PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Mrokii on March 12, 2008, 12:55:56 am
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Hi all,
I have been playing this game for quite some time and while I appreciate the effort of all the people behind it, I think limiting the weapons stock on all shops is the worst thing ever invented in this game. Even more than the annoying introduction system. I hate both.
Someone told me that the reason behind the weapon-limitation was to improve relationship between players. Ha! I can nothing but laugh about that! If that really was your plan behind it, I think you screwed up big time (imho). And no, I won't apologize for it, because I rellay think you did. And I will tell you why:
1. For newbies the game was hard enough at start upto now. They had to kill rats for quite some time to have enough Tria to buy better weapons. And now they even have to do that for a longer time because they can't buy cheap daggers anymore! Great work, really. And even worse, when they have enough money they can't choose anything but one weapon! Wow! That is a *very* realistic way of doing business in a shop.
2. About "improving relationship" or communication between players: The only thing this limitation leads to is that, instead of just buying a weapon one likes to use, he or she has to find someone who crafts weapons and sells them. That *might* lead to roleplay, yes. But upto now most of the people I met who sell crafted weapons wanted me to buy weapons with ridiculous quality for an equally ridiculous amount of Tria. And even if there were others. Why should I go around looking for a crafter? The shops are there to sell things like that, imho! I go to a crafter if I want to buy a special weapon, but not if I just want to buy a usual one. And what about the newbies. Do you expect them to go around for hours until they may or may not find a crafter? I am sure they will love that...
3. It defeats roleplay, because now, instead of just buying the weapon that I want to have for a realistic price in a shop (which is fast), I have to invest countless hours to dig Platinum or Gold just to have enough money to buy a weapon (If I don't want the standard one, that is). Wouldn't it be better if I could invest that time into roleplay? And the next thing is that I will have to try and find someone who crafts them. Or I have to do it myself. And this leads me to my next point.
4. On one hand you talk about "individuality" in Planeshift and how every player should develop a unique personality. But on the other hand you do nothing at all to reward those that do. Even worse, for the reasons I stated above, I think you force players to be generalists that are good at everything at the same time! One should be good at digging to get Tria, have to be a good fighter too (to get some experience points now and then) and now one should also invest precious time into crafting! Ha! So much for individuality!
I mean, why should one concentrate on becoming a great wizard for example, if there is no benefit at all? Or what if one wants to become a barbarian but instead of fighting he is also forced to become a miner or a crafter just because there is no other way to get enough Tria or good weapons? I am sorry, but I think Planeshift has never rewarded or at least supported ones wish to specialize in one area.
I have heard complaints now and then about players that do nothing but dig for Gold or Platinum. Well, I would say for the most part this is the fault of the game itself, because there are not many other ways to get enough money for good armor and weapons. And you guys made it even worse now, thank you very much. A few more of this "improvements" and I will be gone because it gets more and more frustrating and boring to play.
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Though you have an over reactive intensity in your post, I agree with a lot of your points. Just throwing that out there...now prepare to be flamed, I hate to say.
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Well there will be no flaming.
Remember every player will begin with the weapon of their choice for going through the tutorial.
Crafters who are not as good will certainly be charging less over time and the economy will adjust.
Most of the arguments forwarded lack any consideration for the crafters, let's hear from them.
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Yeah, somewhat implied in Xillix's post but not directly addressed is the fact that this opens up the market for low level crafters. Where before low leveled crafters would need another source of income, now they can sell to low leveled characters (who would otherwise have gone to trasoks.)
It'll take some adjusting but, I believe it's a step in the right direction.
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It takes a bit to adjust to not being able to buy weapons, but you'll get used to it. And anyway, it encourages RP and low-level crafters (like me).
It also starts a drive toward a more player-based economy, which I've seen some arguements for on these forums. The only reason people mine and fight and now as you say, will craft, is because they want to advance through the levels, generally as fast as they can. Its perfectly possible to be just a fighter, or just a miner. You're rewards don't have to be seen as numbers. Planning roleplay events is fun and rewarding for all who are in it, even though it negatively impacts those numbers, like tria.
Buying weapons might even be less expensive now, it depends on the crafter. A nice crafter might even give away their blades to a newbie for free. And not all crafted blades are Q300/300, the only reason there were such high grade player-made weapons was because they were the only type of weapon worth selling
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I agree with you in the sense that it could fail, and lead to a more divided community, but I think that will only happen in those that are not into role playing, or just not into dedicated playing in general. A need for money and weapons will result in coordination of people, perhaps they get together to go mine some ore for a new weapon, and become friends. Or even just get together to split money, craft, make money, etc. This in turn, may result in a much less solo community. By merchants not selling many weapons, we are forced to rely on the players. This will give everyone a fair shot at making a good sale. You gave the example of, why be a great wizard if it were pointless? Well, before the update, why try to be a crafter, if you would be out done by even the simplest NPC merchants, let alone the great player crafter? I personally think that, as everyone said, it will lead to a more player dependent economy, which will add more role playing value, since you won't be relying on NPCs all day. Either way, the game is obviously still in early development, and I don't take anything as being permanent until the final release, so if an update is visibly ruining the game, I'm sure it will be removed or altered in the next update. I have not seen anything negative occur because of this, so as far as I am concerned, any attempt at a more player dependent game is worth the try. My only compliant is that it is hard to earn money without some skills, but that only makes it slow to get going, not difficult.
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The first three points I disagree with. Lower level crafters will sell lowel level weapons for lower prices. Probably much lower.
4. On one hand you talk about "individuality" in Planeshift and how every player should develop a unique personality. But on the other hand you do nothing at all to reward those that do. Even worse, for the reasons I stated above, I think you force players to be generalists that are good at everything at the same time! One should be good at digging to get Tria, have to be a good fighter too (to get some experience points now and then) and now one should also invest precious time into crafting! Ha! So much for individuality!
I mean, why should one concentrate on becoming a great wizard for example, if there is no benefit at all? Or what if one wants to become a barbarian but instead of fighting he is also forced to become a miner or a crafter just because there is no other way to get enough Tria or good weapons? I am sorry, but I think Planeshift has never rewarded or at least supported ones wish to specialize in one area.
I have heard complaints now and then about players that do nothing but dig for Gold or Platinum. Well, I would say for the most part this is the fault of the game itself, because there are not many other ways to get enough money for good armor and weapons. And you guys made it even worse now, thank you very much. A few more of this "improvements" and I will be gone because it gets more and more frustrating and boring to play.
This is an interesting point and one that I agree with to an extent. I do not believe the Devs can do much about it, yet, and it's not their fault.
