PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Prolix on February 19, 2008, 02:04:07 am
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[So here is a question: How are wraiths anymore in context than vampires? The last I heard grendols were the only undead officially in the game. Am I now at liberty to animate ulbernaut corpses into zombies and skeletons? Maybe summon up a wight or two? How about some cacodemons and etc? If all souls are eventually claimed by Dakkru how do wraiths get formed?]
Edited Subject line to indicate the topic split. First chance, please confine the discussion to this purpose as the original thread is still open.
Could Suno's IC post please be moved to the appropriate thread.
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[So here is a question: How are wraiths anymore in context than vampires? The last I heard grendols were the only undead officially in the game. Am I now at liberty to animate ulbernaut corpses into zombies and skeletons? Maybe summon up a wight or two? How about some cacodemons and etc? If all souls are eventually claimed by Dakkru how do wraiths get formed?]
[wrathrats are undead :P]
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[wrathrats are undead :P]
[Are you sure they are not living denizens of the death realm? I suspect like other rats they are born and die unlike undead which have no life.]
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[Kieve explained it to me once, but I can't recall right away. I still have to wait for him to get on and revise my post, since I was only going by bits and pieces of what I -could- remember. Best ask him.]
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Hoo boy... Okay here goes.
Proglix - 'wraith' is a general term, like 'elf' or 'insect' would be - Etherwight is the proper term for the creatures. And while I never claimed them to be specific to Settings, I did make a wholehearted attempt at edging them in without being terribly obtrusive. To compare them with 'classic' horrors such as vamps and werewolves is a bit off...
wrathrats - I have no idea if they're undead or what. Would have to ask a Settings guy about those.
And finally, on the creation of Etherwights:
They are sentient beings composed of 'living' shadow, formed by certain coagulations of 'wild magic' (the same stuff that causes glyphs to spontaneously appear). In this regard, they are similar to Krans, albeit without Talad's deliberate influence. Call them accidents of life, if you must.
I spoke with Suno on IRC about the creation of this particular one. To use the term "DNA" is something of a misnomer - Etherwights have no comparable physiology to most organic life. Think of the liquid Terminator from T-2 and you begin to get the idea. But the gist is, the abilities Xathen granted to Nalkorash were also transferred to his child - while the body may be dead, the transferred powers form an ideal focal point for the necessary gathering of magic. Once that reaches a certain threshold (critical mass), a consciousness is formed, and the thing begins learning to exert control over natural shadow/'shadowmass' and gain a physical form. To draw another movie comparison, think of Sandman from the third Spiderman movie. It's not an easy or simple process, which is a big part of why Etherwights are both exceptionally rare and previously found only in the deepest tunnels in the Labyrinth (where little or nothing else would mess with their evolution and disperse them).
I hope that answers all questions sufficiently, but if not, do ask for clarification.
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Etherwight is a term that appears in two places on the web, here and on a now defunct wiki for some game identified as C2. A wraith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wraith) is traditional undead and a wight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wight) is also undead in modern usage though originally meant creature or person. Either way I do not see how it really fits.
I suppose your malevolent creature formed from wild magic/shadowstuff might squeak in under the settings as being (ironically) within a grey area though it has been said repeatedly that undead is generally out. You should have, perhaps, avoided any folkloric names and made up something new but it is understandable that you want your wraith/wight that is not a wraith/wight though it is nearly indistinguishable to be comprehensible to your readers/participants.
I know it is hard to stay within the settings when so much is publicly undefined but it seems to me that the more you pull in traditional mythology the less likely it will appear officially in non-traditional terms. You are taking options away.
All in all just incredibly Goth-O to me. :)
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I have but two things to say:
-While I never claimed the ideas were entirely original, it seems the description of 'wraith' is much closer to my intent than I'd figured. The 'wight' link is totally unnecessary however, as Etherwight is simply a title I came up with on the spur of the moment. I had been toying with several 'species' name ideas up to that point, and of them, Etherwight sounded most appropriate. (Read: "Don't dissect the word, it's just a title.")
