the place, where the culling takes place - to avoid the sharp pop-out of culling.
PS *should* compile under MinGW, as Crystal Space also compiles under MinGW (I have compiled it myself). So I think PS can be compiled with it.
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Greetings,
E.
P.S.: Rulzern, it seems you are home at 3D, are you? :) Take a look at this site: http://www.openrt.de
VERY interesting.
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The only time raytracing is cool, is when it\'s realtime.
Check out heaven seven for a cool RTRT (Real-Time Ray-Tracing) demo (http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=5)
If I get really bored tonight, i\'ll try to implement some speedups on the engine (providing i get it to compile) and put up the binaries.
I was thinking of getting the clipping plane closer, and see if there are some obvious memory suckers and/or gfx hogs.
I probably won\'t manage to do a thing :p
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Originally posted by Rulzern
The only time raytracing is cool, is when it\'s realtime.
Check out heaven seven for a cool RTRT (Real-Time Ray-Tracing) demo (http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=5)
Khm, khm...
You tell me - it was done by Hungarians :]
My fellow mates... - not me though, sadly :rolleyes:
And, what is even more: the exe of heaven7 was compressed with UPX (http://upx.sf.net) - one of the two devs of it is also Hungarian
WOW, am I proud... :]
The great thing is, that OpenRT is a *library*! I can\'t wait to see it done, as well as the hardware for it - I think OpenGL will become obsolete then... immediately.
But anyway, future will tell us the truth ;)
Oh, and don\'t forget to tell me ANYTHING that you accomplish - I\'m courious whether you can do, what the devs couldn\'t so far... ;)
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Greetings,
E.
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Hmm, are there project files for MSVC or Dev-C++?
I downloaded what seems to be linux-specific automated-installation source, and my HD died so i haven\'t installed linux yet. :(
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Download MSYS (Minimalist System) from http://www.mingw.org
It contains ported tools for Windows (bash shell, various other utils), like for Cygwin. From that you can run configure. I also think you need to download Crystal Space, and build that too, but I\'m not sure. I could build it though, but I haven\'t tried to compile PS yet. I think I will try it too, but not tonight :)
Dev-C++ files surely don\'t exist :|
MSVC does for CS, but I don\'t know whether there are any for PS...
Oh, other: there is a new development environment for MinGW: Visual-MinGW
It is in a very early stage, but will be good. I contribute to it, maybe I will have time to be a dev soon. Sadly, only one developer does it now :(
It will soon support multiple release options. Sign up to the mailing list! We are very few :( We need constructive and creative people to support us with ideas.
The site is: http://visual-mingw.sf.net
And sorry for the bit off-topicness :rolleyes:
My email is: oroszib@vpg.sulinet.hu
Contact me, if you need something (concerning PS or anything) :)
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Greetings,
E.
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Originally posted by Rulzern
Hmm, are there project files for MSVC or Dev-C++?
I downloaded what seems to be linux-specific automated-installation source, and my HD died so i haven\'t installed linux yet. :(
Yes. There are at least 5 ways to build PS. There is the old linux makefile system ( which is being slowly phased out ). Jam, the current linux build system. MSVC6 and MSVC7 project files. There should also be a way to build under Mac.
I build using Jam and msvc6 without much problem. You may need to tweak the MSVC project files slightly to make sure they have the right path names. These are probably not part of the source package that was released but they are part of the CVS.
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ok, i can forget the idea of using MSVC, I\'ve lost those CD\'s (prolly either burned or crushed them).
I\'ll try MiniSys.
EDIT: going to bed now, i\'ll be back tomorrow
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Ok, awake and ready to give it another shot, how do i compile it with msys and mingw, the script (build.sh) craps out when looking for jam.
EDIT: the only thing that doesn\'t seem to require jam is Crystal Space itself
EDIT2: Darn, I can\'t find jam for mingw/msys, anybody know where to find it?
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Originally posted by Rulzern
EDIT2: Darn, I can\'t find jam for mingw/msys, anybody know where to find it?
See this page (http://crystal.sourceforge.net/drupal/node.php?id=73)
I have no experience using mingw so I cannot really help out much here. I may be able to find somebody that does if you do have any specific problems though.
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Thanks, trying to compile now.
EDIT: why are you moving away from make?
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Originally posted by Rulzern
Thanks, trying to compile now.
EDIT: why are you moving away from make?
Just tell me if you succeed, will you?
About make: if we began to write about advantages, disadvantages, why drop make, etc. then this thread would get 100 posts long at least...
It had a VERY long discussion on the Crystal Space mailing list. So the reason is: just because ;)
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Greetings,
E.
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it seems to work, trying to get python working now, since cel needs that.
PS: if i meet the person who made CS use jam instead of make, i will personally rape him/her
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Well, that went down the drain, just about nothing works, I think i can almost compile CS, with only a few errors, cel gives me loads of errors, and PS doesn\'t compile at all.
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Originally posted by Rulzern
PS: if i meet the person who made CS use jam instead of make, i will personally rape him/her
HAHA! Well, that was one of the key-devs of CS :)
I don\'t think he would enjoy that ;)
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Originally posted by Rulzern
Well, that went down the drain, just about nothing works, I think i can almost compile CS, with only a few errors, cel gives me loads of errors, and PS doesn\'t compile at all.
