PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Garile on March 01, 2008, 07:52:53 pm
-
In another thread I read a post about someone getting annoyed by enkidukai purring. They aren't cats after all so why do they always purr?
Now I can imagine that if you notice something like that and you really feel it is wrong that it can annoy you. But it also raises the question why it is wrong to purr when you play an enki.
I mean sure I can't garuntee they do, but can you garuntee that they dont? After all enkies have catheads and cattails and even the enki legs are cat inspired so is it wrong to expect there behavior to have some catlike tendencies aswell?
now the description on them is rather vague on this. The only thing pointing that they may behave different from cats is the fact that they live in packs and that is more wolflike behavior. But seeing we don't know how much this is influenced by civilization I wonder how strong an arguement that is.
thinking it over I felt I should atleast ask for the otherside seeing I am going towards the side that purring is a nice addition to act less human and personally i haven't seen anything to really dispute that they are not catlike while their whole appearance screams cat in my eyes.
If you feel it is wrong to purr please don't just use the argument that we don't know if they pur or not seeing I think we all know that,, but I don't really feel that is a good reason to call it wrong roleplaying.
-
Wolflike behaviour? What do lions do then?
-
I'd like them to be able to purr. After all, they _are_ catlike. And purring doesn't have to mean they are uncivilised or half animals or anything. Perhaps it's just as natural for them as for a human to smile?
-
lol Pur maybe it isn't exactly like a cat but hey why not? If a bird can Bark like a dog why can't enkidukai Pur?
-
Lions have prides
Differance is that it is normally only one male with several females and cubs. Not to mention they are about the only big cats that even do that. ;)
So that would seem to show that mentally Enkidukai are somewhat different inclined then our cats seeing they are pretty loner oriented instead of group animals, but it could be they come from lionlike prides and "civilization" made them see the benefits of not chasing away the male cubs as they once did. It isn't a very strong argument as I already said but it is one often used ;)
-
Enkidukai are catlike, yes, but people are taking that a little too far. They also, as far as I can see by their art, don't have paws, but people like to think they do because they're catlike. I don't remember Enkidukai NPC's purring when I ask them for a quest, so I don't think they do.
-
They also, as far as I can see by their art, don't have paws, but people like to think they do because they're catlike.
Their feet are paws.
The only thing pointing that they may behave different from cats is the fact that they live in packs and that is more wolflike behavior. But seeing we don't know how much this is influenced by civilization I wonder how strong an arguement that is.
In the wild, cats do form into packs. Stray cats often live near or with each other.
I would assume that Enkidukai would purr, from a biological view, since they have many physical similarities with cats. If they have heads like cats, they are probably able to purr. Just makes sense.
-
@Suno
hmm have to agree with you on the paws part. Only the feet would be paws as the hands don't have any padding and clear fingers are visible so they are definately hands.
However that you didn't encounter it in quests yet could simply mean that A. the devs aren't sure themselves yet or B. They only purr in normally private situations like when cuddling with a loved one or lazying around feeling very content. I don't think you really encounter situations like that in quests and if they do purr I don't realy see them using it simply as a thanks.
@Raa
Well it isn't really my argument and not sure about the stray cats and all, but just the whole Alpha male and such is definately with a wolfpack in mind I think or perhaps an apegroup. I personally felt it was a good argument to show that enkidukai mentally maybe aren't as catlike as they look.
-
I don't remember Enkidukai NPC's purring when I ask them for a quest, so I don't think they do.
Why should they if you just ask them for a quest ?
Have you tried giving them presents, like fish ? Or giving them a nice back massage ?
That would be a reason for a heartily purr ;-)
-
Well most of the Enkidukai-cat enthusiasts purr just about whenever they feel like it. Until I see an NPC purring, I'm not buying it.
-
For what it's worth, the common belief that cats only purr when content is actually inaccurate - they're known to purr when they've been injured or they're sick, for example, because the vibration of the purr has some pretty serious health benefits.
So if Enkidukai do indeed purr, I'd guess they would use it in more situations than just contentment, and people in Yliakum wouldn't automatically think "Happy Enkidukai!" when they hear a purr - they might be as likely to think "Does he have a cold? Maaaaybe I should sit over here instead."