Now, with that out of the way. The problem here seems to be that fighting will deliver too much exp and not enough tria - Mining will deliver too much tria but not enough exp and now, crafting may be needed for low levels to have weapons (Something I doubt). The first two parts though, hold quite a bit of weight.
Seeing as people will always go for the path of least resistance, you'll almost always find that powerful warriors have mined in their past.
It's really a doozy. Unless you make mining even less fun (take much longer to get gold/platinum) or somewhat unrealistic (every valuable resource require high levels) - the only time when it'll be less 'fight for exp, mine for tria' is when finding mines becomes hard or, mines get depleted.
Discuss!
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If I can make a suggestion . . .
Maybe, at least for the period it will take for the in-game economy to adjust (namely, for crafters specializing in low-level weapons to start making their mark) have one basic dagger, one basic sword, and one basic hammer available from different merchants? So if no one's available to sell you a, say, dagger, or the only PC merchant you've found is charging a ridiculous price, you can scrap convenience for economy and make the long haul to Ojaveda to buy a dagger from Trasok, or haul up to Taemian for a basic hammer, or whatever. I doubt it would hurt crafters too much, since most people would probably choose the more convenient, if probably slightly more expensive option (I know I would), but it would give non-crafter players a little bit of a choice.
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If you want a cheap normal weapon you could always hang around the arena and ask some of the people training there to sell you something. I am pretty sure most bladed weapons can still be looted there and if you ask nicely at the smith there, someone will sell you one. It is probably not a good idea to bother people while they are occupied. If you want a bludgeoning weapon you can make the trek to the BD, there is a fellow there that has a selection for sale. You could train melee until you are strong enough to fight the sentient mobs yourself.
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The Dark Empire is already making plans to sell regular looted weaponry at cheap prices, very similar to the NPC prices. This will all take some time to get set up properly but it's coming ... and I hope other initiatives like this will join in.
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Talking about a working economy: A problem is that at the moment "useless" materials like gold or platinum pay far too good.
No miner goes for iron or coal to satisfy the demand of metallurgists - which results in high prices for steel and therefore even higher prices for crafted blades. A new player simply can't afford a basic crafted short sword without hunting rats for weeks. No fun.
The smiths, on the other hand, can't sell their crafts for a decent price because they had to pay too much for the steel they used. No fun.
There's no money circuit at all. Miners and high-level metallurgists make huge amounts of money out of nothing and -at the moment- the system encourages them to do so.
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I have a merchant character who sells weapons and glyphs regularly.
When i first discovered the limited availability of weapons from npc's, i thought it was great. I stocked up on low level looted weapons and even made a deal with a crafter to provide lower specification crafties. However the sad fact is i have not been asked once for any of the basic weapons, players still want the best they can get. I still sell plenty weapons, but the vast majority are high specification weapons.
So from what i've experienced there is little demand for these weapons sadly. I will continue to hold a small stock of them however :) Just in case.
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The market will be going up as time goes on. Right now everybody has their weapons from CB ;)
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If I can make a suggestion . . .
Maybe, at least for the period it will take for the in-game economy to adjust (namely, for crafters specializing in low-level weapons to start making their mark) have one basic dagger, one basic sword, and one basic hammer available from different merchants?
That is the best idea I have seen so far on this matter. Others said thait an economy will develop, but it is also stated that this may take some time. And it isn't the biggest problem (imho). The biggest problem is reliability. With the last version I could be sure I would get a certain weapon at a certain place if I desperately needed it. Now, even if there were some kind of economy, I couldn't rely on that. Even if there were enough Crafters, how should I know about them?
If the new system should be a success, crafters (or guilds, better) have to be able to buy a shop and can guarantee that there is always somebody in there, so I can get a weapon if I need one. As long as they only can sell their weapons on the street, it won't be much fun as you can never be sure when, where or even if you can find a weapon to buy.
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I have a merchant character who sells weapons and glyphs regularly.
When i first discovered the limited availability of weapons from npc's, i thought it was great. I stocked up on low level looted weapons and even made a deal with a crafter to provide lower specification crafties. However the sad fact is i have not been asked once for any of the basic weapons, players still want the best they can get. I still sell plenty weapons, but the vast majority are high specification weapons.
So from what i've experienced there is little demand for these weapons sadly. I will continue to hold a small stock of them however :) Just in case.
I have a small suggestion for this issue, too. (I'm just full of ideas today! :sweatdrop:) Maybe we can have a stickied thread devoted purely to in-game advertisements from crafters? There are already the in-game message threads for Oja and Hydlaa, I know, but I kind of figure we should make this as easy for people as we can, and have one central place to advertise goods. It'd have the added benefit of letting people shop around for the cheapest prices - y'know, like they would in reality ;) - which would help with the inflation that we've got going on. This way people will at least know who to be looking around for.
EDIT: And I just realized I failed to mention why your comment brought that to mind for me - I think the problem so far is that the people who would be buying basic weapons, namely newbies, probably don't have much idea of who to ask. It would be helpful if they were able to see a list of merchants who will sell them basic daggers and whatnot.
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Theres an auction channel IG one could always ask in there too or even just ask around ICly as for an out of game market place its not going to happen.
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Well, here are my 2 tria on this. I like it. Here is why.
Recently a new player contacted me and asked me how to get daggers. I looted him a pair of basic daggers. That helped us to learn each other. If he could buy the daggers from harnquist he would have made a few mouse clicks more, but we never would have talked to each other.
Sure, you cannot go and make a few mouse clicks to obtain those weapons. You have to talk to people. But weapons are all still lootable. If you need weapons, go into the arena and talk to people. You might find a nice guy who gifts you some weapons. Unlike the /introduce 'feature' this one really promotes roleplaying. But while doing so beware the pvp pit. Its a room full with dlayo gladiators. In that room each player can attack another one without challanging.
Players who kill and loot npcs at the arena (and other spots to) loot weapons. Most of them are not that intresting to them as they only give them a hand full of tria. Go there and roleplay you lost your weapons. They got stolen or broke or what ever. Talk to people and make friends there. Thats more important then getting a basic weapons with a few mouse clicks and a hand full of tria.
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Advocating for a "short term" replacement of weapons is essentially saying "go back to the status quo." If we do this the market will never develop. I am more interested in what people thing about what peeg had to say and how we might alleviate that concern. Peeg if you have good enough Ideas perhaps you can come work for me. It is a track to get into crafting development and testing.
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There is an easy solution to Peeg's problem.
Start by asking yourself, what should determine the value of something?
Answer: The availability.