-Etherwights, despite the name, are NOT undead. They are long-lived predators with a definite lifespan and certain mortal necessities (hunger, most notably - gotta eat to live). Please do not confuse them as such. I do, however, understand the misconception since a pitch-black humanoid roaming around draining others' lives and residing in shadow is admittedly a bit reminiscent of it.
All in all just incredibly Goth-O to me. :)
...The smiley doesn't make this statement any less condescending. Nor is it necessary. I welcome constructive criticisms - opinionated commentary, you may leave at the doorstep.
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Well your sig is a little condescending too, don't you think? I didn't notice it before is it just for me? Be that as it may it is irrelevant to the discussion though I am always amused when people get their knickers in a knot over a throwaway gibe.
Now on to the main topic. There is very little entirely new in the creative world so I am not faulting you for independently coming up with something old although you did list an antecedent or inspiration in the Sandman. Both Spider-man and the Sandman have been around since the early 60's though looking at the wiki page does not help me much and I have not seen that movie. I am relatively certain that the only parallel to your creation is the difficulty manipulating his raw material. At least I think that is all you were saying.
It does not really affect me one way or another and it appears you have put a lot of thought into your play. This is a good thing. I must also admit that I did not read all of the logs/stories. However well thought and played out the affair was, the one fatal flaw as far as I was concerned was the introduction of a new player entity that is not one of the allowable races. In that regards it does not matter if it was a wight, a wraith, a zombie, skeleton, vampire, gnome, gremlin or goonie. If that is to become prevalent practice I think I will just morph myself into Herbie the Love Bug. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbie_the_love_bug)
P.S. (parting shot) Opinionated commentary <mine> countered by opinionated commentary<yours> ... how delicious. 8)
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Honestly, i was there for much of this RP and all of Kieve's creatures/characters are all well thought out with extensive background stories. It was a lot of fun for all those involved and it got many people involved in the RP....and I have seen many more people do RPs that are even MORE out there and retarded then this, so I really see no basis for this attack except personal malevolence.
One should probably know Kieve and his RPs before feeing entitled to make such comments, hmm? ;)
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[Hey, I guess I don't have many explanations to add to my post after all; I was pretty close to getting things right. :P
But yeah, I've actually seen the "inside scoop" to Xathen and wraiths in general, and I'd say they're pretty tight to settings; the wraith concept itself the only loosely tied area.]
[By the way, the thread went completely OOC - add brackets people. :P ]
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[As I said, this means little to me and I am glad you had fun. I probably would not have posted anything in this thread if Suno had not posted that other now deleted thread bemoaning bad roleplay. I am not a newcomer around here and had the same thoughts when this thread first appeared but chose to let people do what they want. While you may see my contributions to this thread as a personal attack I am not saying anything that is essentially untrue although I do enjoy beating around the bush so it took a while to get down to the brass tacks. I thought my objections were delivered mildly and without undue approbation but if people are convinced they are right they do not appreciate being told otherwise. That is the effect of being opinionated.
There is a self appointed cadre around here -- like there is most places -- that considers themselves the guardians of what is proper who feel it is necessary to instruct the lesser lights as to their deficiencies at the best of times and brutally mock them at others. I am not speaking of anyone specific right now, only in general and individuals vary in the strength and nature of their instructions. If you feel I am going on and on about nothing of significance well then that is my nature and you should understand that from my name.
To sum up my position: creating player entities beyond what is available in character creation is better left to the GM team in an official capacity in order to introduce new official content to the game such as the shields event where they introduced the little rock creatures. Other than that you should limit your roleplay to that which is currently available and to whatever else that, while unimplemented, has been officially endorsed. If you are unsure whether something fits, run it past settings. Was this event filtered through the devs? Is there among your participants the unprivileged characters of some of the dev team? Can we expect someday to have an etherwight mob to fight?