-
Why are we so bent on making Enkidukai into cats? They're catlike, fine, but does it need to get more complicated than that? I don't want to make an Enkidukai and be weird because I never purr.
-
They also, as far as I can see by their art, don't have paws, but people like to think they do because they're catlike.
Their arms most certainly end in hands, but enkidukai refer to their hands as paws. Either term is fine.
-
I don't remember Enkidukai NPC's purring when I ask them for a quest, so I don't think they do.
You are assuming that a form of humanoid can't purr, but they can. The predisposition of a creature like a Menki or Fenki may well have them purring. I know at least a few that will purr on command if fed a few fishies. Since begging for a quest is 'a demand' or imposition then i hardly expect an Enkidukai to begin purring at that point.
Are we to start dictating what other races may or may not do based on what isn't part of the settings?
I've seen enough Enkis purring to be convinced that they in fact do purr.
Thats good enough for me. I'ld further suggest that its a common trait.
Its quite far fetched to suggest that they don't when you consider there are psuedo-demons running around that supposedly blow dark smoke out their nostrils and ears + consume souls, all of which is based on forum posts and not submitted by the settings team.
-
Bent on making them cats? No but I'm definately not bent on making them human either. Seeing they look like cats exploring the purr is one of the first places to look if you don't want them to act like humans with fur.
-
Hey if they are going to purr why not have hairballs too, will they go all snaky if you feed them catnip? Why are there still rats in Ojaveda are the enkies playing with their food?
As the person who made the comment that inspired this thread, it was just a throw away taunt meant to indicate there is plenty of incongruous role plays going on apparently within the settings and other things that people might object to are not that big a deal. Purring is not that big a deal to me.
I think I'll start a new dwarf character and insist I am not a dwarf but rather an Xacha midget. I think it will be great fun to fly into a rage whenever someone calls me a dwarf.
-
i thought they were humanoids....so why can't they have tendencies to their other DNA? I mean there's nothing wrong with some purring and some not. Its like how some immigrants wish to keep their native tongue and culture, but others don't want to. Similar concept...
-
Because they don't actually have cat DNA, they just resemble cats. Cats/kittens don't really exist according to the higher-ups.
-
blah...couldn't you just say that purring is part of their native tongue? i mean technically, PS doesn't have cats, so there's nothing to compare the purring to pets. that's just us bringing in our prejudices to the game. :P
-
Because they don't actually have cat DNA, they just resemble cats. Cats/kittens don't really exist according to the higher-ups.
They don't have "human" DNA either.
Doesn't Enkien (the Enkidukai language) consist of purrs? That's good evidence there.
-
Hey if they are going to purr why not have hairballs too?
That's simple: Because Enkidukai are intelligent and able to skin and cook their food before eating it. And I doubt that they're licking their fur, since they have proper hands and can use a sponge for washing ;)
-
Well, isn't the Enkien R pronounced using a purring sound anyhow?
-
yes, I think it is.
-
http://pswiki.xordan.com/index.php/Enkidukai_Language/Pronunciation [ps wiki, my source]
'RR' is the equivalent of a cat's purr. Since this is unpronounceable by a human, a combination of a schwa sound as in the English 'about' and an alveolar trill is like the Spanish 'perro' - or if you can, try doing it with an Uvular trill, as in the French pronunciation of 'Paris'.
So when ever they say Grrensholo or some thing else with a double R the enkidukai purr ;)
EDIT: I mean like gosh, when you play an enkidukai haven't you once thought of even looking at the language? :P
:lol: :flowers:
Double edit: Bringing DNA into the discussion xD, show me the Enkidukai DNA strings they lack to purr in comparison to the CAt DNA strings that make them purr :P
-
I don't think it's an issue of whether or not Enkidukai can purr. It's about if they should or not. I also don't call rolling your r's purring, that's an accent. Purring is an emotional expression for cats.
Personally I get that very catlike behavior of Enki roleplay can be over the top. If you're constantly purring, pouncing other people or going completely animalistic when Catnip or fish is brought into the picture .. then you're not doing the Enkidukai race much good since you're acting more like a silly animal than an intelligent race.
