PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ahrimann on March 20, 2008, 03:02:24 pm
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Has anyone ever discussed or considered that in a place like Yliakum some culture may have developed that considers the Crystal or the Azure Sun itself as a "deity", a "religion" or an object of "worship"? Think of the Egyptians and "Ra" or "Amun-Ra", for example.
Neither "Laanx" nor "Talad" were powerful enough to create new beings by themselves, they needed a ritual and the Crystal. It was even powerful enough to injure and significantly change a "deity". Does this mean that such a Crystal is always needed to create a new race or is it any powerful magical object, which in this case just happened to be the Crystal?
Whether you actually argue that the Crystal is "alive" or just a "tool" for magic, it may be irrelevant to some inhabitants of Yliakum. To them, the Crystal is a powerful source of magic, energy, light, life (and death in some cases). If some people were to worship the Crystal, how would they be perceived in Yliakum? Would they be perceived as heretics, neutrals, good, evil etc? What kind of people would choose a religion based around the Crystal? Why would they choose it as opposed to any other choice? Do majority of the inhabitants believe in the ability of "Laanx" to tap the Crystal's magical power directly, hence being closer to it than any other "deity"?
An additional question: Is the Crystal a source of Mana in Yliakum or is Mana a force within each magic practitioner (I know the general definition of Mana), independent of the Crystal? Or both?
Note that I'm not necessarily suggesting that it should suddenly be an option during character creation and in-game experience. It's just a consequence of reading the settings and wondering how the Yliakum inhabitants would perceive it. Maybe this can spark an interesting discussion? Just keep in mind that I'm not trying to convince you one way or another, only asking you to think and post your thoughts...
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Funny. Whom would you worship, the god that created you/guided your race or a stone? Of course, the stone.
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Funny. Whom would you worship, the god that created you/guided your race or a stone? Of course, the stone.
According to PlaneShift settings, the "god" alone did not create you, the Crystal or the "stone" did, after the ritual... :)
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Also, according to the History stuff on the main page, neither Laanx nor Talad actually did any guiding, Vodúl was the one who created the portals.
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Though your characters don't know that.
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Well, the book "Song of Lemurs" (or something similar) describes Lemurs witnessing the creation of Kran and the "accident" that injured Laanx, so the inhabitants know the Crystal's abilities. They also know that everyone except Lemurs and Kran came through the portals, even if they don't know who created the portals. However, their ancestors would at least remember their original deities and religions. Question is, did their "gods" need a similar Crystal or a magical object to create them or not?
Come to think of it, neither Laanx nor Talad knew the ritual for life creation and only "mimicked" what Vodul taught Laanx, unsuccessfully in Talad's case. Did Vodul come up with the ritual or did someone else? Who was the original creator of the ritual in PlaneShift, some ancient "god" who did a lot of "trial and error"? :)
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Heh, I'd like to see what Xillix says on this topic. I would be surprised if there were cults that worshiped the crystal. Xil! Jera! Rizin! Get over here :P
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Whom would you worship, the god that created you/guided your race or a stone? Of course, the stone.
In RL there are/were religions were the sun (the crystal equivalent) was the center of religions. Though some of them thought of the sun as a representation for a god, which is somewhat the same for me. The "stone" can be seen, a creator would be imagination. Although Talad is coming to Yliakum from time to time as I heard..
Nothing wrong for me with a "simple" religion for the crystal itself.
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I know a guy who worships spatulas and prays to dishwashers. So, I guess it's possible there are some strange religions out there in Yliakum...
;D
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In my opinion it could be possible that some individuals praise the crystal for it's energy.
As stated in the history chapter of the main page, the crystal has already been there when Talad and Laanx arrived on this planet, that means neither of the deities created it. It's a powerful source of magic, gives light, warmth and energy, therefore I could imagine some people in yliakum praising the Crystal for those features.
Farmers would praise the crystal for the light and the warmth, mages would praise it for it's magical potential, probably...but making it a whole religion? I doubt that :)
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This one is shot down by settings!
Sry, the Lemur and Kran being the first inhabitants of Yliakum had an established culture that was favored by the gods.
A cult of the crystal is not a reasonable outcome of these dynamics.
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Xillix, what about the crazies? Why can't we make tiny little cults of, like, trepor worshipers?
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Xillix, what about the crazies? Why can't we make tiny little cults of, like, trepor worshipers?