Hmmm...
All right. I think I will give it a try too.
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Greetings,
E.
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Tell me if you succeed. :)
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Originally posted by Rulzern
Tell me if you succeed. :)
I am ALMOST ready. I have compiled CS minimal, CEL (I had to tweak a bit with jam files) PS is NEARLY ready, but there is a place, where I cannot continue. PS gave a few errors (even wrong, includes!!! - for example: psnet/pserror.h was included, but it is in util/pserror.h) but I could solve them.
Although, the file: src/common/engine/scfreg.inc gives the following error:
src/common/engine/scfreg.inc:28: no matching function for call to `iSCF::
RegisterClassA(const char[30], const char[8])\'
....
And a thousand like this. But the problem is that, that function DOES exist ?(
Although pssetup.exe linked - I could run it :) among with ase_2_spr.exe and texparse.exe, but the main.c (witch includes scfreg.inc) does not compile because of the above error.
Acraig, you are the guru here, do you have an explanation?
Thanks in advance.
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Greetings,
E.
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Originally posted by elminster
Although, the file: src/common/engine/scfreg.inc gives the following error:
src/common/engine/scfreg.inc:28: no matching function for call to `iSCF::
RegisterClassA(const char[30], const char[8])\'
....
And a thousand like this. But the problem is that, that function DOES exist ?(
As I guess I would say that you are running under Windows and one of the standard windows includes has this define somewhere:
#define RegisterClass RegisterClassA
Which is why it is screwing up and trying to replace SCF::RegisterClass with SCF::RegisterClassA. What you can do is try an #undef. I seem to remember this happening sometime before so you can check the Crystal Space mailing lists to see if there is another solution as well.
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Thanks, the #undef fixed it. But now I have this, and it seems this is the last error:
src/server/psserverbehave.cpp:72: no matching function for call to `MsgHandler
::SendMessage(MsgEntry*& )\'
I have #undefed SendMessage, because it replaced it with SendMessageA, but now it still doesn\'t want to work :(
But MsgHandler::SendMessage(MsgEntry *msg) DOES exist ?(
Please help. This is the last error.
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Greetings,
E.
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sorry, been a bit busy the last day, installing linux and whatnot.
I\'ll try now, i wonder if it\'ll compile with gcc 3.3.
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doesn\'t seem to work, gonna try a few more times
anybody had any success compiling it on Debian SID?
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I have a Debian Linux too! :)
I was logged in yesterday, and I have been hacking ALL DAY, trying to get ALSA work, as it couldn\'t detect my SBAWE card - it uses sb16 driver.
The last time I was on before yesterday, was on 2002 October 6!!! - well that was SOME time ago :)
Maybe I\'ll try compiling under Linux...
Just a benchmark: configure script speed under Windows (MSYS) and Linux:
Windows: 3 mins
Linux: 15 seconds
:)
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Greetings,
E.
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Hehe, yeah.
On getting ALSA to work: check if there are any modules for your current kernel (if using a stock kernel), installing is a breeze if there is (apt-get install alsa-modules-kernel, then modprobe what you need)
But there should be support for SB AWE 64 in OSS, though you might not get as fancy features. Do a search for \"sound install script\" or something.
Still no luck on getting it compiled.
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Originally posted by Rulzern
On getting ALSA to work: check if there are any modules for your current kernel (if using a stock kernel), installing is a breeze if there is (apt-get install alsa-modules-kernel, then modprobe what you need)
But there should be support for SB AWE 64 in OSS, though you might not get as fancy features. Do a search for \"sound install script\" or something.
Well, I have a self-compiled kernel :]
And a self compiled ALSA 8)
I used alsaconf 0.9 to setup ALSA. It couldn\'t detect my SBAWE card, as it is plug\'n\'play THEORETICALLY. But it seems, I have some VERY old awe32 card. It uses the ISA bus (yes, my stone-aged motherboard has even 2 of those :) ) Anyway, the card is 34 cm (13.3 inch) (!!!) long. It could barely fit into the house of my PC LOL :D
It is so old, it has a built-in 4 WATT (or 5 ?( ) amplifier (built to the card 8o ). Has a separate output (not good at english): a jack-output (like what is for headphones). It has even 2 MB built-in memory. Yes, it is stone-aged... But I like it :D
And it sounds good too...
So it didn\'t work with the SBAWE module of ALSA, so I recompiled with sb16 too, tried legacy ISA - and sb16 works! I struggled with this a whole day, but now I have sound under Linux - wonderful! :)
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Greetings,
E.
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Yeah, if you\'re having trouble with sound quality, set down the last few values in alsamixer a notch or two, i had very poor sound quality on my onboard before i did that.
BTW: wow, ISA, that\'s like from the sub-P2 days... i have a P90 with a few of those
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Well, my motherboard can be considered a bit strange. It still has 2 ISA buses, and it also has AGP! Quite funny... :)
I like this computer BTW. I have a Celeron running at 488 MHz, 256 MB RAM, 40 GB harddrive, and thanks to the motherboard, it is running relatively fast.