I think it's perfectly fine to for enkidukai to purr but it strikes me as a sign of complete relaxation, pleasure and safety ... not something you'd do in a crowded tavern or anywhere else in public.
As for the catnip-like behavior .. now that I do have issues with. Enkidukai are not instinct driven animals that go berserk when they smell or see catnip. They're an intelligent race with full control over their behavior and emotions. Even when there is something they like nearby. The only exception I can see here are children or mature enkis with mental retardation.
-
I also don't call rolling your r's purring, that's an accent. Purring is an emotional expression for cats.
For 'cats' it's emotional, for Enkidukai it's language-ional :P
again:
'RR' is the equivalent of a cat's purr. Since this is unpronounceable by a human, a combination of a schwa sound as in the English 'about' and an alveolar trill is like the Spanish 'perro' - or if you can, try doing it with an Uvular trill, as in the French pronunciation of 'Paris'.
So a 'human' or non-enkidukai would have to mimick the RR with a rolling rrrrr, but the Enkidukai's purr ;)
/me purrs
This would be very strange for an enkidukai to do as she/he is only saying rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr all the time, but hey some people have other ticks, like an annoying tapping leg :P
:lol: :flowers:
-
I still think they should be judged as separate things.
Using language accents like "How arre you today?"
and
/me purrs softly while playing with his tail.
They are two entirely different things in my eyes. Sure you can both call them purring but you shouldn't juggle them together under the same subject like people are doing in this thread. The accent purr is just like the dwarven accent of some dwarven roleplayers. Some people like it, some don't. Some characters have it, some don't. It's no big deal.
The latter purring is a behavior that comes from animals. It's not in your language or words, it's showing a state of being. While I think that Enkidukai can do this, they are also an intelligent enough race to control it. If they start purring uncontrolably with every mildly pleasant experience they get ... I won't see them as anything more intelligent than the simpleminded fool that grins at everyone and everything all day long. Or the well-known housecat.
My bottom line is, roleplay to your heart's desire but keep it inside the settings and also don't go overboard. Extremes are never good positions to take.
-
First of all, the RR isn't just an accent (it may of course) but it's for their language (http://pswiki.xordan.com/index.php/Enkidukai_Language/Vocabulary) <-- clickie which has many words with 'RR' in it, the famous Grrensholo ect. ;)
Enkidukai would do it as G-'purr'-ensholo and non-enkidukai would make it sound like G-'rolling r'-ensholo
Second, if you look at purring as something you do to act out an emotion, like happiness. Then it would most likely be a discussion for the settings team first, because 'purring' would have a certain cultural standard on when to and when not to purr. I don't support players letting their enkidukai purr everywhere they go ;)
If Purring is somewhat related to emotions I think an Enkidukai purr would be translated to non-enkidukais an "Aaaah" or "Ooooh", like when a dwarf drinks a beer after a hard day in the mines ;) Then it wouldn't be that weird to see an Enkidukai just purring and it's more controlled then animal behavior. But I'm not settings ;)
(It could also just be that a purring Enkidukai just brags about something she/he can and others don't :D)
I agree with purring going overboard, but everything going overboard is bad ;)
That's why I think NPC's aren't purring when they give you a quest :P Purring in front of a stranger...
:lol: :flowers:
-
As far as I know the wiki language projects are mostly player driven and do not constitute official settings material. This may be wrong but has the settings team given them their stamp of official inclusion? I could very well go in and start writing up the Kran language, fill it full of sibilants and rasping noises, maybe a few african tongue clicks and claim it is official because it exists. Just because some players who like to purr have filled the language with purring noises does not mean enkidukai really do purr.
It would be nice if some member (Xillix?, Jeraphon?) of the settings team would appear and give an indication of what their thoughts are. It may be they are divided as well which is why they have not stepped in but it is more likely that they endorse purring or at least do not object to it. I am certain they are busy and hope they do not consider this some kind of summons ;)
-
*looks for her summon Dev glyph but somehow can't find it* ;)
hmm I know of the enki language but not quite sure if it is an offically endorsed one or not. Personally I am playing an enki and I do have her purr now and then, but definately not as a greeting or when given a fish or something. I think I can count the people who have heard her purr on one hand.