Because thats silly :P
However, all that happened with the crystal was a long time before any of our characters lived...I'd say that we might not even be able to say we know how the gods created us, only that they did. At least thats what the mass population would think. If you want to worship trepors and shiny rocks that cause perma death stick to being full blown insane :P
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it personally doesn't make sense how coming up with new religions is against the settings. People think differently, and nobody has the same exact beliefs on every single little issue. Eventually people that do have common beliefs to each other, but different from the norm for their own cults or religions. Take for example scientology as a OOC example. Even wackos have the right to believe what they wish, and in the laws of hydlaa, i'm pretty sure there is freedom of religion. Therefore, how can it possibly be that over such a long time people start to no believe in the gods of Laanx and Talad especially since they left the realm of Yliakum [which is why we can choose Atheism as a religion at character creation]? From this people would start looking towards things they see, or know to exist, such as the Azure Sun/crystal. Remember the Cult of the Dark Crystal that a group of players formed and was well played while it lasted imho? According to the settings team, it was against the settings.
So the question then becomes: Do the people of Yliakum have the capability to think for themselves, outside of the box, and to question their surroundings, especially when the lore of laanx and talad is so old and has the potential, in the eyes of the inhabitants of yliakum, to have been stretched or altered as time went on? Or does everyone either praise talad, laanx, or dakkru [in which case Atheism should be taken out of the settings].
Just from personal observations from other such things: It seems at times the settings team/devs/Talad want to be able to control everyone's actions to the point where certain things like being able to question one's own reality and life cannot be asked. Personally, going with this further, I believe that it would be acceptable for a large group of players to create their own government and country outside the octarchy if they desire, just like how real countries were formed, however this was shot down on a couple accounts from what I hear.
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Lol, you don't worship the gods we have!!!
It should be enough, everyone perpetually wants to run about declaring themselves the King of France!
I say no, embody the settings we have please.
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That's really not a valid reason why not to have them...
Since it isn't your idea, it isn't accepted? Maybe we don't want to worship some worship-craving guy with a deformed face, a jealous guy that foolishly released power that he had no idea how to control, some nature-loving tree-girl, or a grim reaper god? I'm sure that people in real life, since they didn't like other religions, formed their own. Is it such a bad thing, such a sin against settings, to worship something else?
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shorty13: The octarchy is in control :) You cannot form a separate entity outside the octarchy and expect it to just slide by them. Do you really think to hear "Oh yeah, sure - go right ahead. We totally don't mind a competing government alongside ours"? Moreover, you simply don't have anywhere near the number of players to make a real impact in a mutiny or rebellion (that is in proportion to the total population of Yliakum). Try to grab 200-300 people and form a separate government within one of our real life major countries. You'll get laughed at, or worse if you are perceived as a serious threat to the established peace of the land.
It just makes no sense.
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Go worship a rock, I don't police in game.
I am telling you categorically that settings will not support this belief.
Obviously, whenever I speak "I am ruining roleplay." So have a ball.
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/me gasps.
Suno's going to hell. :o
I don't see why it's against the settings to have unofficial religions. That's just a total restriction on creativity. I mean, like, that guy I know worships spatulas, but it's not an official religion. And he can do it all he wants, even if spatulas aren't holy. But it's not like the government's going to keep him from worshiping spatulas, and there's no consequence for it, unless he's running for president or something.
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Why is their such a draw to unofficial religions?
Why not use the areas and roleplay props we have given you?
Alas, why do I try?
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Why is their such a draw to unofficial religions?
Because it's non-conformist.
Why not use the areas and roleplay props we have given you?
Because it's punk.
Alas, why do I try?
Rage against the machine!
Really though, are you saying we can't have unofficial religions?
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You people are so weird. You don't want a fully fleshed out settings you want to create your own. I swear, half of you should just go write a book :P
I can see crystal cults being around. I see Xil's point and can see a bunch of reasons for there not to be a crystal cult (Everything unknown can be chalked up to the current gods so there's no real reason to make the crystal into a god). But there'll always be crazies :P
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That's really not a valid reason why not to have them...
Since it isn't your idea, it isn't accepted? Maybe we don't want to worship some worship-craving guy with a deformed face, a jealous guy that foolishly released power that he had no idea how to control, some nature-loving tree-girl, or a grim reaper god? I'm sure that people in real life, since they didn't like other religions, formed their own. Is it such a bad thing, such a sin against settings, to worship something else?
I have already given valid reasons why not to have them.