From there it's easy to see the problem with platinum or gold. They're both easily available in unlimited quantities. Sure the lower your mining skill the longer it takes but even someone with a low mining skill can mine platinum. I tested it out. My mining skill was four and I got five ores in fifteen minutes, which is good for some three thousand tria.
Now the solution to the problem.
1) Decrease the value drastically.
I was hoping that this solution was brought into the economy with the new client. It was said that the more often something was sold, the less NPCs pay for it but I haven't noticed anything regarding that. Make it so that after a hundred platinum ores being sold to an NPC, they'll be overstocked and pay you half of it's former price for a week. A hundred more, cut the number in half again. If NPCs could actually sell what they had in stock, even better. NPCs would be completely depend on players for the goods they can sell. Then the price can depend on the real stock, not a set time period. (the numbers are examples but you catch the drift.) With a system like this any item's price will even out automatically. Things that are hard to come by or only a few people can produce/gather will be more expensive.
or
2) Decrease the availability drastically.
Make platinum and gold resources that are only available in limited quantities. A mine can be 'dry' after somewhere between 200 and 500 ores. When it is, there is no more platinum there for anyone. A new mine could spawn somewhere else now, waiting to be discovered and exploited again. Resources that should be less rare can have bigger mine yields and/or more mines of the same type available at a time. It's also possible to make permanent and unlimited mines for things like iron, coal, copper, ... and only have the rare resources spawn in limited quantities.
or
3) Make commonly available items commonly available again.
I like this option the least since it's not a real solution, like Xillix said. It is the easiest to implement though and that is making common resources like iron, coal, etc. available through NPCs.
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I'll bite Xilly. It seems extremely odd to me that knowing the problems gold mining has caused they went ahead and put platinum back in the game so soon. There is a use for gold that is other than just to get rich and that is in shield(?) manufacture and that is also odd. The precious metals really have little place in weapon/armor crafting except perhaps in ornamentation. They are too soft to be of use by themselves. Since there is little use for them their enhanced value seems out of context, perhaps when jewelry making is available there will be a reason for their value. There is a problem with that too and that is the limits put on the amount of jewelry that you can wear. Why is it we are limited to two rings and one necklace? I can stick three or four rings on one finger and have ten fingers, I can wear rings on my toes, hanging from my ears through my nose. I can wear any number of things around my neck, and a lot of bracelets on my arms and legs. Limiting the amount of jewelry one can wear limits the amount that can be sold. I understand that only so much can be displayed on the avatar but multiple items could be listed in the description automatically.
The npc's should not buy useless stuff for a premium unless they are going to keep it in stock to try to resell it. They should not buy it for more than they can sell it for either. It is just common sense.
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I question why master smiths such as 'Trasok and others' would be making 'common' cheap weapons in the first place when they could be making high quality items for a premium price. You know, sort of like players do.
A smith's work is his calling card and advertisement. No self-respecting smith would make and sell less than his best. I think it was a mistake to have the smiths sell (or buy) sub-par items in the first place, and this starts to correct that.
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I am sure Trasok would get mad if you inferred that his basic weapons were cheap. He would say they were the best. Any smith would be turning out basic weapons and implements more than special ones, as they would be staple items. Like basic daggers or swords, but they would not be cheap or necessarily low-quality.
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I have a merchant character who sells weapons and glyphs regularly.
When i first discovered the limited availability of weapons from npc's, i thought it was great. I stocked up on low level looted weapons and even made a deal with a crafter to provide lower specification crafties. However the sad fact is i have not been asked once for any of the basic weapons, players still want the best they can get. I still sell plenty weapons, but the vast majority are high specification weapons.
So from what i've experienced there is little demand for these weapons sadly. I will continue to hold a small stock of them however :) Just in case.
I think the problem is not that there is no demand, but more that people do not know you sell them. And that is one thing that makes this change so frustrating. They limited the possibility to buy weapons but did not provide something else for it. What they *have* to do (imho) is to provide players (or better guilds as a whole) shops where they can sell weapons on a regular basis. And this should be done as soon as possible.
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If the dev team are dead-set on keeping this, then the players probably need to start putting our heads together to find ways to connect potential buyers with potential sellers. And in a competitive atmosphere! Seriously, prices won't go down to a reasonable level until people start trying to undercut each other ;) Regular market days, perhaps? My character's been talking about arranging a festival in Xiosia's honor, I'm tempted to work some "come and sell your stuff" aspects in.
But yeah, I'm definitely not a fan of the logic behind this decision. As a way of encouraging RP it's heavy-handed, and as a way of trying to fix the economy it's just passing the buck from crafters unable to sell their beginner efforts at good prices to players (largely newbies, at that) having to play blind man's bluff to get basic items. It can be worked with, but it's still silly.
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"Too much money in the economy"
"Not enough money in the economy"
"Too easy to get gold"
"Too expensive to train"
"Bring back platinum!!"
"Crafters are getting shafted by looted weapons"
"No one is buying crafted weapons because npcs sell them"
"Crafting is destroying RP"
This and more I have directly made efforts to fix AND efforts to explain the changes. There will always be more changes and I always listen to the players. I am beginning to experience diminishing returns from the process. If in the end no one will ever be satisfied the idea of putting forth so much effort to hear what players have to say is losing some of its luster.
Sorry to say, these last 5 months or so of polling and pushing devs to try to get "the people" what they wanted has not proved to have the impact on the player base I would have Imagined. It seems even "listening to the players" is a doomed approach because while many players have ideas, not many seem to have the patience to let those ideas play out without raising a fuss over even the most minor of changes.
I will be doing what I can to absorb the thoughts people have forwarded.
I agree with some of what Zan had to say but I think we need more thoughts on the topic, I am not going to deal with the headache removing gold and platinum will cause.
wren, I see what you are saying but I disagree categorically with your initial post.
I think that players getting organized to make regular player merchant venues is the best case scenario for the game.
As to your categorization of the a move toward a more player based economy as "silly," well that is a silly thing to say :)
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this probably isn't the best time to ask this, but how about instead of posting ideas of what you (the player) would like to see in the game, why not post ideas of what would contribute overall to the development of the game and NOT give the developer headaches when you go split personality on them?
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I think this release has been one of the best yet Xillix! Don't let the complaints of a few speak for all. I think if you polled players as a whole you would get more positive than negative comments.