I am quite happy to continue on with this discussion but you do not need to humor me by doing so, you can always let it go and get down to finishing your story.]
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[There's a difference between bad roleplay and something that goes against settings. Even if wraiths aren't supposed to exist, Kieve's done an excellent job in setting the picture, and plays his characters how they would act as if he was really them. Besides, GMs have certainly gone against settings in the past, and godmod. For example, the recent event with a GM turning everyone into clackers with some sort of magic, and people having to find the wand and change them back (I'm just using that as an example from word of mouth - I wasn't actually there). If that had been a player event, people would be flaming the player up and down about something like that being against settings, and being too powerful - like you're doing to the wraith setting. If Kieve was a GM, you certainly wouldn't have -anything- to complain about.]
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Ok, I got nothing against this RP. Personally, I prefer players to avoid RPing uber creatures but that's just me. But since GMs are, again, being used as a negative example, let me say something here...
[(...)Besides, GMs have certainly gone against settings in the past, and godmod. For example, the recent event with a GM turning everyone into clackers with some sort of magic, and people having to find the wand and change them back (I'm just using that as an example from word of mouth - I wasn't actually there). If that had been a player event, people would be flaming the player up and down about something like that being against settings, and being too powerful - like you're doing to the wraith setting.]
GM events do not go against settings. They are all reviewed by Talad so they never include things that do not have a place in Yliakum. In that particular event, nobody told players to pretend they were turned into clackers. They were transformed. GM characters can do those things. Players can't. The reason why GM characters can do that is so we use all available mechanics and settings to enhance the players' experience and not so we can have uber characters we can play with every day.
That said:
- If this were a GM event, it would have gone through Talad before ever reaching any player.
- If this were a GM event, the event character would indeed be more powerful than any player character (and not just claim to be and expect the rest to agree with that).
- If this were a GM event, you would probably be criticizing it for being against settings.
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[So you're able to be stronger because you're approved by Talad? Don't take this the wrong way, but the whole thing sounds like a cheap way to get people to join the GM team - by enabling them to have RPs that players are shunned from having.]
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[So you're able to be stronger because you're approved by Talad? Don't take this the wrong way, but the whole thing sounds like a cheap way to get people to join the GM team - by enabling them to have RPs that players are shunned from having.]
[GM commands allow it and they are used responsibly, not to our benefit as players. We can create powerful characters if we need to but only to fulfill a specific role in an event. We do not use these characters to "play the game" or any GM command for personal gain for that matter. Players can develop any plot they want but they will be severely limited if they want to do things GMs can do simply because they do not have GM powers.]
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[Can't really say these 'uber characters' are actually playing the game, either. We expect, eventually, that Xathen and my alt will die some time down the road. It's an extended player RP event, and we're using them for the event; the basis.]
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[like I said, you are limited by the lack of GM commands and your characters can be only as powerful as other players find agreeable. And you can always contact someone in settings to make sure you're not stepping out of boundaries with your plot as well. That should put an end to that unnecessary debate.]
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[ :innocent: At least we know whose fault it is when we see newbies claim to have 'powerz', to claim they are DEMONS FROMZ HELL!! or VAMPIRE HUNTER LORDS!!!! :sorcerer: It's all in giving a good example ;). Even without 'unrealistic' powers a nice plot can be made, though it requires more creativity.
I really like the story btw ;) But that's not the point :lol: :flowers:]
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[Silly willies. :P
Can someone pliz delete all these OOC-ish posts sometime in the future? It really clutters up the thread.]
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[Indeed, but they make good points. Perhaps a mod can move them to an OOC thread or something.]
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[*laughs hysterically* Wraiths as comic relief? Now that one I wouldn't have seen coming...
Sorry if you didn't mean it to be so funny Suno - the little wraith's overeagerness is quite comical.]
