PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: mtownse on March 28, 2003, 08:33:13 am
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I realize the whole world of PlaneShift is fantasy so there are going to be some things which don\'t make sense until the rules of the fantasy are understood... could someone explain to me why the building have roofs, why there is fog, and what all those trees are doing alive and underground?
It would make a little sense if there was something saying all the people living down underground decended from people from above who brought their building styles and plant life below... what\'s the tie?
00Matthew
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Originally posted by mtownse
I realize the whole world of PlaneShift is fantasy so there are going to be some things which don\'t make sense until the rules of the fantasy are understood... could someone explain to me why the building have roofs, why there is fog, and what all those trees are doing alive and underground?
It would make a little sense if there was something saying all the people living down underground decended from people from above who brought their building styles and plant life below... what\'s the tie?
00Matthew
Why wouldn\'t the buildings have roofs? It rains there too (caused by condensation and other effects) so they need protection by that. And indeed several of the races come from above the ground originally.
Greetings,
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Originally posted by mtownse
...could someone explain to me why the building have roofs, why there is fog, and what all those trees are doing alive and underground?
To keep the heat in? Plus there are flying creatures and you don\'t want any \'unwanted material\' to be dropped on you. :)
As for the other things, there is a giant crystal that powers these things. Taken from the settings page:
Named the Azure Sun by those people who still remember the surface, it emits a radiation that is more shifted towards infrared if compared to the light of the sun, but is suitable anyway for photosynthesis and survival of many animals, vegetables, or mineral species. This radiation decays, however, with squared progression with the distance. At the seventh level the radiation is just enough to penetrate the mass of the lake in order to light it, while on the first level it is so strong that it allows wonderful crops and the breeding of great cattle, which provide milk and meat.
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Andrew
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wouldn\'t condensation collect on the lowest parts of the rock ceiling and drip in specific areas.... perhaps you could throw in some natural \"fountains\" because of this effect. just a thought, i won\'t give you more of my ideas to laugh at... just yet.
00Matthew
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I?ll be overly flippant here :-)
?It?s magic, leave it alone?
Actually we can come up with many reasons for rain and even snow and hail and lightning and all sorts of climactic events, if you want it to be more realistic game?I?m sure there is one out there.
We are making a very magical place, magic will be everywhere and in everything?the crystal is pouring magic all over the place?hell I even want it to literally Rain ogres and trolls, but that might be a bit harsh even if you have a roof. :-)
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The crystals are the main source of magic in the world. When I walk away from the game I want to say, \"Wow, if only we had some of those crystals here. Everything would be so cool. Imagine what I could do.\" I\'m not going to walk away from the game thinking \"I wish I had some of those crystals... and some rain that magically appears... and some ogres falling from the sky for no apparent reason... and trees underground.\" It\'s too much of a stretch of the imagination to do all that. The fantasy has to be believable in such a way that people can leave the game wishing that the world they live in had that one detail that made the fantasy world so enjoyable. You want something that people can obsess over and want to know all the details of, something that can be explained better than \"oh yeah, that\'s magic.\"
If I had been told \"well, the ceiling is so high the water vapor has room to form into clouds and condense\" then I would have been satisfied. Figure out exactly how high you consider the ceiling to be before you start handing out such facts. And then there will be atmospheric conditions to consider and whatnot... solidify the background.
00Matthew
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This proves that some people don\'t even try to read the available material, FAQ and forum threads before they start whining.
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I?m thinking it is pointless to make jokes on the forum, but oh well, even when I announce I am being Flippant, people don?t get it. Sorry for the confusion.
I?ll announce that the rest of this post is to be taken tongue and cheek. Or with a grain of salt, or taken half seriously.
The world has rain and lighting based on atmospheric pressure cause by the radiation of the crystal and in fact all the people are really mutations, because of the high radiation. The water evaporates and becomes clouds that then cause rain to fall. The rain clouds and the ground often have vastly different polarities and causes lighting. The pressure differences in the Vast cavern network causes temp differences and thus water condensation at low temps causes sleet and snow. Since the Crystal offers variable radiation levels it is not always burning off the clouds.