The fact of the matter is this, when things change it affects people. Some benefit, some may not. I wonder why update at all if everytime they do all it brings is "woe is me..." You cannot expect the developers / GMs to hold your hand through every little hardship, the game is about virtual life. Just like real life there is going to be challenges, changes, trials, and triumphs. As far as weapons goes there are other sources of weapons other than NPCs. Some player interaction will have to take place in order to gain those weapons. This gives us the opportunity to be creative and find a solution to place those weapons with the people in need at a price that both sides feel is fair and things will balance out.
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For the record, Xillix, I liked this change and still do ;)
It seems you only get yelled at, because the players that like the change just play the game. You mostly get only part of the story on a given issue - the reasons people don't like it. Let's give it a bit of time, and see if the player base adjusts.
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Moon, selling a lot of generic items can be more profitable than selling a few high quality ones.
Xillix, don't listen to everything people say you. There will always be some who want it this way and others who want it changed. Everything you do will disappoint someone ... but that's where you count on your own brain to make decisions. :P Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that you listen to players, a group can always see more possibilities than one or two people .. but you still have to be selective to what you do. Don't just do it to make players happy, do it if it makes sense.
As for the game economy, one extra note. We now have a gigantic infinite inflow of cash: mining precious metals and looting weaponry to a lesser degree .. and we have a gigantic outflow of cash: training. Unless you can tune those two to cancel eachother out, you'll always have a hard time stabilizing the economy.
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4. On one hand you talk about "individuality" in Planeshift and how every player should develop a unique personality. But on the other hand you do nothing at all to reward those that do. Even worse, for the reasons I stated above, I think you force players to be generalists that are good at everything at the same time! One should be good at digging to get Tria, have to be a good fighter too (to get some experience points now and then) and now one should also invest precious time into crafting! Ha! So much for individuality!
I have always done things my way, So yes you can be a Individual, every member of my guild did it his or her way, not my way, that was what it was all about.
Now let us give a quick mention as to why this is not quite working as planed YET. The answer is a simple one, and sham on you all for not even giving it a thought, Monsters They do not fight back, so why would a new player buy a weapon, he/she can just go kill to get what they want. So give these changes a chance to work when they figure out the problem with Monsters.
Also worth a mention here is the true player that will help a person for no gain to themselves, you know of who I talk about, Plenty of guilds out there help new as well.
I have herd the crafters voice in game, various cry of come buy my wears, Just give a thought to settings when selling.
Sample Prices
The following samples of the purchasing power of Trias will give you a better understanding of the currency:
Object to Buy Trias Hexas Octas Circles
a pint of good beer 2 tria - - -
a lunch in a tavern 5 tria - - -
leather pants and shirt 25 tria 2 hexa, 5 tria - -
a good steel sword 350 tria 35 hexas 7 octas 1 circle, 2 octas
farmer's one month salary 250 tria 25 hexas 5 octas 1 circle
healthy, trained pterosaur 45,000 tria 4,500 hexas 2,400 octas 180 circles
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I've followed this thread with great interest. here some of my ramblings on the matter....forgive my ignorance of the detailed game mechanics if any of this seems like nonsense.
I agree that there is a need for a more player-based economy.
Several comments have indicated that part of the problem lies in balance, and in integration.
It seems that the different threads of the economy, i.e. the paths of resource flow, are not well enough integrated to allow a player driven economy to regulate itself.
Self-regulation requires resource flows that are engaged in feedback loops - this is a systemic issue. right now, it seems that the game's economy is organised more in the fashion of a linear, throughput-based economy, with npcs, mobs and mines as sources on the one end, and npc's again as sinks on the other. To allow value to remain in the economy without fluctuations having too disruptive an effect on pc's, a diversification of resource and value flows would be important, as would the increased participation of players in such a diverse web of crafts and professions. pcs need to be able to play a much more diverse and fundamental role in gathering the raw materials, processing and selling them - for just about every item available in the game, starting with one-eyed rat skins for those outrageously fluffy adventurers' boots we all desire.
It would seem that another part of the solution might be to tackle this issue of systemic integration by making the amount of items available from npc's directly related to the amount of raw material stock he receives from pc's. the sourcing of raw materials can be seen as a type of newbie quest-like activity, engaged in until pc's have acquired trias and skills that allow them to render more valuable services or craft goods of their own. accordingly, the price of all goods traded should be allowed to fluctuate in relation to the availability of the supplies needed to make it, and the amount pc's are willing to pay for it. in converse, npc traders and smiths should only be allowed to purchase stock if they have enough trias to do so, or if players agree to sell to them for lower values. they should only be allowed to craft items if they have stock, and only sell items they have crafted or bought.
since pc's discover items as loot from mobs, could we not close this cycle a little more by allowing mobs to loot fallen players too, unless they have buddies or guild-fellows who salvage the body and its possessions....? in this case, items would have greater persistence and circulate more widelythroughout the game world, players would be more cautious about venturing to the death realms, and more fastidious about only entering combat with trusted companions with a variety of specialist skills to back them up.
gold does seem to be strangely over-valued, considering it has little utilitarian value in-game. gold's value (apart from its possible role in crafting magical items and jewellery) would likely be more symbolic. this also relates to its use in the minting of currency. currency symbolises abstract value, that can be used to assign comparative value to items of different kinds. this is what allows it to be the grease that helps items to change hands and services to be rendered. iexcluding jewellers, imperial or royal mints would generally be the only entities to purchase gold in its raw form.
trias, though, seem to leak from the economy as water through a sieve - via npc traders, and through trainers. the trainer issue is one that i really feel passionate about - it needs to be adressed urgently.
why can advanced players not earn xp and pp by training those less skilled (e.g. a master swordsman can train anyone up to 5 levels beneath him, and receives rewards proportional to the level of his students)? Pc trainers can charge what they wish. NPC's should only train complete beginners, in my opinion, so that maxing skills depends on the development of the type of master-fellow-apprentice relationships that could form such a strong foundation for medieval-style guilds, which would then likely be governed by
councils of influential masters who extend patronage to their factions of supporters.
this should be tied to the circulation of of raw materials, goods, and services: to conduct their businesses and maintain their guild halls and other properties, guilds would depend on fellowship fees as well as on preferential access to the relevant resources - which could be much scarcer than they currently are. for this reason, I like the idea of limited resources that respond to over-exploitation with scarcity and disappearance. in the competition for scarce and finite resources and the ongoing enagement of players in extraction, production, trade, patronage networks lies a wellspring for truly vibrant guild intrigues and roleplaying! \\o//
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A more player based economy would need there to be more consequences of using equipment. You can repair something today and only lose 1 point of quality; why not have something break faster than that? Perhaps a weapons or armor can only be repaired an amount equal to 2x its original quality; after that, it breaks. That could mean more demand for weapons, which would then cause an increase in prices. But, would people pay as much for weapons if they knew they were going to break quickly?