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[There's a difference between bad roleplay and something that goes against settings. Even if wraiths aren't supposed to exist, Kieve's done an excellent job in setting the picture, and plays his characters how they would act as if he was really them. Besides, GMs have certainly gone against settings in the past, and godmod. For example, the recent event with a GM turning everyone into clackers with some sort of magic, and people having to find the wand and change them back (I'm just using that as an example from word of mouth - I wasn't actually there). If that had been a player event, people would be flaming the player up and down about something like that being against settings, and being too powerful - like you're doing to the wraith setting. If Kieve was a GM, you certainly wouldn't have -anything- to complain about.]
I disagree with the first statement because the settings are the rules for the roles that you may play, therefor stepping outside the settings is bad roleplay. For example, if you were to be given this setup you have brought only one knife to a confrontation with a rival gang at the improv olympics (role play competition) and you 'pull out a gun and start shooting your rivals' you are going to lose the match because you went against the setup. Likewise if you are stipulated to be a blind man and you miraculously regain your sight the same thing is likely to happen.
I do wish you would stop accusing me of flaming as my posts have been quite polite and not at all heated.
One last thing, if you bothered to filter your ideas through the GM team you might find one who would go along with it and be able to convince the rest of the team to allow it. If that cannot be done then perhaps your ideas need to be rethought to fit in and you may even get positive feedback as to what changes would allow it.
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Actually, these ideas would go through Settings, not the GMs. The GMs use Settings material to create their events.
GMs and Settings devs only step in if the RP deviates fairly far from the official settings, and people complain. Only one of two is happening here.
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Prolix - I do appreciate your criticisms, as they are well thought-out and certainly polite enough.
(I do not see any 'flames' here myself)
As for your example, my response would be to take out a gang-member and steal his gun, since nowhere is it specified that he does not have one. ;) That is what I am doing - expanding on lore with my own ideas, using what information is available to me. And while I am not about to toot my own horn, I will say that with the exception of the Etherwights' existence itself, I have stayed well within Settings bounds. Its creation, habits, and so-forth are all very explicable in-game according to what knowledge we've been given thus far - which is a fair sight more than most of the so-called 'outlandish' chars can claim (at least that I've seen). Regarding your last comment, I did not run this by a GM because I saw no particular need to - doing so makes it a GM event in my eyes, not mine. So to sum up, just because the wraith itself is pushing Settings (and I never claimed it didn't - quite the contrary), the use and application of such is certainly within bounds.
On the note of Xathen himself and claims of 'uberness' - please read through the RP threads a bit. He has unique abilities, true, but he is FAR from uber, and I have never played him as such (possibly why there hasn't been a larger faction of people screaming for my hide).
With regard to Etherwight purpose and origin, they drain life energy (ie, the soul), and so victims normally die a true death, with only ash remaining. This is why they are regarded as unholy by Dakkru followers and the Goddess herself - their method of feeding denies the Dark Crystal its fuel. And yet, despite this, I have not yet used him to drain ANY player to the point of permanent death, and have only seriously considered it once. In fact, if you wish to tear my wraith to pieces, I suppose it's best if you are given the full readout on him. Been meaning to make it public knowledge through RP, but since this discussion has grown a bit more than I expected it to...
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Now bear in mind, this was written mainly with an eye towards in-game RP combat. Having said that, you may ask almost anyone I've used Xathen against - while challenging, he has his own flaws and faults, which were recently revealed to an exacting degree in the Wraithbane RP, and certainly far from 'uber'.
Xathen Ut'Phare - Technical Readout
Background: An entity composed of living shadows. It survives by draining energies both magical and physical to sustain its own. Born of wild magic in the Stone Labyrinths, it was further shaped and guided by the will of Black Flame and its followers, up to and including its present form.
At the current time, it has full control over all 'natural' shadows within its sight and can shape them into physical instruments (spikes, sludge, etc) at will. Alternately, it can use these to drain a target of life force and magic without physical contact, but the victim must be at least partially surrounded by shadowmass.