On really special occasions the winds up near the crystal cause odd vortexes that open rifts in pocket dimensions, this brings trolls and other monsters near the Crystal and then gravity sends them downward towards the ground of the main tunnel. So in effect it Rains Trolls and Ogres.
On the limit of believability issue, I would point to many places built in fantasy and many of the center of the worlds fiction and ask you what is wrong with that. Roofs often have many functions, one is maintaining heat, another is maintaining outside elements from coming in.
On condensation not being enough for rain?you might be right?but we could have millions of stalactites and have constant rain, but it seems cooler to have occasional rain.
Trees?well you plant a tree in fertile ground, you provide a source of certain radiation types providing photosynthesis then a tree will most likely grow?there could be many discussions on the validity of Oak trees growing with out having the right PH value in the ground or air?but that is a bit extreme, we will have odd foliage to provide theme and eye-candy to locations. However having an off white and grey landscape would make it easier for you to accept the validity of the game?perhaps some modelers will make clients that put stalagmites in place of trees and textures that are more in accordance with your realistic view. While they are at it they can replace all the monsters with giant cockroaches that are translucent and make all the races just different types of humans?
Oh, wait then we can take out the Crystal and give all the humans flashlights. That would be cool. And then when people die from falling or cave-ins and the giant cockroaches?well it?s time to make a new character.
This was not meant completely as an insult, but taking my last post seriously was insulting the intelligence of the development team. While many things are not explained in detail?we do not have a game yet, as we progress we will add more, also there are many things not published that add explanations to things, are they good enough to publish?no, but they will improve as we go on. If you feel you can add to the validity of this world, sign up for the settings team. Or perhaps if you want a really realistic game?see if another project or game is out there more in your liking
As for saying we need to solidify the background?well there is a lot that needs to be done, that is but one of a huge list and bibles worth settings material we need to write up not to mention a few thousand lines of code.
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ok I\'ll be the fourth developer to post a reply to this 3-post newbie.
Of course I\'m only posting to say that the other devs are wasting their time posting.... :-)
- Venge
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Okay...you want someone to explain trees? Here\'s my idea:
Caves are created by the flow of water, eroding the rock, correct? Because the acidity of the water flowing past the stone dissolves the minerals in the stone, which are swept away (or, more accurately, dripped away) to later land on something, wherin the water evaporates and leaves the minerals to form a small deposit, which eventually grows to form a stalagmite, unless, of course, the water is not given a chance to evaporate and is swept off someplace eles (i.e. an underground river). Well, to make a cave as big as the one Ylaikum exists in, you have to have a whole hell of a lot of water, and a whole hell of a lot of drainage. The water is provided by the natural cycle of evaporation-condensation-precipitation ocurring on the surface (we can assume that a decent-sized river or stream once flowed into the ground, perhaps by means of a rift caused by an earthquake). My theory is that the water drained into the lake, then out the bottom of the lake through another rift, perhaps caused again by the movement of our friends the tectonic plates. This water could have also trickled down the walls and helped to form the Labyrinth (which also could\'ve been formed by similar conditions as the ones explained above, but on a much smaller scale). Now, as you should know, the water in rivers and streams carry a great deal of sediments and nutrients along with them, not to mention the minerals (such as nitrogen, which is essential in the growth of plant life) that were dissolved from the stone. As, over time, the strength and amount of water pouring from the ceiling of the cave decreased, it deposits all the sediments. minerals, and nutrients onto the ledges of stone and according levels of the great cave it has created. This formed the basis of nutrient-rich, life-supporting soil that exists in Yliakum and the surrounding levels. The Azure Sun (the large, radioactive blue crystal) merely helps to replenish these nutrients and keep the people, plants, and other life going.
But that\'s only if you want to get all technical.
Satisfied?
Oh, and by the way, if you need this kind of explaination for every aspect of the game, I suggest you leave so that those of us with imagination can enjoy ourselves.
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personaly i dont think any of the devs are helping the matter by posting essays and using words like \"flippant\";
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Didnt we argue about why it rains already in some thread a few months ago?
Matthew, go away.
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All of this reminds me of a past thread (http://www.planeshift3d.com/forum/thread.php?threadid=2398&boardid=13&styleid=2) . :D
If anyone else has any other ideas on PS geology, flora, fawna, or any other PS world explanations, let me know (PM, email, or post it). I\'m currently reworking the PS geology/meteorology doc and would appreciate the input.