I don't, however, like the idea of widespread material restrictions on all ores. On the more precious ones (sliver, gold, platinum), sure, as those don't have much of a function and in my eyes at least, are seen as the more 'elite' resources. Guilds getting into resource fights over those are fine; they don't affect the new user that much.
But, things needed for general crafting, like iron and coal, should not be limited (or at least not nearly as much). A new player should be able to start out on their own, and should not be forced to join a guild to get basic materials. In addition, new players tend to get lost, and changing locations of those basic materials would frustrate people trying to give the game a shot. Not to mention that it could lead down the path of guilds supplying themselves; why purchase from the market when you've got the mines controlled, metallurgists to work it, blacksmiths to make things, etc.? I don't know of any miner or metallurgy based guilds, as those two professions are usually tagged for members of larger guilds to supply their blacksmiths, so why buy from the market when you can buy from your friends and make sure that the money stays within your guild?
I've always thought the high level PCs being able to train other players would be a fascinating idea. Get old, you don't need to work, just train people! But, having some sort of restriction on that would be needed; people could use bots to 'sell their training,' or 1 well known master could get mobbed.
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agreed on the need to secure stable broad-level access to bulk resources like coal and iron ore.
agreed also on luxury resources. perhaps it would also be useful to consider the economy as a system that exists on the backbone of an ecology, with a diverse base of living and non-living resources which are "mined", processed and benficiated. the type of economic activity newbies engage in could be used to define a career path: coal & iron ore -> smelting ->blacksmithing -> goldsmith/weaponsmith/armorer/locksmith; or: gathering -> lumber/hunting; lumber -> carpentry/joinery -> carver/bowyer/fletcher/toolmaker
etc. living resources would be more fragile and respond more quickly to over-use than bulk nonliving resources. their spawning rate could depend on environmental conditions - no more deerskin cause the lumberjacks flattened the forest!
historical guilds tended to be very much a characterised by specialisation of some kind. they also often had complex internal hierarchies - including trainer hierarchies.
top-level masters would not necessarily get mobbed - most folks could not afford their services, and would be quite satisfied to learn from his senior students or at least from initiates who know the basics.
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@SynergfyFlo:
I like the idea about more limited ressources and the availability of items depending on the raw materials" the merchants get. This would surely create a real need for supplying, finding or mining certain materials and it also might lead to more realistic prices.
But I do not like the idea, that a player would need to rely on more advanced players or even guilds to get higher training or materials (if that is what you were saying). This leads to some kind of master-apprentice relationship and while that can lead to some roleplaying, it can also lead to some kind of "slavery". That maybe a rather pessimistic thinking, but I fear, that newbies (or independent players) would need to do an awful lot of things until a master grants a share of his wisdom. And while some might like the idea of restricting materials (which is not possible at the moment anyway, as you would need restricted areas for mines that can be controlled by somebody, a guild typically) it might even lead to guildwars over some sources or to areas that are not even accessible for newbies or independent players.
And another problem arises for the independent players (like me). I simply don't want to be in a guild, but I might have no other choice if the only source for higher training or certain materials is a certain guild. Sorry, if I misunderstood something you wrote.
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ah, i agree completely about the difficulties this would create for independents, etc...
but that is exactly the awesome thing about it, in terms of scenario realism and role-playing. sure, resources like skills, cash, equipment could come to be increasingly monopolised by certain guilds and powerful pc's - but this would make it so much more realistic, and challenging. also, with the many different guilds already in existence, it would lead to some interesting competition and alliances, but also create an opportunity for guilds to define themselves with more than just heraldry, ideology and ethos - but in terms of "real" resources and the political intrigues associated with maintaining and expanding these.
then, in terms of roleplaying, there would most likely also be opportunities for loners to find archetypal hermit-style masters of high accomplishment who refuse to align themselves with any particular guild or organisation and prefer instead to pursue a life of solitude dedicated to the practise and refinement of their arts. there could even be loose (non-guild) alliances of independents who support each other.
partly, though, this is only an issue with the present skill system. actually, a teacher is only really necessary to introduce a character to the basics of a skill.
thereafter, if the student applies himself to the study of his art, a teacher would no longer be necessary, though certainly useful in terms of accelerating the process of learning and in terms of revealing specific techniques. often the higher levels of learning and understanding arise spontaneously from an intuitive grasp of the inner logic of a skill, after a long time of practise and inquiry. miyamoto musashi, one of the greatest historical japanese swordsmen ever, though introduced to formal swordsmanship at an early age, cast aside the conventional wisdom, refined his art during periods of ascetic retreat in the wilds, and through trial-and-error application in scores of lethal encounters. this completely revolutionised swordsmanship in his time. the game should accommodate this style of progression also.
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Just an idea.....
I think NPC smiths should sell common items, but with a catch.
They should start with 0 in stock.
*Huh?*
Yes. 0 stock and they can only sell what's been sold to them from players. Looted items not wanted, crafted items "too low" for the crafter's tastes.... oh , and maybe spawn a limited selection of item in the smith's inventory - in limited quantities, albeit - available to sell, as well (ok, so not ~only~ what players sell... sue me). These things can be of varying qualities (and may even include a few really good magical thing, though that be rare). And if the run out of stock, they run out until more items spawn in their inventory, or some player sells weapons to them.
*shug*
Just an idea....
Oh, and use of other metals in crafting weapons would be welcome anytime soon, now ;)
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Eh... Jawn... I don't know about that, as far as NPCs selling unwanted items. Limited, perhaps, but not the unwanted ones.
Simply because there's so many looted items, and not enough need. It would put us in nearly the same situation as having infinite weapons available. If someone goes off and farms the rogues in Oja, they'll get more weapons than they know what to do with, and with the near constant farming of those rogues, would lead to a massive glutton on the market. Maybe if prices would vary as more stock is added, that could be interesting, but also somewhat difficult to deal with.
In addition, would the 'special' weapons (like Broadsword of Seduction, or an Icy Dagger) be available for purchase if one was sold to an NPC? That could get complicated and hairy, if one has to scroll down several pages worth of Copper, Bronze, Stone, etc. weapons to find the one they may want (not to mention keeping tract of everything).