Abilities:
Shadowmass
- Physical strikes - the wraith may form any natural shadow into a physical weapon, which remains rooted to its point of origin. These strikes are sudden and come without warning, but obey most physical laws. They can be blocked or deflected by most any magical or physical means and dissipate after the turn in which they are used.
- Shadowsmoke - a method of draining a victim remotely, the wraith's black fog rises from a shadow. It can begin draining instantly, but the effect is very weak, and only in more viscous stages does the siphoning have any real effect. Typically, it takes multiple turns to engulf and thicken shadowsmoke enough for proper draining.
- Sludge and Solid mass - 'thickened' shadowsmoke may take one of two additional forms after its emergence. The first and initial stage is a viscous sludge, the consistancy of which is somewhere between mud and poured concrete. It clings to any surface and drains energies at a more efficient rate. The second stage, should the wraith will it, is to further solidify it into rock-hard mass. This is the most effective form of energy-drain, and once solidified it may then act as a 'natural' shadow for the launching of physical attacks. It must first phase through the viscious form however, and is typically used to lock a victim in place.
Wraith
- Energy Drain - the wraith's primary weapon is the natural ability to siphon and consume nearly any variety of magical or physical energy. Offensive magics are automatically absorbed, if they are of a compatible type (see Weaknesses), while physical energies and especially life forces must be deliberately drained. The latter is excruciatingly painful for the victim.
- Claws - in its natural form, the wraith's hands end in three-fingered claws (two upper, and an opposed thumb). These are razor-sharp at the tip and are capable of piercing solid plate metal.
- Strength - the wraith's physical strength is directly based upon the energy it consumes. Since exiting the labyrinth, the Azure Sun has filled it with a surplus of energy, granting the wraith an immense strength. Additionally, prey has been more plentiful, and the Crystal's light adds a surplus of energy to the wraith's victims.
- Sorrow and Scorn - the twin greatswords Xathen carries at his back. These bear runic markings of the Black Flame and are the only weapons in Xathen's arsenal capable of deflecting damage from his primary weaknesses. In his hands, they weigh almost nothing, as they are an extension of himself - should he drop them, their actual weight is roughly half a ton each.
- Shadowmerge - a wraith may spread its life essence into natural shadow, effectively becoming part of the darkness. It then becomes impossible to pinpoint the wraith's location, as it is literally 'everywhere' at once. However, the wraith has very limited control over any other shadow aspect, and must reassume a physical form to interact with the world.
Weaknesses
Blue Way & Magic
- Blue Way Glyphs - due to the purifying properties of Blue Way magic, any spells generated from a glyph classified under the Blue Way will do significant damage to the wraith, who is incapable of absorbing such magic.
- Mental Attacks - mind-based magics affect the wraith (who is a sentient creature). Illusions are only partially effective, as no caster can replicate the 'energy sense' a wraith uses for hunting, and a wraith will readily separate visual illusions from the real for this reason. Mental or psyonic assaults will harm the wraith, and in extreme cases can completely disperse its physical form, causing it to revert to a shadowmerged state.
- Dark Way - though a wraith can absorb Dark Way magics, the 'foul taste' of such energies cause discomfort, and in extreme cases nausea, in the absorbing wraith. Excessive use may cause a temporary 'taint' in the being, and even permanent damage.
(all other nonphysical energies are 'edible' to a greater or lesser degree, and inflict no harm.)
Physical & Metaphysical
- Platinum Metal - all forms of platinum metal are anathemic to a wraith. Weapons composed of such will deal significant damage to a wraith's physical form, and cannot be directly affected by shadowmass. Non-weapon items, such as talismans, jewelry, or implements will cause harm upon contact with a wraith's shadowflesh, and barriers composed of platinum metal cannot be crossed due to the wraith's constant contact with the ground.
- Sapphire Crystals - weapons set with sapphire will do physical damage to a wraith. Other uses include placing the Blue Way-focusing crystals in shadowed locations to prevent a wraith's passage, and focusing light through a sapphire will also harm a wraith. Additionally, the shadows from sapphire-focused lights cannot be controlled by the wraith, nor can it pass through them in shadowmerged form.