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Originally posted by cmhitman
personaly i dont think any of the devs are helping the matter by posting essays and using words like \"flippant\";
ever heard of a dictionary?
and if you don\'t want to read the essay don\'t.
the devs have the right to joke around too. thats almost all we do, while we wait.
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I personally think that some people are thinking TOO much about this. Mebbe reading TOO much into it. The trees are there. Ok lets go.
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Mtownse, Sorry.
I did not realize you where new to the boards and thought you where just asking stupid questions, not out of lack of knowledge but out of the typical, I?d do it better then you, but I?m not going to bother attitude prevalent on the boards at time. Sorry for my comments towards you, you caught me in the one week I decided to respond the way I feel about questions and not the way I should.
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I wouldn\'t bother abouting telling people a scientific definition of why it rains it just does i mean nobody seams to care that for some strange reason in Star Wars that there is sound in space i say just let it go it rains cause it does
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Lol about star wars!!! Ya, but I DO think it rains a little too much but thats just my opinion... then again, we ARE in a cave so, it should be damp... I dunno.
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ok, so the rain is explainable....but whats up with the thunder and lightning? How does that work?
oh, right, magic. Sorry my bad. ;) :P
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Thats right dude. Magic explains it all. That whole world is Magic. lol... thats how that world was created, magic!!! so, ya... also... btw, in case y\'all didn\'t know it\'s a computer game :D :D :D
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It\'s called the \"Harry Potthead\" Syndrome ;)
Remember that \"fantasy\" is a middlething between reality and imagination. It\'s great to know that the \"club-of-intrest\" has joined us, but don\'t take these things too serious. As Maresedotes say, it\'s a computer-game!
BTW. About Star-wars...it wouldn\'t be cool if they didn\'t add any \"pzaff\", \"ptjii\" and explosions to the space-scenes right? ;)
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I just have to add a note on the tree issue. Plants don\'t need actual sunlight to photosythesize. Any light of the correct wavelenght is sufficient. It has nothing to do with Ultra-violet radiation. Indoor plants grow even though glass is an efficient shield towards UV. And there are plants that handle different wavelengths of light, seaweed and algae are the best example of this since they absorb different wavelenghts as the light diminishes with the distance from the surface. All these adaptations would be usable for plants in a illuminated cavern as well.
Since I can\'t test PS yet since I\'m still waiting for the mac version, I can\'t tell how impossible the ecosystem looks from my perspective as an ecologist yet, but I will probably post if I find something that is unbearable through my eyes... but then on the other hand, I play D&D based games without complaining and I don\'t know if Wizards of the Coast ever heard of functional eco-systems ;)
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:D he he, lol. Absolutely.
That is funny.
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Kinshadow, if you need help with any explanations and geology or biology workwork, I am an Paleobiology major. Meaning I can tell you about geology, biology, and adaptivity. It would be nice to create an ecosystem that makes sense in terms of science.
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Originally posted by Grey
Kinshadow, if you need help with any explanations and geology or biology workwork, I am an Paleobiology major. Meaning I can tell you about geology, biology, and adaptivity. It would be nice to create an ecosystem that makes sense in terms of science.
Thanks, if you have any specific suggestions or if you see something wrong that is mentioned in prior thread, let me know. I have a good Geology/Anthropology background and I am supplementing my Biology info with heavy doses of the Discovery Channel, but I will appreciate any other expertise offered.
I\'d bounce ideas off the forum, but that would violate my NDA. You can get an idea of my current direction (at least as far as the geology and meteorology) by reading through the linked thread (http://www.planeshift3d.com/forum/thread.php?threadid=2398&boardid=13&styleid=2) (toward the end). Never the less, I am very open to suggestion, so if you have any ideas on the way life would be effected by the environment and magic/radiation, send me a PM or throw it in a thread.
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Well I\'m by no means an expert on geology, aside from what i learned in a high school class, but...
The only way i could see this make any sence in a real world aspect is for the PS stalacite to be located under a relativly high area (above the ocean of the surface world). Perhaps even inside a mountain range but reaching far beneath that into the underground. For example in our world the stalacite would be under the mountains in tibet or perhaps under the midwest of the US.