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This thread actually hits upon a point I made in another thread in the general discussion forum. To paraphrase a much earlier post in this thread by Xillix, a lot of different people seem upset about different aspects of the economy, often for apparently contradictory reasons. Some might say that the when some people say "too much" and others say "not enough," then the balance is just right and the people complaining are just the extremists. I don't think that this is the case. I think that the economy in Yliakum is so completely out of whack that a majority of people (or at least a large minority) are upset about it. Why is this? It's because the economy is centrally managed. Historically, centrally managed economies always perform poorly, even ones that have relatively good central management. The management of this economy is at the extremely poor end of the spectrum because the people running it are apparently oblivious to the "law of unintended consequences:" economies are very complex things, so when you change one thing, other things that seem completely unrelated will change as well, often in a negative way.
If I understand correctly, the designers are trying to set up the economy with certain goals in mind: primarily, they want to encourage player-player interaction and they want player-based market prices. They have made certain tweaks to the economy in order to achieve these goals. Unfortunately, from the number of unhappy people out there, these tweaks are having undesireable side effects, and are possibly even havng an adverse effect on RP. I have a proposal for a system that will fix most of these problems while still encouraging players to buy and sell from each other (instead of NPCs) and also make the market truly free and player-based:
1.) Have the server track all player-to-player trades and store them in a matrix, which would have a size roughly equal to [number of different types of items that can be traded]x[number of transactions that take place in a given period of time]. This is actually not all that big compared to some of the other data that is running around on a server like this. The size of the matrix can also be controlled by setting the "lookback period."
2.) At regular intervals (say, once a day), perform a least-squares fit reduction on the matrix to find average values for all goods in terms of tria. This will work well as long as a sufficient percentage of player-to-player transactions include at least some tria. This is actually very straightforward math: I can do a small matrix by hand in less than a minute. A big matrix requires computers, but this whole thing is running on computers, so no problem.
3.) Set all NPC store prices according to the average player-to-player prices from the least-squares fit reduction. Have NPCs sell at a slightly higher price than players (say, 120% or 130%) and buy at a slightly lower price (say, 80% or 90%). Remove the stock controls on the number of items an NPC can sell, but restrict NPCs to only selling mundane items, so that the only place to buy high-quality items is from other players. Players seeking to buy mundane items will have a choice: if they are in a hurry but don't care about price, they can buy from NPCs. If they are low on cash but have plenty of time to find a seller, they can buy from other players. Players selling their goods can do the same. This will give Yliakum a true, player-based, free-market economy. If you still feel that too many people are doing business with NPCs, increase the price margin between NPC prices and market prices, which will provide more incentive for players to do business with each other.
4.) In the tutorial, designate a location in each city as "the market" and encourage newbs to go there to buy and sell gear. Spread the word to existing players, as well. The central plaza in Hydlaa would be a great place, and you could even set up sign-posts designating areas for different types of goods.
4.) In the future, use supply and demand if you want to effect prices. Want iron to be more expensive? Make it harder to mine, thus decreasing supply. Or, require more iron to go into the production of popular items, thus increasing demand. Either will make iron more expensive. Be warned, though: either action will also make iron-based items more expensive. Want to make iron cheaper without changing the price of iron-based items? Make iron easier to mine but require more to go into the production of items.
5.) As long as most prices are set by the free market, you can control the prices of certain items directly. For example, gold and platinum don't have a whole lot of utility: they are mostly only good for selling to make money. This makes them, in essence, a form of currency themselves. You can control their prices through the NPC prices: want gold to be worth 250 tria per lump? Have NPCs buy unlimited quantities at 245 tria per lump and sell unlimited quantities at 255 tria per lump. If you do this to commodities with utility, however, your price will cascade through the rest of the economy: if you set the price of iron hard and fast in this way, items made from iron will adjust their prices accordingly.
6.) Make different methods of money-earning relatively equal in output. Right now, even players who aren't really interested in mining do it anyway because it is by far the best way to make money. This certainly does not encourage the "individuality" that the developoers claim to desire. If you have taken the first five steps above, you can use fixed-price commodities to help maintain this balance. For example, adjust the difficulty of mining gold and platinum so that mining a lump of gold or platinum should take about the same amount of time as any other activity that would produce the same profit. In other words, if a lump of gold is worth 250 tria and the hide of a particular creature is worth 55 tria, mining one lump of gold should take about the same amount of time as killing four or five of that particular creature. In this way, each player can choose his own method of making money without putting himself at a disadvantage because all means of making money will produce roughly equal profit for a given amount of time invested.
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Simply because there's so many looted items, and not enough need. It would put us in nearly the same situation as having infinite weapons available. If someone goes off and farms the rogues in Oja, they'll get more weapons than they know what to do with, and with the near constant farming of those rogues, would lead to a massive glutton on the market.
Well that's exactly how it should work. If there is a massive glut on the market the prices would drop so low as to make farming the rogues not worth it. People could then go off and hunt animals for body parts and furs.
In addition, would the 'special' weapons (like Broadsword of Seduction, or an Icy Dagger) be available for purchase if one was sold to an NPC? That could get complicated and hairy, if one has to scroll down several pages worth of Copper, Bronze, Stone, etc. weapons to find the one they may want (not to mention keeping tract of everything).
Should special and magical weapons be in the same category as standard weapons anyway? Also wouldn't it be more likely that a blacksmith wouldn't stock these sorts of weapons, they would only be sold by a specialist arms dealer not an ordinary blacksmith.
However all arguments of balancing aside, the economy of Yliakum us simply not large and diverse enough to support most of these ideas, for an economy to naturally balance itself there has to be enough range of money earning trades and spending opportunites to provide a good feedback system, trying to create a feedback loop on a system with only one or two inputs will naturally result in wild oscillations. Again it's just another sign of a game in Beta development, give the devs a chance to implement a few more strands to the economy before worrying to much about balance
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However all arguments of balancing aside, the economy of Yliakum us simply not large and diverse enough to support most of these ideas, for an economy to naturally balance itself there has to be enough range of money earning trades and spending opportunites to provide a good feedback system, trying to create a feedback loop on a system with only one or two inputs will naturally result in wild oscillations. Again it's just another sign of a game in Beta development, give the devs a chance to implement a few more strands to the economy before worrying to much about balance
I happen to be an engineer, and systems happen to be my specialty: controlling them, predicting their responses to stimuli, adjusting their responses to meet desired specifications, measuring and adjusting stability, etc. Using a system like the one I proposed for setting NPC prices based upon player market prices would not result in "wild oscillations." In fact, having the NPC prices bracket market prices (NPCs buy low and sell high) would have a dampening effect on changes in market prices (which could be undesirable in some situations, but would be a good thing most of the time).
