PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ahrimann on March 22, 2008, 07:04:03 am
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Do you (developers) ever feel like you bit off more than you could chew? Ever feel like the races in PS are redundant?
The traditional lot: Humans, Elves and Dwarves.
Do you really need two different races under each category with hardly any difference in their stats and traits? They aren't warring factions or drastically different culturally. The Humans in PS don't have any special traits, with Xacha being slightly more inclined towards magic, which is possible for any humans individually. The Dwarves are, in fact, just different clans according to their description, with identical traits. The Dermorians seem to be a mix of traditional High or White Elves and Wood Elves. The Nolthrir initially seem to be inspired by Dark or Night Elves but they are not in conflict with Dermorians and are hardly different, with nearly identical traits (with some of Klyros thrown in). Did anyone notice that by comparison, Nolthrir seem to have the least background history, even though they're the oldest of the two? Dermorians escaped from Nomadic Knights, Nolthrir's past is a blank...
The additional lot: Lemurs, Kran, Diaboli, Enkidukai, Klyros and Ynnwn.
Most seem to be a class/profession turned race type. However, why is there Ynnwn? They aren't different enough from Diaboli and add yet another layer of redundancy (and work).
Every race requires a new and unique 3D model, unique clothing and armor and a lot of work overall. The less models you have to make, the more you can concentrate on customizing them. You're not a commercial team, remember? In fact, it's redundant even for a commercial team. Besides, different Humans, Elves and Dwarves can be inclined towards different things culturally without being a whole new race. They can be differentiated enough through clothing, armor, architecture etc.
Initially, Diaboli seemed like a very interesting race, with the possibility to be the PlaneShift's "Dark Elves" or "Undead" but they were ruined with the whole "inclined towards Xiosia" thing in a fruitless effort to make them "non-evil". Now they are just uninteresting instead.
The game touts a classless and levelless system but seems to try to compensate for it through races and runs into all sorts of problems.
Lemurs - traditional "magic users" or "casters"...
Kran - traditional "warriors"/"melee" characters...
Diaboli - traditional darker/chaotic oriented "casters" initially but now useless...
Enkidukai - traditional "rogues"/"thieves"...
Klyros - traditional "rangers"/"archers"... (because of the bonus in bows or bow making for growing up in a Klyros village)
Let's say for a moment that there is a Shadow Priest class in the game, who is primarily a magic user or a caster class. A Shadow Priest comes up to an NPC in search of a quest, the game does a check on your class and level and gives you a suitable for your character quest that is doable and challenging enough at your level that it won't send you to kill an Ulbernaut to get its heart at level 1, for example. Not to mention class-specific quest rewards. How does the game know what difficulty of quests to give to a player now? It doesn't because it's oblivious to such details. Certain quests have faction prerequisites, most do not.
NPCs could also give out specialized quests for different classes or have alternative means of completing a quest, suitable for your character. Right now, some quests do have alternative paths to take but most do not and cannot be discarded unless completed as intended. Often, there is no way to tell whether there are alternative paths or a suitable outcome for your character. A quest can start out fairly mundane but ends up giving you evil, chaos or thief faction points and vice versa. If some NPC has a menial task like buying a cake for them, it's likely that a Shadow Priest would not want to bother with it or have suitable paths as an option during the quest. Of course, no one knows if such a quest simply ends with buying a cake or has a branching path with something unexpected and suitable for your character. If it doesn't, your Shadow Priest just ends up getting "good" or "purchasing cakes" faction points. Does anyone see anything wrong with that? The game is, once again, oblivious to such details.
It may be possible to make an interesting system that doesn't have classes or levels but it doesn't seem to be working out for you very well at the moment.
Any thoughts on the races, classes and levels?
Is this going to end up in "complaints department" or locked because someone gets upset? :)
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Who cares. :P Devs aren't going to change it. They want to be creative, and so they are.
You can't classify people as "evil" or "good" if they're from a particular race, anyway... That's like saying all Muslims are terrorists or all white people are nerdy. ...Racist!
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Obviously, you do, since you replied. :P
Having redundant and traditional fantasy races with identical traits is wanting to be creative?