I am just wondering if it is correct use of the settings or not. know many are for it, but there are also people who don't like it and useally better to simply ask then have one group annoyed at the other group if perhaps this isn't nececary.
-
As far as I know the wiki language projects are mostly player driven and do not constitute official settings material. This may be wrong but has the settings team given them their stamp of official inclusion?
The enkien language as listed in that pswiki link is mostly player-created and to be considered non-canonical. You will only find a small number of words spoken by enkidukai NPCs in a non-common language (most notably, tabei.) Settings prefers that all NPCs speak Yliakum common in order to avoid exclusion, and also because it's...you know...COMMON. Will that stop PCs from using their created language? I doubt it.
However, saying that the enkien language consists of purrs is evidence that enkidukais purr is fallacious, because the enkien language isn't supported by settings. By that logic, someone could slip words into that language that consist of other bodily noises or English swear words, and use that as an excuse to roleplay as such. (Speaking of which, if you look at that list, do you really think settings would approve of the fact that the enkien word for "seven" is the same as the French slang for one's behind? No, clearly not.)
So, do they purr? I don't really remember. Why not go through every quest that involves an enkidukai and check? I know someone will, because people who roleplay enkidukais spade voraciously about every little aspect of enkidukai culture.
Good luck! :detective:
-
Bah, I bet you do know Jeraphon but just want us to do your quests. :P
-
Anyway that seems to lead us into a dead end (cul de sac -- literally bottom of bag.) Thanks Jer.
-
Bleh, the pswiki should be removed then, because its very misleading.
-
Bleh, the pswiki should be removed then, because its very misleading.
then update it, it is a WIKI
-
I don't think the wiki should be ammended (much less taken down) due to non-canonical content on the subject of language.
This is a roleplaying game, and as such you have to expect some elements of character culture to develop from player interaction. Not everything has to be spelled out 'to the T' by the game designers when it comes to the subject of character society... the social element of the game will evolve just as any other society's culture evolves over time. e.g. 20 years ago no one would have known what you were talking about if you told them "i'm going to put some mp3s on my ipod", but now it's commonplace... no government passed laws on the creation of these words, they evolved naturally to reflect changes in culture and commerce.
It is thus expected that the user-created languages on the wiki reflect "para-language", they may not be official words but they can be understood by subcultures within the game (namely those that have learnt those languages).
Thus it stands to reason that some Enkies do indeed purr. But as the Enkies are an intelligent race, some may choose not to purr, some may find purring socially unacceptable (like humans with burping), some may purr only in certain circumstances, others may purr uncontrollably.
The importance is that if you want your Enkie to purr, then purr away.
-
I think it is silly for 'purring' to be used commonly nowadays in a 'cat' language for two reasons.
A: Cats do not purr when they vocalize (AKA, speak). I have been around cats all my life, so am confident is saying they are two separate things that would be very hard to fit together.
B: No character in the game, Player or NPC, speaks fluently in their race language (with perhaps the exception of one). A few words may be known, but they are lost for the most part. A lot like Latin in the general population. Simply put, it is OOS (out of Settings ;) ) for anyone to claim they have full working knowledge of the old tongues.
As for purring outside of talking. I don't really care one way or the other. More than one way to skin a cat, they say.
-
B: No character in the game, Player or NPC, speaks fluently in their race language (with perhaps the exception of one). A few words may be known, but they are lost for the most part. A lot like Latin in the general population. Simply put, it is OOS (out of Settings ;) ) for anyone to claim they have full working knowledge of the old tongues.
Is this official? Because there's at least one quest I can think of off the top of my head that contradicts it - a certain leathermaker with a flustered husband is stated as speaking/writing Dermorian as her native language. And the use of "native language" (the quest's wording, not mine) pretty much rules out her knowing it just because she's scholarly. And I can think of a couple other NPCs who clearly are at least fluentish in their race languages.
-
Is this official?
Under the moon works as a prospect for the settings department, but does not speak for the settings department in an official capacity.