I have adopted many ideas from the community when the settings team and Talad thought they were good ones.
This is not a good idea imo.
Your issues with the current gods are fine (although I find you characterizations reductive and somewhat insulting) and . . .
it is not a sin, just against the settings, not valid RP, no features will issue from this worship.
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The point is this: you can have your own crazy religion, and then ten more players have their own crazy religions, and then everyone and their walrus follows their own special gods, and Settings is sitting back going "What are we doing here again..?" :)
By all means, go nuts. But that kind of defeats the purpose of playing in a world that already has things for you to... well, play with.
Everyone wants to be a special snowflake.
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I see what you are saying, karyuu, however even the settings team cannot force people to think a certain way. While many people to worship Laanx and Talad, It is not out of the realm of possibilities that people do not like these deities and would rather give thanks to another idea, object, person that they believe has helped guide them more in their lifetime than the popular deities. This however is only true IF the settings team does not put down a rule that says "Everyone in Yliakum has always, still does, and forever will worship these deities or none at all. No one will ever think of praising anything or anyone else." However, that would just be unfortunate, forcing even IG hydlaans to think how you wish. Not to mention if this were true there would certainly be several more temples around and the winch, being the scientific depot it seems to be, would not be so advanced because people everything would then be centered around a theocratic [is that a word?] way of thinking.
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Perhaps it has something to do with people not liking the current "deity" choices and not finding them interesting or fun?
The difference between everyone wanting to create their own non-official religion, worshiping spatulas and the Crystal is that the Crystal is already an integral part of the settings, not a newly created non-official lore. It's a central piece, around which everything revolves in Yliakum. People need it, the current lesser PlaneShift "gods" need it too.
I wouldn't expect any religion to just "slide by" anything. But why should it stop anyone? Black Flame is already outlawed. Doesn't it already partially stand for insanity (according to the description)? If the followers are laughed at, they can laugh back. If someone proposes something that doesn't sit well with some bloated "octarchy", they immediately get labeled as "crazies"? The crazier the better then!
And Raa, the real question is - are those magic spatulas? If so, your friend might be onto something. ;)
I'm also wondering about something from the official settings on the web site:
They were unaware of a huge maze of tunnels present in the crust of the world, later called the Stone Labyrinths, where other creatures were already lurking in the dark.
Something had to have created those creatures. Someone or something had to have built the Stone Labyrinths, which implies a higher intelligence than simple animals.
After many generations of the Lemur had passed, Laanx wandered into a cave that was hundreds of times bigger than the one he created, where beings without a name dwelt.
What are those "beings without a name"? Obviously, neither Laanx nor Talad created them but someone or something did. Is this referring to a humanoid race of some sort? Something had to support their life too. The "cave" seems to be referring to a place, which later hosts the ten towns of Kadaikos.
Also...
Therefore, they used their powers to enlarge the niche and created the huge cave comprised of eight levels.
Was the "niche" even big enough to host a previous civilization? Because the inhabitants come across some ancient ruins in PlaneShift with structures built by a previous civilization.
Was the previous civilization without a "deity"? Laanx and Talad weren't there, so that leaves... Xiosia, Dakkru, possibly Black Flame (unless it's really a part of Laanx) and... the Crystal! The ruins don't look particularly menacing to me... Were they all Xiosia worshiping hippies?
Something to think about... :)
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Perhaps it has something to do with people not liking the current "deity" choices and not finding them interesting or fun?
Or perhaps it's because we like to play crazies every once in a while. Can be quite fun.
Was the previous civilization without a "deity"? Laanx and Talad weren't there, so that leaves... Xiosia, Dakkru, possibly Black Flame (unless it's really a part of Laanx) and... the Crystal!
Only the Crystal was around back then. Xiosia just recently announced herself, Dakkru's first appearance in the Death Realm was recorded so that means it wasn't that long ago, and the Black Flame was created by the most recent civilization, I think... Probably wrong about the Black Flame thing.
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Or perhaps it's because we like to play crazies every once in a while. Can be quite fun.
Or perhaps all the time because "normal" is boring. ;)
Black Flame was created by the most recent civilization, I think... Probably wrong about the Black Flame thing.
From the discussion mentioned in "Dakkru's Will" thread, it seems that Black Flame either stands for insanity, suicide or both. I guess that makes the most recent civilization "crazies"...
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As Xillix has said before, the RP is the responsibility of the Players.