I have a GeForce 2 MX400 with 32 MB. Originally, it\'s clock frequency is set to 181 MHz memory, and 200 MHz core clock. I use the Omega drivers for Windows, and I tuned the card up a bit: 231 MHz for both memory and core clock. Higher clock rate produces artifacts. I once set it up to 250 MHz: it immediately froze my computer. I was lucky, that the card hasn\'t damaged. Anyway, PlaneShift also runs at a playable speed. And according to other games (and other engines), it is VERY fast...
Well, it has again been a long time since I logged in to Debian. I think I will reboot soon :)
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Greetings,
E.
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You should OC the FSB of the CPU, and the RAM for the GPU a bit.
I actually have a AMD Duron 650 MHz with (probably) 128 MB DDR 266MHz, that will be set up as a server soon. Should be quite a bit of bang for my buck (free).
PS: Try telling that to a non-computer-freak :p
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I have a Celeron 433. It is already overclocked. Should I OC some more?
And about the GPU RAM: even higher?
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Greetings,
E.
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Clock until it crashed, then clock a bit down :D
I suppose you clocked via multiplier when clocking that CPU? try clocking with FSB, should give a better overall speed boost.
The GPU\'s memory should be able to be clocked a bit more, yes (i clocked my GF 4 TI 4400 from 550 MHz memory, to 666 MHz (after clocking CPU, i could clock it more by not clocking the CPU as much)). You can see what you get the artifacts from by trying to rise them one by one, if you get artifacts when clocking GPU above what you clocked now, try clocking memory.
And clock in small steps, and remember to stress-test between tests.
And also, join the planeshift IRC channel.
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NO, I clocked with FSB already. I know the frontside bus speed increase results in overall speed increase, but I think I have already clocked too much...
BTW, I use nVidia Omega Drivers (at least for Windows), which come with a very good artifact tester (IMO), and the GPU clock speed is just below the \"artifact level\". (I did small-step increase already). As I get from what you wrote, you clocked by 1/5 your GPU. According to my system, I have already clocked that much.
Anyway, when first clocking, the slider couldn\'t go above 220 MHz :D
But after I restarted, it could...odd...
I don\'t know. Maybe I\'ll try hacking it a bit, I hope my CPU won\'t get on fire... :)
And sorry, I couldn\'t get up to IRC. I don\'t have too much time. Maybe next time.
BTW: I could get OpenGL to work under Linux :D
I downloaded the nvidia drivers, compiled the connector of it (which connects the drivers to the kernel, as the drivers are only available in binary form), and it works! Great. I have graphics (X, OpenGL), sound (ALSA), KDE2, aptitude... What else do I need? I have a pretty shiny Debian - with lots of games :D
And I like my computer very much - I don\'t think I will upgrade for a looong time. This just serves me VERY well. I have more than 60 programs in the Start Menu->Programs in Windows (it takes 5 seconds to get to the bottom of the list :) ), but everything just works fine. No win reinstall in more than a year - which should be regular among Windows users... :/
And it is also fast according to other computers of this category. I can even play UT2003 - with not too much bots of course. And know what: I can even play PlaneShift - because THAT needs some computer power :D
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Greetings,
E.
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just use mIRC and connect to the planeshift server to get on irc.
I think you can still clock your memory a bit more, shouldn\'t pose a problem.
Get wine for yer linux, and do a \"apt-get install vegastrike\".
/me tries yet again to compile planeshift
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I use ChatZilla (the Mozilla IRC client) :D
Sadly I cannot clock the memory any further. It makes artifacts, even after a small change.
BTW, I have an ABIT BH6 mainboard (it is from around 1998 ), and the processor is Celeron 433. It has a fixed 6.5 multiplier, so the ONLY way for overclocking is adjusting FSB. I clocked it a bit (now at 83 MHz), and the CPU now runs at 541 MHz. I had to adjust the voltage too (2.20v). Seems stable. I\'ll test it for a few days, then I\'ll see, if I can keep it.
Some people reported, that they could even clock this type of Celeron 433 up to even 650 MHz! (FSB at 100 MHz) I don\'t think I\'ll try that. I don\'t want to fry my CPU yet... :)
I have wine. And as I recall, I also installed vegastrike some time ago, but I forgot to test it :rolleyes:
Thanks for mentioning.
I think you should give up compiling planeshift. I almost finished under windows, then I had an unsolvable error. I play it instead :)
I\'ll be up on the PlaneShift IRC some time. Maybe we\'ll meet there.
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Greetings,
E.
EDIT: Strange. This discussion turned a BIT away from the subject of the thread :)
I think the devs abandoned this thread (and even this forum) for a looong time by now...
So, to be back at the original subject: far plane clipping was it, as I recall. I think the CS developers are already working on something for it. LOD will come for sure sometime, and also draw distance, we just have to wait.
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server has some serious issues some days
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Originally posted by Bonez
server has some serious issues some days
Ummm, what do you mean?
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Greetings,
E.
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hehe, just read this entire thread, completely oblivious to most of what all this means...
good thing I\'m going to college, maybe in about four years I\'ll understand about a quarter of it all...