-
if there's no cats in Yliakum, the description of 'Empathy' needs editing
-
A lot of skill descriptions need editing. :P
-
Some research will lead you to the conclusion that most felines either purr or are able to make purr-like sounds. In some references it says all can. While this is certainly irrelevant for the settings team, which, very wisely, prefer imagination and ease over logic-wise consistence, I still think it points out that enkies could purr, or do something similar, if they'd like. It would probably sound very different from a cat's purr though.
Purring shouldn't enter any language, just like laughter doesn't enter human language. That's just plain silly. However if an enkidukai would feel specifically happy about something, letting out a purr should be something normal. Like Jaelin said, lots of conditions could make purring rare, or common.
I'm not very keen on the concept that I'd have to do some quests to find more about this race either. I'd rather be plainly answered something. Mainly because I find quests boring and very weak on the character building part (expect that they help you get some hard earned knowledge.) Read the disclaimer bellow please.
-
I'm bored waiting for my client to update and I'll give my $0.02 on the matter.
Yes.
ok, I'll elaborate. They are obviously based on cats, and given the fact their features can move (i.e. their ears and tails and such) it is obvious they have a muscle-structure like a feline, they also must have a simialr circulatory and nervous structure. Logic says that they shoudl purr.
I also agree that they've evolved beyond it, but I do think they woudl be capabe of hackign up hairballs... cant immagine a circumstance where tehy'd get that much hair injested but...
Somone mentioned fish and catnip, Fish simply are a greatly enjoyed dish, much like humans tend to overall really enjoy icecream or chcolate or pizza. Catnip is a mild drug similar to tabacco or possibly more on the level of marajuana (if you watch a cat IRL given catnip tehy always melow out after tehy go balistic a minute or two, and some cats dont even go balistic, just get mellow (I have had 2/6 cats like this)).
Most of the time things get over-exadgerated either by the RPers or by the people who are reporting the activity to the forum.
Personally I like to see occasional use of cat bodylanguage or purs, hisses, etc denoting mood. I agree is somone is running around doing it absolutely randomly and basically beign a bother then they shoudl be told to calm it down, but otherwise I see no real problem with it... and if it bothers you, react to it, tell them they're bothering you or even challenge them to a duel. Tehy may stop or if tehy fight you you can send them to the death realm for a while and not be bugged anymore! (I dont see why people must take this to a GM when it can be resolved quite easily in RP...)
Just my $0.02, spend it wisely!
-
If only people were as interested in other races' cultures as this.
A three-page discussion on purring?
SERIOUSLY?
How about something about ynnwns or dermorians? Or lemurs? Or, heck, ylians? It's a well-known fact that there's more stuff about enkidukai culture than all the other races combined. If there's anything I've learned from this thread it's that the other races need attention. What's next, a thread about "do enkis get urinary tract infections?"
-
Interesting, Jeraphon. I think they get urinary tract infections, due to their feline nature and the fact that e=mc².
-
I blame the developers for basing a racial type on felines. It may well have been a big drawing card for players and developers but it was not terribly original. I feel certain there would not be so much emphasis on Enkidukai if they were based on aardvarks.
54KB picture (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Orycteropus_afer_stuffed.jpg/800px-Orycteropus_afer_stuffed.jpg)
Indeed, this cat loving implementation may well have alienated many dog loving people from the game.
-
If only people were as interested in other races' cultures as this.
A three-page discussion on purring?
SERIOUSLY?
How about something about ynnwns or dermorians? Or lemurs? Or, heck, ylians? It's a well-known fact that there's more stuff about enkidukai culture than all the other races combined. If there's anything I've learned from this thread it's that the other races need attention. What's next, a thread about "do enkis get urinary tract infections?"
Well, i wonder why there's this intense focus on the kitty-kulture (k-k) of Yliakum...could be due to the fact that everyone that plays this game is somehow addicted to cats? It could very well be a catch-22 situation: someone wants cats in the game, devs instigate it, attracts more cat lovers, they demand more k-k...etc.
:whistling: :innocent:
Threads on Ynnwns, dermorians, Lemurs and Ylians would be great. But they get buried in the forum under threads on everything else (more threads on enkis). So unless there's going to be separate sections for each race, where discussions can be posted so that we can accurately gage the popularity of a race, it's going to look like enkis get all the attention...as always.