Ever heard of "Orcs" or "Uruk-hai" from J.R.R.Tolkien? Only a fool would assume an "Uruk-hai" can be "good" only to end up being a dead fool. :)
It's like saying that there are no evil or dark races in a fantasy. It's a fantasy, remember? Besides, "Muslims" are not a race.
...Uneducated!
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As an artist, I actually like having all that variety. I don't mind creating more race models, and all their related files. Luckily, players like that :) Besides, it seems like there is a lot you're leaving out of your racial analysis, whether by mistake or because you feel like the details aren't worthy enough of attention.
The question is, are you here to upset people, Ahrimann? Or is all the "This is going to end badly, isn't it" tags you leave all the time, simply a precaution against just that.
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Having redundant and traditional fantasy races with identical traits is wanting to be creative?
How is it redundant and traditional? I mean, sure, you have elves and dwarves, but they're different. The other races are pretty creative too. When the skins are finished and the models are fully customizable, you'll probably have a different onion.
Ever heard of "Orcs" or "Uruk-hai" from J.R.R.Tolkien? Only a fool would assume an "Uruk-hai" can be "good" only to end up being a dead fool.
Unfortunately that doesn't apply to the available races in Yliakum.
It's like saying that there are no evil or dark races in a fantasy. It's a fantasy, remember? Besides, "Muslims" are not a race.
...Uneducated!
Still wrong. None of the races are "evil" or "dark."
I never said Muslims were a race. I'm just making a point. :P
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I'm with Karyuu on this one. The races of this game have nothing to do with their stats or 'classes' they can be related to in my eyes. They're all about the phyisical traits and different cultural background to me. So I see no redundancy .. only more possibilities, more chapters to the story.
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Here is my question . . .
Redundant players?
We don't need a gadfly.
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As an artist, I actually like having all that variety. I don't mind creating more race models, and all their related files.
Well, seeing that some models for some races are still missing and not seeing that great diversity in existing models, I think Ahrimann has a point in mentioning redundant races. But as Karyuu doesn't mind in creating all this I'm really looking forward to see new skins and models in near future. :thumbup:
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If you think that is bad, look at RL. We are all human, no elves, no dwarves or any of that. But we consider ourselves as a species to be made up of many different races although most differences are superficial. :whistling:
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Enkidukai - traditional "rogues"/"thieves"...
Miaua puts disagreement.
Enkidukai - traditional "hunters"... (or something like that) I dont feel much of rogues in them.
And to topic...
I quess PS has pretty unique races.
Still better then regular human/elf/dwarf and on the other side..
..and on the other side still something, which one considers as 'normal' races :3
Miaua praises devs for bringing Enkis to this world. \\o//
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Ever feel like you're contradicting yourself?
Lemurs - traditional "magic users" or "casters"...
Kran - traditional "warriors"/"melee" characters...
Diaboli - traditional darker/chaotic oriented "casters" initially but now useless...
Enkidukai - traditional "rogues"/"thieves"...
Klyros - traditional "rangers"/"archers"... (because of the bonus in bows or bow making for growing up in a Klyros village)
A person in PS can be whatever they want, no matter the race. There is no stereotype as far as alignment because of what race you are. You said it yourself:
Besides, different Humans, Elves and Dwarves can be inclined towards different things culturally without being a whole new race. They can be differentiated enough through clothing, armor, architecture etc.
Perhaps the races seem to be so close to each other just because they use the same model. Perhaps it is because there will be more work done later when they can actually finish them. Later, more story and background will be added to fill in the blank spots. The truth is, those 'redundant' race's backgrounds aren't all that important because (at least for the moment) they don't exactly exist, other races are standing in for them.
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Ahrimann,
Lemurs - traditional "magic users" or "casters"...
If Raul Ursino starts barbering with spells, I'm running.
Kran - traditional "warriors"/"melee" characters...
Tyrus Beaut is a bard. I SUPPOSE you could melee with a lute or panflute, but it would ruin kras next gig.
Diaboli - traditional darker/chaotic oriented "casters" initially but now useless...
Martiana Zeth is a Winch engineer. A less "chaotic" mentality I am hard pressed to imagine.
Enkidukai - traditional "rogues"/"thieves"...
Brado is only a rogue if he starts watering down his ale.