- Enchantments - any items or weapons enchanted with Blue Way magic will harm a wraith's physical form on contact. The severity of the damage is reliant on the power of the enchantment and the composition of the item in question.
- Countering - when the wraith strikes as per an attack, it wills the portion of its attacking being to a solid state. Thus, when striking with claws or teeth, those parts become vulnerable to all physical laws and weapons ordinarily not capable of harming the wraith may be used to deflect or counter the assault.
(all other physical influences may be assumed to have no effect.)
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Very nicely written. It appears you have spent a good deal of time playing traditional table top role playing games in other's and running your own.
Since my points have been acknowledged further belaboring them would seem to enter the realm of whining. Please be certain that if what I was doing was complaining I would be calling for some kind of (unnecessary) official response and not debating the merits of the play.
My own role play is extremely limited and more in the manner of riffing a theme than in a painstakingly laid out plot. It can be seen in two posts in the Hydlaa message board has not been seen, for the most part, in the game. I feel there is a lot of possibility in a citizens advocacy group and little chance for it to stray from the settings. Even if it never rises above the status of gadfly there is lots to grouse about.
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I'll quote myself on this topic.
This is a rather dangerous creature you have, you're claiming to be a part of settings material, having a creature that doesn't really exist in-game but just claim to have. I know it's fun to be powerful and mythical but some other players might take offense in that .. or even worse, they'll take it as an example and start thinking up more incredible background stories until we're all gods zapping others with lightning bolts :P
Disclaimer:
Above points are all meant to help and shouldn't be taken offensively. If you don't care about my opinion, that is fine, I won't lose any sleep over it. :P
I won't form any opinions on this roleplay because I haven't involved myself in it so I don't know how it's conducted. While these things are fine when they're made with the intent of entertaining others, I still prefer to stay away from these 'extravagant' RPs. I will say that the information posted above by Kieve should, in my opinion, always be given out in advance to anyone involving themselves in the roleplay.
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Zan - you probably should, and I encourage it. ;) I think you'd find it a bit less mythical and extravagant with some first-hand knowledge.
Prolix - actually I've spent very little time with tabletop RPG's. My experience stems from the study of D&D monster manuals (A-D&D '98 manual, and edition 3/3.5 Manuals 1 and 3). I have sat in on a few games as an observer, and played... once, I think. Mebbe twice...
On the topic itself, the character Xathen actually stems from a very old RP back when I played Furcadia. Since the 'settings' there are more loosely defined and for the most part ignored, there were a great deal of really... odd characters. At any rate, his introduction (and the alterations I made to help him fit in), came about because I got to thinking that with regard to RP, the PS community has relatively few villains to worry about - Duraza et 'Alts' being the only ones that readily come to mind. Given that, and how interesting it was to try working him smoothly into the much more exacting lore of PlaneShift, I figured it was worth a shot.
:) Overall, I think I'd call this success. I do welcome anyone with constructive criticisms or ideas to speak up though.
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In my own opinion, Xathen has done a great job staying in settings. I've seen, and been in one of his Roleplays- no godmoding, you have plenty of oportunities to fight back...or run. Which ever you're comfortable with.
P.S. Don't try to hug a wraith... Just, doesn't work.
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Necrothreadage, much? :lol:
But seeing as how Xathen's returned to active duty in PS, at least around Hydlaa, it's fair to give folks (at least the ones who read this) a decent heads-up on the whole bit.
And yeah, Saphyx is right - don't hug a wraith. Although it's still better than trying to hug XilliX... ;)
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it's still better than trying to hug XilliX... ;)
Except on designated hug holidays!
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Hug...holidays? When are they?! :D
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Etherwight Manual (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=33534.0)
For any future questions and concerns on these beasties and especially Xathen, it's wise and useful to refer to this first. :)
And... nobody knows when the holidays are. It just sorta happens randomly.