Nurahk, for one, will quite happily laugh at any fool worshiping the Azure Sun. And I'm sure he's not alone.
There will be no support for your cult though. Settings won't actively stop you (I imagine) but, they will not exactly encourage you either.
Either way, Suno, your post is useless and offensive. Grow - Up.
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Silly, silly people ... you come here making a thread asking whether a religion could be valid. Note: key word is religion. Not cult, not band of crazies, no .. a commonly accepted organised thing called religion.
Then when the settings gives you an answer, you refuse to hear it and just go on doing your own thing anyway. Donari's post alone should be enough ... who goes to worship a piece of inanimate material when they have actual deities? I don't thank batteries because they give my TV remote power, I thank the person that created the batteries, the remote and the TV. :P
You people should drop your "I can do what I want" attitude or go write a book like Waylander said. So much is being created for us to discover and play with but what I see most people doing? They avoid it as much as possible and make up their own settings, in which they obviously have the answers and control they want. Now I can understand that, it's easier to create your own story than it is to play a role in the story of someone else. But if everyone goes to create their own stories, then eventually we're all playing past eachother, instead of with eachother. Self-made stories might be fun for you but they're definitely not always fun for those who do stick to the official settings. ;)
It almost forces us to go out of settings ourselves or just ignore you lot. I don't want to do either.
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This one is shot down by settings!
(http://i29.tinypic.com/9aompy.jpg)
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LOL Earl
I feel bad cuz its kinda offensive...but its so true and hilarious i was dying on my floor laughing when i saw that pic.
@Zan read all the posts here. Someone made a very good point and showed that Laanx and Talad did NOT create everything!
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:'(
i hadn't even posted here..... :-\
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:'(
i hadn't even posted here..... :-\
Yes but you're a mod, a very good one, how could I leave you out of shooting down lame threads?
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Worshipping any 'god' besides Talad, Laanx, Dakkru, or Xiosia is, by official Octarchal Law, illegal. Go ahead and worship something else, but do not complain if your character gets persecuted. If I had my way, DMs would have full power to wander in as a guard and arrest any fool who tried this.
/me goes back to pushing for a prison map.
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What's a DM?
:-[
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Dungeon master.
D&D terminology.
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Drunken Master -- Kung Fu term (applied to most of the D&D DM's too)
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District Manager, Corporate term.
Listbard I am glad you understand the demeanor I approach the forums and Irc with. \\o//
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LOL Earl
I feel bad cuz its kinda offensive...but its so true and hilarious i was dying on my floor laughing when i saw that pic.
@Zan read all the posts here. Someone made a very good point and showed that Laanx and Talad did NOT create everything!
The point that everyone has been trying to make here is that you as a player know that, but your character doesn't! So Zan's statements are valid.
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Just curious. We worship gods. We have books but we DON'T write down what happened??
I mean Talad in the stories interacts with the races in Yliakum and he didn't explain who he was and some of the basics? And people worshipping Talad didn't find the basics important enough to write it down? The stories say the kran know they are created by Talad but don't think that is important?
I mean come on even the bible has had changes over the 2000 years it has been around but things like the creationtale are pretty much the same.
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I think settings is working very hard to write down more history of the gods in book form.
Either way, I'll repeat myself.
Talad created the Kran. He used energy from the Azure Sun to do so, just like we use fire to cook our food. Then who do we praise for the good food? The cook or the fire?
Shorty, Talad and Laanx did not create everything but the Crystal created nothing, it only serves as a source of energy. ;) Yliakum's society is advanced enough to know what the Crystal is and it has real gods that are much more suited for worship. In that context it doesn't make sense to worship an inanimate object like a bunch of ignorant cavepeople.
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hmm well back on topic. I have to agree with Zan.
There are real gods there. Olympian in style so I am really leaning to giving tribute to several gods chosing one depending on the situation. Worshipping the crystal like people worshipped the sun once doesn't really seem to fit in with that.
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Well... If we've got a crazy character, can he or she (maybe it) worship something ridiculous?
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Raa, being as you are a somewhat crazy player, I expect no less from your characters.
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Crazy people are crazy so they do things that one normally wouldn't do obviously
The question here is if someone should take it serious. If you could form a cult or guild or if you can play someone sane that seriously worships the crystal. The answer found in this thread is No it doesn't fit in with the setting. Not only becuase the settings team says so, but becuase logic dictates that if there are real gods flying around that people aren't going to think innate objects are gods.