This is because for water to drain from the surface down into the stalicite and thereafter drain in a meaningfull way out of the stalicite the water flow would have to be a part of the surface worlds eco-system. So rainfall from the surface world drains down into the stalicite. Thereafter it runs to the bottem of the stalicite and into the lake at the bottem. However this lake is in reality part of the surface worlds ground water system. So if the stalicite was under a high landmass above the ocean of the surface world it would be able to run from the bottem of the stalicite down/across the continent of the surface world and into the ocean. This is why locating the stalicite in a mountain range of the surface world might be a good idea so the water of the lake is higher then the water level of the surface worlds oceans. Sorry if I repeat myself but i\'m not sure if people understand what i\'m saying.
Basicaly I think there\'s a misconception with the original idea because water is being introduced into the stalicite but not really disapearing (from what i can see). In the real world water doesn\'t just sink into the core of the world it slowly drains back into the ocean following the ground water system of a continent and from the ocean evaporates into the air and from there rains back onto land. For the stalicites water system to make sence it would therefor have to be involved in this system.
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Why is everyone attacking mtownse for asking for a logical explanation? Valfaran gave a good explanation, but then went on to say \"go away, so those of us with imagination can enjoy ourselves.\" or something to that effect. I think that saying, \"It\'s magic\" doesn\'t explain anything. Magic has laws to it. If you were a wizard, you\'d quickly discover that everything doesn\'t automatically do itself just because there\'s magic around. For example, some dude wants to make a cloak that allows him to store an infinite amount of things on the inside without showing any sign of change on the outside. So, he does, and then when he puts it on, he falls into the new universe he has created within the cloak and can\'t get out. You have to define everything you do with magic, it\'s like programming or, well, just about anything else. As for Star Wars, people do wonder why it makes noise and why there are large explosions that don\'t immediately extinguish do to lack of oxygen. As for the devs, you say there are more explanations on their way. Okay, that\'s cool.
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so rave, do YOU believe in magic? You seem to speak with such authority lol. :D
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Originally posted by Ravenmaster
Why is everyone attacking mtownse for asking for a logical explanation? Valfaran gave a good explanation, but then went on to say \"go away, so those of us with imagination can enjoy ourselves.\" or something to that effect. I think that saying, \"It\'s magic\" doesn\'t explain anything.
Well, the simplest explanation for all questions asked is that you can compare the Crystal\'s behavior to this environment as the sun\'s behavior in ours. It provides heat, light, and other additive effects. This creates an entire weather system (wind, rain, clouds, etc) and allows plants to grow. Of course, there are many other aspects to the environment (the fact that the system is so small, the darker lower levels, and integrity issues with the underground world, etc.) that are sustained by magical means via the crystal and other \"divine\" sources. I can\'t explain these here, but do not fear. A \"rational\" system of explanations for these various issues is in the works (or has been done, depending on the topic).
Originally posted by rainmaker
The only way i could see this make any sence in a real world aspect is for the PS stalacite to be located under a relativly high area (above the ocean of the surface world). Perhaps even inside a mountain range but reaching far beneath that into the underground. For example in our world the stalacite would be under the mountains in tibet or perhaps under the midwest of the US.
The dynamics of the PS environment provides several challenges in that its scale is rather unwieldy. An offset of the cave\'s altitude would explain the position of the water table, but that is not the only feasible explanation. The position of the water supply can also be effected by the porousness of the native rock, the gravity on the planet (and satellites), atmospheric considerations (content, pressure, etc.), and, of course, magic. The end dynamic will most likely be a combination of these factors. The presence of higher elevations above the environment might also explain why the system may have been naturally formed in the first place (water channeling, possible tectonic influences, etc.). Thank you for your insight.
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I always figured this stalactite was just like a regular stalactite in a humongous cave in a humongous world. Is this the case, or is the outside world regular sized and there\'s just this gargantuan stalactite many times larger than mammoth cave itself hidden within some humongous cave that takes up a good deal of the planet\'s mantle? Like if you dug through the walls of this cave, or went up through the top to the outside world, would animals be miles tall and small insects eat pterosaurs?