-
I blame the developers for basing a racial type on felines. It may well have been a big drawing card for players and developers but it was not terribly original. I feel certain there would not be so much emphasis on Enkidukai if they were based on aardvarks.
54KB picture (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Orycteropus_afer_stuffed.jpg/800px-Orycteropus_afer_stuffed.jpg)
Indeed, this cat loving implementation may well have alienated many dog loving people from the game.
I'd love to see a race baced on canines. Then we'd have a thread based on wheather they wag their tail when happy! (and quite honestly, in MMORPGs I've never seen it... heck off the top of my head I only remember 1 console games that had chars based on dogs! Though I can name 3 with Fox-based chars... that's still a total of 4 games compared with dozens of feline-based chars in games...)
And personally, I'd enjoy playing a race baced on aartvarks, I bet one of their skills woudl be to search for truffles and roots!
I'll explain what happened. It's very simple.
You attracted the Furries.
Furries are extremely intent on the furry content, it intrigues, ammuses and for some justifies our existance (yes I'm a furry) If there were several furry races you'd see the huge number of enkie fans be split into several groups. The reason they're all concentrating on this one race is because it's the only truely furry race. (if it makes anyone feel better, I'll start several thread for questions I had on the demons later ;) lol)
-
I'd love to see a race baced on canines. Then we'd have a thread based on wheather they wag their tail when happy! (and quite honestly, in MMORPGs I've never seen it... heck off the top of my head I only remember 1 console games that had chars based on dogs! Though I can name 3 with Fox-based chars... that's still a total of 4 games compared with dozens of feline-based chars in games...)
And personally, I'd enjoy playing a race baced on aartvarks, I bet one of their skills woudl be to search for truffles and roots!
The devs have already decided on how they want the races to look and they will NOT add anymore. So as a player race you will not be seeing this.
-
The devs have already decided on how they want the races to look and they will NOT add anymore. So as a player race you will not be seeing this.
I realize that, I was simply making a point, I appoligize if it seemed like I was asking for such a race, I realize the races were more-or-less difinitivly decided upon by the 3nd or 3rd release of PS.
-
Why about enkies and not other races? well I don't know about others so can only speak for myself, but I think it has to do with the fact there simply isn't really a picture of the other races. Enkies are popular but one can also look at them and logically think out how they would act becuase they do look like someting from planet earth.
As a roleplayer there are only two races that are really interesting at first note and those are the enkies and the dwarves.
Humans and elves ingame just make me shrug as I don't really want to play myself and a blue fish or blue rock guy doesn't really catch my attention. big red is a bit overkill for most people unless you want to hint evil and diaboli aren't ingame so. *shrugs*
-
There are three real life families of felines, the ones who purr but cannot roar, the ones who roar but cannot purr, and cheatahs who do not have retractable claws.
As for house cats being unable to purr and vocalize, I have often heard purrs within vocalizations, much like one can hear laughter within speech when one cannot stop laughing while talking.
Settings says that Enkis are close to nature, it would make sense that they would be a bit freer with body language and non-speech sounds such as purring or roaring, growling, hissing, etc.
-
Does it really hurt someone if Enkidukai are able to purr? Sorry, but don't see that Enkidukai get any unfair advantage if they are able to purr. I think Enkidukai can be played in many different ways: from the wild cats with human features to the "civilized" humans with catlike features. Why not let the players decide where their Enkidukai character falls in? I think the current setting open enough to allow this and it should stay that way to give the players some freedom to play what appeals to them.
*/me purrs contently*
-
I play an Enki, and I like the fact that it is very cat-like. Have i purred in character, no. Will I at some point in the future, quite possibly. Why would people play Dwarves as gruff and stout? Why would people play Kran as strong and slow? STEREOTYPES!!! If i am going to play a cat person, I am likely to play to catlike behaviors. I may even "pounce" another player if they annoy me.
I suppose that explains the rats all over Akk, cat toys!
Some people just need to chill and stop overthinking this GAME. What is that old saying... a cat by any other name... would still make my wife sneeze.