Upon first implementing such a system, some interesting things would happen to the prices for some commodities. If a particular commodity already has a pretty consistent price in player-player prices, it will stay that way. However, imagine a commodity where one group of people are buying and selling it to each other for a relatively low price while another, separate group of people are buying and selling it to each other for a relatively high price, with the two groups being isolated for one reason or another. Least-squares-fit will produce an average price that is in between the two old prices but nowhere close to either. However, the fact that NPCs are buying and selling at the average price will slowly bring the two groups into line with each other. In effect, this system bridges the gaps between small pocket economies and ties them into one big economy.
There is one place where this system will break down: if particular commodities are mostly bought from and sold to NPCs, with few changing hands between players, the commodity won't be well enough represented in the matrix for the least-squares-fit to produce a meaningful price. An example of this would be weapons farmed from rogues: nobody wants to buy them, so farmers dump them on NPCs. There are, however, ways to deal with this relatively minor problem, some of which would have the added benefit of removing the incentive to collect weapons from dead rogues.
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These suggestions sound really interesting.
perhaps a way to further stabilise the system is to allow the least-squares matrix to operate on a regional scale, i.e. Harnquist charges and sells differently based on the prevalence of certain items in Hydlaa, but npc's elsewhere (e.g. Trasok) would charge differently because some items are more common in Ojaveda (e.g. shortswords looted from rogues should be cheaper in oja than in Hydlaa).
Once again, though, I feel that part of this could be addressed by letting persistent items circulate among mobs, too - especially rogues should enjoy looting...? so perhaps spawn rogues with a standard, low-value weapon like a knife, but allow them to pick up new ones, and perhaps even to increase in power if they survive successive attacks by PC's. the way people speak of farming mobs suggests that victory is generally taken for granted - perhaps our rogues should be a little rougher around the edges, and perhaps even fight as teams?
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Worst idea ever? Can't say I see that... and definitely don't see it as dicouraging RP.
I think Zwenze hits it on the head... ask around. Nor is that a particularly new idea. Only one of my characters ever bought his first weapon, and that turned out to be the least preferrable option. Every other character I've created has a weapon given to them by someone who got tired of laughing as I spent 20 mins wrestling a rat into submission. Usually it was prefixed weapon they had looted, and it had better stats than the stock weapons from the blacksmith. And in the meantime, I met someone new, learned a few things and enjoyed a little RP.
And it also taught me to respect noobs as I progressed. So if you run into me in-game and look a little ragged due to rat-wrestling, don't be at all surprised if I 'accidentally' drop a dagger or sword somewhere nearby...
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Worst idea ever? Can't say I see that... and definitely don't see it as dicouraging RP.
I think Zwenze hits it on the head... ask around. Nor is that a particularly new idea. Only one of my characters ever bought his first weapon, and that turned out to be the least preferrable option. Every other character I've created has a weapon given to them by someone who got tired of laughing as I spent 20 mins wrestling a rat into submission. ...
Yeah, i gave away my first low quality weapons crafted by me in the sewers. They worthed nothing, but the ones who received them found them quite useful.
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Well there will be no flaming.
Remember every player will begin with the weapon of their choice for going through the tutorial.
Crafters who are not as good will certainly be charging less over time and the economy will adjust.
Most of the arguments forwarded lack any consideration for the crafters, let's hear from them.
That is only true for the first character a player generates. Additional characters get nothing. No tria, no weapons. There is no tutorial for characters other than the first.... Although the prompts for the tutorial were there, the NPC's in question weren't and I was dumped right into East Hydlaa. Maybe it was a bug?
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Maybe it was a bug?
Yes. Bug/glitch.
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The bug is still getting the messages, not skipping the tutorial, as I understand it. Still there is plenty of free money if you know where to look, herbs just sitting on the ground.
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The bug is still getting the messages, not skipping the tutorial, as I understand it. Still there is plenty of free money if you know where to look, herbs just sitting on the ground.
Character slots 2, 3, and 4 on the account will skip the tutorial and still get the pop-up boxes pending that character 1 is outside of the tutorial.
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The bug is still getting the messages, not skipping the tutorial, as I understand it. Still there is plenty of free money if you know where to look, herbs just sitting on the ground.
Yep, if only one knew where to look. ??? How do I know if stuff is just sitting on the ground to be picked up or someone is coming back to get it? Oh well, I'm off and running now.
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The bug (http://www.hydlaa.com/flyspray_upgrade/index.php?do=details&task_id=1171) is that the popup messages for the extra characters created after the first completes the tutorial still refer to the tutorial events and npcs even though you are in Yliakum proper. It appears to be unfixed at this time.
If you wander around in the countryside you are quite likely to them on the ground. They tend to be in out of the way places completely in the open, so start exploring. If nobody is around they are all yours. Even if the is someone else they are yours if you pick them first unless the other person has dropped them and not moved off.
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I was going to make a htread zbout it - but it's already been done so -
When the populatipn of planeshift said "we want a new way to make money" what we meant was
"want the OPTION of a new way to make money".
We do not want to be forced to mine, smith and in some eyes waste time on something we do not want to do.
Nowerdays i cannot find any weapons. I don't really care if the weapon I buy from an npc smithy are crap and have a qwuality of 50 or whatever. What I want is to have the choice to buy a new wepaon when mine breaks, and I cannot repair it anyway cause my repair skill is lame.
I would like the option to play the game in a way it suits me. My character is not an entrepenuer, and he is not a smithy. Right now 99% of the population are smithies because you can't do anything if you don't smith. I do not want to be forced to do somthing I don't want to do. SO I end up killing alot mercenaries, except the last tme I checked the mercenary in the colleseum was not there anymore. So I have no choice but to wade through a stupid amount of quests that I do not want to do in order to gain the ability to make an axe. maybe later on my character will take up a bit of smithing, maybe he will want to change his track a bit. But for now he is quite happy on the murderous track he is on.
I am all for the choice to smith. I am all for players who want to smith. I am not for the developers bludgeoning me over the head with their quality three-hundred hammers and yelling at me: "YOU SMITH NOW!"
No sir, Smith is not my name - you have got the wrong guy....
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Well, with so many player smiths out there you are free to ask one to make or to repair a weapon. And I think that was the purpose of of removing the weapons from the NPCs. But in general I aggree with Ichaas. One should be able to buy and repair the basic weapons from/by a NPC. And the amount of miners and smiths (or should I say jack-of-all-trades?) is way too high at the moment for my taste.
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Remember every player will begin with the weapon of their choice for going through the tutorial.
Just not on their alts...I can kind of see why, but it is slightly obnoxious when you need an alt for whatever reason (an IC plotline in my case, so not too important for him to have a weapon), and they start out with zilch.