Klyros - traditional "rangers"/"archers"... (because of the bonus in bows or bow making for growing up in a Klyros village)
A simple worker like Kelicha Anijiel would lose her job if she started randomly shooting arrows at the Winch ropes.
I am obviously being a bit glib here in the hopes of keeping the tone of this discourse light, but I hope you see my point. We try to avoid letting NPC race "pigeonhole" the NPCs into bland, predictable patterns, and we hope that the players will enjoy doing the same with their characters. That being said, each race will eventually have their own particular quirks and traits, which NPCs and players may embrace or shun as befits their backstories and sound reasoning. This is a growing game after all, and the histories of the various races will bloom over time. Cultural differences WILL evolve.
Starting stats & abilities in char creation are just that... a starting point. They are not meant to confine a character to a specific skillset.
There are no race wars now simply because the Octarchs stem any such social dissaray quite firmly.
There are no classes, so quests cannot be controlled in that manner. Factions will be one method used to shape what higher-level quests players can and cannot do, so choices in earlier quests WILL count. Once again, this is a work in progress and will need time to implement fully - WIP, you know. In the meantime, players can refuse any quest that they feel menial or against their char's personality. If a player dimisses a "menial" task and misses out on building a relationship that could be important later... well how may times have we done that in the real world - dismissed something small that could have been SO important?
Much care is being taken to provide alternate endings to all new higher-level quests. Yes, players may miss out on a groovy reward by following the ending appropriate for their char's personality, but being true to their chars will allow them to do OTHER quests that will result in OTHER rewards without compromising the personality they have worked so hard to build.
So... patience, love, and keep your eyes peeled ;)
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But as Karyuu doesn't mind in creating all this I'm really looking forward to see new skins and models in near future. :thumbup:
I live to serve ;)
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I don't think having redundant races does anything wrong, if the devs are up for it. The ones I consider redundant are just the dwarves though...
What I think makes the classes really indistinct is the fact that they all have the same ease in learning and the same max value. The only thing that's different between races is the initial value of stats.
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I think the more the merrier.And the dwarves are most likely differentiated like that because they would get violent if we didn't ditinct their clans.We don't want a dwarven uprising now do we.Personally i like the many races and i think that at this stage in any other game most stuff is redundant anyway.
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I live to serve ;)
I'll have a Rye and Coke please! Oh and with a side order of bipedal aardvark (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAMkxBtMr84)! Really that would be awesome, too bad there will be no new races. ;(
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Let's not forget that ps is free... I don't know about anyone else but I'm greatful for this. if I were paying by the hour or month I might feel entitled to complain about certain things. Given that this is free, complaining about stuff is kinda rude.
Regarding "redudnant races" ... I like the diversity - even if it is mostly visual. It would kinda suck if there were only one or two races - like say 70's style bearded human and perhaps say man with cell and briefcase - especially in a fantasy setting. Being that this is a "role playing game" the visual and descriptive differences in the characters are indeed significant even if there is no difference in stats.
It would be cool if there was more visual diversity in the appearance of characters... Ie more facial features, an option to give the char a permanent limp, hunch, dragged leg, a spazzy tard arm that moves on its own (lol), a wandering or crooked eye, a unique kind of walking pattern whatever.. ;)
My point isn't to turn this into a freak show but to get away from everyony looking so similar...
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Ditto.Its rude to complain. How dare they ! These people here ..Are amazing. GG.
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Reminding people that this game is free is sometimes necessary but it should never ever be an excuse for not listening to the players. And I think that the devs are aware of this. Call it complaints or call it (constructive) criticism, it is the feedback of the players.
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Agree that free is not an excuse for lack of something in the game. I will accept undermanned and underfunded though. ;)
I don't feel there is a problem with having redundant races... but I think the problem is calling them races. Call them clans or something else, and then the idea of using the same models again for different clans won't seem so out of place. By calling them races, we tend to think there needs to be a physical difference, but there doesn't need to be. Work on customizable textures and features for each model so that you can have different races within clans. Then you can build the history up behind each clan, getting exactly what you want.
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they are different races......they come from different worlds, etc... it's all in the settings.
there simply isn't all the different models yet.
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/me under lines and makes Neko's 'yet' look fat, then gives it a push, and adds an exclamation marker
Yet!