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I've made a suggestion that could be helpful here (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=32472.0),
that would solve many of the points raised in this thread...
:)
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I question why master smiths such as 'Trasok and others' would be making 'common' cheap weapons in the first place when they could be making high quality items for a premium price. You know, sort of like players do.
A smith's work is his calling card and advertisement. No self-respecting smith would make and sell less than his best. I think it was a mistake to have the smiths sell (or buy) sub-par items in the first place, and this starts to correct that.
Wouldn't a 'Master Smith' such as Trasok in Ojaveda or Harnquist in Hydlaa have apprentices and journeymen learning the craft or the trade in service to the Master?
And wouldn't the items produced by these apprentices and journeymen, be crafted from raw materials supplied by that Master, so that he, at his discretion could make these items available through his shop, at prices in keeping with the level of quality reached by such apprentices and journeymen?
The Master of course could sell his top quality crafted items at prices appropriate -or even, by individual private commission!
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Frankly I love the idea of limiting weapons quantity in merchants stock because it creates more work and income for blacksmiths and miners. Its a great way to stimulate the player economy.
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Frankly I love the idea of limiting weapons quantity in merchants stock because it creates more work and income for blacksmiths and miners. Its a great way to stimulate the player economy.
Yeah, it would be great ... if there were enough player smiths online 24/7 with reasonable prices. That is a point that is often not considered.
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Looks like there is room for a rogue/gladiator/thug/etc. harvester to sell all those mundane weapons. Maybe next time I do I will see if any of the merchants are buying non-crafted weapons instead of just selling out to npcs.
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There now follows something of a rant, but all very valid points, so please bear with me, and apologies in advance if my writing is a bit all-over-the-place.
New players need a way to make signficant amounts of tria more easily. Crafters need an easier way to sell and to find buyers for their wares.
The game mechanics, are contributing to a huge problem here. New and nearly-new characters can't possibly afford to buy crafted weapons, and crafters can't afford to slash prices, even on "low" quality (Q100-200) items. It takes way too much time and tria to create a weapon.
It takes even more time if you work your own ores into steel, or even more tria if you purchase readymade steel from a metallurgist.
The crafter price needs to be high as a result of all the time and work involved. The npc buying price is quite frankly a joke. 167 tria for a crafted sabre? You must be having a laugh.. that just ain't gonna happen.
The only way somebody can actually afford to learn crafting is through developing a higher paying skill such as mining. Whoops, there goes another obscene amount of time, because it takes bloody ages to actually mine any significant amount of paying metal, in this case gold or
platinum, because all other metals are prettymuch worthless as for-sale items.
I find the dev's disregard for player's time in this matter to be shocking. It gets worse however. The dev's don't seem to recognise this as a problem, and there are actually certified idiots around who think the current situation is acceptable.
The current game mechanics are unreasonable, and very damaging to roleplay, and indeed to the game as a whole. How many players have been lost, not because of bugs, but because it is too time consuming to play the game, to make tria and develop your character.
I believe that there are tens (hundreds?) of thousands of inactive characters who have had no choice but to leave the game, not because of bugs, but because of the broken mechanics and excessive demands on RL time. I also believe that this number is not likely to stop growing any time soon.
RP should be encouraged, but for good RP to develop, the game needs players to stick around. As things stand at the moment, there is only a small hard-core of players who can afford to spend the kind of RL time that is required by PS presently.
XW
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propose solutions.
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I propose that the players stop expecting too much.
Dare I say it, I propose a complete character wipe so that the early game problems become blatantly apparent and the upper level problems get a respite from consideration.
I further propose that subsequent to the wipe a complete set of logs are taken to figure out how people get to wherever they get to.
Lastly I propose that after three months the old characters get folded back into the database by player request. I see this working thus: All characters are eliminated from the database but accounts are kept. During the three month trial all 4 characters per account can be created. At the end of the three months you login to your account and then must choose which 4 of the possible 8 characters to keep before you can enter Yliakum. If at that time you choose to keep none that is entirely your business.
Because this game is alpha-beta-techdemo there is nothing stopping this from happening. I really believe the information that this process can provide would be well worth whatever disgruntlement it causes.
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As much as I hate to say it for certain personal reasons... I think Prolix actually has a brilliant solution. Of course, it won't expose all the problems, because a large part of the frustration for new players is not in necessarily the 'doing', but finding out what to do and how to do it (that is another conversation entirely, however). However, knocking everyone down to beginner status again, you will suddenly hear great clamors over problems newbies face, instead of the occasional poorly-communicated complaint from someone no one knows (which, let's face it, it is human nature to partially 'ignore' those you don't know as well.)
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I just started a new character after an absence of the game (there's some neat new stuff!) and I've noticed a bunch of things that I don't know if I would have noticed before. A wipe might be very illuminating. Or at the very least, maybe a voluntary thing where a number of players start new characters from the ground up, and turn over their logs to the staff after a certain period of time? I think it might expose a number of problems that are getting ignored because the people running into them don't know how to get their complaints heard.
I can already say one thing I've noticed with a new account that I would desperately like changed, and that's the unavailability of a basic dagger for sale by an NPC. I rolled a character with the intention of making her a knife fighter, but didn't factor in that I wouldn't be able to buy one from Harnquist or somebody, so now I'm faced with either leveling up enough in something else to kill a mob to get one (which is problematic in and of itself, since I try very hard to play by my stats and the character simply doesn't have the build to logically be chucking swords around), or continuing the hunt to find a PC crafter who sells basic weapons who's not busy with something else and is willing to do a little business, which is amazingly difficult to do if you're a new kid in town! X-/
I'm willing to make lemonade out of the lemon, so I've had some fun ICly with her hunt, but I admit it: it's starting to get very frustrating, and I guess I do feel like it's an unnecessary and inconsiderate hassle.
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Daggers have been traditionally difficult to acquire in the game for a long time they were only available as a drop. Your two best bets are hanging around the arena smith with a sign saying "I need a dagger" or finding a rich dilettante smith near one of the practical smithies who will give you one of kras practice daggers. You do not need a quality 300 dagger and that is about all the professional smiths make but someone just learning often has a spare dagger that is better than 'store bought.'
The problem I find with starting a new character now is that it is nearly impossible not to use your others to help it advance. I can't do it, at any rate. The temptation is too great. This is one of the main reasons I have long advocated starting from scratch, this temporary dream sequence is a new wrinkle I have added to make it more palatable. I doubt it will be adopted because there will be extra work involved in setting it up which will not be useful for the final product.